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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
I thought it would be a good idea to compare the top 6 import mainstream sedans:
Toyota Camry
Honda Accord
Nissan Altima
Hyundai Sonata
Volkswagen Passat
Mazda 6
Moderator, can you add this thread to the Altima, Passat, and Mazda 6 forums? Thanks.
This segment used to be dominated by the Camry and Accord. They're still the top dogs, but other cars, notably the Altima and the Sonata have made some strong gains in the last few years. The 2006 Sonata seems to have grown up to be a serious contender now. BTW, Sonata pricing was released today:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/04/19/043102.html
FWIW, my wife drives a 2004 Accord EX V6, and we think it is a great car.
Toyota Camry
Honda Accord
Nissan Altima
Hyundai Sonata
Volkswagen Passat
Mazda 6
Moderator, can you add this thread to the Altima, Passat, and Mazda 6 forums? Thanks.
This segment used to be dominated by the Camry and Accord. They're still the top dogs, but other cars, notably the Altima and the Sonata have made some strong gains in the last few years. The 2006 Sonata seems to have grown up to be a serious contender now. BTW, Sonata pricing was released today:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/04/19/043102.html
FWIW, my wife drives a 2004 Accord EX V6, and we think it is a great car.
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Comments
Subaru Legacy
It might be a bit pricier than other japanese offerings, but still not nearly as overpriced as Passat. And I'm a firm believer that Legacy 2.5GT is the best performer among the pack.
BTW, I second that Mazda needs to ditch that crappy duratec V6. It's really slowing down an otherwise well engineered car. They either need to develop a new V6, or drop a small turbo 2.3 instead and call it european inspired.
The Duratec V6 in the Mazda isnt a bad engine at all, and its rev-happy nature is suited to that car's demeanor. This year, Ford added a 6 speed transmission which is said to have sharpened the performance of the vehicle. Although I havent yet driven one, I would like to, as the somewhat unimpressive transmission on the last V6 was one of the vehicles more serious flaws. Do people forget that Toyota is using the increasingly antique and fairly thirsty 210 horse 3.0L V6 that debuted in the Fall of 1991 as part of the Camry Gen 3 lineup? Theres an engine that needs to be ditched. (IMO, Toyota's new engine family 2.5L, 3.0L, 3.5L... all derived from the 4.0L which showed up first in the 2003 4Runner.... should replace the current FWD/AWD V6s as soon as possible.)
For what its worth, Accord sales YTD are down 9% from the prior year, Altima sales are down 1.2% and Camry sales are up 3%. That said, Honda is spending an average of $750 per Accord in incentives, whereas Toyota is spending $1250, according to a recent Wall Street Journal article. I'd expect that the Altima and 6 have slightly higher spending than the Camry. As a point of reference, GM is stuffing over $3600 worth of incentives on every G6 sold. I'd say that given the age of the Altima and Camry (both in the 4th model year of 5 year cycles), they are doing quite well.
Among models in the 25-27K range, here is my preference order:
Camry SE V6 (w/ Premium Pkg, VSC, Side Curtains)
Accord EX V6
Mazda 6 S Grand Touring
Altima 3.5SE (w/ ABS&SAC pkg, Leather Sport Pkg)
Having not driven the Sonata yet, I'm not sure where it would fall, but I'd imagine near the top. That said, theres not a model that tweaks the Sonata for sporting intentions yet, so the above crowd may not be the best place where the NF might shine.
I agree that the Hyundai XG/Azera and Nissan Maxima do not belong in the same comparison circle as the others, and I dont think the new Passat does either. Like the Jetta, its price will be signifcantly inflated, and the incoming car is significantly larger than the old. Jrock, I think this was a great idea.
~alpha
We love ours (a 2.5i Sedan 4EAT), but its not without flaws, and the AWD exacts a toll in efficiency and pricing.
~alpha
I second that Mazda needs to ditch that crappy duratec V6.
You guys haven't driven one. There is no way that you could drive the Mazda6s and think that the engine is "crappy". If you come back here and tell me that you have driven it, I'm going to call you a liar.
I don't even have the V6, I have the 2.3L with a manual, but I've driven the V6 a few times and it is not a crappy engine. It is smooth, sounds GREAT, and it the tach needle just loves to fly to redline. My parents have a Camry V6 and an Infiniti I35, so I have driven other good V6s to compare it to.
This year, Ford added a 6 speed transmission which is said to have sharpened the performance of the vehicle.
The 6 speed is an automatic, and it's Aisin, not Ford sourced. Aisin supplies Toyota with transmissions also.
FWIW, my favorites in this class are the Legacy, Mazda6, and the Altima with it's new interior.
The Accord sedan just looks nasty but I like everything else about it, the Camry looks too big and boring, the Passat is a VW and I would never buy a VW, and the jury in my head is out with the Hyundai. Just my opinion of course.
The Altima wasn't bad but doesn't feel as refined as the Accord to us. Of course we didn't have a chance to take a test drive of the 06 Sonata which we plan to as soon as they arrive.
These are just our opinions.
Nissan Altima: 250HP / 249TQ 20/30
Honda Accord: 240HP / 212TQ 21/30
Subaru Legacy: 250HP / 250TQ 19/25
Mazda 6: 220HP / 192TQ 20/27
As you can see, Duratec makes the least amount of power, by far the least amount of torque, and still gets the lowest mileage among front drivers. As far as being "rev-happy" goes, Duratec wasn't too bad. But I suggest you drive the Legacy GT and feel how EJ25 revs up. Accord's V-TEC is also a nicely revving engine, and there isn't much needs for VQ35 to rev high, when you have that much torque all over the rev range. (and again, still gets better mileage.)
And no, being sportier than Camry is not much of a compliment.
I'm by no means bashing 6, it is my favorite FWD sedan on the market. Please take it as constructive criticism. Now, you can call me liar all you want.
2000 Passat 1.8T: nice when new, a fussy piece of crap as it aged. Only runs well on premium, many problems including the infamous "oil sludge" issue even with fanatical maintenance. Would not recommend to an enemy.
2003 Accord Coupe 2.4L: Bought because I hated the looks of the sedan but wanted a Honda (3rd Accord) after owning the disaster above. Excellent in almost every category; 0 problems, 34 mpg hwy on 87 octane. Still excellent cars, but PLEASE fix the looks of the sedan!
2004 Mazda6S Hatchback: Bought for the fun, utility, and so as not to have to look at an Accord sedan in my driveway :P . Strong Points: Driving atttributes, overall build quality in terms of body "tightness", good looks. Weak Points: Gas mileage, road noise, some cheap interior/component parts (heater fan, for example), transmission (5 speed auto, hear '05 6 spd much better) not a great match for the motor. Overall: A more enjoyable car overall than the other two; if the reliability holds out, the better choice by far if you like to push a car to it's handling limits once in a while, and with the hatch- if you need to load a bunch of bulky stuff in it once in a while.
Of course, looks/body style are subjective- but reliablity is quantifiablle and some cars are just not.
Has everyone forgot about the Mitsubishi Galant(do they even make those anymore)
Nissan Altima: 250HP / 249TQ 20/30
Honda Accord: 240HP / 212TQ 21/30
Subaru Legacy: 250HP / 250TQ 19/25
Mazda 6: 220HP / 192TQ 20/27
The only engine that really stands out there is the Honda.
As far as power is concerned, the Honda stands out, but the Nissan is a bigger engine and the Subaru has a turbo, so that's not a surprise. Your mileage numbers are off too.
Well, no one is stopping Mazda from increasing the displacement, or slapping on a turbo. Do people cross shop only among midsize sedans with 3.0 N/A motor?
Plus there's a good reason as to why Nissan VQ-series engines have been constantly praised as one of the world's very best for many years. In my mind its performance and efficiency is no less impressive than somewhat gimmicky Honda V-TEC.
Anyway, I like the VQ. Like I said, my parents own an I35, and I've driven it quite a few times.
I just don't agree that the V6 in the Mazda6 is "crappy". The others are more efficient and powerful, but that doesn't make the duratec "crappy". It's a really nice V6 and it's smoooooth. It's even smoother than the VQ in the I35.
Also, Mazda did slap on a turbo, but on the 4cyl. It's the Mazdaspeed6. It's a couple grand more than the Subaru turbo, but the Subaru turbo is a couple grand more than the Altima, Accord, and Mazda6s. It's going to have AWD, 274 hp, 280 lbs-ft of torque, but the ride might be too sporty for some folks.
Why? It has neither top HP or TQ and gets the same mileage as the Nissan. Why does the Honda engine stand out?
But anyway, I don't want to get in the middle of an Altima and Accord pissing match. I'd take the Altima over the Accord just because it looks better.
~alpha
This is such an exciting time to shop for a car!
That sounds like a good idea. Detune it a little, and offer it in a model that doesn't have 18 inch wheels and a stiff ride. It'd sure be different than the Accord and Altima then. I wonder if the turbo 4 is a more expensive engine to build than the V6 though? I'd bet it is.
170hp 2.4 / 250hp 3.0
Sonata GL 4-cyl, 5-speed manual $17,895
Sonata GL 4-cyl, 4-speed SHIFTRONIC A/T $18,795
Sonata GLS 4-cyl, 4-speed SHIFTRONIC A/T $19,395
Sonata GLS 3.3-liter V6, 5-speed SHIFTRONIC A/T $20,895
Sonata LX 3.3-liter V6, 5-speed SHIFTRONIC A/T $22,895
Destination charge (not included in above): $600
Options:
Sunroof: $850
Sonata GLS (2.4L 4-cylinder engine): Premium Package: Power sunroof; 8-way power driver seat; auto-dimming inside mirror with integrated HomeLink® Universal Transceiver and digital compass - $1,350
Sonata GLS (3.3L V6 engine): Premium Sport Package: 17-inch aluminum-alloy wheels with 225/50R17 Michelin® tires; power sunroof; 8-way power driver seat; auto-dimming inside mirror with integrated HomeLink® Universal Transceiver and digital compass - $1,500
Sonata LX: Sunroof & Audio Package: Power sunroof; premium AM/FM audio system with MP3-compatible in-dash 6-disc CD changer and 6 speakers plus subwoofer and external amplifier - $1,400
I have an '05 Passat GLS TDI, it replaced an '02 Galant ESV6. I love the Passat, it rides great, handles pretty darn good and the fuel mileage rocks (now averaging 37mpg in mixed driving). And, yes, alpha there is more to performance than acceleration and 0-60 times. The Passat might only have 134HP, but 247TQ helps it get out into traffic with ease and it really shines at 30-60mph. Besides, I don't drag race this car.......I drive my family around in it. For me, performance means getting the maximum mileage out of each tank of fuel....and handle good while doing so.
I can't say I miss the Galant too much, the Passat is a much nicer car than the Galant was (and I chose the Passat over an Accord-Hybrid). There is my $0.02
So really it just depends on what it is that everyone is looking for in a car......we can debate this 'til the cows come home and still not get anywhere.....
-PR-
03 Ford F350 SuperCrew KingRanch 6.0L Powerstroke
04 VW Jetta GLS TDI
05 VW Passat GLS TDI
Okay, I guess I'm busted....I guess you can consider me a diesel fanatic
~alpha
Time may change that perception, but right now for the average buyer thats trades every 3-4 years, Hundai is not a serious contender all things considered.
I don't think Hyundai was such a bargain until few years ago, you pretty much got what you paid for. And if everything works out for Hyundai, then they'll become just like Honda/Toyota and again you'll get what you pay for.
As their quality improves and yet their reputation lags behind, that's when you get a bargain. True, resale will still suffer, but like you said yourself if you keep your car for 6~7 years, the difference won't be that huge anyway. Therefore I think Hyundai will offer a great chance to beat the market for informed shoppers for at least few more years.
I base that on the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, a non-profit whose crash tests are considered the most accurate around. They give four rankings for crash tests: Poor, Marginal, Acceptable, and Good. The Camry, Accord, and Passat are all "Good' in both front and side collisions; the Sonata is merely "Acceptable" for front collisions and is "Poor" for side collisions. (The Camry, btw, has improved- it wasn't so good from the side until 2004, according to the Institute--then Toyota beefed it up.) You can see much of this for yourself at:
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/summaries/midinexp_overall_c.htm
Then there are the features. According to a lot of researchers, two safety features make a big difference: head-curtain airbags (which reduce fatalities and serious injuries by 45%) and electronic skid control (studies not only by VW and Toyota but by the independent National Advanced Driving Simulator found that this reduces the likelihood of your getting into an accident by more than 30%). These features are standard on the Passat and new Jetta; they are available as options on the Camry and Corolla. Accord offers the head-curtain bags, and will make stability control standard starting in 2006. But the Hyundai? Neither is available at any level so far.
As for real-world performance, the latest study is only through 2002. The VW Passat was way out ahead back then:
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/summaries/midinexp_overall_c.htm
But since then, the Accord has had a major redesign that improved its crashworthiness greatly, and the Camry has improved a lot too. Hyundai - as far as I know, no progress yet.
How important is safety is to you? --that's a personal choice. But if safety does matter to you, the Sonata has a problem. I realize that a redesign is coming next year and I wouldn't be surprised if it's improved in the safety department. But not yet.
The 2006 Hyundai Sonata is coming next month, not next year and it will offer stability control as well as six airbags standard. It should do better than the current model in the IIHS tests. I'm sure Honda and Toyota will follow Hyundai's lead by making these safety features standard on the Accord & Camry.
I actually got a Passat in '03 instead of the then-new Accord because I wanted skid-control and head-airbags; it came down to Passat vs. Camry and I was drawn to the Passat - preferred its handling and seats. (So far, at 30K miles, it's held up fine.) Next time (hopefully a long way off) who knows. I'll for sure check out the Sonata.
http://www.hyundaisonata.com/
I've read that VSA (Vehicle Stability Assist) will be available for the MY2006 Accord (at least for the EX). A few other features are possible such as LED taillights according to some unconfirmed reports along with a refreshed front/rear.
True, Hyundai has the best warranty I know of. Maybe that takes care of this concern. Or not. What do you think?
In my life I've bought four cars in the first year of their design. The others were two Toyotas and a Honda, all in the 80s. I had few problems with any of them, including the Elantra. All that being said, I don't know if I would be brave enough to be the first one on my block with a '06 Sonata, especially the V6.
I am sure the Sonata will be fine throughout its first model year
Assuming this is the case, I would wait for a while for V6 versions until the new crew gets used to the new factory, and for I4's I would just get one right away. It's been on sale in korea for over 6 months now.
Although I have to say at least in terms of MSRP, V6 gives you a way better deal compared to Camry and Accord.