By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
The question had been posed many times what were the crashtest results for the Prius and the answer was that they were likely to be the same as the EURO / NCAP's since the tests are the same.
IIHS spokesperson on MS/NBS this hour..
The Prius did very well on both frontal and side impact tests and 'could improve' it's rear collision test performance, It remains the third ranked vehicle in it's class according to him.
...with the SAC airbags of course.
An interesting sidelight to the IIHS's rating methodology came out in the new chart posted on the small cars.
If one replaces the 4 categories that they use, G-A-M-P, with a numerical system of 4-3-2-1 then the two 'Gold performers' rank tops with Good/Good/Good or 4-4-4.
The Prius ranks third with Good/Good/Marginal or 4-4-2
While the Cobalt ranks fourth with Good/Acceptable/Good or 4-3-4.
Side impacts have a much more serious weighting for the IIHS, and therefore their principals the insurance companies, than the new rear crash impacts.
You can't compare ( well you can but why would you? ) a base Civic with a loaded up one?
A Base model DX Civic AT is $16110 while the hybrid version is $22700. If you are considering a $16000 base Civic and price is paramount then just buy it. You will save money in the long run.
You should get out more.
I do agree with you wholeheartedly. I think the poster's criteria was to buy the cheapest hybrid to be part of the "Green Scene". When comparing the cheapest hybrid Civic to the cheapest Civic, I would imagine the difference is quite large. There are people concerned with the environment and fossil fuel usage that do not want to sell their first born to participate. Which gets back to demographics. The hybrids are cars for the upper middle class. Not for mainstream Americans. Just as Toyota has found in the EU. If given a choice people will take the practical route, Diesel.
As the Prius and other hybrids become more numerous, the insurance rates must go up.
I think the rates are based on historical cost to repair and of course the insured person's driving record. My Suburban and PU trucks have always been less expensive to insure than the cars I have owned. Trucks are heavier built and less expensive to repair.
As to leasing being a rip-off, it used to be that leasing was much more expensive than buying. Today that generally is just not true. And on some depreciation monsters (for instance, Lincoln Town Car), leasing actually turns out to be cheaper for those who would only keep the vehicle 3-4 years anyway.
Hence my question. It would seem that hybrids would have an expected resale value high enough above the regular gas model that perhaps leasing would actually be the same or less than leasing a comparable gas car.
You got me there. Last time I looked at leasing the charges were several percentage points over loan. I no longer consider anything but cash or trade for vehicles. It is all a rip-off since they took away the interest deduction.
I do think that resale value on hybrids is highly speculative. I do not know if the leasing companies feel that way or not.
They may have different money factors for each trim also but since the Civic is HOT I'd guess that all trims are at normal market prices say 6.5-7.5%
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/04/19/004430.html
EPA Offers More Than $1 Million in Grants for Emission Reductions From Diesel-Powered Engines
CHICAGO, April 19 -- U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Region 5's Midwest Clean Diesel Initiative has announced the availability of $1,039,320 in grant monies for projects aimed at protecting public health by reducing diesel emissions in the Midwest.
EPA said it is offering funding for school bus projects and other types of diesel emission-reduction projects. Total funding available for the school bus projects is $464,320 and total funding available for the other diesel emission-reduction projects is $575,000. Proposals are due by June 16, 2006. Announcements, application instructions and more information about the MCDI are at http://www.epa.gov/midwestcleandiesel .
My guess is that many school districts have very old buses. Those old diesel engines will have problems with ULSD. They will also still need some type of emissions control for NoX etc. Most modern EU designed diesel engines are meant to run on ULSD. Older diesels are going to have some issues to resolve. My Passat runs great on BP/ARCO ULSD that has been available in CA for the last couple years. After the first dealer bought tank that is all I have used.
This gap has been widening over the past two to three weeks in favor of diesel. Since diesel is generally cleaner in three of the five measured pollutants, it is also greener too.
Is that why it's banned in 5 states?
I'd say that has more to do with inept politics than anything else.
Rocky
The head of CARB must have had an Oldsmobile diesel and hated it. Not a lot of science went into the CA ban on diesel cars starting in 2004. That was also the year they mandated cleaner diesel for all CA on road vehicles. Notice they have not banned PU trucks with diesel engines. They put out more pollution than any VW TDI. It was all politics as usual.
As far as the other 4 states they are just California wannabes. Must be good if CA says it's good.
The only reason it is banned in 5 states is because of the high sulfur content in the current diesel. The new low sulfur diesel solves that problem. Surely you already know this. So again I ask, why do you continually bash anything to do with diesel?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/dodge/rampickup2500/100604856/review.html
Incidently it is NOT banned in any of "THOSE" 5 states!! I'd love this motor adapted for either a smaller SUV or "bigger passenger car"!!
"Why are you so negative about diesel"
Actually I'm not against diesel.
I'm not a greenie either.
But I do find it odd that some diesel enthusiasts tend to post every last downfall of hybrids...whether real, perceived or just made up...while perpetuating diesel myths such as they last longer and burn cleaner than regular cars.
Regarding hybrids I'll be glad to explain any downfalls like to achieve fantastic mileage efficiency one must learn to drive a different way, they're typically a bit slower than a regular car in a sprint and possibility of battery replacement far down the road.
While most diesel enthusiasts will never admit even the most obvious downfall to diesel autos...like the unique pugnant stench, that they occasionally must pass a fueling station for lack of diesel fuel and never agnoledge VW's past of terrible quality.
If Honda ever makes a diesel mini-van I'd surely take a look and consider it.
I've never said anything bad regarding hybrids and I do like the technology. I also like diesels. If I did 100% city driving a Hybrid would probably be better, but I were on the highway most of the time, or lost of towing (truck/suv) I'd prefer a diesel. I just like a choice, seems diesel cars in the US aren't getting much of a chance. I had a Jetta TDI, that was wonderful, no issues and great fuel economy and resale value. I not all VW owners are as fortunate, but I'd buy another.
Next issue with gassers and hybrid gassers is that you are stuck using a non-renewable or 90% blend of non-renewable fuel, gasoline. They may get great fuel economy, but the fuel they use is non-renewable. Can you run a hybrid gasser on soybean oil or fryer grease?
As to the stench, I have been behind plenty of gassers that stink like rotten eggs. Gasoline has just as much sulfur as diesel fuel and since there are more gassers on the road than diesel, who do you think dumps the most hydrogen sulfide or oxides of sulfur into the air? I think you know that answer.
As to finding places to feed my diesel. Has never been and issue. I drove diesel way back in the early 80's and never had trouble finding diesel fuel anywhere. And as to passing gas stations that do not have diesel, with an over 500 mile cruising range, it is no problem.
As to VW's issues, why can they not keep them on the lot? Why is there such a long waiting time to get one? Quality must be really bad. Toyota has not had wonderful luck with their hybrid either. They are into the third year of HSD and it is still problematic at times. Toyota does not build perfect vehicles. There is now a NHTSA probe/recall of Tundras because the front ends are falling off (bad ball joints). Or how about Toyota engines that sludged up from the late 90's through 2001 or 2002 until Toyota redesigned the CCV system but refused to acknowledge a problem. There are plenty of other faux pas for them, Honda, etc.
I drive s diesel. No smell and no smoke.
I think I can answer that. If you look far back in the hybrid archives I think you will find that the negatives toward diesel was started by some of the pro hybrid group. As a natural reaction those that liked diesel responded in kind. I was pro hybrid & diesel until the failures of the current hybrid technologies started to surface. Especially having to drive a certain way to get even close to the advertised MPG. Owning a VW TDI I can tell you that I get the advertised MPG without any special driving techniques. I would get way over those estimates if I was willing to do what is needed for decent MPG from a hybrid.
Also if you look back you will find many hybrid owners that were very negative toward VW TDI in particular. It was one reason I bought one. After 1 year and no problems at all I have to believe that it was all sour grapes.
My conclusion is that the pro hybrid folks are less tolerant of modern diesel cars than diesel owners are of hybrids.
While most diesel enthusiasts will never admit even the most obvious downfall to diesel autos...like the unique pugnant stench
This was a perfect example of the kind of negative comment that pushed those, that know better about modern diesel cars, to retaliate.
There was no need for all the my car is better than your car rhetoric.
Definetly we can agree on that one, and is is perpetuated by both sides.
Winter2:
I've also been stuck behind greezy oil burning cars and the rotten smell of a bad converter.
Personally while those do smell bad there is a definite composition to diesel exhaust which has a very different human reaction such as stinging the eyes shut and throat restriction/cough/gag.
"I drove diesel way back in the early 80's and never had trouble finding diesel fuel anywhere"
You are very lucky. Sometimes I take side roads to work and pass 14 gas stations. None sell diesel.
In my area the main area to access diesel fuel is along the freeway.
From where I've driven (alot) most areas are the same.
Regarding no smell/smoke, of course I can't comment on your particular car but I'd bet if one were to ask 99.9% of drivers (What ever they drive) their cars don't either.
It's not the driver that experiences it, but the person(s) behind the tail pipe.
If you are talking about the older pre-common rail injection diesels, yes they smell a bit more and smoke a bit more. But I have yet to find a common rail diesel that does. I have been behind VW TDI, MB CDI and Jeep Liberty CRD and have seen little or no smoke and no smell. I have been behind the newer diesel semi trucks and have seen little or no smoke and rarely any smell. If I stick my nose into the tailpipe of my diesel while it is idling, you smell a little of the sulfur smell, but nothing else.
As to finding fuel, even way back when in the 80's, I drove into the Litchfield Hills of Connecticut and the Berkshires of Massachusetts and saw plenty of stations that sold diesel fuel. Last year my wife and I drove to Florida. We took numerous back roads through the Carolinas and saw many stations that sold diesel and at that time for less than regular 87 octane gas.
I drive a Jeep Liberty Limited CRD. Except for two minor issues, it has been trouble free. I regularly exceed EPA highway by 4 - 5 mpg. My old diesel, an Isuzu I-Mark regularly exceeded 50 mpg on the highway.
If I lived in the middle of Manhattan I would probably be driving a hybrid, but since I do not and spend 65% or more of my time on the highway, I drive a diesel.
As to that rotten egg smell, it is not the converter. The problem is with either the fuel or the engine, most likely the latter.
The way you talk about diesel leads me to believe that you have not looked into the newer stuff that is available.
Is that why it's banned in 5 states? :sick:
Diesel is not banned in 5 states.
Diesel is not banned in any of the 50 states.
Diesel vehicles are legal for sale in every state.
There are 5 states that do not allow the sale when new of the cleanest diesel vehicles availble. They do allow used ones. They also allow the filthiest gasoline vehicles available. :surprise:
I believe that a lot of the diehard diesel fans in CA would trade up to a modern diesel if available. That would take most all the old MB & VW diesels off the roads. Why would someone trade an old MB 300D that still runs decent in on a gasser that does not get as good mileage? After owning a diesel car and RV, I do not see myself ever buying a gas car unless it was at least third less in price. The only reason I bought the GMC hybrid PU instead of the Duramax diesel was the $12k difference in price.
When I sell the Passat I believe I will go for the ML320 CDI or E320 CDI. Whichever is the easiest to get in and out of.
Regarding hybrids I'll be glad to explain any downfalls like to achieve fantastic mileage efficiency one must learn to drive a different way, they're typically a bit slower than a regular car in a sprint and possibility of battery replacement far down the road.
While most hybrid enthusiasts will never admit even the most obvious downfall to hybrid autos...like the excessive cost and compexity, that they occasionally obtain less than 50% of epa mpg and never agnoledge Toyota past of terrible dealer service ratings.
If Honda ever makes a diesel mini-van I'd surely take a look and consider it.
Honda FRV is a diesel minivan type of vehicle. Honda will soon be offering diesels in USA.
Diesel is Clean and Green according to Honda
Change
I think anyone who drives knows where the gas stations are...and every diesel owner knows which ones sell it in their area or usual routes.
Sometimes our family takes vacations/trips into unfamiliar territory and would hate to have to scan over stations for that familiar diesel sign.
I've heard of people in such situations who have gotten rather nervous about it for lack of fuel.
Moparbad your #3254 was very intellectual.
Perhaps in a few years we'll replace the Grand Caravan with a new Honda diesel equivalent.
I think it has a lot to do with your area. For example while visiting the grand kids in Simi Valley North of Los Angeles, they did not have any ARCO stations that sold diesel. There was a Shell station. Not knowing what was in the Shell diesel we waited until we got back to familiar territory. I have made my wife a bit nervous going for 50 miles with the low fuel light on. Got 570 miles on that tank of diesel, and 37 MPG. If you are very picky, as I am about the diesel you use, it is harder to find. The other option is to run any truck stop diesel and use an additive. Until the whole country has ULSD that is the best solution. There are trade-offs with every vehicle. If I ever find the perfect vehicle I will buy it and let everyone know.
Regarding hybrids I'll be glad to explain any downfalls like to achieve fantastic mileage efficiency one must learn to drive a different way, they're typically a bit slower than a regular car in a sprint and possibility of battery replacement far down the road.
While most diesel enthusiasts will never admit even the most obvious downfall to diesel autos...like the unique pugnant stench, that they occasionally must pass a fueling station for lack of diesel fuel and never agnoledge VW's past of terrible quality.
If Honda ever makes a diesel mini-van I'd surely take a look and consider it. "...
In the interest of "fairness", I think if you think it odd, you are ignoring what the hybrid advocates are saying about diesels. Also I hardly think you are saying that gasser exhaust is smells sweet and is healthful!!! ?
Also in over 73,000 miles I have NEVER had problems getting fuel when I need it. Also with a range of between 700- 868 miles I have to fuel a whole lot less than my Honda Civic gasser that gets a very good 37-41 mpg. or between 481-520 miles.
I think anyone who drives knows where the gas stations are...and every diesel owner knows which ones sell it in their area or usual routes. "...
I dont know why this is even an issue. Currently 1 in 4 stations sell diesel. Given the vehicle fleet being 2.3-2.9% diesel and 97.1- 97.7% being gasser, the gassers are being shortchanged!
I almost forgot. During the hurricane season last year, many stations ran out of gas especially in Florida. Yet you could get diesel without a problem.
By the way, I filled my CRD on Saturday. Diesel 2.899, regular 2.979.
Not only is the ratio of diesel cars to diesel/gasser stations almost ridiculously small vs the ridiculously HIG ratio for gassers to GAS stations, BUT I HAVE to fuel on a far less ratio than a gasser!!!! (using a previous posts' example, over 250,000 miles 37/50 mpg- 520/357 fueling times)
This is not counting the "special lines" available at truck stops for auto diesels !!!!!
Worst case? (which has NEVER happened)
I get in line with a big rig.
In fact the above described scenario is the real nemesis of OTHER alternative fuels,such as: E85 (85% ethanol/15% unleaded regular) natural gas, ethanol, hydrogen. They would either have to ADD each product line to EXISTING stations (from a zoning point of view IMPOSSIBLE) or create a multi trillion dollar new infrastructure.
As much advantage as diesel has over gassers (37%) the other alternative fuels are even LESS efficient than gassets (burn more)i.e., LESS mpg !!!
Look at the above link. The gap between diesel and gasoline prices is widening and is now four cents nationwide. In some places, it is as much as seven or eight cents in favor of diesel. This is the third or fourth week of this trend. If this keeps up, and the price gap continues to widen, what will happen to hybrid sales? Buyers may start to question the extra cost of buying a hybrid when diesels and their fuel is cheaper. :P
Diesel users will probably take a hit in October when ULSD becomes mandatory but I heard that hit will be about four to seven cents per gallon.
In the May 9th issue of PC Magazine, there is a nice sidebar about diesel powered cars. It is pretty objective.
WASHINGTON -- President Bush gave a big endorsement to hybrid vehicles Tuesday as a way to solve the nation's dependence on foreign oil and called on Congress to lift the cap on tax credits for hybrid sales -- a move that would initially only benefit Toyota Motor Corp.
"The easiest way to promote fuel efficiency is to encourage drivers to purchase highly efficient hybrid or clean diesel vehicles," Bush said in an address to the Renewable Fuels Association summit in Washington.
"If the automakers sell more than their limit, new purchasers are not eligible for the full tax credit.
"And so here's an idea that can get more of these vehicles on the road, and that is to have Congress make all hybrid and clean diesel vehicles sold this year eligible for federal tax credits," he said.
Consumers who buy hybrids currently receive up a tax credit worth up to $3,400, but Congress capped the number of tax credits at 60,000 vehicles per manufacturer each year.
If current law isn't changed, Toyota buyers may lose out on the tax break because Toyota sells more than 60,000 hybrids each year.
Ford Motor Co., by comparison, sold 17,000 hybrids in all of 2005. U.S. sales of hybrid-electric vehicle are expected to grow by 268 percent between 2005 and 2012, J.D. Power and Associates said in a report this year, jumping from 212,000 vehicles last year to 780,000 by 2012. At the forum touting E85 and ethanol, several members of Congress pitched plans to increase ethanol and reduce oil consumption.
U.S. Rep. Jack Kingston, R-Ga., called for eliminating Saturday U.S. mail delivery to save on gasoline costs.
Rocky
Poorly written and dumb conclusion by a shallow-thinking writer with little or no knowledge of the subject matter. What he meant to say was:
If current law isn't changed, future Toyota buyers taking delivery after 9-30-06 may lose out on the full tax break because the first 60,000 Toyota hybrid buyers will be reached in May.
sells more than 60,000 hybrids each year.I wonder if editors have any idea what their staff writes. I also think most editors are clueless about new developments as well so they trust the writer to do the research. Besides, writing dumb things cant get you put in jail. In additon it's the writer ultimately whose name is on the article.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I think Hybrids just don't deliver as promised, Oh I'm sure under some very unique driving circumstances Hybrids can work. The thing that most don't ask is about getting rid of it after it's out lived it's usefulness, because yer sitting on a 5000 lb toxic waste dump. Who's gonna take it? It's been said that it could cost upwards of five grand to dispose/recycle a Hybrid. Remember when a scrap yard would give you $100 for your junk car? Well the one that tries that with a hybrid may hear "sure .. give me the keys, title and 5 grand" Nooooo problem'oh!
victorydave.
It's been said that it could cost upwards of five grand to dispose/recycle a Hybrid.
Whichever 'expert' passed on this tidbit of data to you
missed all the posts here and elsewhere wherein Toyota has a bounty posted on every NiMH battery in existence. It's a non issue except for the uninformed.
Your concern has been noted though.
Where exactly is this "Bounty" posted?