Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

thegraduate

Exactly...I do get tired of hearing how all the car companies are "lying" to consumers, when they don't decide what numbers get printed on the sticker...that's the Environmental Protection Agency making those estimates, not Toyota, Honda, Ford, GM, DaimlerChrysler, Nissan, Mazda, Subaru, VW or any other car company. It's the good ole' EPA.

New EPA test procedures are soon to come out (within a couple years) which should have more realistic numbers. For example, currently, the EPA city and highway loop assume no A/C usage, and the highway loop has no speed over 60 MPH. I've read that the new procedures will have highway speeds touching 80 MPH at one point, if I'm not mistaken (which I could be on that point, but 80 MPH sticks out in my head for some reason). Much more realistic figures are coming...

alan_s

True, but the manufacturers play them up if they look good. Makes you wonder how the EPA can possibly get the mileages they claim. I don't believe they do real-life testing. All hypothetical extrapolations. Not even good for "comparative purposes".

ace35

I was running the Avalon on premium (dealer recommended) and regular in the Altima,

I thought nissan "recommended" premium for the VQ for optimal performance, but im aware you can use regular for reduced performance.

thegraduate

Check out some mileage boards around... MANY people get better than EPA numbers. I've averaged about 36 MPG when doing strictly HWY driving, and after checking my log (an Excel spreadsheet) I have averaged 29.71 MPG in mixed driving (probably about 50/50, I live in the suburbs; by the way, I don't include the trip MPG numbers since that would be unrealistic to checking my normal driving status).

That's 64.359 gallons over 1912.1 miles. (I started keeping tabs in March).

Considering my EPA sticker says 24/34, and I have gotten anywhere from 28.94 MPG to 31.2 MPG in the last 2 months of mixed driving, I'd say the EPA procedures aren't too bad assuming people don't drive like bats out of hell (although many do). I tend to stay under 3,500 RPM 98% of the time, unless I have to punch it to merge or pass. On the interstate I usually go with the flow of traffic (between 5-10 MPH over the limit usually).

alan_s

Interesting.

Regarding the Altima fuel requirement - I also thought it required premium until I read the manual which lists regular as the fuel requirement. It runs at close to warp speeds now without any pinging or anything to indicate that a higher octane is needed. I don't see any need for more power - it's an absolute rocket. No need to press hard on the gas - power is always there. I may try a tank of premium to see if there is any difference.

Toyota dealer told me that the "hesitation" problems were lessened if premium were used and they were recommending premium to their customers even though Toyota now officially lists regular as the fuel requirement. I never used anything other than premium in it - it had more hesitation issues than I could handle.

ace35

I agree with you on the VQ engines. This engine just leaps off the line with just the slighest touch, and has an excellent exhaust note. My neighbor has a G35 coupe, and that beauty sounds amazing when its revved up.

chikoo

IIRC, Mazda HAD to do this simply because it would have competed against it's ultra-lux brethern the Jag X-type with the following specs that uses the same Duratec V6:

Base Engine Type: V6
Horsepower: 235 hp
Torque: 216 ft-lbs.

alpha01

Thought some folks might find this interesting as an FYI. Toyota is claiming its one of their most extensive MMCs. Standard 6CD and LED taillamps are pretty neat.

Curiousity- The Solara's 2.4L makes 3 hp less than the Camry's (this may be due to exhaust plumbing). The Solara soldiers on as one of Toyota's two vehicles using the architecture of the old 3.0L, with its 210 horse 3.3L engine. This is disappointing given the new engine family is so much more powerful as well as more fuel efficient. Obviously though, Toyota is working out the manufacturing bugs from the 6 speed auto, so this may have been a consideration.

"May 26, 2006 – Torrance, CA - Toyota Motor Sales (TMS), U.S.A., Inc., announced manufacturer's suggested retail prices (MSRP) today for the 2007 Camry Solara Coupe and Convertible.

For 2007 model year, the Camry Solara receives one of Toyota's most extensive mid-year changes to date and raising the bar in the sporty coupe segment. The 2007 Solara offers several exterior and interior styling changes, additional standard safety equipment, and enhanced audio and convenience features.
Solara's exterior enhancements include newly designed halogen headlamps, grille, front bumper, and integrated fog lamps. From behind, Solara will feature restyled LED tail lamps, bumper and rear spoiler. The Sport grade adds unique HID headlamps, 17-inch alloy wheels, front and rear under bumper spoilers, side rocker molding, rear spoiler and tailpipe diffuser.

Inside, Solara adds newly designed optitron instrumentation with unique sport meters in Sport models, interior trim color and fabric, six-disc CD changer audio system with MP3 playing capability and an audio auxiliary jack for connectivity to most portable music players, as standard equipment. SLE models get standard hands-free calling capability via Bluetooth™ technology and all 2007 Solara's get seat mounted side airbags and curtain side airbags (curtain side airbags not on convertible) along with a Direct Tire Pressure Monitoring System as standard equipment.

The standard powertrain for the 2007 Solara is a 155 horsepower, 2.4-liter four-cylinder engine with VVT-i. A powerful 3.3-liter V6 delivering 210 horsepower is also available.

With the additional standard equipment and performance upgrade, the 2007 Solara will receive an average MSRP increase of only $382 or 1.5 percent. The Solara SE with a four-cylinder engine will carry a base MSRP of $19,930 for the five-speed manual and $20,760 for the automatic. The price for the SE grade with the V6 and automatic transmission will be $22,260. The base MSRP for the Sport grade will range from $22,200 for the four-cylinder with a five-speed manual transmission to $24,530 for the V6 and automatic transmission. The MSRP for the premium SLE with a four-cylinder and automatic transmission will be $23,905. The MSRP for the SLE V6 and automatic transmission will be $26,905.

The base MSRP for the Solara Convertible SE with a V6 and automatic transmission will be $27,190. The Solara Convertible SLE with a V6 and automatic transmission will start at $30,460. The Solara Convertible Sport, a new model, with a V6 and automatic transmission will start at $29,460.

The new prices will take effect when the 2007 Solara goes on sale in early June."

~alpha

ace35

Gm/Ford should take notes on how toyota updates its vehicles. Now thats how you do an update on a aging vehicle.

bhmr59

My wife has an '04 Infinity G35 coupe. I hate the sound; sounds more like a turbine than a sports car. Maybe that's because I had a true sports car from '71 to '83, a Volvo 1800E. That car had the rumble/growl when getting on the gas or down shifting that I associate with a sports car.

That being said, the Altima, which is not a sports car, has a good balance of power,handling, MPG and creature comforts. It's definitely worth consideration.

alpha01

http://www.safercar.gov/NCAP/Cars/3845.html

Some of the lowest HIC readings I've seen on the NHTSA site in side impacts, even though that isn't factored in to the star rating.

~alpha

ral2167

Why are they dumping in the 3.3 V-6 on the Solara, when they got the 3.5? What a dissapointment.

kdhspyder

It annoys many but Toyota often goes it's own plodding way in these matters.

This is the last year of the Solara so it gets the same powertrain until - if - it is redone completely next year. It's normally been a year behind its 4 door sibling.

It keeps the 4 door version unique and 'special'. Everything revolves around keeping the Camry strong.

joe97

I wouldn't call this an "extensive MMC", as claimed by Toyota. I saw photos of the 2007 Camry Solara the other day and I would say "refresh" is more fitting.

No 3.5; no V6 manual (coupe/convertible)

I digress - let's get back to sedan discussions

thesniper

"No scientific proof, IOW.
I'll take that as an opinion."

Me as a comic relief...

alpha01

Actually, its been two years behind its 4 door sibling; it debuted for MY '99, and was redesigned for '04. Camry 4 door = '97 redesign, '02 redesign, etc...

The way I see, '08 is the last year for this iteration of the Camry 2-door, not '07

"Everything revolves around keeping the Camry strong." OK, maybe... but the Solara is counted in Camry sales, they have never been separate. Seems like if Toyota's looking to keep the Camry strong, they're looking to keep BOTH sales of the 2 and 4 door UP. (People often forget that Camry and Accord sales are boosted by their 2 door variants, which most competitors don't offer...)

~alpha

booyahcramer

I hate the sound; sounds more like a turbine than a sports car. Maybe that's because I had a true sports car from '71 to '83, a Volvo 1800E. That car had the rumble/growl when getting on the gas or down shifting that I associate with a sports car.

You could put a fart can on a Civic and whoop your Volvo 'sports car' and get the same sound. I love the sound of the Infiniti and the TL's engines. With the high end Altima approaching these 2 cars' price range no wonder people aren't buying them. 06 Altima sales are hurtin.

Paddles! Clear!

ontop

I love the sound of the G35s. Don't you pay the dollars to get that rumble? GM does it great. You hear their hps. Toyotas are very muted.

bobad

I think this sounds pretty good. (56K and direct link warning!)


Sonata doing 0-133mph

Edit: You may have to right-click, and "save target as".

kdhspyder

..Corolla passes the Camry as the No 1 selling auto in the US

Whew.. Hybrid Camry sales push the total Camry sales just above the Corolla for May. What the heck is going on here?

alpha01

Why the heck is the Corolla selling so well? Yes, it has incentives nationally (ranging, depending on region), but its simply not as good a vehicle as the new Civic or Mazda 3, in my opinion. Fleet?

Crazy. Those Camry sales are impressive, given that the fleet ratio is practically non-existant right now.... and there are no incentives...

~alpha

pat

I have nothing but anecdotal data to base this on, but I can't help but wonder if its price point combined with its gas mileage makes it very attractive to many these days.

thegraduate

I agree...The Camry has been seen as an appliance for the road, comfortable and efficient. Now with gas prices going up, people are looking at the same car (appliance) only smaller and MORE efficient.

choe13

cuz its very good on gas and reliable. but compared to the mazda 3 or civic in many other areas, its below par. If u also commute long hours, because of gas prices it is a decent car to own. Personally i wouldn't buy it because i don't commute that long, but if i did, i rather buy the matrix.(best deal toyota has right now)

hansienna

Does anyone have a link to give the sales for new vehicles?
Why are Corolla and Camry outselling the Civic and Accord? :shades:

kdhspyder

Agreed. Also anecdotal evidence but fuel costs have spooked a lot of buyers into more fuel efficient vehicles.

Several, most(?), are cross-shopping late model used vehicles like an '04 corolla/civic with a new '06. There is so little supply of efficient small cars on the used car market that a 2 y.o. Civic or Corolla EX/LE goes for about $14000 - or more. At only a $1-2K differential between a Used vehicle and a New one the New one wins.

We can't buy Used Corollas/Civics cheap enough to have any meaningful price incentive.

It's also graduation season.

ergsum

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/Headlines-Automotive.html

kdhspyder

All the automakers report today:

auto sales reports

Or you can go to each manufacturers website and look for press releases and monthly sales reports.

kdhspyder

From my spreadsheet

1. Camry........177100 . May 43100
2. Corolla.......160000 - May 41600
3. Accord.......145500 - May 37000
4. Civic...........138800 - May 29000
5. Malibu/G6....132000 - May 24400
6. Impala.........114100 - May 23700
7. Altima.........102900 - May 22000
8. Cobalt..........92900 - May 21200
9. FMZ triplet....85100 - May 20300
10. Taurus!!!......83400 - May 16800

hansienna

Most disappointing drop was the Taurus that had been # 1 until the most ugly "Oval" design appeared. Did Toyota and Honda infiltrate FoMoCo to destroy the sales of the Taurus?
(Neither Toyota nor Honda ever designed one of their own vehicles as ugly as the oval Taurus.) :shades:

kdhspyder

If anyone remembers the original Taurus back in the mid 80's it was world-changing design change for me. I used to rent one seemingly every week for 2 yrs at various airports. The dials and switches seemed so modern and sleek and substantial. It was generally smaller and more eye-appealing IMO also.

It surged to No 1. It made me think about getting out of our old Charger into a new Delta 88( :lemon: ) for my ex- and then into an '89 Camry - DING!!! - for me.

backy

Corolla is selling well because it is fuel-efficient, reliable, high quality, low priced (for a Japanese-brand car), has excellent resale value, and is one of the safest small cars (with side airbags) based on crash tests. Those are all things most buyers are looking for in sedans. It has the interior room of the Camry and Accord from 20 years ago. Many people don't need more than that. The main alternative, the Civic, is more expensive, but it too is selling well.

You don't see the Sonata up there in the top 10. I think Hyundai is pushing the wrong car for the times--the V6 Sonatas. They might get more sales if they focused on the I4s, put the 5-speed automatic in them to wring out some more mpg, and place better incentives on them than what they are doing.

Addendum: I just noticed Hyundai heard me and has increased the rebates on the I4 Sonatas to a total of $2000 for June. But still $3000 total on the V6s.

kdhspyder

I think Hyundai is pushing the wrong car for the times--the V6 Sonatas

I concur absolutely. Ditto the FMZ triplet and the Malibu/G6 couple. Somehow if they could drop a Honda/Hyundai/Toyota 2.4L 4c into the domestic vehicles, squeeze 35 mpg out of them and then promote them sales would jump.

backy

I don't think 1-2 more mpg will make all that much difference for sales the domestic mid-sizers. Anyway, the FMZ and Malibu/G6 are selling pretty well without the engine transplant, and the FMZ seems to be doing it w/o lots of fleet sales.

jimmy81

You don't see the Sonata up there in the top 10

Good reason for that. Hyundai still isn't widely accepted onto Main Street USA yet. They should change their name. Too much negativism with it. They build a decent car now.

bhmr59

Sonata isn't in the top 10 for a few reasons as you've mentioned before. 2 quick examples, much smaller dealership network and Hyundai is still growing out of its poor reputation from years ago. However, year to date sales increases of the Sonata are huge this year (75.6K in '06 vs 47K in '05).

Exclusive of the loyalty rebate, the 6 cyl remains at $2500 and the 4 cyl increased to $1500. The sales report I saw did not break down 6 cyl vs 4 cyl sales. Maybe the 4 cyl is within Hyundai's sales goal range or production capacity & therefore isn't being as heavily discounted.

Have you driven the '06-4 cyl? I'm pretty sure you have driven the '05 -6 cyl. If you've driven both, what is your impression of power between the two? The HP rating is close, but what's your driving impression?

backy

I've driven both. The I4 has plenty of power for real-world driving I think--more than enough for me anyway. The V6 was like a rocket ship--the slightest push on the pedal brought a rush of power. Way more power than I need, especially with teen-aged drivers in the house. My wife has a lead foot, also.

bhmr59

Thanks for the quick responce.

Guess I wasn't clear. I meant to ask how the 2006 4 cyl compared to the 2005 6 cyl (which has plenty of "go" for me).

meateater

I meant to ask how the 2006 4 cyl compared to the 2005 6 cyl

Who cares? The stats previously posted clearly show Hyundais aren't on most people's wish list.

Shoot even the Consumer's picks at the top of the Edmunds home page here doesn't even list the Sonata as one of the top TEN sedans under $25K

goodegg

Not many Sonata LXs around here - except for at the hotels (rentals no doubt).

I was surprised too to see no mention of the Sonata in the Consumer's pick section of Edmunds. Kinda like a critically aclaimed movie nobody goes to see.

backy

I was surprised by that too. I actually expected that there might be some votes by those who follow the automotive world for the Sonata, or maybe the Azera, as the Most Significant Car. Why? Because it could be asserted for either one of them that they were the first Korean car to compete head-to-head with the leaders of the popular mid-sized class on something other than price. Some other Hyundais were good vehicles, e.g. original Santa Fe and Gen 3 Elantra, but Hyundai took a big step in the past year with the Sonata and Azera.

bhmr59

I care. That's why I asked the question.

Nobody is claiming that Hyundai's are at the top of a wish list. Most people haven't looked at, never mind considered a Hyundai. I hadn't until 16 months ago.

I see that you posted yesterday that the 4 cyl Accord has the "jam" of an older 6 cyl Accord. I was simply asking backy for that kind of input on this year's Sonata 4 vs last yrs Sonata 6

backy

I did drive the V6 '99-'05 Sonata (not a '05, I think it was a '02) and it was peppy enough, but no more so than today's strong I4 mid-sizers. The '06 Sonata V6 is another story entirely.

joe97

Now, I know the norm but figures become skewed when sales of Malibu/G6 & FMZ (two and three cars) are combined.

1. Camry 43,112 (177,090)
2. Corolla 41,550 (159,992)
3. Accord 36,967 (145,529)
4. Civic 29,006 (138,744)
5. Impala 23,702 (114,014)
6. Altima 21,981 (102,785)
7. Cobalt 21,247 (93,023)
8. Focus 20,391 (80,559)
9. Sonata 17,035 (75,622)
10. Taurus 16,786 (83,287)

kdhspyder

traditionally it's always been Taurus/Sable. For consistency, and since they are the same vehicle from the same plant - F/M/Z seems appropriate. ditto M/G6.. but not Lacrosse. I'm not sure that one is the same.

In fairness to GM & Ford they do sell a lot of midsized sedans. They are just marketed under the radar so to speak.

Does DC sell any midsized auto's? :surprise: They really have given up it seems. DC should rename itself J-V-T; Jeeps-Vans-Trucks.

I was selling steel to the 'old' Jeep plant when Chrysler bought out AM in order to get the Jeep brand. Now Jeep may outlast Chrysler.

backy

The Chrysler/Dodge part of DC doesn't sell any midsized autos... worth mentioning. The Stratus and Sebring are pretty lame compared to others in this class. But they are due for a redesign soon I think.

joe97

Should note almost all automakers use one platform on multiple vehicles - cost savings.

Midsize from DCX include Sebring and Stratus. The new Sebring is coming out this fall, and the Dodge version to release early next year as 08MY.

Just as an aside, for the month of May, large dips for DCX (Chrysler Group portion), GM, losses for Ford as well.

joe97

kdhspyder, here is article I found from last year:

http://www.autoblog.com/2005/12/28/hyundai-sonata-jumps-onto-top-10-best-selling- -cars-list/

I couldn't find the original article.

Now if multiple cars are combined as you listed, I don't think the Sonata would take up one of the spots in the top 10. The same case for this month - and the Sonata actually increased sales from 14K to 17K.

So, based on above, the Sonata should take a spot in the top ten best selling cars for the month of May with sales in the 17K units range.

wolverinejoe80

agreed. sonata should be top 10.

and you can't combine FMZ! that's just stupid!!

louiswei

"They should change their name. Too much negativism with it. They build a decent car now."

Like Tyunta with a slantted T maybe?

:P