Your logic makes perfect sence regarding price deterioration. However, that represents the seller's, not consumer's, interest.
As an insurance agent, I dislike the multi-multi-trim levels. A client calls and wants a quote on the insurance cost for a new Camry (or whatever) he may buy. "Well, which trim, which engine, leather or cloth, navi or not, etc." Very often the client is not sure, hasn't decided yet. The insurance cost difference, as you can imagine, based on the prices you listed can be significant. Not picking on Camry here, just using your prices as examples.
I have no problem with a brand line offering a wide range of prices, i.e. Toyota Yaris thru Avalon or Hyundai Accent thru Azera. It's all those darned trims within a model line that make me and a lot of buyers nuts.
new es350's dash console is weird. looks like an egg. of course it's better than camry, but i'm still very disappointed.
lexus commands respect only in america. lexus is yet to earn any respect in europe. IS is still a cheap alternative to 3's and big saloons gets 0 respect because they are too soft and lack soul.
even in america, lexus still doesn't have mb and bmw's prestige.
"ven in america, lexus still doesn't have mb and bmw's prestige"
guess which cars most of the senators in the united states drive?? lexuses.
bmw and lexus cars are sort of two different breed of cars. bmw having a soul of a sports car and lexus just being downright quiet, reliable and an interior almost as good as audi cars.
Bmw does have a good hold in the euro market but in the states is even game pretty much.
Personally i value handling and steering feedback more so i would get a bmw but lexus cars would be nice for long highway driving.
You are comparing a 3 year old car w/40k miles to a new one. Heck, compare my $50k Volvo, which is now 4.5 years old and only worth about $20k to a new car and no contest. My Volvo is a rattle trap and falling apart. A new one would obviously not be the same. A new TL (prices not a factor) would blow the doors off of a Hyundai in every category. Lucky for the Koreans, it isn't a comparison being made because the prices aren't equal and they are in different class segments. Just like you wouldn't compare the TL to a M5.
Styling, and engine, and rigidity, and interior refinement, and keeping it at a reasonable price are why it's a hit. And your point about the leap, face it, the XG350 had alot more room for improvement than the previous gen TL did. Even that being said, the TL was a massive upgrade just as the Azera is.
Then, there is Azera that cheaper by minimum $5,000 compare to TL. TL won't be able to blow the doors of Azera in every category. Y don't you watch the new test movie on INSIDE LINE about AZERA.
The front looks horrendous compared to the sweet looking back. I know the 350 z is sick, but its just ridiculous how its design is tried to be implemented on the altima, maxima and nasty sentra. Did they benchmark the interior design with the g6? it looks improved but still very weak in tightness, and the materials look crappy(maybe cuz of the design).
This car will have its share of buyers cuz its sporty and its engine, but man nissan can't you pull another g35 ??
I love the view right in front of the wheel where the gages are. Alot of detail work with aluminum trimmings and look how tight its built. The materials look high in quality
Look at how untight this interior is. Design is good but what happened to not having gaps and being toyota tight??? Just doesn't look well buttoned down and materials look less solid in quality than sonata also.
who cares about edmunds for a second. Just look at the pics above. Which interior looks to have a tighter build quality in your opinion??
Also if you watch the edmunds video since you care alot about their opinon matter, it is a fact they said the camry had more addtional features(which also means the interior, not about build). And i admit the camry has a bit more style interior wise, but i rather have a tighter buttoned down made over style any day.
It doesn't look like the dash of a $25k car to me. It looks more like something I might see in an economy car or even a pickup truck. That might be harsh, but I'm not impressed by the new dash. I actually like the new Versa's and Sentra's dashes better. The rear end looks OK though.
Love the Altima's rear styling, the interior leaves a bit to be desired though- looks like it has a bit of a Fisher Price type feel to the plastics.
Choe13- what are you talking about? The Camry's interior materials quality and fit and finish is among the best. What gaps? If you are talking about the HVAC and Stereo units, they aren MEANT to be flush, and if you look closely, theres not a gap, its a difference in protrusion. The interior is incredibly snazzy at night, with clear, appealing (and dare I say youthful) bluish lighting and Optitron instrumentation.
The Sonata's interior is alright, but its a bit of a disjointed styling effort, and why are the stere and HVAC so separated? The Kia Optima is much more cohesive, uses a much more visually interesting color scheme. Too bad it can't be had with the 235 horse V6, cause I'd take it hands down over the Sonata on interior and exterior styling alone. The biggest problem with the Sonata interior is the dollar-store terrycloth upholstery on the GLS models. The Camry cloth, on the LE and even more so on the XLE 4, is much softer/plush and higher-grade, nor does it look like it belongs on the bathroom towel rack.
who cares about edmunds for a second. Just look at the pics above. Which interior looks to have a tighter build quality in your opinion??
Um, Camry, Accord (my Accord's pic above), Altima, Sonata. I've experienced the Accord and Sonata firsthand, as well as the outgoing Camry, and the outgoing Altima felt better screwed together when turning knobs and such (I remember the fan speed knob) than did the Sonata, but not by much. To look at them all, not much about materials can be told from pictures, so design points go to Toyota here, for simplest controls and best-looking layout. Build quality and "tightness" is a wash between Nissan and Hyundai (although it could've been an auto show anomoly).The Altima is a big step up in design from what it was, with a better instrument panel. The Sonata's teardrops are shiny, and that's not what I want catching my eye when I glance there, I want to see the info, not the shiny base of the pointers, which is what I LOVE about my Accord's dash.
Shoot, my OLD Accord has a better tactile feel to its controls than the old Altima (2002-2004).
Oh my... we all have different opinions and mine is just that. The Sonata leaves a lot to be desired. You had me convinced that it was making progress in the style category but this pic makes it look very cheap.
lol Trust me... IMHO, the Accord blows them all away, especially with the Navi. And those lighted gauges are the coolest thing I've seen on a dash since the fiber optics on my 1980 Datsun 200SX.
This was posted on the Fusion forum and seems appropriate here too. No word on a Fusion application but I have read some rumblings of a 2007 Fusion SE with the 35. Nothing concrete though.
Everything looks good in the dark. I still can't shake the deja-vu feeling (ala '90s Grand Am). Maybe that is why it looks cheap to me. Perhaps in person it will look better.
Electroluminescent instrumentation is no longer a unique Accord feature in this segment, though it was the first one to offer this. Toyota's 07 Camry cluster is sharper, IMO.
This is just a general reply not specifically to the interior. From what little info I see on edmunds about the 07 Altima I see no std ABS or side airbags, if this is true what is Nissan trying to do, shoot themselves in the foot. My son has an o5 SE manual, no abs or side airbags, I was not happy when he bought the car without those features. Sure they are options but try an find a dealer that has them on a car in a 5 speed manual. Well I just found that side airbags are std but not abs. Old Mike
I have read some rumblings of a 2007 Fusion SE with the 35.
Why, if the Fusion IS going to get a 3.5L, would they put it on the bottom end model (SE, as you say)? Just doesn't make that much sense to me. If they did it, it would likely be a Limited model, or at least the SEL (speculation only, folks)
Something like that but I was thinking more along the lines of how Ford does it's SEs. Think Mustang BOSS where HP and handling are improved instead of just trim levels. Now that SVT is supposedly gone we'll see, if we see anything that is, something like an ST (like Focus ST).
It's not much different. The 03-05s had red pointers, the 06 has white ones. Plus, the temp and fuel gauges are more "artfully" presented, as they flow in a mirror arc to the tachometer. I'll show you what I mean.
You can't see it well here, but there is an outline around the fuel and temp that mimics the outline around the tach.
I'm more of a symmetrical guy so the Camry loses out in that regard for me. That overlapping speedometer/tach bugs me. The pics on Edmunds of the SE are worse than the XLE.
The best interior is the Honda Accord. The others look cheap. I may be biased since I own the 2004 Accord LX. Another thing, the new Camry really has some cheap looking seats in the CE/LE trim. I will keep my Accord until the 2008 model comes out.
I think thats nuts! The Camry cloth in the 2007 version is MUCH better than the lint collecting Accord cloth or the previous generation Camry (and the Hyundai Sonata GLS cloth). To each their own, but I am shocked by your assertion. If you arent talking about the cloth, what do you mean by "cheap looking"? Cheap looking in the fact that the driver's seat is 8 way power adjustable?
"The Camry cloth in the 2007 version is MUCH better than the lint collecting Accord cloth or the previous generation Camry (and the Hyundai Sonata GLS cloth)."
I think you know what I was talking about - quality of the seat fabric. Several other posters on the other threads have said the same thing. Just compare both of them - I have and there is a big difference in quality of seat fabric and seat comfort. Just sit in both vehicles for an extended period of time, which you obviously have not.
What are you basing your statement on -the lint collecting cloth on the Accord. I have no problems with lint- so your statement is not accurate. Any other Accord owners experience what alpha claims?
I don't know what fabric texture has to do with the quality of the cloth. My six-year-old Elantra has cloth that is about the same texture as that in the new Camry. Does that make it high quality? I don't know. Just because the Sonata GLS' cloth has a knubby texture doesn't make it low quality. I suspect it is higher quality than the smoother cloth used in the Sonata GL.
I can't answer your question about your Hyundai since I have never owned that vehicle and never test driven it.
I just know that I like the gages and the seat comfort/quality of the Accord's seats better than the new Camry. Out of all midsize cars, I think the Accord still has the best interior, but its just my opinion. There are other features that I like on the Toyota and Sonata, so I don't advocate any car over the other, and I don't make my living selling one make over the other.
Personally I prefer contrasting colors for the pointers; red on white, black on white, etc. Honda would have been better if it kept the 03-05 color combo.
Contrasting colors help the pointers stand out more, especially during a quick glance while driving.
"Just sit in both vehicles for an extended period of time, which you obviously have not."
How incredibly ignorant.
FWIW, An ex has an '05 Accord EX 5M coupe for which we negotiated a great deal. However, anytime ANYONE is in it, it collects lint. LIKE CRAZY.
I havent seen other threads or other postings decrying the Camry's cloth. I think its better than that on the Accord. Have I spent a lot of time in the new Camry. I can honestly say I havent. But, how much experience in that vehicle do you have? Its only been out for about a month, and yet....you've been able to "sit in BOTH vehicles for an extended period of time"
"What are you basing your statement on -the lint collecting cloth on the Accord. I have no problems with lint- so your statement is not accurate." You are hysterical! Your experience is more relevant or valuable than mine.
Backy- are you serious? I remember when the Sonata came out, you too criticized the GLS cloth, why the change?
The only one that is hysterical is yourself. You really need to calm down a bit.
I have tested the Camry CE/LE on a total of 3 occassions. I have "tested" the Accord LX (a 2004 model which I owned for 3 years. I prefer the seating comfort and quality of the seat materials/fabric on my Accord better than the new Camry. Again, this is my opinion and you have yours. Others have written the same thing on the 2007 Camry thread. I have owned both vehicles in the past, and have drive a Honda or a Toyota for 20 years. You don't personally own either vehicle, nor have you tested the new Camry for an extended period. But, best of luck to you. I am not replying back to you beyond this message since this conversation is over with.
Comments
As an insurance agent, I dislike the multi-multi-trim levels. A client calls and wants a quote on the insurance cost for a new Camry (or whatever) he may buy. "Well, which trim, which engine, leather or cloth, navi or not, etc." Very often the client is not sure, hasn't decided yet. The insurance cost difference, as you can imagine, based on the prices you listed can be significant. Not picking on Camry here, just using your prices as examples.
I have no problem with a brand line offering a wide range of prices, i.e. Toyota Yaris thru Avalon or Hyundai Accent thru Azera. It's all those darned trims within a model line that make me and a lot of buyers nuts.
better ride? sure. but it's not an xg to azera transformation. no way.
This car is the benchmark for midsize car design, it has so much room yet so sculpted. Great attention to detail
lexus commands respect only in america. lexus is yet to earn any respect in europe. IS is still a cheap alternative to 3's and big saloons gets 0 respect because they are too soft and lack soul.
even in america, lexus still doesn't have mb and bmw's prestige.
guess which cars most of the senators in the united states drive?? lexuses.
bmw and lexus cars are sort of two different breed of cars. bmw having a soul of a sports car and lexus just being downright quiet, reliable and an interior almost as good as audi cars.
Bmw does have a good hold in the euro market but in the states is even game pretty much.
Personally i value handling and steering feedback more so i would get a bmw but lexus cars would be nice for long highway driving.
And your point about the leap, face it, the XG350 had alot more room for improvement than the previous gen TL did. Even that being said, the TL was a massive upgrade just as the Azera is.
I'm loving it.
This car will have its share of buyers cuz its sporty and its engine, but man nissan can't you pull another g35 ??
I love the view right in front of the wheel where the gages are. Alot of detail work with aluminum trimmings and look how tight its built. The materials look high in quality
Look at how untight this interior is. Design is good but what happened to not having gaps and being toyota tight??? Just doesn't look well buttoned down and materials look less solid in quality than sonata also.
Top interior in mid size
1. Accord
2. Sonata
3. ?
Otherwise, there is no resemblance.
Nobody harps on the new Audi TT for having a "Pontiac-looking" interior.
Anybody seen the new Audi tt's interior?
And the Sonata having a better interior than the Camry? Doubtful...Edmunds.com surely doesn't agree...but it's all subjective of course.
Also if you watch the edmunds video since you care alot about their opinon matter, it is a fact they said the camry had more addtional features(which also means the interior, not about build). And i admit the camry has a bit more style interior wise, but i rather have a tighter buttoned down made over style any day.
The audio controls on the Sonata are too low for my taste.
dude thats the climate controls, the audio is at the top, even higher than your camry. Have you even test driven a sonata yet??
Choe13- what are you talking about? The Camry's interior materials quality and fit and finish is among the best. What gaps? If you are talking about the HVAC and Stereo units, they aren MEANT to be flush, and if you look closely, theres not a gap, its a difference in protrusion. The interior is incredibly snazzy at night, with clear, appealing (and dare I say youthful) bluish lighting and Optitron instrumentation.
The Sonata's interior is alright, but its a bit of a disjointed styling effort, and why are the stere and HVAC so separated? The Kia Optima is much more cohesive, uses a much more visually interesting color scheme. Too bad it can't be had with the 235 horse V6, cause I'd take it hands down over the Sonata on interior and exterior styling alone. The biggest problem with the Sonata interior is the dollar-store terrycloth upholstery on the GLS models. The Camry cloth, on the LE and even more so on the XLE 4, is much softer/plush and higher-grade, nor does it look like it belongs on the bathroom towel rack.
~alpha
Um, Camry, Accord (my Accord's pic above), Altima, Sonata. I've experienced the Accord and Sonata firsthand, as well as the outgoing Camry, and the outgoing Altima felt better screwed together when turning knobs and such (I remember the fan speed knob) than did the Sonata, but not by much. To look at them all, not much about materials can be told from pictures, so design points go to Toyota here, for simplest controls and best-looking layout. Build quality and "tightness" is a wash between Nissan and Hyundai (although it could've been an auto show anomoly).The Altima is a big step up in design from what it was, with a better instrument panel. The Sonata's teardrops are shiny, and that's not what I want catching my eye when I glance there, I want to see the info, not the shiny base of the pointers, which is what I LOVE about my Accord's dash.
Shoot, my OLD Accord has a better tactile feel to its controls than the old Altima (2002-2004).
But again, just my opinion.
Definitely better than my 05.
This was posted on the Fusion forum and seems appropriate here too. No word on a Fusion application but I have read some rumblings of a 2007 Fusion SE with the 35. Nothing concrete though.
~alpha
From what little info I see on edmunds about the 07 Altima
I see no std ABS or side airbags, if this is true what is Nissan trying to do, shoot themselves in the foot.
My son has an o5 SE manual, no abs or side airbags, I was not happy when he bought the car without those features.
Sure they are options but try an find a dealer that has them on a car in a 5 speed manual. Well I just found that side airbags are std but not abs. Old Mike
Why, if the Fusion IS going to get a 3.5L, would they put it on the bottom end model (SE, as you say)? Just doesn't make that much sense to me. If they did it, it would likely be a Limited model, or at least the SEL (speculation only, folks)
You can't see it well here, but there is an outline around the fuel and temp that mimics the outline around the tach.
Here is a pic link to the old style 03-05s.
Another thing, the new Camry really has some cheap looking seats in the CE/LE trim. I will keep my Accord until the 2008 model comes out.
~alpha
I think you know what I was talking about - quality of the seat fabric. Several other posters on the other threads have said the same thing. Just compare both of them - I have and there is a big difference in quality of seat fabric and seat comfort. Just sit in both vehicles for an extended period of time, which you obviously have not.
What are you basing your statement on -the lint collecting cloth on the Accord. I have no problems with lint- so your statement is not accurate. Any other Accord owners experience what alpha claims?
I just know that I like the gages and the seat comfort/quality of the Accord's seats better than the new Camry. Out of all midsize cars, I think the Accord still has the best interior, but its just my opinion. There are other features that I like on the Toyota and Sonata, so I don't advocate any car over the other, and I don't make my living selling one make over the other.
Contrasting colors help the pointers stand out more, especially during a quick glance while driving.
How incredibly ignorant.
FWIW, An ex has an '05 Accord EX 5M coupe for which we negotiated a great deal. However, anytime ANYONE is in it, it collects lint. LIKE CRAZY.
I havent seen other threads or other postings decrying the Camry's cloth. I think its better than that on the Accord. Have I spent a lot of time in the new Camry. I can honestly say I havent. But, how much experience in that vehicle do you have? Its only been out for about a month, and yet....you've been able to "sit in BOTH vehicles for an extended period of time"
"What are you basing your statement on -the lint collecting cloth on the Accord. I have no problems with lint- so your statement is not accurate." You are hysterical! Your experience is more relevant or valuable than mine.
Backy- are you serious? I remember when the Sonata came out, you too criticized the GLS cloth, why the change?
~alpha
I have tested the Camry CE/LE on a total of 3 occassions. I have "tested" the Accord LX (a 2004 model which I owned for 3 years. I prefer the seating comfort and quality of the seat materials/fabric on my Accord better than the new Camry. Again, this is my opinion and you have yours. Others have written the same thing on the 2007 Camry thread. I have owned both vehicles in the past, and have drive a Honda or a Toyota for 20 years. You don't personally own either vehicle, nor have you tested the new Camry for an extended period. But, best of luck to you. I am not replying back to you beyond this message since this conversation is over with.