Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds?

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    VW Jetta, gas or diesel,the MPG difference is 42%. Diesel would have to be $3.86 in San Diego today before buying the gas version would be more economical. That is taking into consideration the VW gasser requires premium. Until a person drives a car like the new Passat TDI they will not understand how much better the diesel is over the screaming gasser. Smooth midrange power without going over 3000 RPM. It may take time to educate the American public. They have not had the advantage of selection available, in the rest of the world, especially Europe.
  • baseball2006baseball2006 Member Posts: 23
    The issue is the performance and smoothness. Something you don't have with a diesel, but it is improving. If you want economy go with the diesel, if you want performance getthe gasser.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I disagree. I drove both the gas and diesel version of the Passat before I bought. Off the line is the only advantage to the gas version. From 30 MPH to 95 MPH the TDI is better. The gas down shifts all the time due to the narrow power band. One of the reasons the TDI gets great mileage is up and down hills it will cruise at 70 MPH @ 2100 RPM. Great torque for pulling long hills.
  • baseball2006baseball2006 Member Posts: 23
    If you look at 0-60 and 0-70 times the gas version is faster. The V6 is much smoother and refined feeling than the TDI. I personally would rather have the economy, but there is no way you can honestly think the TDI is smoother and quieter than the V6. No way no how.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I did not drive the V6. Not sure if they had one in stock. It was the 1.8 L four banger.

    Gas vs diesel price in San Diego today. Premium and diesel are in a dead heat. The BP ULSD I use is less than the average Premium unleaded price @ $2.65 per gallon.

    http://home.fueltracker.com/home.html
  • baseball2006baseball2006 Member Posts: 23
    1.8 ltr is rough. New 2 ltr with direct fuel injection is very smooth (almost like a 6). Very fast too.

    San Diego Diesel
    http://www.sandiegogasprices.com/index.aspx?fuel=D

    Gas
    http://www.sandiegogasprices.com/index.aspx?fuel=A

    Looks like gas is still around 30 cents cheaper
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I filled my PU at Costco on the 12th for $2.11 per gallon. Filled the Passat and paid $2.65 for BP/ARCO diesel. Today Diesel is still $2.65 and Costco gas is $2.34. I suspect they will meet soon. Always tough to out guess what will happen. Glad I filled the truck. That will last a couple months at least.
  • baseball2006baseball2006 Member Posts: 23
    Good for you! With this Mideast crisis it seems gas is going to keep climbing. I just hope we don't see those Katrina type prices.
  • ej0ej0 Member Posts: 12
    Hybrids provide 3 major benefits:
    1. Extra performance
    2. Less fuel used
    3. Benefits for society in general
    Let's analyze these for the new 2007 Toyota Camry Hybrid.

    Looking at the specifications for the new 2007 Camry Hybrid, I like what I see. That car adds the extra horsepower and torque of the electric motors to the 4 cylinder engine to give what I think will be peppy performance, comparable to the 2006 Camry V6 (despite 200 pounds of extra weight). The price of the 2007 Camry Hybrid has not been announced, but it was said to be $2500 to $3000 more than a model without hybrid engine (plus the hybrid model includes various luxury features that you will have to buy as well; you can't get a stripped down Camry CE with hybrid engine, at least not yet this year).
    An interesting question is: what is that peppy V6-like performance worth? The answer lies in the pricing table for the 2006 Camry. It shows a 2006 Camry LE automatic with 4 cylinders costs $20375 and a 2006 Camry LE automatic with V6 costs $22780. That is a difference of $2405. So, the extra $2500 to $3000 in price for the hybrid engine seems to be only a bit more than the additional cost of a V6 over a 4 cylinder engine.

    Next: fuel savings. Since we're getting peppy V6-like performance from the hybrid Camry, we should compare the hybrid fuel economy with the fuel economy of a V6 engine. For the 2007 Camry V6 that is 22 mpg city/31 mpg highway, while the Camry hybrid gets 43 mpg city/37 mpg highway. That gives the Hybrid about a 51% advantage. Is this advantage for real? That depends on many factors, so let's assume that the hybrid advantage is a bit lower at 40%.
    What should we use for the price of gas in our calculation? Nobody knows how much gas will cost over the next 15 years. However, with a hybrid you have the potential to save a lot during an oil crisis, so it would be fair to give the hybrid a credit for that. So let's give the hybrid about a $0.50 cents per gallon 'long term gas savings option' credit and use $3 per gallon in our fuel cost calculation.
    Assume that gas prices increase 3% per year (the current general inflation rate).
    Assume that a car lasts 180,000 miles and is used for 15 years at 12,000 miles per year. Assume real life fuel economy of 23 miles/gallon for the V6 and 32.2 miles/gallon for the hybrid (that's 40% better). That gives 2236 gallons of fuel savings for the hybrid compared to the V6 over the life of the car, which comes to $6708 at $3/gallon (including the 'long term gas savings option' credit). Since the fuel saving is spread out over time we need to calculate the present value. The present value calculation uses a discount rate. For the discount rate a lot of different numbers can be used. One number that is appropriate for many people to use, is the current interest rate on a car loan, which is about 6%. From this we have to subtract the inflation rate for gas, which I assumed to be 3%, to give a total discount rate of 3%.
    The present value of $6708 fuel savings over 15 years with a 3% discount rate is $5319. This is a lot more than the $2500 to $3000 cost of the hybrid.

    Next: general benefits for society. Hybrids are clean and save oil. During an oil crisis saving oil is good because it puts downward pressure on oil prices. Cleaner air is always good for everybody. Therefore it is fair that hybrid owners are rewarded with incentives such as the new tax credit for purchase of hybrid cars, preferential access to car pool lanes, free parking benefits and potential reduction in other taxes and fees. For instance, in the San Francisco bay area hybrid car owners can take the car pool lane and cross the bay bridge without paying $3 toll. For a daily commuter that adds up to an advantage of $720 per year in bridge tolls saved. (Note: the carpool lane access for hybrids in California expires at the end of 2007 and does not seem to apply to the Camry Hybrid, only the Toyota Prius and Honda Civic Hybrid).

    In summary: the Camry hybrid costs $2500 to $3000 extra, but is worth $2405 (for V6-like performance) plus $5319 (for fuel savings) plus tax credits and other government incentives. Therefore, a hybrid (at least this example of it) makes good economic sense. Personally, I will wait to buy one until they are broadly available, because I would like to negotiate a discount with the car dealer, just like I would do with any other car.
  • vertigenvertigen Member Posts: 4
    So, the extra $2500 to $3000 in price for the hybrid engine seems to be only a bit more than the additional cost of a V6 over a 4 cylinder engine.

    I think you'll find that the Hybrid Camry will cost $2500 to $3000 in price over the V6 model. I'd look at 24K to be the minimum price for the Hybrid Camry, and I'd figure they're going to be optioning those puppies just as heavily as they can, so don't look for too many of the 'base' models.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Let's see if I understand. You are saying the Camry Hybrid is better than the Camry V6? The next thing is, do you think the Camry Hybrid dodged the MPG issue over the Prius?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    There is NO information for where I live. I do NOT live in Chicago or IL and certainly would not purchase fuel there.
    No information=poor information.
  • ej0ej0 Member Posts: 12
    For that extra money you also get a number of luxury items included, that a lot of people might like to have.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    The issue is the performance and smoothness. Something you don't have with a diesel, but it is improving. If you want economy go with the diesel, if you want performance getthe gasser

    Torque=Performance 295 lb-ft makes me :)
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    For that extra money you also get a number of luxury items included, that a lot of people might like to have.

    What luxury items will be included on the Hybrid Camry that will not be included on the regular Camry V6 and 4 cyl.?
  • vertigenvertigen Member Posts: 4
    For that extra money you also get a number of luxury items included, that a lot of people might like to have.

    No, you won't. For the 24K Camry Hybrid you're going to get a Camry with an upgraded stereo and a few extra pieces of fluff. Stuff like a navigation system, Stability Control, and a sunroof is going to push you very close to the 30K mark, at which point you're nose to nose with the Accord Hybrid.
  • ej0ej0 Member Posts: 12
    What luxury items will be included on the Hybrid Camry that will not be included on the regular Camry V6 and 4 cyl.?

    The hybrid includes VDIM (that is advanced traction control), dual zone climate control, a premium stereo with CD changer, a leather-wrapped steering wheel and a bunch of other items.
    See here
    for the official list of Camry hybrid features and here for regular Camry features.
    Personally, I would really like the VDIM system like they have on a Lexus.
  • ej0ej0 Member Posts: 12
    For the 24K Camry Hybrid you're going to get a Camry with an upgraded stereo and a few extra pieces of fluff. Stuff like a navigation system, Stability Control, and a sunroof is going to push you very close to the 30K mark, at which point you're nose to nose with the Accord Hybrid.

    Moonroof and navigation system cost extra. See here for the list published by Toyota.

    Personally, I would prefer a basic Camry CE with just the hybrid engine added (and VDIM). I think that will probably become available in 2 to 5 years from now with a reduced price premium of approx $1500 for the hybrid engine.
  • baseball2006baseball2006 Member Posts: 23
    Ahhh You live in IN. Misread. So sorry. There the premium for diesel is low of $2.29 and regular 2.20. Pretty good cheap prices there. EXCELLENT INFORMATION :)
  • baseball2006baseball2006 Member Posts: 23
    Lots of torque but why so slow to 60 or 70 mph? It could be it needs more hp. Not sure if the TDI has 295lb torque. Sounds too high. I think in the Jetta hp is 100 or 110. In Passat it is higher close to 130 I recall. Still slow to highway speeds. Passing power still not great either. This according to many articles I read.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Still slow to highway speeds. Passing power still not great either. This according to many articles I read.

    Drive a 2005 Passat TDI PD. They are more than fast enough to highway speed. Very good match of power to weight. I have to watch my speed as it slips past 85 without any stress. Cruises at 70 mph just over 2000 RPM. If you want a high performance diesel the E320 CDI out performs the gas version. I think it has a 0-60 time of about 6.5 seconds. And still gets 37 MPG on the highway.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    I drive a Jeep Liberty CRD with a large 2.8L four cylinder diesel. It is a little noisy from the inside but other wise there is no vibration or harshness from the engine. It is a very smooth running engine at any speed.

    As for performance, it is not a rocket, but it is able to get out of it's own way. As for top gear acceleration from 50 to 70 mph, it is quick. I can get from 50 to 70 in just about six seconds while in fifth, and with no downshifting. It is faster in that speed range than my Dodge Dakota that was a 4X2 with a 318 CI V-8 stuck in it. Love that torque, all 295 lb-ft of it.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    The Passat TDI has about 247 lb-ft of torque. Moparbad is referring to the torque of the Jeep Liberty CRD.

    As to passing power, I have plenty of that. Diesels are never meant to be rockets, but they are getting there.
  • baseball2006baseball2006 Member Posts: 23
    Herein lies the problem. The Passat is a little too big for my needs. I really prefer the size of the Jetta but with the Passat bigger diesel engine. I am not a speed racer by any stretch of the imagination. I just need oomph to get on the motorways and that is why I want something that can accelerate to 60 in < 10 seconds. The test I read says the Jetta TDI gets there in under 12 seconds. Even with that limitation, I can deal with it since the MPG is so much better. Problem #2 is the price. No discounts at all and I refuse to pay MSRP. If I can get a heavily discounted Jetta the price difference will be hard to turn my back on. Tough decision. I may just wait until the market opens up a bit. VW seems to have a near monopoly on affordable diesel sedans.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    VW seems to have a near monopoly on affordable diesel sedans.

    Patience is the key to car buying. I hit it right in April of last year. Paid under invoice for a loaded Passat TDI in Oregon. Armstrong Buick. I called them a few weeks ago and they would buy back the Passat and give me travel expenses to boot. They are about as hot as hybrids at the moment. Things change. I'm with you. I would NEVER pay MSRP for any car on the planet. You lose every penny over invoice when you sign the paperwork. And they usually go down from there. If the car is really hot, you may find a sucker to buy it from you. I bought this one to sell when it reaches the magic 7500 miles...
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    With all this talk of higher prices for TDI's being in short suppply, it truly might be a good time to sell! :(:)
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    The only drawback to that would be if fuel prices skyrocket. Here you already have a very economical car and now it is gone. If fuel prices skyrocket, try buying something as economical and as nice and you will lose your shirt. The dealer will be able to charge what they want and they will get it.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Just as most Prius owners are getting ~48-51 mpg in combined driving, the new TCH owners should expect to get 35-38 mpg combined. If they drive exactly the way the EPA does its testing then the TCH drivers will average in the 40's. But they have to drive precisely how the EPA stipulates.

    All vehicles beginning in 2008 will take a hit in the 'City' component of their ratings. Thus it's likely that at that time those that try to use the best features of the HSD system will exceed the mandated EPA numbers. Some do already.

    The MPG issue as you state is really an EPA vs driver use issue. Nothing more.
  • baseball2006baseball2006 Member Posts: 23
    Well the news get gloomy every day. With this nut case in power in Iran, oil prices are over $65bl now. I guess all the diesel owners and hybrid owners are quite happy they have their cars. I think I'll take up walking for the next few months. :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I truly never thought I'd refer to a car (Civic VP) that gets 41-36 mpg as a "gas guzzler". :) But then it is a bit in the math of the diesel (TDI), with ranges of 44-62 mpg.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Here is a pretty good estimate ( w/in $500 +/- I believe ) of the new '07 Camry MSRP prices.

    CE 4c ICE $20500
    LE 4c ICE $22000
    LE V6 ICE $25000
    XLE 4c ICE $24000 ( leather extra)
    SE 4c ICE $23500 ( leather extra)
    SE V6 ICE $25500
    HSD LE $26500
    HSD XLE $31000 ( Navi, SR, leather )
    XLE V6 $30000 ( Navi, SR, leather )

    It puts the HSD about $1000-1500 above the V6 ICE ( 268 hp, 27 mpg combined FE ). On the ICE prices I'm pretty certain because Toyota usually doesnt adjust their pricing from one model change to another.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Walking is okay. I like bicycling. It is faster and you can carry more over a longer distance with about the same amount of energy use.
  • baseball2006baseball2006 Member Posts: 23
    That car is a bit cheaper than yours. I guess we can use the same argument about premiums on hybrids. Buy a Chevy Aveo and you'll save a lot of money over a Jetta TDI. Not that I would do that, but someone that wants cheap basic transportation can't go wrong with some of the following:

    Hyundai Accent
    Kia Rio
    Toyota Yari
    Chevy Aveo
    Chevy Cobalt (my favorite for small car value)
    Honda Fit

    Just to name a few. Simply cars, with AC and a radio. That's all some people need.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yes, ABSOLUTELY!

    Probably most on the list, I would not consider due to a myraid of issues. (important to me, of course) But that is one of the good things about a semi free market system, the ability to pick and chose. Some I can think of:

    1. great resale for Civic and TDI
    2. bullet proof reliability for the Civic.
    3. so far the TDI has been flawless
    4. many consumable parts on the TDI are lasting FAR longer than the Civic.
    5. bang for the buck
    6. durability for the TDI

    Most of those things we really think we "NEED" are things we really don't NEED. So if one wishes to pay for them, then I would say it is definitely ones' nickel.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    XLE 4c ICE $24000 ( leather extra

    The XLE 4c Camry has a TMV in San Diego of $20,937. That is right at invoice with the $750 rebate. MSRP is $23,375 on that car. Leather is extra. My cousin just bought one and kept her 1999 Camry. She does not like the new one as well. Said it feels like a boat compared to the 1999 Camry. She leaves the 2006 in the garage and drives the 99'.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    I mentioned that it was MSRP, mainly as a barometer. As to the SD market I cant comment other than every store and region is different and she obviously got a great deal.

    In the beginning the MSRP's will hold I'm sure for this new model. I had a '97 and 2000 like your cousin's '99 and enjoyed them both.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    This could be the Camry that entices me into a hybrid instead of an E320 CDI.

    Toyota will gamble by making 48,000 Camry Hybrid models a year, even though that decision could steal sales from the similarly sized Prius hybrid.

    The Camry Hybrid attempts to deliver V-6 power with better-than-four-cylinder fuel economy. It features 192 hp from its 2.4-liter four-cylinder engine teamed with the electric motors, which is more power than the outgoing V-6. That means 0-to-60 arrives in less than nine seconds.

    The Camry Hybrid delivers an estimated 43 city and 37 highway mpg, with a range of 680 miles. The car is based on the mid-grade LE trim level, to bring down the price premium.

    The current base Camry was a stripped model, designed for fleet buyers and appealing dealer advertising. But the new base CE model has almost as many standard features as the old mid-grade LE.


    automotive news 07 Camry
  • ej0ej0 Member Posts: 12
    It's a fun game to try to guess the new pricing table for the 2007 Toyota Camry.
    If you assume that: 1. the new prices are the same as the old prices; 2. the hybrid trim level (apart from the hybrid engine) is inbetween the LE and XLE trim level; 3. the additional price of the hybrid engine over the 4 cylinder version is $2750.
    That would give a price for the 2007 Toyota Camry hybrid of $24325 MSRP (without destination charge and options).
    This would be a nice value price and position Toyota well against the competition.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    :surprise: Hybrids Best Value per Vincentric :surprise:

    I do not agree! What happens to the value for those who do not qualify for the tax credit?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    IMO $24325 + Dest is on the very low side for the LE version of the TCH. I think it'll be more in the $26-27K range or slightly higher. Toyota is not known for underpricing its products.

    Also consider that with only 4000 being built/sold monthly that this is not a high volume item. Typically it'll be 2-3 per store... more at the mega stores ( 10-15/mo? )and less for the mom-and-pop stores (1/mo?). If it's underpriced there will be waiting lists out 18 months. That just creates antagonism/frustration.
  • jonpnjjonpnj Member Posts: 52
    May not be the best forum to ask this question but here goes. Once the clean diesel becomes available, will I be able to qualify for a credit if I buy a diesel car? I understand that this was part of the legislation recently signed by the President. I am willing to wait a few months if I can save a few bucks.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Like all things .. it depends. The program runs for several years so it would seem that yes you should be able to qualify. But it depends on which make you want to buy. If it's a Toyota, Ford or Honda then likley you have a 12-18 month window at best. However... ifyou are subject to AMT then you may not be able to take the credit no matter when you buy it.

    Speak to your tax advisor.
  • hondamatichondamatic Member Posts: 26
    Actually that is part of the entire design. Pee and go.

    Eww...at least it reduces the need to make pit stops during long road trips. :P
  • ej0ej0 Member Posts: 12
    Diesel engines get better gas mileage than gasoline engines in part because diesel fuel is heavier than gasoline, contains more energy per gallon than gasoline and has a higher carbon content per gallon than gasoline. If you burn a gallon of diesel fuel you get more energy and more carbon emissions than when you burn a gallon of gasoline.
    A few numbers I found here are:
    1.0 US gallon gasoline (0.833 Imperial gallon, 3.79 liter) = 2.42 kg carbon
    1.0 US gallon diesel/fuel oil (0.833 Imperial gallon, 3.79 liter) = 2.77 kg carbon
    Also:
    gasoline density (average) = 0.73 g/ml ( = metric tonnes/m3)
    petro-diesel density (average) = 0.84 g/ml ( = metric tonnes/m3)
    The difference in density indicates the difference in energy content between gas and diesel.

    In my opinion this sheds an interesting light on the diesel versus gasoline debate. For instance, to calculate CO2 emissions and overall energy efficiency you need to reduce the miles per gallon advantage of diesel by about 15% due to higher carbon content and density of diesel.
    I wonder: does the higher energy content of diesel explain why it is more expensive than gasoline in the US?
    In Europe diesel is much cheaper than gasoline, because governments impose less fuel tax on diesel, so you might say that government tax policy explains the popularity of diesel in Europe.
  • jonpnjjonpnj Member Posts: 52
    It makes no sense that diesel should be more than gas. I understand that it even costs less to refine diesel. Secondly, the experts claim that diesel fuel is influenced by the climate as demand grows in the winter for home heating oil (ostensibly diesel). I read that only 9% of all homes in the US use this type of fuel to heat their home. Hard to imagine how relevant that can be when it comes to pricing. I just hope the price does not get higher when the clean diesel starts coming to market. However, that may be a moot point because I have read that some stations already carry this product and it is not much different in price than the other diesel products. Regardless, the extra cost of diesel is outweighed by the benefit of getting better mileage.
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    In reality, you get fewer carbon based emissions from diesel engines. They are lean burning engines.

    For instance, a Golf with 1.9L TDI puts out 143g/km (CO2) while the 2.0L FSI gasser releases 187g/km. Both have manual transmissions.

    The reason diesel is expensive in the U.S. is that not that much of it is made. Also, since diesel powered vehicles use less fuel, the oil companies want to have the same profit margin that they get when they sell gasoline. Our wonderful government lets them get away with that.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    A couple of points

    1. it takes less upstream resources to refine # 2 diesel
    2. #2 diesel indeed yields app 37% advantage over unleaded regular
    3. diesel is a natural product in the refinement of unleaded regular
    4. diesel taxation is listed here link title
    5. diesel can be refined at a usual 20-30% discount per barrel unlike the standard bearer price of light sweet crude, which most unleaded gas refining starts with.
    6. Given unleaded fuel cars % of app 98% vs 2.3-2.9% diesel (232M vehicles per NHTSA) supply and demand factors do in fact make the cost per gal of unleaded regular slightly cheaper. So it goes without saying that diesel would be MUCH cheaper if the ratio of diesels to unleaded regular was higher, i.e., closer to 50/50 as in Europe
    7. #2 diesel can be defined as a alternative fuel by the EPA.
    8. #2 diesel can be refined from a huge variety of sources and from DOMESTIC stocks and from processes already producing WASTE which currently are very costly to deal with. This alone makes unleaded regular look like a one trick pony
    9. diesel by government figures charges more tax on diesel.link title
  • winter2winter2 Member Posts: 1,801
    Lovely! So people who drive diesels to save a buck and the environment get screwed by the government for doing what makes sense.

    Life never ceases to amaze me.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Actually it is much much worse !! i.e., much better!

    #2 diesel can also be refined from natural gas, LNG and coal. In either case it is even CLEANER than even gasser/hybrid (without the newer diesel emissions technology).

    Conservative estimates of KNOWN USA coal reserves is upwards of 300 years. This also can mean stocks have the ability to be FAR cheaper than crude oil.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    diesel up, gas down

    Well, I'm saving money on diesel and paying just a bit more for gasoline. $2.23 for diesel and $2.27 for gas.

    With one diesel and two gassers in the garage I pay either way. ;)
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