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A TCUV Corolla with 40-50K on it comes with 7 yr/ 100K PT warranty and 7 yr/ 100K roadside assistance and a $5000 discount.
As per the foreging discussion the Prius is actually a better choice economically than the TDI Jetta in most cases. The TCH will be way too expensive in the near term as a first year model. I'm a confirmed bottom feeder. If I can get a good used car for the 30-40K miles that I drive annually I'll snatch it in a heartbeat.
If you are looking for the mpgs regardless of price, it is a wash. Add price, and the diesel comes out on top. Add low emissions, the diesel sinks to the bottom.
Yes, hybrids are expensive. It is not going to be cheap to clean up the emissions from the current batch of cars out on the road. Sure, I would like it if the hybrids were less expensive...and I suspect that over time they will be. Other than that...
My brother, who stands 6'8", fits very comfortably in the rear seat. And I have yet to run into any 'much higher upkeep and repair cost'. Time will tell.
Good cars are the best used cars and it is hard to beat the rep of a Corolla.
What is the problems per 100 vehicles rating for Prius and Jetta TDI per JD Power? Provide numbers instead of generalizing.
Toyota has much better reliability than VW, however, what does "much better" equal quantitatively?
#4 Euro/NCAP
Are we discussing the North American Prius or the Euro Prius? If the comparison is of Euro models then there are many, many wonderful diesels offered in Europe that are superior to the Prius. BMW 120d
#5 Jetta has standard HBA No skimping! Hydraulic Brake Assist (HBA). This system recognises the speed with which the brake pedal is depressed and, in the event of an emergency, automatically increases braking pressure. According to VW, HBA can reduce braking distance by up to 25%.
#1 excerpt from TheCarConnection
thanks to its luxurious interior, which flatters its $25,390 sticker price and embarrasses pretty much everything under $30,000.
The Jetta TDI isn't just "fun for a diesel." It is a genuinely entertaining ride, even for enthusiast drivers. The engine pulls strongly when it is on the turbo boost and the slick-shifting five-speed manual transmission slips easily into the intended gear every time, with the revs seemingly perfectly matched. The combination is an involving, amusing powertrain that conspires to keep the driver engaged even during the dullest commute, all while sipping its fuel oil at a miserly 40-ish miles per gallon.
Uh...yeah....the reviews are terrible. :surprise:
On Toyota's website '..they should last the life of the vehicle...'
Any large Toyota dealership has at least one Master Mechanic to serice Prius'. On other websites where they have been reporting ownership results for 4-5 years now the only service you should expect is oil, filters and tires for the first 100K+ miles. Ditto the Corolla, new or used.
On the TDI, I do 25,000 mile oil change intervals and expect the tires to exceed 100,000 miles.
Where do you get this from? I will have 100K mi in about 3 years.
Where did YOU get it from? Or is the above NOT your quote?
But to me it seems reasonable in that the avg yearly mileage is indeed between 12-15k. As a matter of fact if one has LEASED their Prius hybrid, I would be surprised if there are NOT yearly mileage limitations and penalties for exceeding them?
I was responding only to the OP who was discussing his reasons for buying an ICE Corolla, new. I simply suggested that a better economic choice was a TCUV Corolla thereby saving $5000. Nothing more.
Regarding service I stated that he could drive a USED Corolla for 10 years without significant problems. Hybrids/Diesels never entered this part of the discussion... except by yourself.
Again to be clear I was discussing his new ownership of a Corolla.... then Toyota's in general. Your comments about '10 yr mark' seems weirdly disconnected.
Prius motor 67 HP 295 ft lbs torque.
Camry hybrid 45 HP 203 ft lbs of torque.
Prius specs
hybrid gas-electric power plant that makes 147 hp and 137 lb ft of torque from its gas engine, and 45 hp and 203 lb ft of torque from its electric motor.
Camry Hybrid
Everything you added made little sense to a discussion about Corolla's
I wrote this:
OTOH only someone with money to burn would buy a new Corolla for $15-16000 when you can get a perfectly good Certified Corolla with 40-50K miles on it for $10-11000 and drive it for the next 10 years problem free.
You will never recover that $5000 new car premium.
And you responded with this: ?
Well the issues here about a used hybrid is particularly anecdotal, in that there is a VERY thin used market. The sword dangling over the head by a thread is of course the cost (unknowns) of new replacement batteries, and of course, the drivetrain. How many folks have actually bought a used hybrid with 40-50k miles and driven it problem free for the next 10 years?
You are out in left field in this reponse.
Your blanket statement rant isn't true for many of us hybrid drivers.
Me for example.
I bought my 2004 HCH CVT new for about $18,500 while a comparatively equipped EX went for around $17,000.
With the tax incentive alone my premium was wiped out within the first year. Period.
I've driven mine over 60K miles and averaged over 60MPG lifetime. Last summer averaged around 65MPG and even had a single tank over 941 miles @ 69.2MPG.
There are other drivers like myself well into the 50's and 60's MPG.
Let's use your own logic and assume gas will always remain at $2.50/g:
2004 EX AT averages around 35MPG.
2004 HCH AT averages about 47MPG.
Over the two years/60K miles:
EX would consume about 1,714 gallons of fuel
HCH would consume about 1,276 gallons of fuel.
I've consumed about 983 gallons of fuel.
EX fuel cost: $4,285
HCH fuel cost: $3,190
HCH cases like mine $2,457
So the average HCH owner over 60K miles would save $1,343 in fuel alone, and cases like mine saves $1,828 over the similar gasoline model.
Should I run the numbers for your $5.00/g figure?
Your Corolla will consume about 2,439 gallons of fuel over 100,000 miles while my own hybrid car will burn about 1,639.
That's $12,195 for you, and $8,195 for my fuel.
I'll save $4,000 over your Corolla in fuel alone.With gas prices on the rise which car is more foolish?
I'm not saying here that hybrid are the best dollar for mile car...but neither is your Corolla.
Other observations/information:
"My 2006 Corolla has a fuel injected, computer controlled, overhead 16-valve engine"
Fuel injected engines are not unique or special today, neither is computer control or 16 valve engines.
What is special and unique are the cars that get 50, 60 and 70MPG and available today.
Am I to understand that is difficult for you to comprehend?
My guess is you are a good "fuel miser" For example in almost any car you would tend to exceed the EPA standards.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/
So I would expect similar mileage in a TDI. In my case for example, under the same commute, I get 50 mpg in a TDI vs 37 mpg in a Civic.
"What is special and unique are the cars that get 50, 60 and 70MPG and available today. "
I would agree!! We really do NOT need higher CAFE fuel standards, we just need cars that actually do get better fuel mileage.
Here is Toyota's official spec: http://www.toyota.com/images/vehicles/2007/camry/specs.pdf
Electric Motor Power output
199 lb.-ft. @ 0–1500 rpm
105 kW @ 4500 rpm
[Comment: That's 141 hp and Prius has 67 hp motor]
Traction Battery Power output
45 hp (21 kW)
[Comment: Prius battery = 28 hp. Interesting, 45 hp is 33.5 kW. I think that's a typo in the spec.]
Those wondering why TCH's electric motor has lower torque than Prius, here is the answer. TCH HSD system adds another planetary gearset just to multiply torque. Therefore, the electric motor (MG2) was probably tuned for horsepower and size reduction.
Why does the following Toyota spec sheet say that the Prius electric motor is 67 HP and 295 ft lbs of torque? Is the Prius motor larger or smaller than the TCH? Toyota is showing conflicting specs.
http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/2005/prius/specs.html
Camry / Prius
Battery - 45 hp / 28 hp
Electric Motor (MG2) - 141 hp / 76 hp
MG2 can make 141 / 76 hp does not mean the battery has to (or can) supply all. There is a 2nd electric motor generator (MG1) to generate electricity. Gas ICE provides the remaining electricity depending on demand -- usually during high power demand. It is a very simple set up with a planetary gearset. MG1 generates electricity by taking away some ICE power and supply it to MG2.
Dennis
So, I restate my original point, a new [Prius] hybrid costs at least $8,500 more than a comparable NEW gas powered Corolla 5-speed which isn't recovered by gas savings of about 2 cents/mile in the typical ownership period (< 100k miles).
Tax incentives would help alter this situation and I'm glad to hear you got such a bargain on your hybrid before they became all the rage. I believe it is too late for the rest of us to save money by buying a hybrid.
You will love your Corolla. Congrats.
Posted March 24, 2006
This past weekend a truly historical event in sports history took place. The only problem is almost no mainstream media outlets gave it even a cursory mention and, frankly, I’m not surprised.
So why, exactly, didn’t the American press jump on this remarkable feat like Tom Cruise on furniture? Well, I hate to break it to you, kids, but it’s pretty obvious that, at least in terms of automotive technology, the fourth estate really does have an agenda.
In fact, I’d be willing to bet a sizable mountain of cash that if Toyota or Honda had brought a gas-electric hybrid number to the same race, it would have caused at least a minor feeding frenzy, even if it had qualified last and blown up on the pace lap. I think it’s pretty safe to assume that the media and 99.999 percent of American citizens, automotively ignorant in equal measure, have drank the hybrid Kool Aid, despite hybrids’ unproven reliability and decidedly under-achieving fuel economy.
diesel snubbed
Prius and Corolla are NOT comparable. Go test drive them. The interior and standard equipments are just in different class. The power and responsiveness of Prius is also a league ahead of Corolla. Doing a comparison infront of a PC monitor and crunching number is such an injustice.
Even if you want to compare with Corolla automatic transmission, in Prius there is no torque converter lag at low speed. If you are wondering what I am talkign about.... You know when you start from rest, you gotta give "certain" amount of gas and wait/guess and see how much the car move? After some delay, the car will actually move? Nada in Prius due to drive by wire and electric motor. There is nothing slipping in Prius -- what you push is what you get.
It is the same on the highway. When you want to pass and press the accelerator pedal, you feel the power right away. There is no delay from downshifting gear delay like in auto transmission. In no time, you are gaining on the car you are trying to pass. This makes the passing so much easier and enjoyable! Prius feels like a V6 passing power actually -- it might be a stretch but really... it performs much better than normal 4 cylinder engine with auto tranny.
Dennis
Without bothering to look up the specs, I can guarantee this statement is false, unless by "power and responsiveness" you mean something else.
Are you going by your seat of the pants feel.
The Corolla is at least 2 seconds quicker to 60 mph, and that's very significant.
I am going by the ease of passing cars on the highway compare to my previous car (Celica which is even lighter than Corolla). One of my co-worker also has 05 Corolla and it feels so "unrefined". It is probably due to HSD instant power response, Prius is a performance upgrade for me on the highway.
I have yet to drive a comparable Diesel auto but I heard that Diesel does not perform well on the highway.
Edit: Found Toyota's offical comparasion. My senses are not lying. I have number to back them up =D
Dennis
If all you are doing is crunching numbers, a statistic like that would be significant. But it is still pointless. Driving values are what's important, not numbers on paper.
Even vehicles slower than HSD Prius accelerate onto the highway from a dead stop just fine. Faster doesn't gain actually you again except bragging rights, since you aren't going to need it anyway.
This is another distraction tactic they use to undermine. It's a pretty old one too. The want verses need discussions concluded ages ago.
JOHN
You should test drive a Passat TDI automatic. The acceleration from 40-80 is very smooth. Hills do not slow them down like comparable sized gas engines. You do not get that downshifting on long up hills that is common with gas cars. The power at 1800 RPMS is plenty for all but the steepest of grades. In town your Prius should be a better car than the Passat diesel. I doubt you would be in my rear view mirror for more than a few minutes out on the open road. You can cruise all day at 90 MPH and only lose 4-5 MPG over the optimum 65 MPH. And of course everyone knows the handling is far superior with the VW. The Prius is not even close for winding mtn roads. Both have their place. The Prius is a very good commuter vehicle in urban-suburban driving.
PS
It is good to have you back posting. I always check out your illustrations. Is THS II the system in the upcoming Camry Hybrid?
http://www.toyotageorgetown.com/hybrid/index.asp
Note the refernces to possible ( current? ) hybrid diesel options.
I also remember reading in passing that some small Japanese diesel pu trucks were at one time made on American soil but shipped to the overseas market, which as folks know are banned in the USA.
Once MTBE is totally out of gasoline, and ethanol becomes the norm, I dread to think of how high the price of gasoline will go. There is talk of gasoline costing near $3.00 per gallon. At http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp, it is easy to see that the gap is closing.
A television show in Canada recently tried the same thing (except the distance was only 200 kilometers). Their measurements (all stated in units of L/100km) came out the same way, confirming our original findings. The traditional guzzlers did really bad (12.0 Accord sedan & 10.7 Escape SUV). The traditional family car with a 4-cylinder engine and automatic transmission did better (8.9 Camry sedan) than the muscle hybrid (9.1 Accord-Hybrid sedan). The hybrid SUV actually got a very respectable result (7.5 Escape-Hybrid SUV).
But the beauty of this particular challenge was the fact that the manual transmission diesel did quite a bit worse (6.8 Jetta TDI sedan) than the dramatically cleaner Planetary-CVT hybrid (5.2 Prius hatchback). Those supporting diesel have been repeatedly claiming that is not the case. Now we have even more proof that it is.
And to ensure that diesel coffin is nailed tight, just point out that the automatic diesel is not as efficient as the manual. It would have done even worse on this challenge. Needless to say, I'm not going to take any of the non-hybrid opposition seriously anymore, if they don't bother to provide any data... because more keeps surfacing that contradicts their efficiency claims.
watch the challenge
As a snapshot, the passenger diesel fleet is at 2.3-2.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet and that is even with longstanding BANS against them. The hybrid passenger vehicle fleet is at less than 1% despite massive hype and tax credits and favorable support FOR them. While hardly a scientific study, all my friends who have hybrids (paying customers) are less than satisfied with the REAL WORLD fuel mileage.
A true example of attepting to deceive and skew driving conditions to favor hybrid. As I've stated numerous times in the past, hybrid is best in stop and go, low speed, dense urban traffic and diesel is best on open highway.
Jetta TDi did much better than I would have expected in the test conditions. TDi fuel economy easily outperformed the Escape Hybrid and the Honda Accord Hybrid.
Results - L/100Km
5.22L Prius
6.8L Jetta TDI
7.4L Escape 4x4 Hybrid
8.9L Camry 4cyl
9.1L Accord Hybrid
10.7L Escape
12.0L Accord
Needless to say, I'm disappointed that MN diesel hater is still attempting deception to support erroneus beliefs. It is impossible to take such nonsense seriously.
The Toyota Prius, for example, gets 60 mpg in EPA tests, but 35 in Consumer Reports' study
CR test of automatic Jetta TDI
The diesel-powered Jetta is slower than the gas-powered version but gets an excellent 34 mpg overall.
Even John acknowledges that the Jetta TDI obtains greater fuel efficiency with manual transmission, and the automatic trasmission obtained only 1 mpg less overall than the Prius when tested by CR.
Diesel Bests Hybrid in Cross-Country Fuel Consumption Test
24 August 2005
ML 320 CDI vs. Rx 400h
The German car magazine Auto Bild has conducted a comparative test drive from New York to San Francisco with a new Mercedes-Benz ML 320 CDI diesel and a Lexus RX 400h hybrid.
Combined results for the test drive, which although it combined city and highway driving obviously emphasized the highway, had the Mercedes diesel besting the Lexus hybrid by 10% in terms of fuel consumption.
Average total consumption for the Mercedes over the 5,200-kilometer trip (3,232 miles) was 9.2 l/100km (25.6 mpg), while the Lexus came in at 10.2 l/100km (23 mpg).
Green car Congress
Omitting to tell everyone about the keys locked in the vehicle, eh? How long did they have to wait for CAA to arrive and retrieve them? Why didn't you include that in your calculation? For that matter, what about the other breaks when drivers switched vehicles? What about food? What about the stop when they had to figure out which way to detour?
No matter. You are attempting to dismiss real-world data without providing any of your own... which is no different than before.
JOHN
You obviously don't... unless the design has suddenly changed and mostly-highway is now what Prius does best. (Hint, suburb driving is the "full" hybrid strength.)
Look at the map again. That was quite a bit of highway driving.
JOHN
I have repeatedly stated that a diesel system delivering at least SULEV emissions with competitive efficiency will get my endorsement.
So far, no one has presented a diesel capable of that. Yet, the hybrids can and do. So I'll support them.
In other words, hybrid hater would be the correct reply from me. Why aren't you endorsing a hybrid diesel? Imagine how much that would clean up the emissions and the efficiency boost it could achieve. How come that improvement for diesel is being fought? Not wanting to keep diesel competitive seems counterproductive. What's up with that?
JOHN
I see that you are still in denial about Camry-Hybrid.
JOHN
The Insight is a decent commuter car. Prius is a very capable and practical car. Everyone whom I showed have been very impressed. With my friend's Prius (before I got mine), we (4 adults) went to Gore Mountain for snowboarding. Prius droved better than the Saburu 4 wheel drive up the mountain. There were no snow on the road but only in the back roads to the cabin.
I know you test drove the classic Prius and weren't impressed with it. Have you been in and drove the current gen Prius? Go try it out. A dealership in Alaska(?) should have one.
Dennis
I was somewhat excited about the TCH until I found out it has a subcompact size trunk. I would have to choose the XLE 4C model.
No dealer within 500 miles of me at work. In San Diego they are always sold or not available for test drive. They want you to sign first before you drive. Goofy way to run a car dealer. It is not the driving that worries me. It is the complexity of the whole hybrid system. Unlike others my first concern is MPG. If the emissions are good that is great. If you get the best mileage with a diesel and it is not as clean. So be it. Any diesel car you can buy today in the USA is cleaner than any car from 5 years ago. Plus it puts out less GHG than current comparable cars.
I can get into Prius and drive off in 5 seconds. I am still getting used to it (and tuning) but the procedure is very simple and quick.
1) As you reach the door handle, Prius unlocks and you open the door.
2) Sit down and put your right foot on the brake pedal and hit the power button with my right hand.
3) Grab the seat belt and click it. By now, the "Ready" light is on.
4) Put the car in "D" and go.
The car is mechanically simpler than traditional cars. It does have more powerful electronics. Even, if you fear the electronics, this car is still very simple to operate.
Modern Diesel are using more and more electronics as well to control increasing pressure and combustion to reduce emission. Electronics are our friend, not enemy.
Dennis