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Comments
Kennethr: I responded back on March 23rd when you stated your wife's car gets 26-28 mpg while you are stuck in the high teens. I'll state it again. Try driving your wife's car for a week or a couple tanks of gas and have her drive the Civic. This will help eliminate the "driver's error" part. Also begin tracking your gas mileage in writing. Get a small notebook and keep in the glove compartment. Track the miles at fill up, gallons of gas and miles since last fill-up. this way you have something in writing to show the dealership the next time you go in.
How many miles do you have on your Civic?
Again, there are plenty of cars that get decent mileage that you could have considered, that sacrifice utility the way the civic does, why didn't you get one of those? If mileage is all you cared about, a corolla seems more to your liking.
There are a lot of real car enthusiastes who drive civics. This car spawned the tuner culture for goodnessakes.
I feel for you milage. Your just wrong about it being hondas fault. Everyone on this site who thinks this is wrong too, and they have belived so strongly about this apparent 'fact' that the moderators have had to step in as well
thanks for the advice.
I did drive my wifes Toyota Camry for two weeks and got great mileage around town, 26+.
Also I did as you suggested and kept receipts on several tanks of gas and a mileage log. I sent copies of each and every one to the Honda dealership and to the Honda Customer Relations in California. Both places dismissed the mathematical evidence as "driver peculiarities!" And again, the California rep told me it was up to me to prove that I had a problem (and I asked; "Isn't 16 m.p.g. problem enough?" Answer; "No it's not a problem with the car unless you can prove it's a problem with the car."), until then simply "Stop bothering us." The Honda dealership didn't even bother to reply.
So where do I go from here? KennethR
has it ever occurred to you that the "moderators" are somhow affiliated with Honda?
And to say that the salesman probably had "...heard about how good the mileage is..." is totally bizarre. Isn't it the obligation of the salesperson to have more than a hunch as to the day to day performance of the vehicle they are selling?
But you are right about one thing: I should have bought a Corolla. KennethR
All anyone here - including me - is trying to do is help you. If all you want to do is fight with us, there really isn't any way that we can succeed. That would be a real shame. Reminds me of what my mother used to tell me when I was little - don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
Seriously - we really are trying to help. Why not lighten up and let us?
I do want to thank those of your readers that have offered me advice. And I have taken and acted upon every piece of advice given. I have kept a driving log, kept gas reciepts, changed vehicles for test drives, submitted everything to the dealership and Honda headquarters etc. But I am still in the same place: "the car isn't broken", the car still gets 17 m.p.g. in cold weather and 20 in warm weather. I dare not use the airconditioning at $3 a gallon.
KennethR
Your experiment with your wife's car is invaluable evidence that all is not nearly right with your car. You just need to be as tenacious within the proper channels as you are with your posts!
Something is wrong with your Civic or your story. Keep trying different dealers, that's all I can say. Have them investigate the engine computer, check for dragging brakes, check the emissions system, anything (just spitting ideas out here). Either do that, or have the lemon law invoked if you can. If you can't, sell that sucker since it is such a sour spot in your life.
Alternatively you should purchase a scangauge 2 ( www.scangauge.com ) If this is really a problem for you the $170 will be well worth it. Drive your Civic with the scangauge over a set course, then drive another one from the dealer (or rented) over the same course. The scangauge will give you an accurate mileage number.
If either of these (or both) tests show a discrepancy between the cars you then have some facts to base your argument on.
Either way I think you should buy the scangauge it really helps you to manage your gas mileage. My brother averages 37-38 mpg (in warm weather) in his Accord for his commute. He said the scangauge helped him get the mileage up.
Here's another suggestion that will cost you money. Are there any independent mechanics in your area that specialize in Hondas? take a look in your phone book and see if any are advertised. It may be worth contacting this mechanic to see if they have any suggestions or possibly know of an area of concern.
With gas mileage as low as you are talking, my first guess is oxygen sensor but that should trigger a check engine light.
Then, I moved to another part of town, where I drive through 3 stopsigns and 2 lights before hitting the interstate, and then going 40-70mph in various stretches. Total time about 30 minutes, and the Concorde's mileage dropped to 20mpg.
My 07 Civic is pretty new, only filled up twice so far, but it seems like I'll get about 28-29mpg. Based on my experience with the concorde, I suspect with my old commute the Civic would get 35.
1. Acceleration and deceleration - decreases mileage
2. Speeds over 55-65 mpg - increases drag force and decreases mileage
3. Car shape( coefficient of drag, and frontal area)- the lesser the better
4. Temperature - air is denser at lower temperatures and requires more energy to be pushed aside
5. Other factors are A/C, tire pressure, driving habits, car maintainence etc.
As you can see, it is impossible for two ppl living in two different locations (or even the same location) to get the same gas mileage. 25-30% variability is not very uncommon.
As far as city mileage goes it cannot be compared from one person to the next - far too many variables. The easiest way to see if an engine is running efficiently is to check steady state highway mileage. Drive at one speed in top gear for an extended period and check the mileage. This can be directly compared to the mileage of others. Noting the temp, wind speed, weather and any other conditions will also help.
The reason I reccomend the scangauge is that you can tell the steady state mpg in a couple of minutes, at various speeds, and between various vehicles. It is very easy to do a 1 mile run in each direction and average the mpg.
Yes it does cost something, but if the mpg thing is a problem, and a long trip at highway speeds is out of the question, then this will give answers.
Besides - we are all curious to see what the problem is.
* Start car, go 1 mile to drop son off at daycare where car is parked.
* Start car, go 2 miles to drop daughter off for school, parking car again.
* Start car, go 3 miles through suburban neighborhood and congested local highway to get onto interstate, then drive 5 miles at 70 MPH to work.
At lunch time, I'll generally go out within a couple miles of the office, meaning another couple of engine starts. The drive home is all suburban roads (which I'd think is somewhat equivalent to city driving) for about 9-10 miles, no stops.
If this was all of my driving, it would work out to 75/25 city/highway. Based on revised EPA (26/36 or something like that), you'd think around 28-29 MPG would make sense. But all of the starting and stopping is probably what's killing it. I recently got 28 for one tank (my best in quite awhile) thanks to a 40 mile round trip drive of all highway. For that little bit to make a 3-4 MPG difference is telling.
For the record, my previous car was a 6 CYL Pontiac Grand AM SE AT 4D and I was getting low 20's with it. Perhaps it is more efficient with all of the starting/stopping which balances out the mileage advantage the Civic is supposed to have. I don't know.
Anyway, seeing the change with that one highway run, I'd bet I'd get 30+ MPG if I drove longer highway stretches each tank and/or didn't have as many stops. The car is probably performing as it should, I just have to understand the impact of the type of driving I do. An economy car isn't a big money saver for me, unfortunately.
Given that your engine barely has a chance to warm up (it takes about 15 minutes in the winter - oil temp is what matters not water temp), I think your mileage is just about right. Thanks for the detailed explanation of the trip it puts things in perspective.
Remember that while an automatic Civic got 43 mpg on the CR highway test it only got 18 on their city test. Also remember that it is not so much the miles you drive of each, but the time. You may go 50 miles highway and 10 miles city and think you drive 5x more highway. If you spend and hour doing each though you are really 50/50. The stop and go really, really drags the mileage down.
The previous generation Civic with the smaller engine was about the same on the highway, but much better in the city because of the smaller engine and lower weight, so fewer people were getting the real low mileage.
Also the EPA city test is started with a cold engine, but is long enough that the engine does eventually warm up. If you drive 2 miles the engine is never warm - regardless of what the water temp gauge says.
Put the scan gauge in my Accord yesterday. Only took two short drives, but they illustrate the point. Trip 1 was about 3.5 miles and the temp was about 40. The car was sitting for about an hour so it was not stone cold. There were 4 stop signs and 1 light (that I stopped at) I generally went uphill (about 150ft total). My mpg was 25.2
Second trip was this morning. Cold start in the morning, the temp was about 29, the trip was about 1.5 miles (engine not close to warming up), drove .7 miles to school to drop off kids (car idles for about a minute, then .8 more miles to work. There were 5 stop signs. This time I wound up going mostly downhill (120 ft lower). My mpg was only 17.2 this time because the engine never warmed up.
This has been stated before I'm sure but, does everyone top off their tank to the "Rim" when checking mileage? Not all Gas Stations / pumps allow you to control the flow enough. When I fill up at Chevron stations, filling to the rim usually adds about another 2+ gallons. Have not experienced any safety issues doing this, otherwise how can mileage be calculated accurately?
The mileage listed reflects fill and refill to the rim at the same station, regular gas, smooth acceleration, the Tach really helps out, try to keep the Tach in the 2000-2500 range as much as possible when accelerating.
5.3 mile each way to work and back: 28-29 mpg. (1 person)
360 mile round trip @ 75mph with AC on - 38.5 mpg. (1 person)
280 mile round trip @ 70mph. or less, mostly hwy with approx 60 miles local roads and around town. A/c off: 39.5 mpg ( 2 persons)
Around town, to work and back with a good deal of open road @ 40-50mph, good amount of stop and go: 32.5 mpg.
Anyone see any difference between gas companies?
Have yet to hit an all highway trip from full to empty, have one or two coming up.
Filled up last night (cold) using the normal auto stop feature. The mpg was 39.4.
I have satisfied myself with mileage tests, without blowing up myself or the car.
Also, if I were to recommend one thing, a hybrid vehicle for anyone commuting on a daily basis in a typical city / suburban setting, over 20 miles daily. That stop and go really taps into the MPG's on any car.
http://www.hondanews.com/categories/957/releases/2781
You bring up a good point about operating temp. With my 5.8 mile commute each way to work, wonder if synthetic oil would be a better way to go?
07 civic EX 2d Auto. 18” HFP wheels with 215/ZR40 tires. (I mention that since they are considered a mileage reduction factor usually)
Running Ave 29.04, min 26.83, max 30.93. Yes, I keep a spreadsheet on this
Driving: mostly city freeways with bumper to bumper stop and go traffic and bursts to 85+mph (this IS Houston, after all .). Rural driving at 75+mph with cruise where possible and AC is about the same, (the 30.93 trip above). The only time it sees 55 is on the way up or down from cruising speed! No long highway excursions with cruise control yet.
We only have 2000 miles (7 fillups) so numbers are still tentative, but the #s are extremely consistent across several less-than-optimum driving environments. It ain’t 40mpg but it ain’t bad considering the tires and my driving style.
The same driver, style and conditions gave an average 22mpg in a 97 v6 camry (with 200k miles).
And it adds about 5 cents per gallon to your costs. such a deal.
Yes I know that ethanol has less available engergy, but it doesn't seem to make a difference for me.
Note: I'm not driving a Civic, but thinking about it and doing the research.
BTW, they are Honda, fully covered by factory AND extended warranty.
And brand will rarely make much difference as it all comes from the same pipeline, only the additives are different and those can't make mileage differences. Cleanliness, yes, mileage, no. Your differences could be that since you have a new route to work, your style is affected. example: I now work much closer than my previous job, but due to the traffic levels my MPG is a bit lower. pooh.
Except for driving conditions and idling for warm-ups, winter air is denser so it will (in theory) give BETTER mileage. But only if all other conditions are the same, and I would imagine that in Minnesota winters they rarely are! And I would think (as I cannot know) that driving on/in snow hurts mileage since the rolling resistance increases with surface area contact.
But bottomline is that only you can tell accurately what you mileage and conditions really are. In my case, it's not the most important factor or I would be riding a bike....
In my own case, it was bought (sub 12.6k) specifically for a 5/7 day ( daily commute and to go 4 timing belt changes. (105k per belt) So 71% of scheduled mileage is point a to point b. What happens on the other days, mileage wise are probably less but can be more like, I went 600 miles one day.
For me the temp is the biggest by far. 50 degrees plus doesn't affect. 30 to 50 I'll loose about 2mpg. 10 to 20 I'll loose about 3 or 4mpg and under zero I'll loose 5mpg.
I attribute the temperature to turning the fluids to nearly a solid. The warm up time goes way up and some of the fluids may never really warm up. The AT takes over 3x longer to lock up the torque converter when its cold.
AC which hasn't been used yet this year will nock off about 1mpg.
Tire inflation is also a 1mpg hit if they get too soft.
For me same trips to work with a fill-up from Shell gives typically gives 28mpg. Fill-ups from Station X in Wisonsin typically gives 27mpg. About 90% highway miles. So I just don't see a mpg difference with ethanol.
Gotta admit they're just for looks on the EX with auto....;)
I still use regular though.