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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    Now you sound like you're getting into my age bracket :D .

    But seriously, didn't dimming the dash lights help reduce any eye strain? I'd think the contrast would be even more helpful at night. But that may just be my 57 yr old eyes. (I need glasses for close up but glasses distort everything more than a few feet away. Can't address a golf ball wearing glasses. :) )
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    I change my mind and say , it looks good exterior wise still not sold with the pontiact g6 interior. Honestly so sick of all black interiors, where is some originality at? The sonata might be radical in a way, but at least its out of the ordinary in a good way in my books.

    The accords interior is good, but its too black, where is some creativity ?? but i know honda can do better, man does the new acura rdx look good. i would never purchase any suv's , i just dun like driving that high up, but this car looks good on the inside and out.

    Getting back to topic, i personally like the sonatas interior best, it has a more european atmosphere and buttoned down look
  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    I could not make out the interior too well on the new Altima. The outside shots were fine, but the interior no good for my eyes. I don't like the all silver look of the interior of the Camry SE? from several posts before (or other makes that have that all silver look). I guess I like that all black look, but the Sonata's interior does not look bad at all.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Backy- are you serious? I remember when the Sonata came out, you too criticized the GLS cloth, why the change?

    What I said about the Sonata GLS' cloth in my review of that car (remember, it was a take-off on a prize fight, Accord vs. Sonata) was:

    You could say the Sonata threw in the towel in this round, folks, [SIDE NOTE: that was an attempt at humor] with the terrycloth-like surface in its light gray interior. But the material is comfortable and grippy. Some might prefer the smoother cloth of the GL model.

    I wouldn't call that being too critical. If you don't like a surface that feels a little like terrycloth, then of course you won't like it. I am OK with it. As I said, it is comfortable and grippy.

    BTW, here is what I said about the Accord's (EX) cloth interior in the same review:

    The Accord is dressed in black mouse fur, with colored flecks--which reminds this reporter of the black cloth in the previous-generation base Sonata.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    So, you've "tested" an 07 Camry on 3 occasions, and this qualifies you as having spent "an extended" period of time in the vehicle? Doesnt make much sense...

    In terms of the Accord, no, I do not own one, but I have taken trips in the vehicle, from PA to Maine, for example, which do represent "extended" periods of time.

    I am fine with your opinion, what I am not fine with is double standards of measurement regarding what constitutes a valid opinion. It seems to me a very liberal interpretation of the term "extended period" of time if all you've had is three test drives.

    And, you've still failed to present the posts on the 2007 Camry thread which criticize the Camry LE cloth material.

    ~alpha
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Comfortable and grippy would also apply to the cloth seats in the current Altima. This does not mean they are of impressive material or quality.

    The question is... do you prefer th smoother, (and in my opinion, seemingly more upscale cloth) of the GL? You are "OK" with the Sonata GLS cloth... what does this mean? In comparison to the Accord you also tested... sure, it reminds you of the prev. gen Sonata... but is that a good or a bad thing?

    ~alpha
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yes, my dash lights are set on about 4 dots out of 6 intensity. I turned dad's down what i think are a little dimmer (there are no detents in his 05). No biggie, though!
  • saxe10595saxe10595 Member Posts: 35
    I have 2003 Camry(02-06) and 2005(03-06)Accord. I can tell you that both have their good and bad points- Camry is more comfortable seating overall but accord seating for driver is more comfortable, dash is more beautiful and nicely designed in accord-better quality material and looks upscale with easily accessebile controls, cloth is better in Camry quality and material wise and Accord's cloth looks better but is thin. Now new Camry(2007) looks better than old Camy(02-06) and in few things may be better than current accord but I haven't driven that and would reserve my opinion until I drive that for a while as you know these things better after a while.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I don't see a quality problem with the Sonata GLS's cloth. It seems durable. It's more a styling/subjective thing. Let me put it this way: the cloth in the GLS would not stop me for a second from buying the GLS. Neither would the cloth in the GL (but I wouldn't buy a GL because it isn't a good value compared to the GLS and it has that poor excuse for a height adjuster).

    Is it a good thing that the Accord's (this was a '05 EX remember) cloth interior reminded me of a car that could be had for $13k at the time (stick shift base '05 Sonata) and was designed in the mid-90s? No.
  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    Your post is very confusing to follow since you say I have a double standard. I've tested both vehicles at hand and own one of the models outright. You have not tested the Camry, nor do you own the current model Accord. So, I could be rude outright, and say, you do not have a valid opinion. However, as I stated before, you have a right to your opinion, as do I.

    You state I never presented any proof from the thread. You never requested that I do that in your previous posts. People who are losing an argument tend to change the question. You go to the camry 2007 thread and there are several posts on this issue since you are the one hot and bottered by this issue.

    I will not comment further on this issue.

    I have a right to comment
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    That you have a difficult time with logic is not my fault, but yes, we can agree to disagree.

    Here's why I say you have a double standard: you have driven the new Camry 3 times, and thus, you have valid "extended" experience with said vehicle. I have taken road trips and many short jaunts around the Philly area in an 05 Accord EX coupe, and yet, because I do not own the car, my experience is not valid. That makes no sense!

    "People who are losing an argument tend to change the question" Um what? No. Proof needn't be requested. Look at any of backy's posts; makes a claim, backs it up.

    I will be happy to go to the 2007 Camry thread and take a quick survey of perception on the interior of the vehicle.

    Thank you for your superiority and enlightening contributions.

    ~alpha
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    it's probably time for the two of to move on to subjects other than each other. Please.
  • fsowirlesfsowirles Member Posts: 195
    My coworker has an 04 EX V6 and I prefer my 07 Camry SE V6 interior, and my driver seat. The Accord owner likes my new ride, and is considering trading his Accord in for one.

    Is that valid enough? :P
  • chidorochidoro Member Posts: 125
    Nope :P
  • waygrabowwaygrabow Member Posts: 214
    When I lived in Germany for five years, I initially had a 125 HP vehicle in which I could drive up to 120 mph. After that car was totalled on the autobahn (middle of a multi-car accident), I bought a 220 HP vehicle with a top speed of 140 mph. However, I never actually got up to 140 mph. At 135 mph I found myself watching the distant horizon, because I needed to react as soon as anything came into sight. Things happen very quickly at such speeds. Now I live in the mountains of Colorado and find that my 160 HP vehicle has enought power to go up mountains at a rate exceeding any listed legal speed. I also noticed today that gas is now $2.70 per gallon regular. Will there be a point where sane people might say, "My car's engine has enough power, now I would just like to improve its efficiency (mileage)? How much faster do you need to go? Is it all about getting away from the stoplight first? That was fun when I was 16, but would seem rather pathetic as an adult. I can see added power (torque) for a towing vehicle, but I don't think that is what most of us are considering. Is 265+ HP always better than 220?
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    "Is 265+ HP always better than 220?"

    Not always, but on many occasions it is, such as when you're trying to pass on the highway, or trying to get up to speed on a ridiculously short uphill onramp (there are quite a few of those around in my area).
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    I think it depends. The 2006 Camry V6 produced 190 horses (SAE), and yielded EPA figures of 20/28, with C/D testing acceleration from 0 to 60 at 7.6 seconds. Plenty fast, but slowest of the 4 cars tested.

    The 2007 Camry V6 produces 268 horses (SAE), and yields EPA figures of 22/31, with R/T testing acceleration from 0 to 60 at 6.1 seconds. So, over a second and a half quicker (no C/D times available yet), and 2 to 3 MPG better.

    Is 268 horses better than 190? Sure seems like it.

    ~alpha
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I wonder what the fuel economy would be if Toyota used the same technology as on the new 268 hp motor, but with around 200 hp instead.
  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    Done as far as I am concerned. Thanks, I will float back to the Honda threads.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Well, the Lexus GS's current-but-soon-to be replaced 3.0L V6 produces about 245 horses, and similar fuel economy with the 6 speeed auto... of, course, it outweighs the Camry.....

    I was actually hoping that Toyota would have considered setting new standards in the segment, and using the 2.5L 204 horse (SAE) V6 as the base engine, but I'm sure that would just cost too much. Wishful thinking. Still, it would have been a viable alternative to the 2.4L 158 horse unit in terms of economy, and would kick the 4's [non-permissible content removed] in terms of performance... the 3350 lb Lexus IS FWD was recently tested by Consumer Reports at 7.7 seconds to 60 with the 6A, and at 24 MPG overall fuel economy- the same as CR's last Camry 4.

    ~alpha
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    How old is that Lexus 3.0L V6?

    Also, it would be interesting to see the effect of VCM on the new, efficient Toyota V6s. They might get into the upper 30s on the highway.
  • waygrabowwaygrabow Member Posts: 214
    "I wonder what the fuel economy would be if Toyota used the same technology as on the new 268 hp motor, but with around 200 hp instead."

    That is what I am thinking. Once you reach a certain HP level, then using technology to improve fuel efficiency may become a higher priority. If gas reaches $4/gallon more people will start thinking this way.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Hmmmm maybe if they brought out a hybrid with 190 hp and 30-40 mpg it might sell.. Ya think?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    For those who can afford it, yes. How about a gas-engined V6 with 200 hp and VCM and the same kind of fuel economy. But Toyota wouldn't make as much money on those, compared to the hybrid, would they? ;)
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I hate to ask what these new 07 V6 Camrys cost. They were the most expensive cars in the class already. They might as well put the Lexus badge on it, if it goes up any more. If you are going to spend over 30k on a car you might as well get the Acura TL. It looks better, and will kick the Camry's butt.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Interesting comment. I'm sure you'll get a reaction from fsowirles, who was going to buy the TL, but turned it down for a similarly equipped loaded Camry SE V6, which has most TL features, the major one it lacks being auto climate control.

    Backy- the Lexus 3.0L in the GS is very new- it is part of the same engine family as the Lexus-exclusive (right now) 2.5L in the IS, the Toyota-everywhere 3.5L... Interesting note is that this family first debuted with the torque-biased 4.0L in the 2003 4Runner. All differently bored/stroked versions of the same engine family. Tuning also plays a key, as the 3.5L in the Avy, Camry, etc... produces 268 horses, about 272 on premium fuel (ES350) and 306 horses on premium in the IS350. Also, this is Toyotas first engine family that has been used in BOTH FWD/AWD and RWD applications All figures in this paragraph are SAE certified, fwiw.

    ~alpha
  • fsowirlesfsowirles Member Posts: 195
    Elroy: Alpha is correct. The only thing the TL wins on is the climate control, which is only available in the XLE and Hybrid Camry(I think). The 0-60 times (per R&T as posted on this board) show a .2 second edge for the Camry over the TL. I have driven the TL (both standard and A-Spec) on many occasions (Father in law has been in Acura sales for 12 years). As Alpha stated, I was on my way to sign the papers on a TL (It is a great car) when I came across the new Camry. It is an equal driving experience, with essentially equivalent options for $4k less sticker to sticker and with the discount I got on the Camry (and taking into account the discount I could have received on the TL) I saved about $2800. You can get into an SE V6 for less than $25k if you don't want other goodies in it.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    That is what I am thinking. Once you reach a certain HP level, then using technology to improve fuel efficiency may become a higher priority. If gas reaches $4/gallon more people will start thinking this way.
    -.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-..-.-.-.-.-

    Modern IC engines are just about at the end of the road for gas mileage. The best engines in the mid-sized sedans may be able to improve 2-3 MPG, but that's about the practical limit for all of them. To get a really significant mpg improvement... 5, 10, or even 15 mpg better, cars will have to shed weight. We have the technology to drop the weight of a 3400# car by 1200# just by substituting light weight alloys and composites for steel. A 1200# weight reduction would easily get you a 10 mpg improvement without loss of performance. But will it ever be expensive! :(

    I guess most Americans are like me in that they can tolerate ~10 cents per mile before they start asking for serious mileage improvements. Starting about now, mileage will jump to near the top of the buyer's check list. :D
  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    TL also has a better warranty, not that it matters though to people who trade in cars every two or three years. I would assume the Camry is quiter than the TL, and it definetly has the better engine/tranny than the TL. To me, the TL appears cramped, but I never sat in one. You can get one here in CA for $31.5k or $33.5k with Nav.

    How many miles have you put on your new Camry?
  • fsowirlesfsowirles Member Posts: 195
    400 as of this morning and my smile grows with every mile. I actually got into yesterday when a guy in a 330 felt he was more deserving of the lane than I. I was surprised by the oomph.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    I'm sure the top end Camry is a fine car, but it looks almost exactly like the bottom of the line Camry. So the 330 probably thought you were a little old lady on her way to church and didn't seriously push the car to the redline.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Is that necessary? You know what they say about assumptions.... And the SE is actually pretty distinguishable from the CE- it has a body kit (which I could personally give or take), lip spoiler, different front fascia and grille, and unique alloys. Exactly how different do you really expect it to look?

    And even if you did push the ES330 (at 215 horses) to redline, it still couldnt outaccelerate the new Camry V6...

    ~alpha
  • fsowirlesfsowirles Member Posts: 195
    I meant 330i as in BMW. And believe me, he was pushing it. It wasn't like a race or anything, but a little chest thumping over a spot when his lane died and he didn't want to get behind me. I wanted to get him to pull up next to me to ask if he had a Dinan exhaust because it sounded really nice and I couldn't see the pipes very well from inside my car.
  • ontopontop Member Posts: 279
    And even if you did push the ES330 (at 215 horses) to redline

    A BMW 330 has more hp and torque than that!

    Plus a fast loaded Camry? Isn't the Camry a family sedan with the image of a choir boy? To each his own but I don't see the point in wanting the pimped out family sedan vs the true sports car.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    And even if you did push the ES330 (at 215 horses) to redline, it still couldnt outaccelerate the new Camry V6...

    I'd bet he meant a 3 series Bimmer.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Plus a fast loaded Camry? Isn't the Camry a family sedan with the image of a choir boy? To each his own but I don't see the point in wanting the pimped out family sedan vs the true sports car.

    The true sports car?

    Umm, has anyone over 6' tried to ride in the back seat of a 3-series? If you EVER carry passengers and don't have $40k+ to throw around on a car, you'll know why he picked the Camry. Plus, he'll save a ton on insurance, and he'll also be the guy who blows past you when you get a ticket, because the cop is going for the guy in the Bimmer, not the Camry.
  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    My knees/legs just ache just thinking about the rear seat space in the 3 series...same goes with the Lexus IS Series. Nice cars, but no rear seat room.

    Fsowireles, you better watch yourself. No racing now.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Yep. I'd love an IS250/350, but am 6'4". When I get into one of those (I did at the Auto Show) I hear "Sabre Dance" (the circus music) playing in the back of my mind, because it feels like a clown car.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    When I was 18, the only Toyota I had any hope of buying was a Corolla. And I did--when I was 19. Things are a lot different these days I guess.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Well, I can't fit in my girlfriend's 2004 Corolla, so that car was out of the question.
    .
    .
    To explain why I'm 18 and have a brand new car:

    My parents told me, when I went into the 9th grade, that if I managed to get a full scholarship to college, they would take that money and buy me a car, since they were going to pay for my school anyway. Well, I am within $300 per year of having a full ride to UAB, so last November, they came through for me and surprised me with my 2006 Accord. I'm such a creature of habit though, I drive my 1996 Accord LX with a go-zillion miles on it every day to school. I guess it is a good thing to do financially, because it will mean that in ten years, I'll have less mileage on my 2006. I'm not losing value by putting miles on my 1996, because it is knocking on the door of 160,000 miles now. No value to lose there.

    I love the design of the IS350, which is why I'd love to have one. But, due to size constraints and the fact that I'm not independently wealthy, I drive an Accord EX-4. I love it though!

    BTW, my parents were originally going to buy me a new 2006 Civic, but my grandmother would not let them put me in something that small, so she paid the difference in the Civic EX and Accord EX, about $3500! She has worked 52 years (age 71, STILL WORKING!), spends basically nothing, and loves to give. She gave me my 96 Accord back in 02, in fact.

    Did I mention that being the only grandchild is great? :shades:
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Good for you! You have generous parents and grandparents. Yes, it does help to be an only grandchild--especially if the grandparents have some money (my kid's grandparents don't, but we love them anyway).

    I told my oldest son that if he gets a full scholarship (ROTC or other), I will... fold the money in his 529 account into the 529s for his brother and sister!! :D I've already bought him a car, a 2000 626. He likes it fine, considers it a "chick magnet." I forbid him to visit Web sites like this that talk about teenagers driving around in new Accords and the like. :)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Have prices for the hybrid been announced yet? I thought I heard they would actually cost a grand less than the XLE V6, but that might have been a forecast.

    -juice
  • tallman1tallman1 Member Posts: 1,874
    Too funny.

    My 95 Accord is sitting in the driveway waiting for my son to turn 16 next month. It is making sense to hang onto it for him to use. He's still got some practicing to do on the stick though! (Another reason why I passed on a very good deal for an 06 automatic... he'd want to drive the new one!)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Base model is $25900 + Frt + Mats.. Say $26700
    Options:
    Sunroof
    Leather & heated seats
    Navi
    Heated OS mirrors

    With everything on it - loaded - it should be near $31000

    XLE V6 is ~$31700 List
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Member Posts: 245
    I read a magazine that had an article about gas price. One of the interesting fact was how much oil we have underneath us that let us drive gas powered car anyway. One good example was Saudi Arabia now has to pump in so much of water a day to get remaining oil out. That magazine estimated about 15 to 20 years before it drys out.
    To me, it will be better to buy non hybrid cars for $10,000 less and save for alternative fuel cars. Recent Motor Trend magazine's actual hybrid car test showed those cars do not get EPA MPG anyway. About only 6-8 MPG better than non hybrid cars. Basically, $9,000 Kia Rio get about same MPG as $22,000 Civic Hybrid. By the time you have saved $13,000 on gas by Hybrid cars, we might no longer have Gasoline. In addition, after the warranty, Fuel cell battery problem will cost you bloody fortune.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    About only 6-8 MPG better than non hybrid cars. Basically, $9,000 Kia Rio get about same MPG as $22,000 Civic Hybrid. By the time you have saved $13,000 on gas by Hybrid cars, we might no longer have Gasoline. In addition, after the warranty, Fuel cell battery problem will cost you bloody fortune.

    This subject has been beaten to death on many many forums here and on many many different sites.

    Essentially your conclusion is correct .. it makes no sense to buy a hybrid for just the fuel economy unless you drive mega miles every year. The most economical solution is a Kia Rio, Scion xA or even better a 2-3 y.o. Corolla/Civic etc. If your budget is the most critical consideration then buying cheaper makes the most sense.

    However....

    Many people do not want to drive a compact vehicle, me included - at any price. Others have a concern for the environment on tailpipe emissions and there is no price you can put on that concern. For certain buyers just as some will buy MB's and Lexus' and others only used vehicles, certain buyers want a hybrid vehicle. It's why there are choices for everyone.

    The battery issue is dead also. There is no indication and ceretainly no proof that the batteries will die while the vehicle is on the road. Toyota states that they '..should last the life of the vehicle with no deterioration.' After 10 years there are no reports of any NiMH batteries going bad and dying.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Member Posts: 245
    1.People can get roomy Sonata I4 Auto for $13,900 with royalty rebate that supposed to get 30 MPG. Insted of spending $27,000 to $30,000 on Camcord hybrid.

    2. Never say never. Acura people could not believe my wife's MDX stalling problem with only 50,000 miles. A $40,000 luxury car had that problem, so does a $27,000 car will.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Correct and for those on a tight budget the Sonata is also a good choice, unless you want a Toyota and also want a hybrid. It's just personal choice.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    What's a Royalty rebate?
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    A typographical error for "Loyalty" rebate? :shades:
This discussion has been closed.