Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

elroy5

After I bought my new 03 EX V6 Accord I finally decided to sell my old 92 EX Accord (needed a truck to haul stuff, and had just traded the junk Toyota T100 I had for the 03 Accord). I looked up the Kelly blue book on it, and for a 92 EX 140,000 miles, in good condition (a few dings, and one small dent). The blue book was $3,400. I decided if I couldn't get $4,500 for it, I would just keep it ( I loved that car) and just do without a truck. Well, I put the sign on the car, and in less than one hour it was sold (to the first person that stopped). I knew the car had at lot of miles to go, and apparently so did the guy who bought it from me. I do the maintenance on my own cars (if you want it done right, do it yourself). When the guy opened the hood and saw there was no oil leaks, or grease anywhere on the engine, and everything worked like it did when it was new, he knew he had a winner. A 12 year old 92 EX Accord with 140,000 miles on it sold for $4,500. I could have gotten $5,000 easy. You can't beat resale value like that with a big stick.

ctc1

I've bought several high mileage cars that have had proof of good maintenance and have had very good luck with them. When a car has 100,000+ miles and has been cared for all the expensive stuff will have been replaced and the car starts it's second life. I must admit that although most cars run well after many miles Hondas feel tight and rattle free unlike most brands including Toyota. I'm not so sure about the new ones though having test driven a o6 Accord and the car already had some rattles. was very disappointed.

elroy5

Any car can have a rattle or two. But they can be found, and fixed. Rattles are easy, no parts to buy, only a little investigation. I hate rattles, so I find them and kill them. However, if it's a new car, and still under warranty, the dealer gets to do the searching. Rattles are no big deal to me.

tinatina

Hello,

Do you own the 2006 Accord 4 cylinder auto as well as a 2004 or a 2005? I was just curious because I may be interested in purchasing a new 2006 version of that car. I have a 2004 Accord, but my dealer is giving a good price on the 2006 (less than a $100 more than my 2004 with more stuff on it and since I can register the car in a different county than where I lived in 2004, the OTD price will be several hundred cheaper than my 2004 purchase), and about 81% of the cost of my 2004 on trade-in (I can get more by doing a private party, but am never home to sell the car and don't want people coming to my door).

Do you notice a difference in horsepower? I understand the vehicle has 6hp more than the 2004 model and the drive by wire throttle system. I wanted a Camry LE, but the price is about $1,600 more and they will not give me anything for my trade-in. Although the Camry may be a better vehicle, its not that much better. There are still deficiencies in its interior imo, which is not up to par with the equivalent Accord LX. The LX dash and the quality of the seat fabric materials is superior. It seems like Toyota has gone really cheap in its cloth interiors as of late.

P.S. My dad griped about my 2004 Accord having a 4 and not a 6 until he drove it. He commented that the 4 had ample power and was quite smooth. Its arguably the best 4 cylinder on the market in its class.

scape2

I was host to a Japanese client. Car topic came up. Lexus/Infiniti in Japan are no big deal. Japanese would rather have BMW or Mercedes. This, even when the quality ratings for these two brands has not been the best over the last couple of years.. go figure...?? So once again here in the U.S. Lexus/Infiniti are status symbols.. in Japan they are not really. At my last job I used to play host to folks from Europe. They would get a chuckle about how BMW/Mercedes are such status symbols here in the U.S. In Europe BMW/Mercedes are just like an everyday Ford/Honda/Chevy...

choe13

You get a bimmer and ten years down the line the engine will still be strong(still last too). Can't be said for a honda/acura or toyota/lexus car, where the engine gets weaker as the years progress(maybe after 150k)(though it will last).

kdhspyder

Can't be said for a honda/acura or toyota/lexus car, where the engine gets weaker as the years progress(maybe after 150k)(though it will last).

Silly statement of opinion with no substantiation.

All 4 nameplates will take you well into 200K+ miles with no problem and normal care. It happens everyday all over this country. What good feeling do you get from constantly putting down anything from the two Japanese leaders?

Bimmers have good engines, for sure, they also hold their performance much better than Korean engines which are a couple of notches below the two Japanese leaders, plus probably Mazda. So what.

The point ofyour post was to say that Hyundai was 5th behind all these others? Maybe 6th if you count Audi or 7th if MB is included....

njerald

You get a bimmer and ten years down the line the engine will still be strong(still last too).

It constantly adjusts all wear parts and reinforces all high stress points to like new tolerances............

thegraduate

Hey. I have a 1996 and a 2006, while my father has a 2005 (pre-hp bump) that i drive fairly often.

It actually has closer to 10 more hp (the SAE testing procedures changed and Honda reflected that. Based on the new procedures, the old 2.4 goes from 160 hp to 156 hp (as seen in the CR-V)). I notice a little more low/midrange oomph (between 2k and 3k rpm). Dad's car lunges a little when it gets to 2,500-3,000 rpm where as my car feels more linear, with more power from the get-go. The transmission is slightly smoother in mine, at least i think so anyway.

thesniper

"Silly statement of opinion with no substantiation."

Don't bother anymore... nothing new.

elroy5

Can't be said for a honda/acura or toyota/lexus car, where the engine gets weaker as the years progress(maybe after 150k)(though it will last).

What happened here? Hyundai engines don't measure up, so now we're compared to BMW. I don't remember seeing BMW on the comparison list.

thegraduate

Honda's get "weaker" with time, as opposed to others who stay consistent to their power ratings after 200k miles? There's an inconsitency here... all cars wear down, not just Hondas. Interestingly, when hurrying home ahead of a tornado warning (I wasn't in danger, but wanted to be home before hail hit) my 1996 had no problem doing 105 MPH on I-59 south(above 4,000 RPM IIRC), with flashers and A/C going... BTW, the car had about 156,000 miles at the time. If that's weak, I'm happy with it.

I realize that's dangerous to go that fast, but I also had pets to let inside before the storm...I've lost a cat to running away in a thunderstorm about 10 years ago, and don't want to lose another.

Also, the majority of traffic was well above 80 MPH (not rush hour)

It's the one time i've been over 100 MPH; the fastest I've been in my new car is 85.

choe13

do not insult me personally , you want this forum closed again? attack my comment, do not attack me personally

i'm not going to bother responding to your comments anyways, i already promised myself, this is the last time

Why i brought it up is cuz someone mentioned about bimmers vs lexus engine etc

I don't care if everyone here can't understand my logic, but most euro cars engines are made with more substancial parts than japanese cars. Even body, frames are heavier and stronger etc. Thats why japanese cars are bigger on efficiency and lightness, and want lighter everything, which goes for engine too. But with how hard the engine has to work, lightly made engines will lose its performance edge. Thikn of how many steps the japanese engines(vtech all these other toys) it has to go through to make up the lower engine litre sizes to perform compared to a euro engine which uses a more conventional way of operation. It only makes sense it will last and stay stronger(it may not be as efficient of course), and i have personal experience with this matter in addition

I love the hyundai bashing , because they will have the last laugh in a couple of years. Unlike alot of japanese cars, the new hyundai cars definitely have a substancial feeling(engine, body, shutting door sound) compared to a mass produced feel i get from most japanese cars.

I welcome logical replys, no personal comments cuz 1)your msg will get deleted by the host or 2) worst for everyone here, get this forum shut down maybe for good

kdhspyder

Then why didnt you just say that in your opinion Bimmers are stronger than Korean and Japanese engines in the long run.... If you say that's it's your opinion then whether silly or not your statement is valid.

You bring this on yourself with off the wall bashing that makes no sense.

Whether you respond or not doesn't matter. I will respond to statements that make no sense and fly in the face of statistics, experience and logic. That's the purpose of a discussion.

kdhspyder

Thikn of how many steps the japanese engines(vtech all these other toys) it has to go through to make up the lower engine litre sizes to perform compared to a euro engine which uses a more conventional way of operation. It only makes sense it will last and stay stronger(it may not be as efficient of course), and i have personal experience with this matter in addition

Here's a valid discussion point that has been discussed for years in the domestic forums as the detroiters have slOOOOOOwly gone the route of the DOHC and finally into VVT technology in order to refine the engines. Their opinion and from your statement if true it would seem the euopean opinion is that bigger and simpler is better.

The performance of Toyota and Honda as opposed to GM and DC would seem to disprove that in the public's perception. But the detroiters still hold that the 3800 pushrods for example are simpler and still get the job done as well as any VVT-i or iVtec. They may very well be holding on to the bow of a sinking ship though. Maybe the euro view is flawed as well?

bobad

A 12 year old 92 EX Accord with 140,000 miles on it sold for $4,500. I could have gotten $5,000 easy. You can't beat resale value like that with a big stick.

Excellent example of why all the "resale voodoo" the "experts" are telling us is just a load of you-know-what.

Resale value for any car, regardless of make, is a range of prices. Your 12 year old Honda probably sells in a range from $1000-$6000. Well guess which price you would rather have??? Are you going to abuse it and trade it in to a dealer for 1K, or are you going to take good care of it and get $4500 for it? I always get top dollar for my used cars, and I have full confidence my current car will be no different. Don't listen to the "expert's" self fulling prophecy of doom!

imidazol97

>You get a bimmer and ten years down the line the engine will still be strong(still last too). Can't be said for a honda/acura or toyota/lexus car, where the engine gets weaker as the years progress(maybe after 150k)(though it will last).

Can you cite a scientific reference for that assertion?

cxc

Do you know who first used VVT? GM did it first. Here is another example - American's innovation and Japanese's refinement. Do you know who should get credit for ABS, stability control, traction control, and auto-safety glass? By the way, who first used the hybrid technology?

goodegg

Since when does a BMW (a non M) all of a sudden have all this extra power and endurance? Sure a straight 6 is a durable engine, but so is a Vtec Accord or a 22R Camry. And the Vtec engine (best 4 cyl in the world) will run forever with proper maintenance. BMW ain't so hot any more.

seniorjose

Daewoo has a CEO that can't take any action either (sentenced to 10 years in jail). How does this affect quality and pride in the Hyundai nameplate? Are we waiting for another shoe to drop?

Honda dealers in NYS and Iowa said that their used car prices on Hondas and Toyotas are firm, where other brands prices are negotiable. The Honda/Toyota autos right now are the standard of excellance with Subaru, Mazda and Nissan getting closer.

choe13

"Can you cite a scientific reference for that assertion?"

I'am no scientist to explain the reasoning you want, but if u know cars(some autobody experience) plus if u bring in some cultural comparative advantages(economics) into play, thats where my point is justifiable

The japanese are an industry of high raw material import(mind you not semi raw but the more raw and cheaper the better) and tend to understand how to make that into something high tech. But unlike their euro counterparts they lack rich natural resources(expensive to import), thus for example some german automakers can have access to some better and more metal to create their cars. You get more solid grounded feel compared to a lighter japanese car(just take a look at specs as well, euro cars are usually heavier and engines are bigger in size)

To compensate the lower litre and with all those gadgets having to work not only on normal operation but think about how many more have to work during high accelation to compensate for performance of a higher litre car.

I'm not implying just cuz u got a higher litre engine, it will be a good stronger engine(some american engines break faster than japanese), but some companies like bmw, audi have engineers and techonology just as comparable or better than their japanese counterparts.(plus resources for higher quality metals)

Just want to make clear, never said japanese engines suck(because they are good on gas and seem quite durable) but after about 150 km definitely you notice a drop in 1 sec or 2 0-100 compared to a clean pull you will still receive from say an bimmer 3 series(early 90's).

choe13

Both sell very well. Gen Y apparently like the saab.

just wanted some opinions,which one would you buy and why?

tinatina

Thanks for the information.

kdhspyder

I am in agreement with all of that and maybe even more importantly Statistical Process Control. Have the detroiters used all of this to their benefit to show how advanced they are actually?

Hybrid technology was developed in the early 1900's right after the auto itself was developed.

kdhspyder

But unlike their euro counterparts they lack rich natural resources(expensive to import), thus for example some german automakers can have access to some better and more metal to create their cars. You get more solid grounded feel compared to a lighter japanese car(just take a look at specs as well, euro cars are usually heavier and engines are bigger in size)

This is a statement again of your opinion. I ws in the steel industry for 25 yrs ( working for a German company!! ) and what you are saying is just false.

Please just say that this is your opinion. It is not fact. The fact is that autos are made to specific standards of strength, formability and surface aspect. The steel and metals must be ultra clean to be able to be formed into complex shapes without tearing while still maintaining a superior suface quality.

Actually German steel is third in the world in automotive shipments behind the major Japanese mills and the French/Belgium/Luxembourg consortium Arcelor.

You're just making things up now. As another poster stated plese cite some scientific evidence of your statements. Or just say 'I's my opinion....'.

Everything is fine then.

backy

You may wish to apply your own advice, e.g.:

BTW.. The current Altima is a poor 4th to the Camry, Accord, and Sonata and probably the Fulans. It will never be in the class of the Avalon or the Azera or the new XLE V6 Camry.

Is this fact, based on scientific evidence, or is it just your opinion?

imidazol97

No scientific proof, IOW.
I'll take that as an opinion.

bhmr59

Hyundai recently started a campaign to emphasize that 70% of their new vehicles have ESC as standard equipment. Rather unlikely that they would drop ESC from the Sonata.

See www.theautochannel.com and ">link titleclick on Hyundai in the right hand column.

chats1

Why don't you all just go out and test drive a Grand Prix GXP and stop acting like a bunch of kids!!!

alan_s

Well said backy!
I didn't take the Altima seriously either - I hadn't even remotely considered it, until an Infiniti saleman "accidentally" drove me in his personal Altima 3.5SL from their lot to another lot for me to drive the M35 I was interested in.
I was very surprised by the Altima and that is how I ended up getting one and saving a bunch of $$$$$ over the M35. Don't tell the Infiniti salesman he goofed!
For some reason, the Altima gets overlooked. Perhaps it is the interior which has less "showroom appeal" that Honda and Toyota interiors, but is actually better in quality, form and function than it initially appears.
As my "review" says - test drive one and you'll find out for yourself.

jrock65

Although we picked the Accord over the Altima, we were pretty impressed by the Altima, and I wouldn't say that it's a distant 4th to the Camry, Accord and Sonata. It competes very well with them.

The Altima gets a bum rap mainly because the 2002-2004 interior was of poor quality. The 2005-2006 interior is a lot better, although not quite up to the Accord's interior.

Otherwise, the Altima is a fine car. The Altima 3.5SL is certainly in the same class as the Camry V6 XLE. They are both the top of the line trims for the respective manufacturer's mainstream sedan class. The Camry is a more refined car, gets a couple better mpg, but it is not SO much better to warrant saying that it's in a different class.

In any case, we're comparing essentially the last gen Altima to the current gen Camry. I'm sure that the 2007 Altima coming out in a few months will be a significant evolutionary advance over an already nice vehicle.

alpha01

Is that the Altima disappoints on areas that are highly visible to the consumer. For example, 4 cylinder fuel efficiency and refinement significantly lag the Accord, Camry, and Sonata. A 4-5 MPG difference as per the EPA is significant, though hopefully the CVT of the next generation will cure that ill.

The interior, even in the 05-06 models, still lags behind the last gen/current Camry, and Accord in fit/finish. I've found the Altima leather very nice, but the cloth nearly intolerable.

Also, Nissan fails to deliver any safety advantage (currently), and did not even BOTHER to have the IIHS retest the Altima after its (expectedly and understandably) 'Poor' result in the IIHS Side Impact. ABS isn't made standard, when the Altima's major competitors have it on the spec sheet. Stability control? Multi adjustable rear head restraints?

This is personal preference, but I never though the Altima handled much better than the Accord, though felt more agile with less body roll than the last gen. Camry. The new Camry is a bit better though, and I wonder how the SE models woulds compare... Also, the ride is more jiggly than in the Camry/Accord.

Finally, the Altima can appear very pricey due to inflated MSRPs. The 3.5SL fully loaded is $30,855. That's the same as the Camry XLE V6, which offers more features.

Nissan never benefited from press accolades either, as I've never seen the Altima beat the former generation Camry or current Accord in a comparison test, whether it be on edmunds.com or Car and Driver or CR, and so on, and nearly all press on the V6 models have included demerits for torque steer..

It's a good car against some better ones, and the new edition has its work cut out for it, though it is a very stylish sedan. I own a Nissan and am looking forward to its debut, I am just hoping prices don't increase much.

~alpha

alan_s

Mine has TCS, ABS, EBD, and the side airbag/air curtain package which I agree should be standard on all Altimas - I wouldn't by a car without them.
Also agree that MSRP is misleading unless you know that the Nissan dealers will deal, so too will Honda dealers but Toyota dealers are sticking pretty close to MSRP on the new Camry. They can keep 'em!

thegraduate

choe13, I was just making sure you were aware that BMWs use VANOS, which is their version of Vtec. They have been using VANOS for years now, as are most car companies (using some form of Variable Valve Timing, so saying a Honda won't be as strong as a BMW because it uses VTEC really holds no water. Using your logic, you COULD say (although I'm not sure how true it is, but for sake of being easygoing...) that the 3.1L V-6 in the 1996 Lumina may have retained more power than a 1996 VTEC Honda Accord, but even as I say that I don't really believe it. Mainly because out of driving a 11 year old Honda (non-VTEC) and a 9 year old Civic (VTEC - EX CIvic Sedan, 1997) I feel no power loss.

tinatina

I think you made a wise purchase. The 2006 Altima still looks quite nice.

Also, remember, Toyotas are not pricey and they do not have inflated window stickers even though on the Camrys they are charging $1,400 for Alloy Wheels.

thegraduate - I passed on the Accord. Will wait for the 2008 model. (2006 is too similar to my vehicle, but very nice). The interior still looks way nicer than the equivalent 2007 Camry in my opinion. I was also disappointed that you could not get the LX SE model in the desert metallic. (I wanted to change colors from silver to beige).

chidoro

Finally, the Altima can appear very pricey due to inflated MSRPs. The 3.5SL fully loaded is $30,855. That's the same as the Camry XLE V6, which offers more features.

Nissan never benefited from press accolades either, as I've never seen the Altima beat the former generation Camry or current Accord in a comparison test, whether it be on edmunds.com or Car and Driver or CR, and so on, and nearly all press on the V6 models have included demerits for torque steer..


Well, at least it's in your own opinion. While Toyota finally upped the ante with their new Camry V6, Nissan's V6 typically garners as many accolades as Honda's I4. I just priced an SL with all that it offers minus a wind deflector, sirius (I have xm) and their first aid kit. I am able to get an OTD price of just over 25k w/ their current rebate. That's more than 1,500 less than a comprably equipped Camry XLE which doesn't come with heated seats or VSC.
And considering it's in it's approaching it's sixth year, it still competes very well.

alan_s

The Nissan VQ engine has won awards 11 years running as one of the top V6's and really started the mainstream horsepower race.

An advantage with the Altima is that it is a "mature" design with proven mechanicals so the bugs should have been worked out of it by now. It also has a non-adaptive PROVEN transmission (YEAH!) which means it behaves itself and you don't have to adapt and teach it how to drive!

I don't want to open the Avalon conversation again, (please NO! ) but if the new Camry turns out to be anything like the new Avalon on which it is based, there are going to be a bunch of unhappy people paying the price for buying a first model year - and it doesn't have a perfect record to date.

I have been bitten hard so I'll take older and proven ie Altima or Accord, over brand new and "technologically more advanced".

alpha01

"I just priced an SL with all that it offers minus a wind deflector, sirius (I have xm) and their first aid kit. I am able to get an OTD price of just over 25k w/ their current rebate. That's more than 1,500 less than a comprably equipped Camry XLE which doesn't come with heated seats or VSC."

You can equip an Altima with Stability Control? Did I miss something?

Also, I am aware that the VQ has won many awards, it is an excellent engine, and I did not knock it my post for anything other than the torque steer it can produce. That said, most of the Camry, Accord, Altima models are 4s... and Nissan's 2.5L is not in the same league as the 2.4s from Honda or Toyota in terms of NVH or economy.

~alpha

alan_s

No, stability control isn't available on the Altima, just VSC, and EBD. Can't comment on the 2.5L but then again, when it comes to 4 cylinders, I think Honda is king.

alpha01

VSC = (Toyota's) Vehicle Stability Control.

I think we mean TCS in relation to the Altima, which is no more than traction control.

~alpha

tinatina

No doubt that the Honda 4 is the king. The 5 speed automatic tranny accompanying the Accord is also the best in the segment. The new Camry was sluggish in my last test compared to the Accord.

alan_s

Oops! You're right - I meant TCS! All these acronyms!
alpha, if you are in the Georgia area I can tell you where I got the best deal on the Altima.

alan_s

Yep. My dad has a Honda 4cyl and it thinks it is a 6! Runs like a scalded cat and so smooooth.

meateater

The Accord 4 has the jam of a 6cyl (older ones) in the 3-6K powerband. Awesome engine. In 2002, I test drove the 4 cyl first, then the 6 cyl, and there was only a minimal power difference.

I think today's Accord 6 will smoke today's 4......

thegraduate

I think today's Accord 6 will smoke today's 4

Well let's hope so, or else there are a lot of V6 owners wondering why they paid more and get less fuel economy! :shades:

I love how times have changed though, since we're reflecting on this...

In 1996, the Honda Accord EX-V6 had 170 hp and got 19/26 MPG, and cost over $25k brand new.

Today (10 years later), the Honda Accord EX-L has 170 hp (based on the old SAE testing procedures like the 1996 would have been tested on, its 166 hp under the new procedures), gets 24/34 MPG, and costs less than $25k, while offering features that weren't available in 1996 such as Dual Auto Climate Control, EBD, Heated Seats, Tilt Sunroof (back then they only slid forward and back), steering wheel audio controls, remote roll-down windows, it goes on and on. For $150 less than a 1996 EX-V6 ($25,100 then, $24,950 sticker for an EX-L Auto).

Not bad in today's dollars. Accords have actually gotten cheaper considering the fact that the old V-6 makes basically identical power to the new I-4.

alan_s

One more thing as far as mpg goes... I was getting 16.3 mpg city driving in the Avalon, and the Altima is getting 17.8 mpg under identical driving conditions. Neither are great, but it goes to show that one has to be careful about the manufacturers' fuel consumption claims. I was running the Avalon on premium (dealer recommended) and regular in the Altima, per the owner's handbook. I would imagine the Accord V6 to be better being a smaller engine.

alpha01

Thats surprisingly low fuel economy given some of the other postings I've seen regarding the Avalon, and instrumented testing by the magazines...

~alpha

alan_s

I also thought it was low after everything I had read about the Avalon's great economy.

This is real stop and go Atlanta traffic, though - more stop than go. I'm a gentle driver, but I couldn't get better than this. The dealer told me that my fuel consumption was pretty much the same as other customers were getting. Avalon consumption was good on the freeway. It would jump up to the high twenties. I haven't taken the Altima on a long interstate trip yet to compare.

kdhspyder

You're right of course.

kdhspyder

one has to be careful about the manufacturers' fuel consumption claims

Actually as you know those 'claim's are stipulated by the EPA not the manufacturers.