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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    How are they holding up after 5 years? 5-1/2 years and my '01 Elantra GLS is still going strong--looks and rides like new, very reliable. It's been such a great car that I hate selling it to my sister, but I know she is getting a fine car. Over its first two years, my '04 Elantra has been the most reliable car I've every owned. No mechanical problems, just a cloudy headlight cover replaced under warranty.

    And the '06 Sonata is light years ahead of the '01-'06 Elantra.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    Basically lets put it this way, the accord is hurting right now, and i think i can sense some jealously. =]

    "That's a darned impressive feat and speaks to how well designed and engineered the 3-year-old car was when it was introduced, and remains so to this day." - Edmunds

    The Accord is aging gracefully down the rankings ;)
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    ...that was C/Ds verdict on the Infiniti G35 in their recent comparo! :blush:
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    And it applies to the Accord to (IMO)! :P ;)

    I really want to see how the Accord will hold up against the new Altima and Camry. I hope C&D comes out with another comparison.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    That article was published about a month ago, you make it sound as if I was citing something from the last generation of Sonata. IIRC, it also represented CYTD figures, so even if Fleet and Incentives were at ZERO for the past 30 days (highly doubtful), the impact may or may not be signficant.

    Did anyone bookmark that article? I thought I had, but can't find it and don't have a bunch of time to search through back posts????

    ~alpha
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    I can't help but think the new Accord will somehow reignite Honda's fire. Their latest new models (Odyssey, Civic, Pilot, Ridgeline, Fit) show Honda's breaking away from being an Accord and Civic driven company, and testing the market for the next big thing.

    The Accord did put Honda on the map, but the latest version is stalling against the competition. Gracefully?
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    Is that how the civic is doing that now?? It is getting a romping from the mazda 3 and even the cobalt is gaining on the sales of the civic, and anyone logical would buy a mazda 3 any day over a ordinary civic(drum rear breaks?). Now that is definitely 5 years previous design.

    The top of the line accord should be good, there is no doubt. But with the premium to pay for that, and now that you could get a v6 sonata or even fusion v6 compared to a v4 accord(even next gen), honda and toyota will lose their bite as the years progress with the crowed that buy most of these kind of cars.(how about more value or lowering the prices for once)
  • tinatinatinatina Member Posts: 388
    Yes, it was published about a month ago. I don't have the link, but its a big concern that 30% of sales go to rental fleets. I do like the car though. They are also "adjusting" prices on the 2007s. Probably will be lowering some options/base prices.

    As far as the other poster and the Accord, its been out for four years now. Its sales are still quite strong. They are both good cars, its just a personal preference. We will have to wait and see how the 2008 model is received. I have not seen anything concrete, other than rumors.

    As far as the civic is concerned, Honda is selling these vehicles close to their asking price. There is huge demand for this vehicle, which is awesome.

    As far as the Pilot, those are on the lots, but they are still selling. Most mid/full size SUYs have been hurt with the rise in gas prices. Heck even the hybrid Highlandedr is not selling that well in my area with significant discounts.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The 2006 Sonata's styling was set in stone in mid-2002? Hmm... Maybe that is their problem...too far behind the times (4 years is a long time in the car world.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    There is no such thing as a V-4 accord. Unless you are talking about a subaru (which uses a flat-four design), you need to know that the four cylinders discussed here are "Inline" 4-cylinders, meaning all of their cylinders are in line with each other. A V-4 would be inherently rough.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Is that how the civic is doing that now?? It is getting a romping from the mazda 3 and even the cobalt is gaining on the sales of the civic, and anyone logical would buy a mazda 3 any day over a ordinary civic(drum rear breaks?). Now that is definitely 5 years previous design.

    The Civic I'm certain is doing spectacularly this year since the redesign and may even pass both the Corolla and the Accord by the end of the year putting it behind only the Camry. The new Civic is a wonderful advancement and may sell triple the 3's sales. I think the only limitation is the capacity to fulfill the demand. Hyundai should have such a vehicle in it's stable.... ( rear drums or not ) ;) .
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    Forget about the pleasing part of the design. What about this cars hood and trunk opening feature? what about the airbags? the esc as stds on all models, what about even on the rear bottom having a hard plastic undercovering(usually audis or trucks) the whole car to help prevent from the underneath from rustings or getting damaged? not even the 2007 camry has that. In alot of ways the sonata is much more luxurious than the camry
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    The Civic is doing very well. Its sales are up by 32%.

    v6 compared to a v4 accord
    I think you mean i4? :P
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    No, not from the last generation Sonata, but the incentive info you cited is woefully out of date--that's how fast it changes in today's automotive jungle. As for the fleet sales info, I don't know that it's still 30% but that could have easily changed too. How many Sonatas can Hertz et. al. absorb? They don't just buy Sonatas, as we know. They are actually considered "specialty" cars, not the mainstream cars you get if you order up a mid-sized rental. That would be a Taurus or Malibu most likely. :P Although lately I had some variety, got a G6 :( and a Legacy :) the last two rentals.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    They are actually considered "specialty" cars, not the mainstream cars you get if you order up a mid-sized rental. That would be a Taurus or Malibu most likely. Although lately I had some variety, got a G6 and a Legacy the last two rentals.

    I've seen a Mazda 6 by Hertz in my school parking deck.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    None of the foregoing is in any way 'more luxurious' than the Camry.

    ESC is a good safety feature that's about it.

    The rest is ho hum. It's the Azera that's in the upper class of the Camry..not the Sonata. Hyundai itself has decided that.

    Above $25000 the Azera will fight the Camry/Avalon pair. The Sonata is not an entry in this battle. Hyundai has it directed to the budget-conscious buyer not the entry-lux buyer. That's the Azera's territory.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yep, I've rented a couple of Mazda6's from Hertz--sure beats the usual Taurus or Corolla (a "mid-sized" car--LOL!) I usually wind up with.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    the azera and camry do not even belong in the same sentence. I mean thats just crazy. The avalon many writers have said may fall short of the azera(minus mpg) and it could belong closer to competeing with a lexus. I haven't driven it myself and prob never will, but knowing how hyundai tries to build its cars, i wouldn't doubt that.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    We've gone over this already. The XLE V6 Camry is more vehicle than the Azera now. It's the same vehicle as the Avalon with more features and lower price.

    People will buy the SE V6 or XLE V6 Camry in a heartbeat over the ( likely excellent ) Azera. I showed you the comparison of the features but you seem to have lost that post. It's there.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    As far as cars go, the Camry is first in sales numbers, the Civic second, and Accord third. The Accord was second last year. The Camry and Accord have been battling it out for the top spot every year for at least 10 years now. I'm sure that the new Accord (in 2008) will bring the Accord back to second, at least. Check this link out.

    http://autos.msn.com//advice/article.aspx?contentid=4023925
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    From the cited MSN article...

    Here are the top ten bestsellers for the first quarter of 2006, based on data published by Automotive News:

    1. Ford F-Series 199,801
    2. Chevrolet Silverado 145,353
    3. Toyota Camry 93,775
    4. Dodge Ram 90,386
    5. Honda Civic 78,479
    6. Honda Accord 76,954
    7. Chevrolet Impala 64,433
    8. Nissan Altima 60,628
    9. Dodge Caravan 58,624
    10. Chevrolet Cobalt 52,527


    The Impala is ahead of the Sonata??? This is a joke or a misprint. :surprise:
  • faldocfaldoc Member Posts: 84
    I thought about the Azera, but there were several things that concerned me. First, there is no Hyundai dealer in my town. Second, the styling looked derivative and leaned towards Buick. Third, although Hyundai has made quality strides recently there is really little history to Hyundai as a brand. I cannot afford the time to be taking the car to the shop.

    From the value standpoint, Azera seems to have a lot going for it, but in the end I went with the Toyota because they have a longer track record, and after testing the 2007 Camry XLE V6 I was hooked. It's a great car and after driving it for 1500 miles in the past 11 days there is nothing which persuades me that I made the wrong decision.

    Not only is it very powerful, it is economical: on the highway I am getting about 31 mpg, just like they say you can get. If the trip computer is close then when I do my next fillup I might be at 32 to 33 mpg. I might get 530 miles out of this tank before filling up!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Not only is it very powerful, it is economical: on the highway I am getting about 31 mpg, just like they say you can get. If the trip computer is close then when I do my next fillup I might be at 32 to 33 mpg. I might get 530 miles out of this tank before filling up!

    Excellent for a vehicle barely broken in. Good driving too.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Member Posts: 245
    No matter what, they losing sales.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Member Posts: 245
    530 Miles on a V6 Camry with a tank full? Are you going to have a trip on the moon where no gravity, no other cars, no traffic light, and no wind?
    Its more fun to read this forum than read a sci-fi novel.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    I just noticed something, where is the Toyota Corolla :confuse:

    Am I missing something?


    1. Ford F-Series 199,801
    2. Chevrolet Silverado 145,353
    3. Toyota Camry 93,775
    4. Dodge Ram 90,386
    ----Corolla should be here----82,287
    5. Honda Civic 78,479
    6. Honda Accord 76,954
    7. Chevrolet Impala 64,433
    8. Nissan Altima 60,628
    9. Dodge Caravan 58,624
    10. Chevrolet Cobalt 52,527
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Good catch.. well done..
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Well, if the he achieves the EPA rating (which he already has) then he should go all the way to 573 miles to empty. 530 is a good thing to shoot for. I'm not sure why you are so down on anyone that doesn't drive a Hyundai. You seem to bash a lot of people on things that simply aren't true.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Member Posts: 245
    Sorry, but I will have hard time to believe it even if it is I4 Sonata either. Especially, if it is not fully broke in yet.
    I'm not saying that just because it is Camry, V6 3500LB cars in general.

    If that V6 car gets that good of MPG, Y they also made Hybrid version of it?
  • fsowirlesfsowirles Member Posts: 195
    Well, look up the tank capacity and do the math. It isn't out of the realm of realsitic possibility.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    What's there to be jealous about?

    Value, value, and value.

    And for the paltry sum of $18K out the door, you can get this:

    http://www.powerwheelmods.com/images/sonata.avi

    Listen and weep. :D
  • hansiennahansienna Member Posts: 2,312
    You have just proven the INACCURACY and lack of credibility of MSN Autos. :sick:

    BTW, where did you find the sales numbers for the Toyota Corolla? How many more errors are contained in the listing?
  • cxccxc Member Posts: 122
    I did not see anything exciting for about 31 mpg. My 2002 ES300 gets 32 mpg @70 mph consistently. The CR test shows that the same car gets 34 mpg @65 mph. My 2006 Sonata LX also gets 31 mpg @65 mph (regular unleaded fuel) and 0 to 60 mph less than 7 s.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    oh yeeeaaah... ;);) maybe they think that way? :confuse:
    sometimes makes you wonder.. personally, I think they all copied the model T.
  • faldocfaldoc Member Posts: 84
    Yes 31 is not exciting in and of itself. But the Camry V6 XLE does this with an increase in power from 210 hp for the 2002 ES300 to the 268 hp of the new 3.5 liter V6, a 27% increase in power.

    Now the V6 Sonata is a better showing for the power it gets, which is 235 hp. The Camry gets the same mileage but manages to squeeze another 33 hp out of it, some 14% better than the Sonata. Maybe not exciting but significant. The XLE uses regular unleaded, too.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    These are published monthly by every manufacturer. You can go to any site, Ford, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai and get the results month by month for the last 5-10 yrs.

    It's also summarized on several auto sites.
  • cxccxc Member Posts: 122
    I will not reach a conclusion so quickly. Let us wait for the CR test of 2007 Camry V6 for its real world mpg. A consumer reported that his 2007 Camry V6 only got 26 mpg while his Olds Intrigue got 29-30 mpg. Manufactures can optimize EPA rating for their cars. Just look at the EPA fuel efficient rating for hybrid. It is a false ad, but legal.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Well, its the samne V6 used in the Avalon, albeit with an extra gear, which one would expect to IMPROVE fuel efficiency.... and CR managed 22 MPG OVERALL (higher than the 21 they managed with the Sonata).

    Also, the consumer you cite that "only got" 26 MPG- was he past the break-in period? My Nissan jumped about 15% in fuel efficiency only after about 5000 miles.... what was the city/highway split for that 26 MPG? His 205 horse Olds Intrigue managed 29 MPG? Again, I'd have the same question, but also note the 63 horse discrepancy.

    ;)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Just look at the EPA fuel efficient rating for hybrid. It is a false ad, but legal.

    This is not true actually. In my 150 mi RT commute every day now I obtain the stated EPA values on my Prius.

    If you want the full explanation I'll post it on the Prius forum.

    It's all a matter of the driver and each's specific conditions. It's neither false nor misleading just misunderstood and few have taken the time to find out why this is so.
  • cxccxc Member Posts: 122
    Go to the CR web site and find what the CR real world fuel efficieny is for Prius.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    CR achieved a combined 44 MPG overall for the Prius, which it also tested at 10.5 seconds to 60 MPH.

    Putting that in perspective, their last Camry, an 05 4 cylinder 5A, achieved a combined 24 MPG overall, and tested at 9.7 seconds to 60- not quite a second, but a noticeable enough difference.

    Also, the 4 cylinder Hyundai Sonata tested for the March '06 issue posted a 0-60 time of 10.5 seconds (same as Prius), but achieved 23 MPG overall.

    So, EVEN IF the Prius doesn't hit the EPA figures, it still manages to increase fuel efficiency by about 90% compared to vehicles with similar passenger space.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Sorry, but I will have hard time to believe it even if it is I4 Sonata either. Especially, if it is not fully broke in yet.
    I'm not saying that just because it is Camry, V6 3500LB cars in general.


    Buddy, it's simple math. 31 MPG times 18.5 gallons equals 573 miles to empty. You can do the same with a Sonata I-4 and come up with 33 MPG x 17.7 gallons = 584.1 miles. Its not hard to do...I usually fill up at around 400 miles in my Accord EX, and it takes about 13-14 gallons or so, so I'm getting around 30 MPG in my mixed driving.

    I regularly achieve 36 MPG in my 3300 lb Accord I-4 on beach runs, and have gotten as high as 40 MPG in a special case (no A/C, moderate temps, only 1 passenger and 1 suitcase, planets aligned, etc...). I have no reason to doubt he can hit EPA numbers or higher, because, after all, the EPA lowers numbers by SEVERAL MPGs on the sticker from what they actually achieve.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    "The 2006 Sonata's styling was set in stone in mid-2002? Hmm... Maybe that is their problem...too far behind the times (4 years is a long time in the car world. "

    Automakers lock up their design one or two years prior to release is very typical; only in certain circumstances where massive changes are made. Example: I would think Honda has already locked up its design on the 08 Accord, or at least they are coming down to the home stretch.

    Actually, the current Sonata debuted and was released in 2004. For all purposes and considerations, any accusations of copying is false.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    CR is not the most 'factual' source based on one test. Look at their embarrassment after their recent 'oops' in the article in the annual auto edition. A far more reliable source would be GreenHybrid where there are 500+ owners posting their tank by tank results.

    At GH the Mean is 47.5 mpg over the entire population. But even with that there are explanations. If you are interested I can explain in more detail. BTW it doesn't apply just to the hybrids. It's every vehicle on the road.
  • faldocfaldoc Member Posts: 84
    My real world mileage is based on 95% highway driving which is without many stops, no traffic jams, few hills, and relatively short distances to and from the highway. I do a lot of driving, about 45,000 miles in the past 18 months. I have learned how to save gas by driving very carefully. I do not speed, or tailgate, and I do illte passing, and I am gentle on the gas while accelerating. I look ahead and get my foot off the gas long before I need to.

    I even got 25 mpg in my Lexus LS400 consistently. You might not get this, but a disciplined and careful driver can.

    Camry: 31.1 mpg for the last fillup. I will post it again today after filling up this evening. I hope it is even better.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Toyota doesn't seem to feel that way; after seeing the current design of the Civic, Toyota's designers went back to the drawing board on their soon-to-be-seen Corolla...Not 4 years.

    Yes, I'd like more evidence, but I'm not going to ask for it, since it'd be hard to come up with conrete evidence. It does not take 4 years to change a taillight design...And I don't feel the front of the car looks like anything else on the road. The rear is suspect, though.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    4 years? How did that number come about?

    I count 1 year and half, AT MOST (since it debuted in 04)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The whole "this car looks like that car" gets old real quick. Nothing hasn't already been done before if you think hard enough.

    Let's face it, in the mainstream mid-size sedan arena, there just isn't a whole lot of break-through styling. Even the '86 Taurus followed the Tempo and the Audi 5000.

    The whole segment is so converged that of course everything looks derivative of each other, intentional or not.

    -juice
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I was reading that the car debuted as a 2006 model, since when I search 2005 Sonatas, the old one comes up. I should have said 3 years, because it was said that the design was set in mid-2002 for the 2006 model.

    Was the new Sonata techincally a 2005 model? When did it hit lots?

    I'm past the whole design thing or trying to argue it, since there is really no point (doesn't matter since the new Accords have a different design anyway). Just trying to understand a couple of things:

    1) When did the Sonata hit dealers?
    2) What year/model was it technically?
    3) How do you know when the new Sonata design was set?

    Thanks a lot!
  • njeraldnjerald Member Posts: 689
    I'm past the whole design thing or trying to argue it, since there is really no point (doesn't matter since the new Accords have a different design anyway).

    So forget about it!
This discussion has been closed.