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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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It stands out, but only because I still think it's the ugly duckling of the bunch. Right now I give the nod to the Camry, but only to the newly redesigned model. The Accord comes in second.
In terms of style, I would say the best looking midsize sedans are the Aura, G6 and Fusion. The 6 is nice as well, but it's starting to look a little plain. The new camry is stylish for a Toyota but its still not all that great. It's just much better than anything Toyota has put out before in this class. Most cars in this class look decent, if not exceptional. That new Sebring may be amongst the worst looking in this class. I do not like the Galant either.
I do not hope the Sonata is a better car than the Accord. I really don't care which is better, because I don't have a horse in the race. I like the Sonata's warranty, brakes, safety, transmission, and price better than the Accord, but not the overall car. If I liked the Sonata more, why would I be willing to pay $1000 more for the Accord? :confuse:
Anyway, I thought that the new Altima was coming out in July or August. Is it true - December?
I have jumped the gun and bought a wrong car. Could have bought a 240Z with another few months of saving at one time. I had fun with the car I bought, but the Z would have been cooler and a better resale. Another time I bought a new Starfire from a relative that sold cars, when I could have bought a Japan make which was more refined. Just stop and think, is all I am saying. I am trying, as I get older, to stop and think about the purchase a bit more instead of jumping in, and also less swayed by others. And in 1985 I actually listened to what wrong information a salesman had on a car and bought it. How stupid is that. Internet and magazines, now make for a more informed consumer. Just about every other salesperson I talk to quotes the wrong HP or other data. One of the most annoying things are the bad mouthing of other dealerships, or cars. You would not believe the miss-information they give out on other makes of cars. One of my favorite ones is the Ford salesperson, some time ago, telling me that Japan makes of cars typically overheat. Well I told him the opposite was true for my experiences, and that the Mustang I had over heated in hot weather conditions a few times.
Never owned a Japan car which went past midway in temperature. Well except the Stealth/Mitsubishi built machine, which had a stuck thermostat. That was not good!
-Loren
Before the advent of the computer and forums, like this one, would most people ever hear of all the strange things which can happen to your car? We were pretty much in the dark back when.
-Loren
That TSB was probably meant for the technicians. If a tech is going to repaint a damaged car, he needs to have the correct paint code.
Never bought an extended warranty, but I guess it is possible those to pay out big time now on some cars. Honda tranny would be expensive to replace. Since most seem to go on and on like the Eveready Bunny, I personally would not be concerned about owning a car past the warranty period. -Loren
What happened to the finely tuned I4 powerplants they had back in the mid ninetys?
Sure they're no powerplant by today's standards.
But as a reference.
Technology is still kicking [non-permissible content removed], A 4 cylinder engine can pump out 300 horsepower fairly easily, My accord does it.
Honda USED to have a turbo VAN
and they had the FIRST turbo motorcycle.
I understand honda is producing a turbo K series Engine now for its cars, but its still a V6 i think.
I say, drop some four cylinder engines with turbo's in cars and keep it at that.
The supra boasted 320 odd horsepower with its V6 back in the ninetys.
I onno, im ranting.
I say, less V6's.
They're STILL slow, they're HARDLY torquey enough, and they arent really that much better than an I4.
-Loren
(good night from the left coast)
All TSB's are for technicians.
All TSB's are for technicians.
It has the most hp for the class
But is has a horrible hp/weight ratio...for example...
Passat 3.6 (without 4Motion) is 280hp/4753 lbs. or .0589 hp/weight
Camry SE V6 is 268hp/3483lbs or .0769
Now, I know hp/weight isn't the only indicator of performance (drag, gearing and others have an affect) but it is a huge factor and the Passat is very heavy for the power available.
Second argument...
I thought they'd be selling soo well ... Am i mistaken?
The Passat is not selling so well based on resale and lack of incentives to offset poor resale (or cart before horse...caused poor resale with past incentives or reliability). As a former Passat owner, I think they are great cars and should be included in these discussion...actually they have been if you look back
I've owned 3 new VW's and 1 new Audi with a VW engine. They have a lot of issues to live down before I will consider one again. Until I hear and see strong evidence of a major turnaround in their quality and value, they are off the list. I developed a loose loyalty to VW, and got burned. VW taught me that badge loyalty is simply not smart.
Having said that, I like the way they drive, and they always seem to get the exterior and interior styling about right. I would be delighted if their quality and pricing put them in the running for my next car purchase.
One of the biggest disadvantages of the Passat being the high price range (22K-40K+ - with options), largely due in part the strong Euro. That said, it's a handsome car.
Going by edmunds, the passat should reach o-60 quicker than the Camccordtimanatafulanibulant6 at 6.6seconds. I never knew the passat had theses credentials
The price of the Passat makes the Camry look like as much a bargain as the Sonata is to the Accord.
:sick: o please don't bring that up again :sick: . That was a big arguement a day or so ago and posts got deleted because of that. Remember the saying, you get what you pay for. If the sonata is a deal to the accord, than the Aura must be a show stopper/ heart breaker/ jaw dropper next to the sonata. Honestly i dont see the deal in that car. IMO the seats are uncomfortable and the ergonomics aren't great, their ok. But if you paying that much money for a sonata*, then why not just add the $3k for a comparibly equipped camcordtima and get more. o well thats my opinion. I have listened to people saying they "saved for buying a sonata" but i lost the little intrest i had in it and found a like for the passat and strangly the jetta TDI :confuse: . I just don't see it
*for 2007, hyundai changed the trims:
now its GLS, SE and limited with SE and Limited being the v6s and GLS the 4.
The accord still has the same 3liter 240hp engine since 2003. But due to the SAE thing, it went up to 244hp. Hopefully it'll have the TL or rl's v6 next generation. Maybe a 4cyl tuned more like the tsx's
i certainly hope you are aware that 6.6 was referring to 0-60 times
I personally have never bought an extended warranty and have never had repair expenses on any vehicle for which the extended warranty would have been less expensive than just paying for the repair. I have driven many of these vehicles for many years and miles beyond their standard warranty. And this is with driving the supposedly "inferior" domestic brands!
I hate to be a stickler for detail, but that is not why the engine went up from 240 to 244. The difference between the 2005 and 2006 v6 was estimated to be 10 hp by honda, but since the SAE regs adjusted the hp of the accord (and many other japan cars as previously stated) down, the overall hp increase realized was 4 hp. if the old method of measuring was used, the hp rating would be 250, if the new method was used w/out any engine improvements, the rating would be ~234.
I noticed in a few posts the drum of Honda/Toyota's lasting longer, being better quality, ect popping up again. I used to subscribe to that mentality. I have owned 3 domestics over the last 15 years and all have been just fine.. explain why Honda/Toyota group?
- Both the Passat and Jetta have very poor service records according to Consumer Reports (which take their ratings from reader input of owners)
- The Passat runs on "recommended premium fuel" which adds 20 cents a gallon to already high fuel prices (none of the Accord/Camry/Sonata/Mazda6/Altima require premium in their base I-4 and standard V6 configurations)
- Resale is not that great- so buy used if you want to.
But on the plus side, the engineering is wonderful- the real "European" driving characteristics along with some nice interiors and ergonomics. VW's are pretty popular on the East Coast. But I have had my fill of high maintenance costs with these European cars.
"The 2006 Accord ripped through the acceleration test to 60 mph in 6.6 seconds, a tie with the Sonata, then strongly broke to the front to clear the quarter-mile in 15.1 seconds at 95 mph."
link title
Do the math on premium and you'll see.
Easy....if you bought a Camry 15 years ago, it would still most likely run just fine today. You, on the other hand, went domestic and purchased 3 cars over the same 15 years. Any car should be able to last 5 years without major problems.
I can comfortably say that more 1990-1991 Camrys and Accords are on the road today without having had major problems than "domestic" cars like the Taurus.
And I can just as comfortably say that you have no proof of that statement, it is just your belief. If you have proof, please direct me to a web site that lists the percent of originally sold 1991 Camrys or Accords that are on the road vs any other brand.
I can be just as comfortable stating that while the Camcords no doubt are generally good vehicles, the reliability differences between them and the domestics have been blown way out of proportion, and the differences are narrowing year by year to the point where quality/reliability is nearly no longer a valid distinction between the major players.
It would be good if we could talk specifics about specific vehicles ...
While I realize that the number of posts in any Edmunds discussion holds up to no statistical signifance, it is very interesting to me that I have seen virtually no posts from any Fusion/Milan owners to date concerning any problems(there is not even a separate "problems" or "maintenance" Fusion discussion established yet).
The 2007 Camry has over 550 post already in the "2007 Camry Woes" discussion, mostly over a variety of transmission issues, both in the V-6 six speed automatic, and the I-4 five speed automatic, and it appears the problems are not just isolated to an initial "160 or so" that had a defective retaining ring installation problem.
This despite Fusion/Milan having been on the market for a lot longer than 2007 Camry has so far, and with presumably a lot more of them on the road.
1994 Model Year
Production Run: Oct. 1993 through Sept. 1994
Total Number Produced: n/a
Total No. Sold in U.S.: 362,407
1995 Model Year
Production Run: Oct. 1994 through Sept. 1995
Total Number Produced: n/a
Total No. Sold in U.S.: 345,845
1996 Model Year
Production Run: Oct. 1995 through Sept. 1996
Total Number Produced: n/a
Total No. Sold in U.S.: 367,137
1997 Model Year
Production Run: Oct. 1996 through Sept. 1997
Total Number Produced: n/a
Total No. Sold in U.S.: 365,800
1998 Model Year
Production Run: Oct. 1997 through Sept. 1998
Total Number Produced: n/a
Total No. Sold in U.S.: 413,628
11. Awards and Commendations
1994
"Best Import Sedan" - MotorWeek (TV)
"Import Car of the Year" - MotorTrend
"Ten Best" - Car and Driver
1995
"Ten Best" - Car and Driver
1996
"Perfect Ten" (one of the most significant automobiles from the first ten years of Automobile magazine) - Automobile
"Best Loved Compact Car in America" - Strategic Vision
1998
"Ten Best" - Car and Driver
1999
"Ten Best" - Car and Driver
But what i can do is post this link for you. That link goes to the autotrader.com review page and if you click the bottom one for what i put (sorry you'll have to scroll) or any other, they have plenty of information for you, the good the bad and the ugly. I'll post about the camry within the hour.
1992 Model Year
Production Run: Oct. 1991 through Sept. 1992
Total Number Produced: n/a
Total No. Sold in U.S.: 262,531
1993 Model Year
Production Run: Oct. 1992 through Sept. 1993
Total Number Produced: n/a
Total No. Sold in U.S.: 284,751
1994 Model Year
Production Run: Oct. 1993 through Sept. 1994
Total Number Produced: n/a
Total No. Sold in U.S.: 347,912
1995 Model Year
Production Run: Oct. 1994 through Sept. 1995
Total Number Produced: n/a
Total No. Sold in U.S.: 317,786
1996 Model Year
Production Run: Oct. 1995 through Sept. 1996
Total Number Produced: n/a
Total No. Sold in U.S.: 352,053
1997 Model Year
Production Run: Oct. 1996 through Sept. 1997
Total Number Produced: n/a
Total No. Sold in U.S.: 383,187
1998 Model Year
Production Run: Oct. 1997 through Sept. 1998
Total Number Produced: n/a
Total No. Sold in U.S.: 398,548
11. Awards and Commendations
1992
"Ten Best Cars" - Car and Driver
"Import Car of the Year" - Automundo
"Family Car of the Year" (tie with Buick LeSabre) - Family Circle
"Best Buys" - Consumer's Digest
"Top Ten Models in Initial Quality" - J. D. Power and Associates
1993
"Ten Best Cars" - Car and Driver
"All-Star"- Automobile
"Family Car of the Year" - Family Circle Sedan Finalist
"Best Buys" - Consumers Digest
"Top Ten Models in Initial Quality" - J. D. Power and Associates
"Best Model in the $17,001 to $22,000 Price Class in Initial Quality" - J. D. Power and Associates
1994
"Ten Best Cars" - Car and Driver
"Family Car of the Year" - Family Circle Sedan Finalist
"Best Buys" - Consumer's Digest
"Top Ten Models in Initial Quality" - J. D. Power and Associates
"Best Overall Value - Subcompact/Compact Wagon Class Over $15,000" - IntelliChoice Complete Car Cost Guide
1996
"Best Buys" - Consumer's Digest
"Best of What's New" - Popular Science
1997
"Best Buys" - Consumer's Digest
"Best Family Sedan" - Consumer Reports
"Ten Best Cars" - Car and Driver
"All-Star"- Automobile
"Golden Wheel Award - Vehicle of the Year" - African Americans on Wheels
"1997 Total Quality Award - Compact Car" - Strategic Vision
"1997 Top Three Vehicles in Initial Quality - Premium Midsize Car Segment" - J. D. Power and Associates
Heres the link. It to has the good bad and ugly information also.
All this other stuff is pretty pointless. Turf wars help no one.
Accord: Better exterior, less harsh ride, less road noise, tighter turning circle, less rattles
Fusion: Better interior, more power for the V6
Accord: High price must come ↓! Hybrid should be a 4cylinder. Stronger Brakes. Revive the folding rear seats. :mad: Quicken the redesign process
Passat: FIX RELIABILITY ISSUES add the TDI but maybe as a 2.4l TDI instead of the old 1.9. :mad: Price must come ↓!
Camry: good job with the reclining rear seats and interior design
This is the reason they sale a lot in America.
I own a 2003 Camry. I won't say it is fun to drive but it is trouble free
Oops, you said, " This is the reason the sale a lot in America."
I think you meant to say, sell a lot of those cars in America.
They SALE a lot of GM cars
True, over the years, Camry and Accord have proven to be on the average of say the last couple of decades, the more reliable car. The gap is not as wide however as quality improves for other makes. Take a look at Hyundai. Then on down the list, even Ford and GM product may be included as reliable cars, when compared to a could decades ago. I get your point, people will pay more if they think they are getting a more reliable car. The gas prices have helped Camry and Accord sales, I would think. Actually, Civics are probably selling like hotcakes!
I will be interesting to take three cars, the Camry, Sonata and Fusion, and see how they compare in user surveys for reliability for 2007 model year. Somewhat encouraging is Initial Quality-JD Power indicates Fusion is on course for fewer defects. But we shall see. What will be really-really interesting is the data collected on the three cars over the three year, and the longer term surveys.
-Loren
There are many forms of fun. Driving is only one of them. You can also have fun by be with your kids, climb a mountain or go golfing. Sitting at a repair shop, however, is not fun.
BTW, Camry offers no less driving fun, if you are comparing it to the likes of Taurus or some Buick or Chevy sedan.