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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread



  • pocono35pocono35 Posts: 89
    When Hyundai put a shot across Toyota's bow with the Sonata, Toyota was preparing to launch a Camry that is as much of an advance in the mid-size segment as was the Sonata an advance for Hyundai. I think we all need to realize that Toyota's planners probably knew Hyundai was planning a major assault and this new Toyota is a massive response. None of us would dispute that Toyota can put out a car that would severely raise the bar like a 'Lexus in Camry clothing'if they desire. I think they have. They are also offering a hybrid. Price is nothing spectacular, but it doesn't need to be because it is not meant to take buyers away from Hyundai but buyers in mid-size segment who aren't buying a Hyundai or Honda or Nissan. It is the benchmark!
    The other day, I saw the new Camry for the first time and was rather surprised by its presence. I realized Toyota wasn't fooling around with this car. I understand as well that Toyota has halted the production of the new Corolla and set it back 6 mos. after seeing the new Civic. Toyota wants increased market share and will use their huge corporate resources to get it.
    This is the first Camry I have ever considered buying.
  • tinatinatinatina Posts: 388
    There is a noticeable difference between the 4 speeed automatic that I had in my 2000 Accord versus the 5 speed automatic in my 2004. When I tested the Camry in the Summer of 2003, they did not yet have a 5 speed automatic. With the 5 speed, there's better shifting and better fuel economy. Its by far the best shifting automatic I ever owned. I get about 27 miles to the gallon in mixed city/freeway usage, which is not bad considering the stop and go traffic and the hills of the City by the Bay. I also went with the Accord because of the dealership and salesperson. The Toyota service/sales practice at the dealerships I went to or was familiar with through contacts, were not that good.

    I will check out the V-6 Sonata, especially if I can get one for about $17k after rebate, exclusive of TTL. As far as the suspension in the Sonata, that's is the only minus they indicated with that vehicle. I'm use to the Honda suspension which provides very good handling, but transmits a bit more road noise. This is just a personal preference.

    To that other poster, the fact that the Camry has a mcpherson suspension does not make it the worst. I think you are equating the worst with being of a very simple design. This does not necessarily equate. I will hold judgment of the 2007 Camry until/unless I test-drive it in terms of ride handling/suspension versus my 2004 Accord. One thing that would be worse on the Camry is the fuel economy projectsions versus a 2006 Accord, and horsepower. Also, with the front grille, you don't know if you are driving a Mazda 3.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    A five speed auto will also help optimize where the RPMs lie in a given situation. Ex:

    My 4-speed Accord LX will go to about 4,300 RPM at 75 MPH when floored (well short of the power peak in the mid 5k RPM range). My 2006 Accord EX w/5 Speed Auto goes to 5,500 RPM or so given the same conditions, MUCH better power when needed. It also allows for a better overdrive gear (500 less RPMS at 75MPH in my 5-speed vs. my 4-speed = 3 MPG better highway).
  • seniorjoseseniorjose Posts: 277
    "According to Edmunds recent test the Sonata has the lowest decible rating benchmarking even the Camry. Accords tend to be more noisey and roady."

    ...but nobody is buying them...lack of perceived value and Daewoo engines!
  • cxccxc Posts: 122
    You have had 4 Camrys! My former boss' wife bought a MB E-class diesel in 1990; it costs about 3 - 4 Camrys. She is still driving it. She said that she was going to make 1 million miles.
  • tinatinatinatina Posts: 388
    Perhaps even more importantly, there is a big difference in the 4 speed of the earlier Hondas/Acuras, which shifted poorly or had hestitation issues. This is gone in the current generation Accord - no hesitation or poor shifting. I've driven three Hondas since the 1980s, and the current generation Accord has the best tranny/engine response of any Accord, or any of the compentition(again excluding the 2007 Camry-since I have not tested it). Honda has clearly leaped ahead of the competition with respect to this area (again excluding the latest version of the Camry-since I have not yet tested it).
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,905
    Daewoo engines! LOL! That was a good one! :D
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    ...but nobody is buying them...lack of perceived value and Daewoo engines!

    Daewoo engine? Um, no. No Daewoo motors here.
  • ctc1ctc1 Posts: 66
    Daewoo engines were did that come from?
  • creduluscredulus Posts: 10
    Properly applied and executed, a McPherson strut front suspension can work very well, both from a handling and ride perspective. The McPherson strut rear suspension, actually called a Chapman strut, can also work well. Colin Chapman of Lotus was the first to apply a McPherson strut to a rear suspension design, hence the name Chapman strut. And, if any of you remember the Lotus Elan sports car, it was one of the best handling cars on the planet. Lotus F1 cars were no slouch either!!
  • creduluscredulus Posts: 10
    Hey Joe,

    Which planet Earth do you live on? Not selling them, that's an absolute lie . . . And, Daewoo engines, not quite sir. I think you're thinking of another Korean brand that supplies cars for GM. Remember the Pontiac LeMans, circa 1990? That was also a Daewoo.

    Hyundais have never used Daewoo engines. Unfortunately, your posts no longer have any credibility, as you do nothing but bash Hyundai - or, anything else that isn't Honda or Toyota.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    I believe the Daewoo engines comment came from ignorance, of which there's been a sharp rise lately on the boards.

    The rest of us know that Hyundai's latest engines are seriously competitive, and thats good enough...

  • tinatinatinatina Posts: 388

    Can you or maybe some else give me the pro/cons of the Hyundai GLS V-6, either in general or on the V-6 engine. Nice to see you on this thread - I just came here yesterday, and see that you also post/have posted here.

    Credulus - It was not me who made any comment about the MacPherson Suspension became cheap/inadequate/inferior in any way. I heard that this suspension was less complicated than others in terms of design. I think the other poster equated this with the suspension being cheap/inferior/inadequate/etc.


    Tina (
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    A SHORT list of Pros/Cons from what I've heard from owners/testers:


    Features/Power/Car for the dollar
    Nice, inoffensive styling
    Many Stndrd Safety Features
    Better Ride Than Accord, nearly as good as Camry
    Roomy Inside


    Questionable Resale
    Reliability improving, but still unproven
    Inoffensive Styling low on the emotion meter (for me)
    Handling not as good as Accord, Mazda6
    Roomy interior still not at the quality of Honda/Toyota (9/10ths of the way there though!)

    There are many more pros than cons with this car.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,905
    Specifically on the GLS V6 compared to other Sonata trim levels:

    * "Interesting" cloth pattern--almost a terrycloth texture. Grippy though.
    * 16" wheels/tires standard vs. 17" on the LX (17" available as an option). Ride is softer with the 16", but handling not quite as sharp. 17" alloys better looking IMO than the 16-inchers.
    * Power seat not standard. Seat height adjuster is a lever type and tends to tip you forward as you raise the seat--can be disconcerting for some, sit before you buy (also try the optional power seat, it has independent height adjustments for fore and aft).
    * Manual HVAC vs. automatic climate control (on LX).
    * Steering wheel doesn't telescope as on the LX--check that all drivers have a comfortable reach to the wheel.

    Note that if you find you need the power seat, by the time you add the package that includes it you are getting pretty close to the price of the LX. And there is more markup on the LX, so actual pricing may not be very far apart.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Posts: 245
    It's little off topic, but it happened because of this forum. Thanks for Camry vs Sonata debate, I end up with EX 06 Sedona today. I happened to stop by Kia dealership to look at the o6 Sedona on my way back from the Toyota dealership that I had test drive. They agree with the price with MDX trade in. Took my wife back and got EX Sedona with 3.8L Azera engine, tire monitor, alloy wheels, power sliding doors, back door power lift,ECS with traction, ABS, remote entry, power middle window, mp3, trip computer, auto dimming, compass, shiftronics......... and so much more for $21,500. I could save another $2,000 if I still had 03 Sedona. That same engine Azera has moves this van fast. I can't imagine the power of Azera with less weight than Sedona and use same engine. Now the van has only 30 miles on it, already gets 20 MPG which is about 4 MPG better than turtle MDX had. Like the Sonata does in family sedan, I am happy to inform you that we have another cheap alternative for Oddiena.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Good luck and congrats on your new van. I like the looks of yours MUCH better than the new revised Sienna, and the price can't be beat! The only flaw I can find with it is the fact that it drinks the good stuff. Premium. (yes, i realize it will take regular, at slightly diminished power, but why not make the engine run on regular to begin with; would it be that much more expensive to do? I'm asking seriously, not sarcastically.)
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Posts: 245
    I did on MDX because it required, not on Sedona.
  • meateatermeateater Posts: 123
    Why can't he bash Hyundai if he wants? You don't have to listen to him. Not everybody wants a Hyundai. That's for damn sure. Yea I think the Sonata is a decent car, but they're not selling many around here too. So it's not a lie that they're not selling everywhere. Chill.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    Wow - amazing stuff. A Korean buying a Korean vehicle.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Posts: 245
    Sure! Korean car made in America ( Sonata made in AL and Kia will soon have same size assembly line near by, give 1000s American good place work for). What can you ask for more? I like to support my mother country and the America where I happily live in, when American buy Japanese.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    This is such a mountain out of a molehill. You'd think that there have been massive complaints over the past 10-15 yrs that Camry's have been falling apart and shaking to pieces due to the '..cheapest..' suspensions.

    Actually, I think it's a tribute to Toyota's ingenuity to get so much from a cheap, simple suspension design. Haven't driven an 07, but I had no idea the 06 had McPherson struts until I heard it here. The dealer never mentioned it.
  • tinatinatinatina Posts: 388
    The 2007 Sonatas should be out next month or in June per an article I read last night. I don't have access to that Article but they blasted Hyundai for selling 30% of the vehicles to rental car companies. That is why with the new incentives one could get $3,000 in rebates plus 2.9% financing for a GLS V-6, 2006.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    1st Qtr Sales are out today...

    Monthly '06 vs '05
    Camry .. 93800 ... 98500
    Accord .. 78700 ... 80900
    Taurus .. 51800 ... 65000
    Fu /lan .. 37500 ... zero
    Sonata .. 42900 ... 28000

    1st Qtr is normally the slowest of all.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Surprised to hear Taurus still leads in Ford car sales (at least at the top) for almost all of last year and this year. Looks like Fusion/Milan/Zephyr, combined, have exceeded its target goal so far, Kudos!! However, I thought total sales of the above triplets, combined, would have surpassed Taurus' figures (despite the fact to fleet) - I think this month it was somewhere around ~20K for Taurus and ~17K combined for F/M/Z - Fusion (~10.5K)/Milan(~3K)/Zephyr(~3.5K) - perhaps next month...

    Glad to see Hyundai making strides in the midsize class. Should this trend continues, Sonata will easily surpass 150K units/yr. As they say, quality products will sell themselves :)

    17.5K units moved this month for the Sonata should place the model in the top five (car sales)??
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Posts: 245
    "When Hyundai put a shot across Toyota's bow with the Sonata, Toyota was preparing to launch a Camry that is as much of an advance in the mid-size segment as was the Sonata an advance for Hyundai."

    I suggest you test drive a new Camry like I did. Test drive and compare LE which is about $2,000 more than top LX, and tell me what you think. I could not test drive V6 Camry, non on the lot. If you can test drive V6 Camry and compare to LX Sonata, will be very interesting to read. As far as LE goes, there is no comparison to my LX. $19,500 LX feels more luxury, sporty, way more fast, solid, and feel roomier than LE. I can say XLE will be more attempting than LX for many people. However, $7,000 to $11,000 price gap will make people think twice before they buy XLEs.

    Just reading what other people say and believe it, did not make sense to me. That Y I went to the Toyota dealership. I hope other people do same thing and see the fact.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    What is interesting enough is that people are not shopping the LX vs the XLE but rather the Acura TL vs the XLE. This has been my point. While the Hyundai is a very nice car it lacks enough features that certain shoppers wont consider it at all.

    A $30000 vehicle buyer is not a $19000 vehicle buyer.

    It's not being uppity it's a matter of content. The two vehicles are different enough in content that the buyers see the comparison immediately. Now the Azera is a different story. That may very well be a competition to the XLE Camry, but the Sonata is not.

    The V6 XLE and V6 SE +Navi + leather + BT will compete with the Azera and the LE/CE/SE 4c will compete against the V6 Sonata's. This in fact are the two comparo's that Edmunds did except they left out the Azera and put the Sonata in its place.

    At the end of the year the sales figures will still be
    450,000 Camry's
    200,000 Sonata's

    Both companies will make money on this product line.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Posts: 245
    And 90% or more 450,000 Camrys owners will buy LE even though they wish to have XLE, only 10% or less will be lucky XLE owners. On the other hand, 70% or more of 200,000 Sonata owners will have happy V6. That means that most of Camry owners will have to stare at nice looking sedan with Big H logo from the behind, and that will be a shock for many proud Camry owners.
  • jhinscjhinsc Posts: 399
    ...That means that most of Camry owners will have to stare at nice looking sedan with Big H logo from the behind.

    That may mean something to you, but not to most Camry buyers.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Wow, thats an awesome exaggeration. FWIW, according the recent Car and Driver article (Mar 06), 60% of this generation of Camrys will be 4 cylinders, not 90%.

    Where is your 70% figure coming from? According to the recent automotive news posted here, Hyundai is starting to produce more 4 cylinder Sonatas.

This discussion has been closed.