Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds?

john81

You know there are 2 types of people, those who want machines to control them and those who control machines. Take a look at the additional computer programming and hardware that goes into an automatic transmission. Look at the newly stability and braking systems now incorporated into engine and transmission functions. How much control do you really have (with an automatic transmission) once you realize you're about to go into a skid.
All that additional computer programming is absent in a manual transmission. You are in contol, of not only the transmission, but the engine and the vehicle's stability control. That is the "mark" of a good driver as to how much he/she can control the car in a tight situation. I've driven a standard (manual) transmission going on 30 years and I would never have an automatic.
If I'm part of the 10% who hasn't surrendered to the machine god, then I'm 90% a better driver than you in any situation.
They will never get rid of manuals because of people like us. We have the power to control our cars and make them work to our needs.
John

gogogodzilla

CVT's are an automatic transmission. So is the new Volkswagen DSG transmission.

Both get better fuel economy than manual transmissions.

So automatic transmissions are not always less fuel efficient.

ruking1

I am not sure how you come to that conclusion unless the CVT and the DSG has eliminated the parasitic drag I have spoken of. Now if you compare a Prius and a Civic hybrid each with manual and CVT then it is simply a case of read em and weep. But if you are comparing a TDI 5 speed manual vs a Prius or a Civic Hybrid this is about as apples to oranges as it gets. Especially when a prior post put the numbers to the DSG and manual.

fritz313

I have both a 2004 Prius and a 2002 Jetta TDI 5 speed. Both have advantages and disadvantages. The Prius gets better fuel economy around town...typically between 45 and 50MPG. The TDI with its nice torquey engine does just under 40mpg. So far, the Prius is a bit more reliable. The TDI is much more fun to take on the road, though. It has been tough to get good service on the TDI, but not on the Prius,although the only source for Prius service is Toyota. If more diesels were available in the US (and especially California) I think they would gather a larger percentage of the market, especially in the larger vehicles. As far as I'm concerned, its pretty much a dead heat...

Fritz313...owner of two diesels(TDI and PU truck, one hybrid(04 Prius) and two gas only vehicles(Minivan and sedan)

moparbad

Hybrids have less than 2% of the market.

So not wanting a hybrid is most definitely representative of the "majority".

john1701a

> How much control do you really have (with an automatic transmission) once you realize you're about to go into a skid.

You can't be serious!

Haven't you ever seen those numbers on the shifter for an automatic? They allow you to downshift. And in the case of a hybrid like Prius, you have the "B" mode offering a way using the engine for non-tire deceleration (which is great icy curves).

VSC (Vehicle Stability Control) is a popular new safety feature. No human is capable of correcting a skid like the computer providing VSC, because it has the ability to individual control wheels.

Then of course, there's ABS which grossly outperforms manual foot pumping on the brake pedal.

I suggest you try out these features that have been introduced since making your decision 30 years ago.

JOHN

john1701a

> Hybrids have less than 2% of the market.

Misrepresenting statistics, eh?

Why don't you tell people that the 2% represents the fastest adoption of a new propulsion technology in automative history ever?

Why don't you tell people that Toyota is pursuing sales of 1,000,000 hybrids per year worldwide just 5 years from now?

Why do you fear this rapid success so much?

JOHN

john1701a

The focus of the media for the past 5 years has been drawing attention to the desire people have expressed for increased efficiency and reduced emissions. And over that time, it has become overwhelming clear that consumers want the solution to be easy, just an option they can choose that provides those upgrades without requiring them to do anything beyond just paying extra. And we have even seen how some are willing to pay beyond just what the gas savings will yield, revealing support for reducing our dependence on imported oil and reducing smog-related emissions.

But whenever this is mentioned in the presence of diesel supporters, pointless replies fill the discussion threads. Where is the constructive feedback? All they do is argue that consumers will just choose a manual transmission instead, despite the fact that consumers have that choice already and a very large majority decide against it. They also go out of their way to point out how much cleaner diesel is now, despite the fact that still no upcoming diesel vehicle will deliver a clean emission rating like SULEV. Then it gets personal, where they decide to post negative comments about the hybrid supporter rather than remaining objective.

It's the same old nonsense, accomplishing nothing in the process... with the exception of confirming the actuality that hybrids are indeed fulfilling the desire.

JOHN

ruking1

I think this is a pretty serious question. The fact of the matter is the Prius with VSC can not over come the laws of physics. I would say the EXACT same for the VW Jetta TDI with its ESP. Now another question would be which between the two is better, frankly I don't know. Same for both in regards to the ABS.

ruking1

Actually that was pretty close to the impression I had before I got the TDI vs the Prius. In my case the Prius would have had way more cachet, but unless the cachet was going to result in a multi million dollar deal, cachet was not compelling.

Again when faced with getting another commute car, again choice between another TDI 18,000, Prius 25,000, Civic 12,500, Corolla 13,500, Civic Hybrid 20,000 for a plain jane vanilla 50 mile R/T commute. The one that combined a lot of those metrics important to me was the Civic automatic. For us, the extra money for the Prius didn't make a lot of sense.

moparbad

The focus of the enviro extremist Happy Hybrid Huggers for the past 5 years has been forcing an unwanted, unjustified and over hyped technology on the masses. And over that time, it has become overwhelming clear consumers want Hemi engines and 20 inch wheels far more than they do any hybrid. Consumers that do want to save money wisely see the folly of paying $5000 extra to be disappointed in real world mpg of a hybrid.
To make matters worse, hybrids are not even able to exist without costly tax subsidies and promises of HOV lane use.
Clueless enviro extremists misrepresent the desire to obtain a HOV lane sticker as worship at the hybrid altar.

It is like reading a twisted version of Animal Farm only now it is Hybrid Farm and the mantra is "Hybrid Synergy Drive Good, Diesel BAAAAAAAAAAD.

Hydrogen, Diesel, CNG, and other alternatives to imported petroleum all need to be pursued to allow for the possibility of a solution to declining supply and increasing demand for oil. If the misguided hybrid minority is allowed to influence emissions regulations they will stifle any hope of diversity by molding the regulations to only fit their idea of automotive and environmental utopia.

It is the same old senseless perpetuation of diesel stereotypes and myths from the past to attempt to discredit diesel. Why? The Happy Hybrid Huggers fear diesel will surpass the momentary success of hybrids.

Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated!

vertigen

I'm curious as to how much traction hybrids can truly gain in the market. I think the Camry hybrid is going to be the real test for Toyota. So far they've had mixed results, a hit with the Prius and a bomb with the Hybrid SUVs. If the Camry Hybrid does well, I think the hybrids could be here to stay.

On the other hand, Mercedes is pushing their diesels hard, and it's hard to ignore the compelling advantages a diesel offers, especially if it's a clean diesel. Roughly the same mileage with much less complexity. That's a win win really.

Then there's Honda, about to 'mass produce' a fuel cell vehicle in the next 4 years. Maybe the era of hybrids is over before it began.

Or you could just buy a 4 cylinder G4 and get 34mpg. Too bad they don't offer a 5 speed version, I bet it'd get the same highway mileage as the Camry Hybrid.

boilermaker2

I can only read these posts every couple of days. I have laughed 'til I cried on some of these latest comments. Thanks guys for the entertainment. This board is downright hilarious at times.

I actually like them both. I chose the Jeep CRD over the Ford Escape because 1.) it was cheaper 2.) it had a real 4WD system and 3.) It will pull over 1k lb (rated for 5k). There simply is nothing in the same category as the CRD when planning to use it as an actual SUV instead of a daily commuter.

Both (bio)diesel and gasoline (ethanol) are viable, renewable fuels. We will always mass-produce more ethanol. The energy density will be a marketing issue. GM and others already have computer that already compensate for differing requirements of timing, shifting, etc for each E-xxx blend.

Love to drive a stick but my knee just can't take it.

My thoughts? FWIW, both technologies have the potential of lessening our dependance on those who wish us harm (head removal sheds a whole new light on biting the hand that feeds you). I'm all for hugging trees, but I have to live to breath.

Great thread guys. So when are we going to see that Accord diesel stateside? I noticed the Ontario plates in the pic, can we drive across the border and buy one?

Cheers,
Boiler

ruking1

"Hydrogen, Diesel, CNG, and other alternatives to imported petroleum all need to be pursued to allow for the possibility of a solution to declining supply and increasing demand for oil."

Add to this 100% ethanol. Also staying on unleaded regular which is what the gasser hybrid advocates adamately advocate DOES nothing, NADA, ZIP, ZERO, in lessening foreign oil dependence. What will decrease foreign oil dependence ala consumption 10%, 20%, 30% 40%?

Well here is an illustration, 10% diesel, 10% hydrogen, 10% CNG, 10% (100 %) ethanol= -40% of 97-98% unleaded regular ? Want even less dependence- up to ZERO? Increase the matrix of percentages up to: Don't use ANY foreign oil AT ALL!!

100 % unleaded regular hybrids will consume 100% unleaded regular. You really out to free yourselves from the little intellectual boxes!!

brightness04

And over that time, it has become overwhelming clear consumers want Hemi engines and 20 inch wheels far more than they do any hybrid.

IMHO, ultimately the adoption of hybrids will be due to that type of consumers. Hybrids are compatible with high-output engines and 20 inch wheels. Diesels are not entirely compatible with high output engines, being rev-limited by the fuel etc..

The big draw for diesel on the other hand is low cost, for now.

jonpnj

It seems that all I read lately on virtually every forum/magazine are about the new hybrids coming to market. I think it is wonderful that car manufacturers are now focused on fuel economy. The hybrid SUVs from Toyota/Lexus have been a success because they sold more than they envisioned. They will never sell alot because their gains on fuel economy are not as great as a smaller vehicle like the Prius. GM will be introducing a few hybrids very soon and Ford is comitted to this technology as well. I say bravo to any manufacturer that is at least trying to mitigate our dependence on foreign oil. Whether it be gas or diesel, hybrid, whatever, I am willing to do whatever it takes to eliminate our need for foreign oil. Diesel cars and hybrid cars are a step in the right direction. Not sure why everyone here thinks they can't coexist. That is like saying it is either Coke or Pepsi, not both. There are plenty of buyers for both technologies.

Okay soapbox time then I'm done. Daimler Chrysler does not seem to care about fuel economy in a time where gas prices are going up (again). Why do you need a SRT8 Grand Cherokee when you can get one with a 3.7 ltr six or better yet, a Liberty with a diesel. Who needs over 400 hp in a sedan? They should at least give customers an option for fuel efficient vehicles. Only thing I can think of is that they are filling a niche that the other big 2 don't want to fulfill.

gagrice

Who needs over 400 hp in a sedan?

I'm in agreement with your post. It does annoy me that there are dozens of economical good performing diesels that pass the EURO4 emissions, and are not accepted by the EPA and CARB. Mercedes has proven that diesel is superior to gasoline for both performance & economy with there E320 CDI. The diesel version is faster, quieter and 25% better economy. Mercedes has demonstrated that they can build diesel cars that are SULEV II compliant. It is very short sighted politics that has kept these fine vehicles out of the USA. If I was a betting man I would say the oil & automakers lobby has paid dearly to keep us in high powered gas cars. The EPA could have limited the engine size with regulations the same as they have suppressed diesel engines. Has any maker built a 6 cylinder non-hybrid gas car that can achieve SULEV II? Make that the law and see what the auto makers can come up with.

qbrozen

Diesels are not entirely compatible with high output engines, being rev-limited by the fuel etc.

that's just not true.

get yourself to the dragstrip for a diesel truck show and you'll see the truth. There are big rigs out there that can smoke any sedan. Its quite impressive.

The advantage is in the overbuilt properties of a diesel engine. You can force ALOT of fuel into it and produce tremendous power.

qbrozen

All they do is argue that consumers will just choose a manual transmission instead

yeah, yer right, that's all anybody posted in here over the past 2300 messages .... or maybe that was just one poster ... eh, whatever, all those darned diesel supporters are the same, right?

They also go out of their way to point out how much cleaner diesel is now, despite the fact that still no upcoming diesel vehicle will deliver a clean emission rating like SULEV.

Prove it. Oh... wait ... you can't. Because none have been tried and tested yet ... at least not publicly. Can I prove they will have such a rating? Nope. But I didn't make an absolute, yet unprovable, statement like you just did.

It's the same old nonsense, accomplishing nothing in the process

I couldn't agree more. I'm getting rather tired of the hybrid lovers harping on the diesel problems of 20 years ago and ignoring any good, modern info that many others have posted for their education.
I couldn't agree more.

larsb

There already is a diesel car which is rated PZEV:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/01/more_details_on.html

Not on the road yet, but proves a diesel car CAN be a PZEV if done properly (hybridized)

As the world’s first PZEV-capable diesel, the Mercury Meta One concept shows that advanced technologies that we’re developing promise the potential to deliver diesels that can be as clean as the cleanest gasoline engines. The torque of this engine, when combined with the modular hybrid-electric transmission, also provides excellent driving performance.

—Gerhard Schmidt, vice president, Ford Research and Advanced Engineering

jonpnj

Herein lies the problem. Mercedes are perceived as expensive luxury vehicles and are out of reach financially by most consumers. One glimmer of home is the 1 series BWM that is <30k. This vehicles is a dream come true because it has wonderful performance, handling and most of all excellent fuel economy. Did I mention that it is a diesel?? It is quite annoying that Europe gets all the good cars and we're stuck with few choices.

gogogodzilla

Don't forget the Audi A3. It has a diesel version for Europe that has good performance, handling and fuel economy as well.

And if the Audi A3 stateside pricing is any gauge, it would sell at roughly $25-27,000.

And I would buy it in a heartbeat.

:shades:

winter2

I see something in your writing that is interesting. You some how feel that everyone else's feelings concerning fuel consumption and emissions should be like your own. They should be just as intense as yours are too.

I think you and others are nit picking. It comes down to choice. It is what people want and we will not always agree on the solution as there is no one good answer, but several good answers.

Not everyone likes hybrids, not everyone likes diesels. Some like automatic trans, some like manual. Which is better? Neither. Depends on the type of driving you do and your own preferences. Is one more efficient than the other? Not really. Is a hybrid a better than a diesel? Again depends on the application. If you drive in rush hour traffic that creeps along at 10 mph, a hybrid is generally better. If you consistently drive at highway speeds, a diesel is generally better. Is a hybrid cleaner than a diesel(A controversial question)? In some respect it is and in others it is not. I have presented evidence to show that to be true.

As to having a drive system be at SULEV as a minimum requirement is something you feel should be in place now for all engine types. Gassers did not get to where they are overnight. Emission systems did not appear miraculously on engines with the snap of the fingers. Diesel emissions should have been addressed at the same time gasser emissions were addressed, but they were not. Diesel emissions technology is evolving in the same manner as gassers did, but with technology where it is now, it will happen more quickly than it did for gassers. It just is not going to be in place right now. Will diesels be as clean as gassers or a hybrid? Yes. Will diesel engines be integrated with hybrid technology? Yes, and the combination will probably be cleaner too.

ruking1

Not to take any wind out of your sails, BUT diesel will do what a gasser will do with the added, up to 37% better fuel mileage!!!

So I am not ambiguous for those that tend to look for ambiguity where none exists, a 60 mpg gasser hybrid Prius would be a 82 mpg diesel hybrid Prius !

(like for like with the gasser/diesel difference)

It will do this with less upstream product use
It can be had from a myriad of sources other than buying oil from folks that hate us. Also large multi billion dollar refining plants do not have to be as LARGE to further place refining capability closer to where the products are consumed. One can even process diesel in the back yard, unlike unleaded regular that is almost confined to the multi billion dollar refinery systems. AS HUGE AS THIS IS, anti diesel types TOTALLY ignore or gloss over this.

And with 50/50 passenger vehicle populations there will be almost no premium and the diesel engines can last app 2-4x longer than a gasser.

qbrozen

good for you for posting that. Seriously, i'm not sure any of the other diesel denouncers around here would be so forthcoming.

This is great. A high-powered diesel hybrid. Exactly what I've been talking about and hoping for. They are saying it might not get better mileage than a normal nonhybrid diesel, though, which is interesting. BUT, being much more powerful than a gas-hybrid would give it quite the advantage in the marketplace.

winter2

No, the wind is still there, but I do agree with what you say.

larsb

Hey, I like debate and congesture as much as the next guy (maybe more) but I like FACTS even more.

The first diesel/electric 5-passenger 4-dr sedan rated a combined 60+ MPG which is put up for sale in the USA will magically appear in my driveway.

Maybe it will be a sedan version of the Meta One....:)

zodiac2004

The first diesel/electric 5-passenger 4-dr sedan rated a combined 60+ MPG which is put up for sale in the USA will magically appear in my driveway.


Why does it have to be hybrid. Wouldn't a regular diesel do.
BTW, I'd stay away from a diesel-hybrid for several years if it's brought in by the big 3, if I were you.

Good mpg does not make up for poor build quality.

larsb

It has to be diesel/hybrid because the technology to make a diesel car with those specs and 60+ combined MPG does not exist.

ruking1

60 plus mpg diesels in fact exist. The barriers to importing those models from Europe are way too high. You gasser advocates allow the Europeans to ship us their gas guzzlers in SPADES (like you can't think of any) yet almost any of them has its DIESEL counterpart which are in effect BANNED here???

So do you ever wonder why the European's see us as disingenuous about the mpg issue?

larsb

Yes, they do, but not in this configuration:

5 passenger+4 door+USA

That's what I mean. I want a 60+ MPG combined REAL EPA diesel/electric 5-passenger 4-door sedan.

Not yet existing.

ruking1

Well I can see that you are ignoring your own disengenuousness. Par, for the course.

larsb

What are you talking about?

Im being disengenous about WHAT, again?

qbrozen

Why does it have to be hybrid.

obviously, for even better mileage.

personally, I probably wouldn't be happy with a 50mpg diesel because it most likely wouldn't perform the way I would want it to. I want sport-sedan performance AND 50 mpg. That's probably not going to happen with just a straight-up diesel.

ruking1

Right, from what we have to pick from in the USA what you leave on the table for the performance moniker is indeed app 25 mpg. Given the European diesel counterparts the real question is what performance are you speaking? For example, BMW 3/5/7, etc., series all have diesel counterparts.

Hybrid for all its technical complexity, (designed to be seamless and hassle free as possible, from a marketing point of view) still needs a heavy dose of driver management and input. To get the best MPG (not even the best JUST EPA estimates) for example one has to understand the relationship between the hybrid portion and gasser portion and behavior mod accordingly.

The truth is the same on the diesel side, but you REALLY don't have to get as technical; I.E., you already have a 37% advantage over like gassers.

The savings really comes from that parameter where the hybrid portion is providing the majority of the energy. So if that parameter happens to be the sweet spot of your driving, then it is tailor made for you. If you know that and of course drive so you are in the sweet spot then that is the choice you make.

To me this is most of the reason for some Prius owners' being VERY unhappy. As hybrids become more mainstream, this % can only grow larger.

kdhspyder

If I was a betting man I would say the oil & automakers lobby has paid dearly to keep us in high powered gas cars.

On this I'm in full agreement. Anyone who doesnt think Rick Waggoner and Bill Ford aren't in constant contact with their counterparts at ExxonMobil, BP, ShellTexaco is naive.

What I am shocked at is that the oil companies would have not reacted sooner to drop gas prices and keep SUV/Truck sales stable for their 3 biggest 'customers'. Someone somewhere must have known that with the fragile condition of the Big 2 +C a spike like that put a knife to the throats of their cashcows.

Unless...... someone did know that and wants to put these 3 in more precarious condition.

Here's a scenario: EPA just announced revisions in the mandated FE ratings on vehicles which will likely make hybrids seem less attractive in the showroom. Preliminary estimates, minus 20-30% City for hybrids and minus 10-15% for ICE's.

While at the same time gasoline spikes and makes SUV's and trucks less attractive.

Business is often far from a genteel endeavor.

Conspiracy theorists unite!

qbrozen

Given the European diesel counterparts the real question is what performance are you speaking?

I'm speaking of one that doesn't exist yet. I'm waiting for it to arrive because there is no chance I'd buy one of the current gas-hybrids or current diesels. Sure, I've entertained the thought of a honda hybrid for a commuter car, but only if I kept a gas-guzzler in the garage so I could actually enjoy driving once in a while.

ruking1

Well this bodes well for diesels!

ruking1

In light of my prior first para post, I do not understand your response.

kdhspyder

When this comes in 3-4 years and my Prius is maxed out I will be in line for a Prius or Camry diesel hybrid. I am certain that there is a diesel hybrid on some track in Germany, Japan, Lansing that's just waiting for the entire country to allow diesel fuel.

qbrozen

uhhhh... i'm not sure. i thought you were asking me "what performance do you speak of" when it comes to diesels ... were you not? and i was answering that my imaginary 50 mpg + performance doesn't exist, even in europe.

unless .... ummmm... i don't know. i'm confused now. What was your question again? Or was it rhetorical?

ruking1

It seems to me if the country is indeed truly serious about energy conservation rather than making any number of us "feel good environmentalists" for buying the marketing hype of a particular auto oem, then the time horizon for the life cycle of a vehicle should be much longer than 3/4 years. I have been fully aware even before I had a driver's license of the dictum ; buy new every two.

Auto salvage statistics indicate the avg age of the vehicle fleet is 7.5-8.5 years. My take is the average should be encouraged to go longer!!

In fact, I would argue tha if a hybrid is seen as having its cinder rella/fella point at 3/4 years, this is indeed MORE consumptive, not less.

ruking1

So you want a 50 mpg, Z06 Corvette with 500 horses and 470 # ft of torque?

qbrozen

that sounds good.

or just a 250hp/350lb-ft 3500lb 6-speed sedan at 50mpg.

i'm not a tough customer. either way is fine.

ruking1

Sometimes you have to fire for effect to see what some one else is REALLY saying!

But I would agree 50 mpg in either scenario....sign me UP We can dream eh?!!

kdhspyder

To be clearer it isnt the vehicle that will reach it's peak in 3-4 years... it's just that by then I'll have put nearly 200000 miles on it ( 45000/yr ) and that's my 'trade point' over the last 20 yrs or so.

Of course I could drive less and not work.. an option for sure.

ruking1

Again I fully understand. Please note I mean nothing personally perjorative about your practices. So I hope you take my post as one speaking of policy. Of course within our "free" market systems we all have choice/s.

jonpnj

Does anyone know if a diesel hybrid will be able to shut down when idling? I would imagine that this is an obstacle to overcome. I don't think this feature should even be engineered into the vehicle. I would imagine that it takes more power to turnover a diesel than a gas engine (mere guess I could be wrong). Even without the idle stop, I am betting that a diesel hybrid would be the best thing since sliced bread. Imagine using a renewable energy source such as bio-diesel and also capturing energy when braking. The best of both worlds. I hope something like that comes our way. I'll be the first in line with a deposit!

winter2

link title

Just saw this today! If Toyota is found guilty, could spell big trouble for Prius like vehicles.

jkinzel

I don&#146;t think the oil companies give a darn what the auto industry does as far as fuel economy is concerned. If the big 3 suddenly flooded the market with cars that 100 mpg the oil companies would simply adjust prices to keep the bottom line the same.
One only needs to look back in history to the GM &#150; Standard Oil &#150; Goodyear conspiracy. Is something like that happening now? Probably not. I think the US auto makers are afraid to change what has worked so well for so many years.

&#147;Anyone who doesnt think Rick Waggoner and Bill Ford aren't in constant contact with their counterparts at ExxonMobil, BP, ShellTexaco is naive.&#148;
If they are talking behind closed doors, the auto industry really got the short straw.