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Comments
2.93 diesel
vs
2.84 unleade regular
and
3.03 premium
I do not know the % of cars that "require" premium. But I am SWAGGING the % is greatter than the 2.3-2.9% diesel population.
So yes even in CA unleaded premium is more than diesel.
J.D. Power Reports: Global Demand for Diesel-Fueled Light Vehicles to Nearly Double During the Next 10 Years
Diesel Share of U.S. Light-Vehicle Sales Is Expected to Reach 26 Percent Within the Next Decade
WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif., April 13 -- Global demand for diesel light vehicles is expected to nearly double over the next 10 years -- increasing from 15 million sales in 2005 to 29 million in 2015 -- according to J.D. Power Automotive Forecasting.(SM)
J.D. Power Automotive Forecasting projects the global market share for diesel-powered cars and light trucks will reach 26 percent by 2015 -- an increase from 18 percent in 2005. While Western Europe has been a key driver in the rapid growth of diesel vehicle demand for the past 10 years, increased demand from consumers in other regions will promote growth during the next decade.
"As a proven, cost-effective and 'off-the-shelf' solution, diesel has a head start over other emerging fuel-efficient technologies," said Alastair Bedwell, senior manager for J.D. Power Automotive Forecasting. "With energy prices at elevated levels and new regulatory pressure to improve light-truck fuel efficiency, a range of fuel-efficient alternatives to the conventional gasoline engine will be required. The United States and Canada are markets with enormous potential for diesel light-vehicle sales."
The diesel share of U.S. light-vehicle sales is expected to increase from 3.2 percent in 2005 to more than 10 percent by the middle of the next decade. Conversely, prospects for diesel light-vehicle demand within the key Asian markets remains mixed.
Diesel is also capable of being refined from other than foreign oil (actually a HUGE variety of sources). And believe it or not, FAR LESS COST !!!!
It’s killing me to sit back and NOT buy a diesel, but the 93 Explorer keeps going strong and I can’t justify spending money to replace something that is not broken.
The tight fist of a cheap-skate fighting with the lust for a new diesel that can’t be financially justified. I’m about to bight off my lower lip. :confuse:
The wife insist we must finish some financial obligations (kid in college) before we spend money on frivolous items like a new car, :surprise: (her words, not mine).
Call me a pessimist, but I can see it coming: It’s January 2007, all the Jetta TDI’s and Jeep Liberty CRD’s are sold off the lots because of high gas prices. It’s about 7 to 9 months before the new bread of clean diesels may or may not arrive on the show room floors. And yes, the 93 Explorer is DOA. :sick:
It’s just the two of us, we might be able to be a one car family for 9 months.
Hang tough and Ford may put a nice 6C diesel in the Explorer and boost it back to the position it has held for the last several years. Nothing offered by the Japanese competes with the Explorer when it comes to sales.
Calif. HOV Lanes See Prius Backlash
Affluenza? TiVo thumb? The latest affliction for today's image-heavy consumers may be Prius backlash, according to a story in the Los Angeles Times. The Times reports that what was once a perk afforded to hybrid drivers - use of the state's HOV lanes - is turning public opinion against drivers of the gas-electric cars. As the number of hybrids has increased, the HOV lanes have grown more crowded, the paper reports. And that's driving other drivers crazy. Prius drivers are finding hostility from other drivers for reasons as varied as driving slowly to increase fuel economy, to the simple privilege of driving solo in the lanes designated for carpoolers. The state is set to study the effects of mass hybrid ownership and how it might clog the HOV lanes; the paper also says the state of Virginia has already modified its lane rules, only allowing hybrids with three passengers use the lanes.
If the Explorer died today we could always get another car. I’m sure the emergency workers could use the jaws of life to pry open my fist to get the money. :P
This is just business as usual in the life of a product. Now 2-1/2 years into it's cycle the Prius has grabbed all the early adopters and now has to compete for the public's attention like every other vehicle. The difference will be shown if incentives ever are used to move the last of this gen2 before the next one comes out in 18 mo's.
The question about fuel savings has been put to rest on the Prius a while ago. Another media ( radio ) report with misinformation.
I think after the techno geeks got their Prius, the remaining buyers were wooed by high gas prices and HOV access. Just before Katrina and $3 gas, Poway Toyota had 11 Prii on the lot and giving discounts. They disappeared with the high gas prices. No reason for HOV sales in San Diego. Only buyers from LA looking for a deal.
Paraphrasing: what kind of metric is energy per mile? He apparently indicated that while he used 250,000 miles for the life of some trucks he used 100,000 miles for the life of a Prius ... based on what Toyota was telling the public. Huh? Now there's rigorous methodology and investigation!!!
I think Toyota stated the battery would last the Life of the Prius. I believe the Life Cycle Analysis that Toyota published was based on 150,000 KM. If Toyota believed what they said, they would have voluntarily warranted the hybrid system for 150K miles. Instead they warranted for 100k miles except where forced in the CARB states. It is a gamble that Toyota is hoping to win. Only time will tell.
Absent proof of a limited lifespan all vehicles should be compared based on a standard mileage denominator, say 150K or 200K. It changes all the values of the study.
Is it really misinformation or is there truly something here that some people do not want to look at?
Trucks tend to be kept longer or 8.5 years. Since 8.5 years on say a 2003/2004 Prius would be 2012, it is pretty apparent there is no reasonable REAL data!!?? Since the Prius is a car, it is a leap to project owners will keep it like a truck. This MIGHT be especially true since Prius owners face a MUCH higher cost cinderfella/cinderella date as stated by the manufacturer.
So if it was merely a "replaceable item" like a 50-85 dollar lead battery, then yes, the Prius is being vilified without real warrant. But at $140 per and 28 batteries, not including labor, I think folks can do the math.
The good news of course would be to buy the Prius at 7 years for little more than salvage value and drive it another 150,000 and if it dies? SO WHAT??
I don't think you really want to include the Prius Classic that just had a recall on leaking batteries, do you? No Prius in the US has reached the 8 year warranty. That will tell the true tale.
I don't think you really want to include the Prius Classic that just had a recall on leaking batteries, do you? No Prius in the US has reached the 8 year warranty. That will tell the true tale. "
I also would agree. If on the odd case, some person went at or over the warranty mileage, I wonder how much they would have to pony up to fix the batteries. I ask this in recognition of the worst case FINE print.
People are not "Just finding out".
Back in early-mid 2003 when I began my research practically all reports, publications and mechanics said the technology is "Not quite there yet" (As my good friend master mechanic put it)
The anti-hybrid campaign continues. When was the last time you read in a publication the 50's and 60's MPG that many of us hybrid enjoy?Did you read that most hybrid owners are very happy with their cars and find good value in what they've bought?
I didn't think so.
Instead it's only CR's crummy 38MPG HCH quote and how Mr.Smith is upset because he still has to take responsiblity for how he uses the foot-feed.
If I would have listened to those voices I'd have lost a ton of money since I've had my 2004 HCH.
When I bought my HCH there were a few on the lot to choose from, while Prius had a 6 to 14 month wait.
I remember reading back in 2004-2005 that Toyota was ramping up production for the demand.
Even with that I have yet to find a dealer in the area that has one on the lot. I can't even test drive one.
I was at my Honda dealer and they reported a 1.5 month wait for the HCH.
Despite the vastly negative press I've just read:
"April 6, 2006 Hybrid Sales in US Climbed 7.5% in March"
"Hybrid sales in February 2006 were up 43.8 percent from same period 2005"
(Can't post link for forum violation)
Look at all the grumblings over the last few decades over new technology.
Many thought mechanical points were better. ECM was a bad idea for multiple reasons. Heck I remember arguments against the steering wheel lock system for what they imagined....and even airbag systems for possible false deployment and the "gun" pointed "Right at the drivers chest" could Fire and hurt you.
Now we have newer, better, more efficient technology and the reaction continues.
"No Prius in the US has reached the 8 year warranty"
I don't understand the issue presented, it's under warranty. It's more than I can say for many other regular vehicles which would already be out of warranty.
How much is an out of warranty automatic transaxle replacement these days?
I don't see a real issue for the hybrid owners that put mega miles on their cars. 100k to 150k is a good warranty. It is NOT good for those that put 5k-6k miles per year and like to keep a car for 10-15 yrs. That is at issue here. Toyota, Honda & Lexus are famous for high cost repairs after the warranty. They don't want you to keep your car for 10 or more years. They like it when you trade in at 4-6 yrs. Several pro hybrid poster's have equated the transaxle to the battery and hybrid system. Not a good comparison. Remember back, the Prius owner with the $11k HSD bill facing them? Or all the HCH CVT failures at $5k. People that buy hybrids are going to have to face the fact that on average they have 33% more parts to break than the non-hybrid equivelent vehicles. When CR stated that hybrid maintenance would be higher than non-hybrid, they know that more parts mean higher maintenance.
If I was facing a 50 plus mile commute each day, I would consider the HCH as a choice. Now that low sulfur diesel in CA is equal priced with unleaded regular. I think the VW TDI would win out.
The first highlighted statement is just false.
The second one is pure supposition based on global experience with all vehicles not specifically with Toyota's nor Honda's. If they were to base it on my 16 yrs of Camry's and 500,000+ miles the conclusion is that nothing ever breaks at anytime....ever. Therefore the Prius can be expected to last forever.... which is as silly a statement as yours.
Being afraid of new technology is your right. Not being afraid of Toyota's technological expertise is my right base on my prior experience.
For some the world may seem flat and falling off is a valid concern. For others the world just might be round.
How many generations of Camry did they build before they were that reliable? I know the 1990 Camry was horrible on brakes. I spent the money keeping one working. I am just trying to point out that time and mileage are not directly related in cars. And if you think that more complexity does not mean more expense down the road, I got a bridge for sale. 15 years ago hardly anyone bought an extended warranty. Now you are crazy not to buy it. What does that mean to you?
The first highlighted statement is just false
You are a Toyota dealer. You tell me what it will cost to replace the Prius Classic HSD system. I read on this forum that it was $11k.
Maybe the poster was trolling and made up a situation in order to put doubts in those easily influenced?
You are making my point. A 4 year old car not paid for is now worthless due to an expensive failure. The person only posted once and was pounced on by those that would cover up any weakness in the hybrid system. We never got the rest of the story. You can carry it a bit further. Why would a rational person spend a lot of money to rebuild a Prius II?
All that is being said by myself, CR and many writers is the hybrid maintenance by it's very complex nature will be more expensive to keep past the warranty than a comparable non-hybrid. I don't see where that is hard to understand. What is compounding the issue with the hybrid's is You have to buy parts from the manufacturer. I doubt for patent reasons that any of the HSD system can be manufactured by a replacement parts house. As a Lexus owner I can tell you that they are rip-off artists.
This is not aimed at you. I think you have given very fair and balanced advice to those interested in buying the hybrids.
Actually this is not correct.
The electric system, i.e. the MG's are brushless and do not need maintenance;
The PSD is sealed and needs no maintenance at all;
The batteries have been tested out to 175,000 miles with no deterioration at all in performance; 'life of the vehicle' can be expected.
The ICE has a chain driven timing belt which should last indefinitely;
The spark plugs in excess of 100,000 miles;
The brakes are used much less than ICE vehicles;
In fact the amount of maintenance is minimal .. oil, filters and tire rotation.
The PSD is sealed and needs no maintenance at all;
---
All that means is that there is no maintenance involved in those systems. It doesn't guarantee that it won't break and need to be fixed/repaired.
You have fallen into the "mileage is the only test of a vehicles reliability". I say the age is of more importance to most people than mileage. I have only owned one vehicle that I put over 100k miles on. I have owned several vehicles over 10 years. True reliability for me is age not mileage. A properly lubricated engine will last 20 years ore more. Electronics do not have that kind of life in them. All the sensors involved in complying with EPA emissions are lucky to last a couple years. If you follow many of these threads EGR and MAF failures come up a lot. Several posters on this Prius board have complained of sensor failures that were not covered by the hybrid warranty.
MG's are brushless and do not need maintenance;
They are subject to failure if over heated. That according to Toyota/Lexus. Don't get stuck in the mud or snow you may burn up your electric motor. I am sure they have SENSORS that will shut the system down. Some consolation if you are out in a snowstorm stuck.
I'm glad for this forum. It has shown that hybrids and especially the HSD system has very limited practical value. It is a gas saving solution for high mileage commuters.
TOKYO April 15, 2006; Reuters reported that Honda Motor Co. Ltd plans to produce diesel engines in Britain to meet strong demand in Europe for fuel-efficient vehicles, a Japanese financial daily reported on Sunday.
Currently, Japan's third-biggest auto maker exports diesel engines to its British factory from Japan, where they are installed in passenger cars.
Nihon Keizai Shimbun (Nikkei) said Honda plans to transfer part of the engine production there, and that it has already built assembly lines inside its British plant.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/04/16/004245.html
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp
Nationwide, diesel is running about three cents less per gallon.
Last Friday I filled my CRD and diesel was ten cents less per gallon than unleaded regular. :P
Diesel's are rapidly taking over in Europe as they have phenomenal fuel consumption in comparison to their petrol(gas) powered stable mates. Hybrid's are an expensive irrelevance in Europe.
The BMW X5 3.0 diesel has almost identical performance to the gas 3.0 but 50% better fuel economy. Mid-size Ford's and VW's with diesel engines are topping out over 55mpg for highway figures. These cars cost little more than the gas driven versions, are practical and straight forward to maintain. Diesel engines also have arguably a longer lifespan than gas also.
Seems to me hybrids are an over priced and over complicated solution to energy crisis. I'm never going to be sold on a compact car that needs two power plants, has 40% more parts to maintain, and costs about 30-50% more than a gas equivalent. This proposition would seem to suit the oil companies quite nicely. I think hybrid sales will continue to grow in the "lifestyle" market, but will probably plateau quite quickly.
Clean diesels need to gain a better hold in the US market.
Agree wholeheartedly. But 'the gas companies' will still get their pound of flesh from us whether it's dino gas or dino diesel. Now Bio-diesel is another story.
Since hybrids are the only ultra-efficient power system now available in every State. It's what we have. As tough a sell as hybrids have been diesel is likely to be just as tough.
I'm never going to be sold on a compact car that needs two power plants, has 40% more parts to maintain, and costs about 30-50% more than a gas equivalent
Fewer parts to maintain. For any Toyota auto.... change the oil and filters every 5000 mi, rotate tires as needed, change airfilters once a year. Repeat for 10 yrs. That's it. Nothing complicated there.
Your cost figure on hybrids vs their counterpart ICE's is exagerated - likely by poorly researched/written press reports. 20% maybe but depending on which vehicle you are discussing the difference might be zero or 5-10%.
After CR embarrassed itself with it's widely quoted article in the annual edition, they had to immediately retract it and restate that both the Prius and HCH were actually less costly then an ICE counterpart in the long run.
Actually the Prius has no ICE counterpart and the best equivalent vehicle is the Jetta TDI. The cost on both of these is about the same or within 5%.
Now 3-5 yrs from now this picture may be entirely different. The Prius and another small Toyota or Honda hybrid might be getting 90-100 mpg regularly and there might be a wide range of small/midsized diesel autos from VW, Toyota, Honda, Ford, etc. All of this is good for us.
Mass produced Bio-diesel is even better.
The problem with diesel in the United States is that people complain about the noise (biggest complaint), fuel cost (unfortunately diesel fuel costs more than gasoline but that has been turning around recently), and of course the disaster called the Oldsmobile diesel, which was a gasoline engine converted to diesel.
I drive a Jeep Liberty CRD (Cherokee on your side of the pond). I am very pleased with it in terms of economy and performance. Reliability has been quite good to this point also.
Unfortunately, gasoline is king over here and people are unwilling to give diesel a try. Then there are those who perpetuate the myth that diesels are really dirty engines. In several respects they are cleaner than spark ignition engines emitting less carbon dioxide, no unburned hydrocarbon and little or no carbon monoxide. The other two areas, particulate and oxides of nitrogen are nearly solved. There are some who think the way out of our situation is by gasoline hybrid only.
If our government had any smarts, they would encourage the use of compression ignition engines as they are true multi-fuel engines. Compression ignition engines do not suffer from the terrible fuel economy and performance degradation that plague spark ignition engines when using alternate fuels. An E85 capable vehicle gets about 40%less mileage than it's non-E85 siblings when using E85.
After CR embarrassed itself with it's widely quoted article in the annual edition, they had to immediately retract it and restate that both the Prius and HCH were actually less costly then an ICE counterpart in the long run.
CR is frequently quoted in this and in other forums. There have been articles from other very reputable publications, Kiplingers comes to mind, showing that the Prius is not as cost effective as a non-hybrid.
As to long term reliability, a big question mark for the Prius. In another forum a comment was made that in at least one or two instances, the main battery pack was changed out at no cost by the dealer just before the warranty died on some first generation Prius'. No reason was given as to why it was changed.
I have another theory.
Most hybrid buyers lack automotive knowledge, and a staggering majority of diesel buyers possess automotive knowledge way above average.
Of course this theory would be harder to test, since most people who frequent Edmunds fall into the knowledgeable category.
But as I've stated here and elsewhere several times if it's only economy of usage that one needs then the Prius is not the right choice nor is any other new midsized auto. If it was only about economy my personal option would be a 2003 or 2004 Certified USED CamCord. For others it might be a Kia Rio or Fit or Used Corolla. These will all get you from A to B for up to 10 yrs with good care at about half the price of any new midsized car, Prius, CamCord, Passat, Sonata.
Since everyone seems to agree on that now, the one glaring error is that they still make is to compare the Prius to the Corolla with the caveat that 'it's the closest ICE vehicle for comparison purposes'. In fact the Corolla is nowhere near the same vehicle as the Prius in comfort, ride, features, etc. The best comparo for the Prius is the Jetta TDI then an LE Camry or an LE Corolla. Since it's less costly than the Corolla it is significantly less costly than a Jetta or Camry.
Kiplingers main argument which has validity is that the other hybrids are 'mock hybrids' if you will. HAH, HH, Rx400h are really V8's with good fuel economy. They are performance directed rather than economy directed. This we all knew but perhaps the general public did not. But who's to say that someone wanting a V8 SUV with 24-26 mpg FE is more wrong than someone wanting a V8 SUV with 12-16 mpg. Hummer drivers give little or no consideration to FE so why should a Lexus Rx400h owner be pilloried for driving in the same manner? It's their money and their choice.
Conclusions:
The Prius and HCH are less costly than their ICE brethren.
The HAH is not good product placement; nor is the HH
The Rx400h is a luxury V8 with extraordinary FE ratings.
The FEH is beset with being in the Ford family at present.
The TCH will be a good valid comparo in the Camry line like the HCH is in the Civic line.
I've never heard such an egotistical statement here before.
One can still fairly compare a Corolla or a Civic to a Prius. The main issue is fuel efficiency/economy. Comfort, features are so secondary that they are not worth mentioning. Also, a Prius is significantly more complex than a Corolla or a Civic and the latter two have a proven record of reliability, something that cannot be said for the Prius.
I think the word is "application". If I were to drive in downtown D.C, I would probably drive a hybrid. If I were to drive to Frederick, MD I would probably drive a diesel.
Your comments on the Prius reliability are just silly. It consistently remains at the top of the lists of the most reliable vehicles on the road. I sense that you are getting into the 'fear of the unknown' realm.
'Even though it's 10 yrs old this year, I can't imagine how and why it works so well so there must be something I'm not seeing that's going to fail soon.'
Does that about summarize your concerns? What if it really does work this well?
From daily experience and reports from owners over the last 5 years as well as experiences reported on other sites... it really does work this well. Perhaps 10 more years?
Not hardly, with only 7.3 second 0-60 times. Maybe it will smoke most V6 SUVs. For one the ML500 is in the 6.5 second 0-60 range. And don't forget the cross country contest the RX400h lost out to the ML320 CDI on mileage. I'm not sure they did any performance tests. So it is just another luxury SUV among many.
'Even though it's 10 yrs old this year,
Do you want to hash out all the failures of the early Prii brought to this country? The Prius II was hardly a smashing reliability model. How many hundreds of Prius II owners were left dead by the road because of faulty software and hardware? Well over 100 cases were documented on the government website. That was probably a small fraction of the actual failures. Those reliability stats were based on previous Toyota cars. I guess they ASSUMED the Prius would be reliable because the Camry is reliable.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Actally the number of affected VIN's was very small but for the sake of doing the right thing they changed any vehicle shipped through then end of 2004.
It doesnt change the fact that while there was a software glitch which was overprotective of the traction battery nothing mechanical failed. And the vehicle still remains on the top of the small/medium sized car lists in terms of reliability. Truly a tempest in a teapot.
In the final analysis those that drive them now are adding them to their household fleets or asking about the Gen3's and how soon they will be out.
I have 4 customers currently who've each had Gen1's and Gen2's plus a HH in there as well. I will acknowledge that the newness and uniqueness is annoying to some. For others it just rubs them the wrong way. That's OK the TCH is intended to appeal to a wider audience.
For a couple of years the spotlight will be on the TCH as it should.
I do know the Toyota hybrids inside out - and much better frankly since I've been trading ideas here on this forum in particular. It's good intellectual stimulation to get other views. I think diesel is a great future alternative especially for heavier vehicles and possibly autos as well. I'm especially intriqued if bio-diesel can win a significant part of the fuel market and eliminate our use of mideast dino-fuel.
I am never negative toward any other vehicle .. ever... but I won't let offhand negative comments go unanswered either. Usually they are unfounded or exagerations.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I know you like to keep things straight. The Prius stalling affected both the 2004 & 2005 models. 75,000 cars were involved. I don't believe that Toyota fessed up until May of 2005 and the Feds started their investigation in June of 2005. There were cars still being delivered by dealers late in 2005 without the updated software. Like with all automakers we will never know the truth about Prius failures, unless their is a recall. A recall has to be a very widespread problem or safety issue to get it out in the open. Unless automakers are forced by the government to publish all failures for all vehicles, we will be like mushrooms.
The Prius Classic, has had many types of failures. Many complaints on the ODI website of stalling, throttle control module, fuel flow module, catalytic convertor, tires, rack & pinion steering & more. Some problems never resolved, hopefully they were able to use the Lemon Law.
IIHS-Auto Safety
The Kia Sedona and Subaru Impreza are the best performers in a group of minivans and small cars tested by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. The Toyota Prius was rated marginal for seat/head restraint design and was rated poor without optional side airbags.
Crash tests