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Our turn to drive the E320 CDI comes in a contest to determine precisely how little fuel is required to propel a vehicle weighing almost two tons over a course of 108 miles charted through the Texas Hill Country. We find that our car burns 2.42 gallons of fuel, which works out to 44.6 miles per gallon along the course.
E320 CDI review
Thank you Rudolph Diesel.
GS450h mpg 27 city 28 highway mpg :surprise:
Yes, I reacted by scratching my head (metaphorically) at how the much lower mpg (than EPA readings) conundrum has not been addressed, other than to say the EPA ratings are not real world, dah!!! , but just glossed over and now put on high end vehicles!!???
Yet on the other hand, the diesel continues to be vilified. In 5 states, the sales of new diesels are BANNED!! They not only gets the EPA readings but in most cases EXCEEDS THEM. In my own case the Jetta TDI EPA is 42/49, yet my range is 44-62 !!! This is really off the shelf technology at potentially lower costs AND a 37% fuel advantage over like for like gassers.
So really here is a real world situation for discussion.
Greater Metropolitan Boston, MA area during the "commute". For folks that do it, it is a rolling parking lot, or a parking lot that rolls.
NO hybrid advocates are willing to say how many hybrids are needed to even make a MEASURABLE difference in MEASURED air quality, let alone a STATISTICALLY significant correlated difference!!!!
Further, if they are so concerned about diesel, then they should immediately BAN the burning of emissions unmitigated home heating oil (not only is the sulfur content many multiple times higher than #2 diesel fuel, but is emissions unmitigated and burns 24/7 in the winter) !! Or force the implementation of emissions controls that current diesels are equipped!!!
Clearly, the realities are to put it mildly disingenuous!!
I have B20 in my tank to celebrate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_Carver
Wow! What an incredibly vague & misleading comment.
Where is your actual data?
What is your lifetime average?
Why didn't you identify the transmission type?
JOHN
My understanding is the laws surrounding diesel are the brain child of one man at CARB. The repressive laws are putting the CA trucking industry in a position of comply or die. The largest has already died. Clean diesel was mandated in CA back in 1993. So we have had a lower sulfur diesel for 13 years. We have paid the price at the pump. When the new laws take affect in 2007, I would anticipate two things. The truck manufacturers could go out of business for lack of sales. The cost to operate a truck under current California rules is killing the operators in this state. They haul cross country and never fuel up in CA.
CARB also mandated the ill fated ZEV car fiasco. It cost taxpayers and GM billions and now they are all crushed sitting in a storage yard.
When will the EPA/CARB folks learn restraint. They need a dose of reality. Not everyone can afford to jump on the latest craze to save a few ozs of gasoline and clean the air to what it was at the time of Columbus.
I just watched a new Ford PowerStroke being accelerated at high speed. He belched out a huge cloud of back smoke. This is not characteristic of a new diesel in CA. In the back of the truck was a big fuel tank. My guess is he crosses into Mexico and fuels up all his tanks for about a buck per gallon less than San Diego prices. That is what happened during the early 1970s down here. People would drive their Mercedes diesels across the border to fill up and save a lot of money. I doubt the Mexican diesel has the designer label required by CARB.
The point has been made here numerous times. I am sure you will totally ignore the repeat of the point, but you do not have to drive the diesel like an old lady, as you would a Prius to get GREAT fuel mileage. So yes if I cruise at 90-100 mph, I can expect mid to high 40's. What can you expect with a Prius? You probably will refuse to answer. If I want to drive like an old lady at 55 mph (or less) I can expect 62 and higher. Again what can you expect with a Prius?
Lastly, I really have nothing to prove by getting better or even worse mileage, whereas seemingly, YOU do!!??
I am just calling it, under different conditions. I really have to say however that even after 71k miles in a diesel, it still amazes me the mpg this diesel does in reality get. Of course, it is way cool that I am able to go 25,000 miles between oil changes. My oem tires look good to go till 100-125k!??? Brakes aren't even close to being half worn. It is also a source of amazement that a 3 year old car with 71,000 miles can be sold for (close to) what I paid for it new!
We have two stations in San Diego selling B20. With 5 more planned this year. They are getting Willie biodiesel. He came to San Diego and was a speaker at the Biodiesel convention last month. Darryl Hannah was also on the roster. It is slowly gaining ground. It is one of those solutions that is too simple for those in control. They have to have everything complex to cover their inability to pass sensible laws.
AAE said it will also use $2 million of the capital raised to develop its Beatrice Biodiesel project in Nebraska, the largest biodiesel facility in the United States. The facility will produce 190 million litre per annum of B100 biodiesel for sale in the US diesel market.
It is scheduled for full production in the last quarter of 2007
biodiesel
It is scheduled for full production in the last quarter of 2007"...
You know your quote points out how absolutely incredulous and beyond over the top things really are!! Lets see 2 million to build a STATE of the ART facility to produce bio diesel, yet it takes almost 2 BILLION just to retrofit an unleaded gas refinery. It is almost next to IMPOSSIBLE to build ANY new 2-4 billion dollar facility!!!
In the worst case (or some would say best case) you can home brew bio diesel!!!!!!!!
This regulatory fiasco is just mind boggling.
Bluetec employs two new technologies that allow this diesel engine family to meet the new EPA requirements for NOx and particulate matter emmissions. NOx reduction is accomplished by way of either water or urea injection (depending on the appilcation) into the combustion chamber. The additional storage tank required by this system will be filled my M-B technicians during routine maintenance every 10,000 miles. Particulate matter (soot) will be removed from the exhaust stream by an in-line particluate trap, which according to M-B, is maintenance-free.
Mercedes' strategy is significant in that it will initially offer this expensive new technology in models with sufficient profit margins to offset the costs- its cash-cow E-Class and large luxury SUV GL-Class. If demand for the new technology is strong, prices could eventually be offset by volume.
What does that mean for the future of diesel VWs here? While VW insists it will remain committed to offering a diesel option here, the cost of compliance may ultimately determine its fate. The TDI is already a $1000 premium option over the standard 2.5-liter gas engine. Will buyers pay an even higher premium for an ultra-clean VW diesel? If not, is VW willing to subsidize the cost of this technology as a matter of principle? Ultimately, a change in tax-credit policy for ultra-clean diesels will probably be the deciding factor.
2007 diesels
Incidently a major diesel "particulate" filter manufacturer is in Hilary Clinton's state.
Where is your actual data?
What is your lifetime average?
Why didn't you identify the transmission type?
By the way, yesterday when I proved someone else here attempting to discredit me had lied, it just got ignored. What will you do?
JOHN
My wife likes the Gecko green Beetle. If I could find one with TDI and DSG, I would snap it up. They are as safe as gold as car purchases go.
..."I'll add that to the anti-hybrid research;"...
I am not sure why you need anti hybrid "enemies". I am neither anti hybrid, nor your "enemy." If anything, you are an enemy of alternative fuels. I do not want the alternative fuels "banned or legislated out of existence" I have also been pretty upfront on this board and probably others, why I decided not to get the hybrid, either Prius or HCH, both fine cars I might add.
It is good folks with attitudes like yours are not the kings/queens.
I really like the (retro) NB styling!!! When I bought a 1970 VW Beetle in 1971 (35 years ago) I frankly didnt like the styling much. But with gas expensive at.29 cents and 30-34 mpg, it was pretty good!!!
My two daughters (both college) didn't want their "DAD" driving a "chick" car!!???
Yeah ,actually a funny story how I got the Jetta instead of the Beetle.:)
Then why won't you answer the questions by providing data to support your claim?
JOHN
What claim? The claim that you claimed what I say is anti hybrid research?
There are a few green TDI’s in Tacoma, WA. You could buy new here then take it home via Chicago, New York, Tampa and Phoenix. Should have 7501 miles by then. Makes for a long road trip.
What is there to support? You tell me you get 49.5 MPG lifetime on your Prius I believe you. Anyone that lies about something like that will get cornered sooner or later. And The gentleman has posted many times that his Jetta is a MT. Is that significant? The end result seems to me more important than what kind of transmission. If you like automatics you should try the DSG. Superior to anything Toyota has to offer in automatic transmissions. They get equal to manual mileage.
If you check the people posting on the EPA website. The 2006 Jetta TDI with automatic is averaging 2.5 MPG better than the EPA estimated rating. That is 14 drivers posting. They did not give their name, rank and serial number so we could not check their credentials.
The Forum is supposed to be a fun interchange of ideas and such. It should not be an inquisition to those that we oppose their view point.
You have made it clear that you feel that the hybrid is the only solution to our energy and emissions problems. You have also posted that the only hybrid that is any good is the Toyota implementation of HSD. That is your opinion and no one is going to change your mind. That does not leave much room for those of us that are not thrilled with Toyota or want to give other alternatives a fair shot at solving the issues we all face.
EPA city/highway/combined 52/45/48
Range 42-54
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?action=mpgData&vehicleID=18608&browser=tru- e
2003 VW Jetta AVG user 47.1
EPA city/highway/combined 42/49/49
Range 34-63
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/mpg/MPG.do?action=mpgData&vehicleID=18615&browser=tru- e
It is YOU that continually seeks to discredit almost anyone who opinion/s' is/are different that your own. Anytime someone advances the discussion or gives you a piece of information to see if you have intergrated it, you react as if you haven't heard a word they said. So why are you surprised when you are ignored?
So what will 1 time or 1,000,000 times of identifying the transmission do? You get 49.5. I am just fine with that. Who has called you a liar for saying that? I get 50 mpg in a commute. Suddenly since you perceive me as "THE ENEMY" YOU now need 5 million miles of certified impartially collected test data. Yet there is a very dissatified population of Prius owners on the mileage issue. Seems like you are doing the Toyota tactic of total denial.
I should ignore you also.
I could go on and on about getting 70 mpg at 70-75 on the interstate, but this may have been under unique circumstances (it has happened to me for a 300 mile stretch). Saying a range without any mention of the conditions is vague and doesn't really help people get an accurate picture of what the mileage generally is.
Regardless of who does this, Prius owners or TDI owners, it is still vague. I for one jumped in on the tailend of the discussion and IMO, it is unrealistic to expect a person to read through the 150 pages to know all the specifics of your commute. IMO, posts about any MPG claims should have the details necessary to get an accurate picture of the conditions and the actual mileage.
And about this very dissatisfied population of Prius owners? Check out http://www.tdiclub.com and see the threads about people dissatisfied with their mileage. So the sword cuts both ways. The reality is, the Prius still has the highest satisfaction rate of any other vehicle.
Since you are curious about the 100mph, one person that did 100 mph for a significant stretch reported 36 mpg. A person that drives an 80+ mph commute reports an average of 40mpg. Driving at 55mph is about 60-65mpg, through extrapolating. Sustained 45mph is 65-70 mpg.
In actuality, you don't have to drive like a granny to get 50+ mpg in a Prius. During my 12 mile commute (speeds from 40-65 and lots of stoplights), I drive at or slightly above the speed limit, take corners as fast as I can and always accelarte with traffic and get from 58-62 mpg.
You also previously mentioned resale values of diesels. Last time I checked (just a few minutes ago), used Pri hold their value pretty well. A 2003 Prius with 70K miles goes for $17,590, about $2.5K less than the MSRP. Not bad I'd say. With 50K miles, it is $19740, just a few hundred under MSRP! This is suggested retail price at KBB.
FWIW, I don't think diesels can't be part of the puzzle, but once they meet CARB requirements, then I will see them as another viable solution. Frankly, I just don't buy the conspiracy theory of why diesels can't be sold in CA and other states. I hope that ULSD and other advances make the diesel more competitive in emissions. Doesn't look good though with VW cutting the TDI's for 07 and sounds like VW has given up on diesels in NA. Either way, getting into a pissing contest about who gets the mileage serves no purpose and makes both sides stall instead of getting the message out that there are fuel efficient vehicles aviable that work in the real world.
2004 Gen2 Prius vs Jetta Diesel ( Man Tran )
Gen2 Prius
60/51/55 typical user 47 ( 34 units reporting; correlates with GreenHybrid values )
Range: 34-61
Climate change rating: 2.9 T ( Best )
Jetta Diesel 5 Manual
38/46/41 typical user 45.4 ( 11 units reporting )
Range: 39-53
Climate change rating 5.2 T
I think you will find that a dealer may be able to snag a buyer for that much. If you were trading that same vehicle in. You would be real lucky to get $10k-$11k for it. Same goes for the VW TDI models that are in demand. I think the fear factor goes up with the miles more so on the hybrid than the diesel. There have been two or three posters on here that had sad stories buying high mileage Prius. Not that it is limited to hybrids. Just more things to go wrong after the warranty is up.
On the VW TDI after 2007. I posted an article that addresses that subject. The question is will people be willing to pay the extra cost to bring the TDI to SULEV compliance. It will be expensive. Not as expensive as the hybrid premium. I don't know if people will pay extra to get a super clean diesel. If the price of diesel remains higher than unleaded it is doubtful.
Diesel Rules
Part of the reason that diesel hasn't taken off here is that diesel engines are perceived by American consumers as slow, noisy and smelly, experts say.
Diesel Audi
Although it makes me wonder if a hybrid would ever make it in Sebring.
Do folks remember that woman rookie almost winning the Indy 500, sans a man's math miscalculation on the fuel MPG?????
So say an Indy car gets 4 mpg. A 37% advantage pumps that up to a whopping 5.48 mpg. She would have made history.
To bring any car, gas or diesel powered to SULEV compliance costs money. I am sure that if you took off all of the emissions systems from any car, the price of that car would drop several thousand dollars. Gassers have had emission systems for years and we have become accustom to paying for them. I believe that a good portion of the yearly price increase in new cars/trucks is related to the increasingly stringent emissions requirements.
I feel that if diesels were presented to the public as nice green cars/trucks with great fuel economy, performance, durability and simplicity then they would probably sell like hot cakes.
While I understand and actually agree with the point you are making, of which the above is a part, the increase in new cars/trucks (year to year) is really the cost of "SEX". This is in addition to the fact the auto oems want to keep up with the cost of inflation. Generally year to year presents no radical design changes. This would be in stark contrast with say the 2006 Honda Civic vs the 2005 Honda Civic. (next generation)
So what you are saying about the "costs" would be true if they were trying to jump one category, i.e., have to meet more stringent requirements.
I would make this swag and please note I am no where near an emissions guru, but I would dare say the emissions for the Prius it NOT radically different from the Corolla. However since the Prius engine is smaller and combine with they hybrid action that makes the gasser engine run app 20% less, that is probably enough to let the Prius get the numbers it does.
The safety and emissions is probably 35% of the cost of a vehicle.
Many years ago VW put an autostop feature on their diesels. It helped with fuel economy and probably with emissions too.
If an autostop feature were put on every vehicle including diesels, fuel economy would improve as well as emissions.
As to the emission systems of a Corolla being similar to the Prius, you are probably right. The combustion cycle on the Prius is different and a little cleaner.
On my CRD, the EGR is watercooled and has some electronic controls applied to it. I am sure it costs several hundred dollars as a part sans labor to install it.
Talking about EGR valves, my wife's 1998 Chrysler does not have one.
VW and Honda TDI's can barely get traction say over 10,000 vehicles.
Now I can really not fault the range of 36-41 mpg I get in the Honda Civic. By most measures I should count my blessings. However since I also have real world experiences with the TDI or more to the point 44-62 mpg AND having a HOOT doing it, I do wonder out loud!
Unless it's your only option, I would never buy a part like a converter from the dealer. The mark-up is absolutely huge.
Again a very well known but probably unfactored is the 150,000 mile guarantee of the Prius CC vs how ever long for the Walker Muffler one?
When I had to replace the EGR valve on my Dodge truck, the dealer was $30 less than several after market vendors. Not always the case though. I have also found that using dealer PCVs and thermostats worked better than aftermarket vendor parts.
Detroit News article
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060320/AUTO01/603200333/1148- - -
Obviously small autos won't have $5000+ increases in the cost of diesel engines. However using the figure stated in the article of ~ 8% increase on top of an already existing premium of $1000 over a gasser, one could construct the following model.
1.5L Gasser engine ( least efficient Baseline )
Est Cost $4000 ( ? better estimates )
Fuel Cost: $1135 ..455 gal/yr
( 15K @ 33 mpg @$2.50/g)
5 year 'system' cost: $9675
1.5L Diesel engine
Estimated Cost: $4000
'Current' diesel prem: $1000
ULDS premium = 8%: $400
Fuel Cost: $977 ..349 gal/yr
( 15K @ 43 mpg @$2.80/g ( current $2.70 + 0.10 for ULSD )
5 year 'system' cost: $10,285
1.5L Hybrid engine
Estimated Cost: $4000
'Current' hybrid prem: $3000
Fuel Cost: $783 ..313 gal/yr
( 15K @ 48 mpg @$2.50/g )
5 year 'system' cost: $10,915
The foregoing is based on the following assumptions ( subject to corrections ):
The cost of a basic small car engine remains constant at about $4000.
Fuel prices stay stable @ $2.50 /g ( see below ).
Diesel premiums and hybrid premiums are real costs and not marketing upcharges; e.g. MB is not charging a ULSD premium according to the DetNews and Toyota says that they are aiming at a prem of $1000.
There will be 100% reliability on all systems with no special maintenance.
ULSD remains at a 10% permium over unleaded.
No improvements will be made in engine/hybrid fuel usage technology.
Another scenario: Due to increasing world demand, unstable situaitons and a strategy of producers to increase the price of their product, the price of fuel increases by $0.50/gal annually for the next 5 years.
The 5 year total 'system' costs would be: ( Gasser - Diesel - Hybrid )
2006 - $2.50 /gal - $9675 - $10,285 - $10910
2007 - $3.00 /gal - $10,825 - $11,160 - $11,695
2008 - $3.50 /gal - $11,965 - $11,735 - $12,480
2009 - $4.00 /gal - $13,100 - $13,080 - $13,260
2010 - $4.50 /gal - $14,240 - $14,040 - $14,045
However 'Resource usage' for these 5 years would be:
Gasser - 2275 gal / veh - baseline
Diesel - 1745 gal / veh ~ 23% savings
Hybrid - 1565 gal / veh ~ 31% savings
Using a production of 8 Million autos annually, beginning this year reduce the gassers by 500,000 annually and increase the diesels/hybrids at the same rate.
2005 8.0 Million vs 200,000
2006 7.5 Million vs 700,000
2007 6.0 Million vs 1.2 Million
2008 5.5 Million vs 1.7 Million
2009 5.0 Million vs 2.2 Million
2010 4.5 Million vs 2.7 Million
The 'resource' savings become enormous.
Air quality improvement can also be calculated similarly.
Now convert all or most trucks/SUV's over to diesel or some advanced diesel/hybrid combo.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/03/21/001604.html
"A diesel Mercedes-Benz ML 320 CDI consumed nearly 11percent less fuel than the hybrid Lexus RX400h in a 3210-mile coast-to-coast economy run across the US. The endurance test, carried out by German magazine Auto Bild, started in New York and ended in San Francisco, with the M-Class returning an average of 31.04mpg and the Lexus just 27.69mpg, despite being 13bhp less powerful and having less torque (pulling power)."
http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?news_id=12868&ref=archive
The results of the Auto Bild test seem reasonable given current technology.
Chicken: Egg? Is the so called "popularity" due to the short supply? I am SWAGGING we are seeing in the finely crafted "hybrid full court press". RUNNING out of gas! (pun thrown in free!
If the logic on this board is any indication hybrids advocates say the hybrids are "THE answer" for those GAS GUZZLING SUV's. One set of relatives just bought a Toyota Highlander hybrid. It is EPA rated at 31/27 mpg. (vs 18/24 gasser only) For their sake, I would hope they don't experience the same gig as some Prius owners (much less mpg than EPA ratings) According to Edmunds.com there is app a $7,000 premium over the gasser only TH. But they live in Marin, CA so the HYBRID cachet there is "PRICELESS"
Me? A turbo diesel SUV that gets 25/30 mpg and above would lessen the want/need for a lot of vehicles.
I have not done a lot of homework in the hybrid SUV area, but I don't think any can touch the mileage of the Jeep Liberty diesel. Many report 26-30+ mpg hiway.
As noted elsewhere:
The Insight never was intended for mass usage.
HAH and HH are incorrectly marketed as V8's into a market base that favors economy over power. Both should die.
The 400h is correctly placed where it belongs but it will always be a small market as most luxury vehicles are.
Ditto the new GS450h.
The FEH is beset with being in the Ford family and until that entire ship is righted it will suffer. It is also one generation behind the Toyota versions.
Now lets see how the next round plays out with:
the TCH
the Hybrid Altima ( Nissan TCH )
the new Hyundai's
the new Ford Hybrid auto's
the hybrid Sienna ( V6 +HSD or 4c +HSD question again )
the new HH due out at the end of this year. ( same ? as the Sienna )
a hybrid Corolla ( next year also? )
If the logic on this board is any indication hybrids advocates say the hybrids are "THE answer" for those GAS GUZZLING SUV's.
see my post just above yours... the big rigs probably all belong as diesels given the present technology.
In order to investigate the "Diesel Premium" for ULSD diesel vehicles, I will use Toyota vehicles sold in UK as an example.
Yaris
1.3 VVT-i 87 hp gasoline
1.4 D-4D 90 hp diesel $1049 dollars increase the diesel option (a 1.09% increase in cost)
Corolla
1.4 VVT-i 96 hp gasoline
1.4 D-4D 90 hp diesel $1039 increase for the diesel option
(a 1.1% increase in cost)
Avensis (model similar to North American Camry)
1.8 VVT-i 129 hp gasoline
2.0 D-4D 116 hp diesel $647 increase in for the diesel option (1.05% increase in cost)
Same trim and same transmission was used, no tricks to attempt to deceive, and no assumptions needed as these are all current models with actual MSRP prices.
1.1% is the largest cost difference, and the nothing more than $1100 for "Diesel Premium".
Something smells rotten with the 8% figure quoted in the Detroit News article. All of the Toyota engines gas and diesel are Euro IV compliant and all of the diesels emit LESS C02 than the comparable gasoline version. And all of the diesels are already doing this on ULSD!
If the domestic manufacturers can not introduce diesel vehicles at a 1.1% and $1100 or less cost increase, our only hope is for Toyota and Honda to introduce diesels in North America.
I have (unless otherwiese foot noted) been always talking about the passenger vehicle fleet and NOT big rigs.
Aygo 1.4 diesel
Urban 53.3 Extra-Urban 83.1 Combined 68.9 C02 109
Prius 1.5 VVT-i Hybrid
Urban 56.5 Extra-Urban 67.3 Combined 65.7 C02 104
Yaris 1.4 D-4D
Urban 52.3 Extra-Urban 70.6 Combined 62.8 CO2 119
Yaris 1.3 VVT-i
Urban 39.2 Extra-Urban 53.3 Combined 47.1 CO2 141
Corolla 1.4 D-4D
Urban 48.7 Extra-Urban 65.7 Combined 58.9 CO2 128
Corolla 1.4 VVT-i
Urban 33.6 Extra-Urban 49.6 Combined 42.2 CO2 159
Avensis 2.0 D4-D
Urban 37.7 Extra-Urban 57.6 Combined 48.7 CO2 155
Avensis 1.8 VVT-i
Urban 30.1 Extra-Urban 48.7 Combined 39.2 CO2 171
Diesel is clearly the most cost effective technology to reduce fuel consumption.
Prius Hybrid is the overall most effective technology to reduce fuel consumption and emissions if cost is not a factor.
Corolla Diesel 5 door MSRP x 132% = Prius MSRP.
Are you willing to pay a 32% increased cost for an 11% increase in mileage?