Hybrids & Diesels - Deals or Duds?

winter2

At my favorite fuel station

Diesel: 2.859
Regular unleaded: 3.019

This is why I do not drive gassers!

hot_georgia

Victorydave, hybrid Nimh batteries are non-toxic.
Are you thinking hybrid cars carry 5,000lbs of lead-acid cells?

ruking1

"At my favorite fuel station

Diesel: 2.859
Regular unleaded: 3.019

This is why I do not drive gassers! "

Given the two cars I run side by side; VW TDI 50 mpg and the Honda Civic 38 mpg in the SAME commute. (don't drive them both at once, i.e., SOSDD) The diesel has a per mile cost advantage of 39% So given the above scenario to get the same cost per mile as the diesel my gasser would have to get app 53 mpg.

alp8

insert eye roll

yeah, no science involved

you must be thinking of the BUSH ADMINISTRATION, and not California

gagrice

I am watching government agencies on both the state and Federal level. They all seem out of control to me. Mandate this and that then fall back and see if it works. The EPA and CARB are both a waste of tax dollars and a BIG joke. They started out with a good plan and it was buried in special interest legislation.

alp8

There is a lot of truth in what you say. Didn't mean to sound peevish, before.

gagrice

Not a problem. It is not good to be too thin skinned on this forum. We get into some fairly hot debates. It is all in the spirit of idea exchange. No one knows it all. I for one am not too old to learn. I enjoy the debates as long as it does not get real personal. Have a good day and keep your opinions and ideas coming.

ruking1

May 04, 2006

When I filled with #2 diesel at the local Valero

#2 diesel $ 3.19

unleaded regular $ 3.33

premium $ 3.53

In addition, I bet a higher % of folks use premium over folks that use #2 diesel.

stevedebi

Diesel: $3.65
Unleaded Regular: $3.29

They really overprice the diesel - generally about as expensive as Premium, or a bit less.

ruking1

Thanks for the heads up!

Glad I filled up in SJ, CA. I will be in Torrance, CA this weekend!! Due to the range (700 miles) I can almost make it home to fill up !! Or look for fuel in a cheaper area! An interesting diesel advantage!

Not sure where you are in the LA area , but a fast search indicated app the same price in the LA area as in the SJ area for #2 diesel. Dare I say it is a few cents CHEAPER in LA LA LAND! So in either case, a win/win situation. Well, I do wish prices were cheaper overall.

gagrice

You can come to San Diego to fill up local ARCO just dropped from $3.21 to $2.96 for ULS diesel. Unleaded went from $3.25 to $3.19. Even if diesel was 25% higher it would be a better deal than gasoline. I am holding strong on my Passat TDI price. I only see one other in the Autotrader. They are asking $32k in your area.

ruking1

I was just in San Diego a week or so ago on a college looking trip !!! Had the Landcruiser with 6 folks inside !! I didn't even give diesel fuel a thought!

2.96 for diesel does sound good, being as how I filled today at 3.19 per gal! San Diego is a LOVELY LOVELY area!!

Wow, 32k for your Passat TDI !! I hope you get your price!!

gagrice

I just put mine in the trader at $3k less than the other one. I am not that greedy. If I make a couple grand and have the use of a fine vehicle for a year, I'm happy. I am really waiting for the ML320 CDI to hit our showrooms. That would be a nice vehicle to keep. 30 MPG in a comfy SUV like the ML is my idea of a good vehicle. The Passat as nice as it is would not be a great cross country ride for me. I also made the mistake of buying with the 17" wheels and tires. Kind of rough riding IMO.

ruking1

Yeah, cross country is a real hard one to nail down. I often think a car like a Toyota Avalon (old folks' car avg age of Avalon owners is/are 55 years old) , Lexus 400 MB E20 or whatever, etc. etc. or its variants would be an ideal car. However most of the folks that I know with those "ideal kinds of cross country cars" would not be caught dead DRIVING cross country!!!

Since we are on the hybrid vs diesel thread we really have not heard from anyone taking their HYBRID; Prius, Insight, HCH, etc across country. I took the TDI "CROSS COUNRY" from San Jose, CA to the Orlando, FL area and return, and I have to say the diesel WAS up to the task.

gagrice

We just put 3000 miles on our diesel MB Cruiser traveling to Texas and back. We stayed off the Interstate as much as possible. TX has great back roads with little traffic. We averaged just over 22 MPG with that big beast. Which leads me to believe they can build smaller vehicles that get high mileage with the right match of engine to chassis. It should be easy to build a midsize diesel car or PU that gets 45-50 MPG on diesel. Accord size car or Tacoma size PU. That is if Congress is really interested in cutting oil imports.

PS
I think I prefer to fly and rent a car where ever I am going. Unless they are short trips within CA or Vegas.

ruking1

For the % and volume of so called high mileage cars such as diesel in the passenger vehicle fleet, if Congress is truly interesting in cutting oil imports; it is truly well hidden. Sure there is endless expression of irritation at 3 dollar gas and low mpg cars, but I think it Congressional action is knee jerk at best. Example?: 100 dollar rebate to address the GAS CRISIS!!! THIS is truly bizarre!!

I truly believe that we DO NOT need higher CAFE standards. We just need more cars at the market that ACTUALLY GET better fuel mileage. This is probably one of the reasons why they make getting 50 mpg diesel cars like Jetta's, etc so hard. In 5 states, there are of course outright bans on sales of new diesel cars. However one can get 325 hp 605 # ft of torque monster diesel trucks (250/2500 series) IN THOSE VERY SAME STATES that ban the high mpg diesel cars. Does this sound bizarre to anyone else but me?

rockylee

http://www.detroitnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060504/UPDATE/605040451/- 1148/AUTO01

Rocky

rockylee

Wow, diesel quite a bit cheaper, thus making a good diesel more practical.

Rocky

winter2

Article is interesting but makes the point that the technology is very much in it's early stages. Also points out why most U.S. drivers will not touch them because of the cost.

To top that off, here is another reason not to buy a gas-electric hybrid. At my favorite gas station:

Regular unleaded: 3.039
Diesel: 2.859

ruking1

We need that for diesel also !!

rockylee

I did read that some of the auto company's think they can get very good gas mileage out of hybrid diesels. It's was a month or 2 so back when I read it.

Rocky

ruking1

As near as I can figure, over gasoline, the hybrid portion gives app 20% advantage. The diesel by itself gives app 37% advantage. Ethanol, again as near as I can figure has a - minus 15- 20% disadvantage over gasoline. natural gas is app - minus 33% However they partially addresses the alternative fuel issue. Hydrogen? GEEZ !!!! 16 dollars per gal (by weight) and 22 mpg for a Honda Civic no less !!!!

Another thing that "anti" diesel folks do NOT truly understand is that for EVERY barrel (42 gals)of oil refined, you get a certain % percentage of diesel. (among a lot of other things) In other words, in the process of refining unleaded regular, you can not NOT refine diesel !!!!! So say the environmental types are successful in waving the magic wand and get diesel BANNED!!!The price of unleade regular will literally skyrocket. Then the next question is where would they put or do with the BANNED diesel fuel that is inherent in processing unleaded regular!! (over 23%) ??

..."About 46% of each barrel of crude oil is refined into automobile gasoline"... 19.3/42 gal

..."Distillate Fuel Oil (Inc. Home Heating and Diesel Fuel) 9.83/42 gal

Here is an EIA March data 2004 table

http://www.sanjosegasprices.com/crude_products.aspx

So this might not quite pop out at you, but if you let app 23% or MORE be passenger diesel population you can as a BARE min consume/import 23% LESS oil. In fact if the environmental types are successful at banning diesel, the consumption of oil will necessarily have to GO UP!!! This consequence is in stark diagreement with their stated goal of lessening our use of oil both domestic and foreign!! ?? Like I said the 37% advantage is getting VERY hard to ignore. The fact the regulatory and political powers that be poo poo this shows a real tolerance for the current "CRISIS" !!!????

gagrice

Good information. There will always be use for distillates such as diesel. Trucks, trains, planes, ships and yours and my diesel vehicles.

zodiac2004

..."About 46% of each barrel of crude oil is refined into automobile gasoline"... 19.3/42 gal

I'm no expert, but can't light sweet crude be used directly as diesel.
Imagine that. 55 gals of crude becomes 55 gals of diesel.
For about 70 bucks too.
Of course I'm over-simplifying, but what the heck.

winter2

Unfortunately, it cannot. As I understand it, crude comes in various consistencies ranging from real runny (light) to gooey and thick. The sweet part as I understand it, has to do with the amount of sulfur present in the crude oil.

It still needs to be distilled into its various fractions which include the middle distillate (diesel fuel and home heating oil).

Would be nice if you could use the stuff straight out of the ground. Would save a bunch of money.

ruking1

Well you bring up an interesting distinction between LSC and "other than" LSC.

The fact of the matter is the other than LSC is it sells for up to 30% discount from LSC. The bad news is there are precious few refineries among precious few refineries that can process it !!!!

To boot there is % wise much LESS light sweet crude than the "other than" light sweet crude. So in that sense LSC is like designer commodity!!!

ruking1

Also I would not want to inhibit anyone from further research, but indeed if 46% or 19.3 GAL of a barrel of crude (42 gals) is processed into unleaded regular, the sale of unleaded regular does not even pay for a barrel of oil (at 60-70 per barrel !!! Even at 3 per gal 19.3 gal yields only 57.90.

gagrice

There is one field in the Arctic that has very light sweet crude. The drillers were using it directly in their diesel generators. I don't know enough about the makeup of oil to tell you anymore than that. Oil does come in a lot of different grades and consistencies. Diesel engines are quite tolerant of what they will run on. I think the early diesel engines were running on peanut oil. You can run fryer oil directly once the engine is up to temperature. The engines on many of the newest cargo ships are using straight bunker oil. That is a problem with pollution.

andmoon

There would be other formulas that compression engines could run on.
Vegetable oil, auto trans fluid, kerosine, jet fuel and used motor oil all will run a diesel engine.

ruking1

Yes and the beauty is it goes on and on and on. Algae, soybeans, used fryer oil, diesel fuel refined from natural gas, diesel fule refined from coal, waste oil streams recycled from the local dump. etc etc.

alp8

in San Francisco bay there was/is an old military ship, the Jeremiah O'Brien. I was on it about 15 years ago, and they were telling us all the stuff it would and did regularly burn. It was essentially a toxic waste incinerator operating within spitting distance of the citizenry with NO pollution controls on it. Disgusting.

I believe they have fixed up the ship, so it no longer is using its diesel engines. Those guys should have been thrown in prison. If a manufacturing company did what those guys did, people would go to jail.

gagrice

If a manufacturing company did what those guys did, people would go to jail.

All you have to do is go down to San Pedro Harbor in Los Angeles and you will see cargo ships from around the world. Many burning the nastiest crude oil you can imagine. One of those ships dumps as much pollution as 12,000 cars without emissions controls. Ships are the biggest single contributor of smog in the LA basin. They are slowly pushing for emissions controls. It is a business that CA does not want to lose. Much has already gone to Ensenada where regulation is less stringent.

alp8

yeah, imagine those ships also burning used motor oil

ugh

I read that the Port was electrifying some aspects of the ship operations that had previously used the ship's diesels

I recall that the port of LA is like 30% of the total emissions in the South Coast, or something crazy like that

definitely the biggest "point source" though it really is hundreds of point sources

gagrice

read that the Port was electrifying some aspects of the ship operations

That is true. They are providing shore power so that the diesel generators on the ships can be shut down while they are loading and unloading. That has helped a lot.

jkinzel

Does this sound bizarre to anyone else but me?

It does not sound bizarre, it is bizarre. It's very sad.

jkinzel

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/05/05/005820.html
Another can't have :mad:
Dodge Caliber's powertrain and drive systems offer many Chrysler Group firsts in the C segment. Caliber is the first Chrysler Group vehicle to offer the full range of World Engines and a second-generation Continuously Variable Transaxle (CVT). Caliber also is Chrysler Group's first compact car to offer Electronic Stability Program (ESP) with traction control.

A 2.0-liter turbo diesel engine is available in Europe and other markets outside of North America. It is a state-of-the-art, direct-injection power unit with high-pressure fuel injection, a variable geometry turbocharger and four valves per cylinder. The turbo diesel engine positions the Dodge Caliber among the best in its class for power, torque and acceleration.

The Dodge Caliber is also available with three World Engine offerings (1.8-liter, 2.0-liter and 2.4-liter). Chrysler Group engineers met aggressive performance and fuel economy targets through advanced cylinder head port and intake manifold design. Technologies in the Chrysler Group World Engine include dual Variable Valve Timing (VVT) and an intake manifold design with flow control valves, both firsts for a Chrysler Group compact car. Combined, these features produce more power, better fuel economy and smoother, quieter operation than engines without them.

Dodge Caliber's CVT has been calibrated for pleasing engine response, precise ratio control and an available Auto Stick feature that allows for manual control with the simulation of six stepped gears. CVT contributes to a fuel economy improvement of 6-8 percent compared with a traditional automatic transaxle.

jkinzel

I thought at one time since the first of the year I saw on this thread or another that Chevrolet was going to put a diesel in their light duty trucks for the 2008 model year. I assume this included ½ ton and small SUV’s. I did a quick search, but found nothing.
Does anyone have any information on this rumor?

ruking1

..."Diesel: $3.65
Unleaded Regular: $3.29

They really overprice the diesel - generally about as expensive as Premium, or a bit less. "...

Just got back from the Torrance, CA area (LA LA Land). I filled up in LEBEC, CA (truckers stop) Prices

CA, Frazier Park I-5 Frazier Park Exit

3.359 (unleaded regular)

3.449 (unleaded regular plus)
3.529 (premium)

3.169 (#2 DIESEL)

http://www.flyingj.com/fuel/gasoline_CF.cfm?state=CA

Got 49 mpg with 4 folks in the car and luggage to the GILLS. AC blasting. (539 miles 11 gal)

gagrice

Got 49 mpg with 4 folks in the car and luggage to the GILLS. AC blasting. (539 miles 11 gal)

I know you probably drove 52 MPH the whole trip

Those prices are right where we are in San Diego. The Thrifty stations that used to be the cheapest are selling unleaded regular at $3.52 yuck... Premium $3.77... No diesel... I don't know why anyone would buy from them. The ARCO across the street is $3.35. Habit I guess.

ruking1

"I know you probably drove 52 MPH the whole trip "

ALA Contrae!! Cruising speeds were between 80/85 mph . SLOW going to be sure!! Too many Prius' camping in the left lane!! (had to pass a lot on the right) I could have been watching paint dry as an (blood sport) adrenaline sport at those speeds. I did use a 1/4 oz shot of Primrose 405C the tankful before and after.

gagrice

Glad you made it safely to and from La La Land. I hate going up there. My wife forces me every now and then to visit our less fortunate relatives.

I do think I will miss the Passat TDI. It was fun to drive. I really don't need that many vehicles. If I was a commuter I would buy the Jetta TDI. I like the 50 MPG, and being able to stay with the flow of traffic.

jkinzel

What takes the place of the Passat if I may ask?
BTW, Sen. Cantwell drives a diesel Jetta according to the news.

ruking1

Thank you! Yeah the choice to hang back and just look for the inevitable spacing holes that develop is a natural option consequence of LLCing. It also allows you to do anything else under the sun !!

I obviously highlighted the Prius' because this is a diesel vs hybrid thread. As it usually works, some of, if not most of the folks you yield the #1 lane to, as they are overtaking, seem NOT to want to get out of YOUR way when you want/need to overtake them. There are precious few who "get it" pass and move right. So, no good deed goes unpunished !!!

I like to avoid higher speed tailgating, bunching and the inevitable "quick draw" on the brakes or jinking to avoid possible high speed disasters/close calls.

gagrice

Back to driving just the Lexus, GMC & Mazda 626. We had too many cars and making a profit on a car was nice. The Lexus and Mazda are both 1990 models so have no value except to us. Both still run great with less than 90k miles on each. My wife would like a Gecko Green VW Beetle. I don't think I can find one at a decent price right now.

ruking1

..."Glad you made it safely to and from La La Land. I hate going up there. My wife forces me every now and then to visit our less fortunate relatives.

I do think I will miss the Passat TDI. It was fun to drive. I really don't need that many vehicles. If I was a commuter I would buy the Jetta TDI. I like the 50 MPG, and being able to stay with the flow of traffic. "...

Yes it is also interesting to hear the reactions of folks not used to the LA area driving. Going 80/85 mph with 6 lanes of traffic (literally bumper to bumper) AND a car pool lane (also at that speed) might be hard for NON LA drivers to imagine. However it is just another day for most Los Angeleans.

Glad to hear you got a great price on the sale of your TDI !! As you indicate, there is really no real utility in stored value in a transportation device !!! One notable exception is of course like your situation, where you drive it for X amount of miles and sell it for more than you paid !!! This is VERY VERY VERY rare I might add!! So good shooting !!!

jkinzel

Yes, you have quite a fleet, best to take the money and run.
Did anyone see 60 Minutes last night 5/7? They had a segment on ethanol. You can DL the transcript from the 60 Min. web page or I can send it. The word "diesel" was never mentioned. It was to the point of being painful. I can't believe it was not spoken intentionally, but I was certainly disappointed that diesel or bio-diesel was never mentioned.

ruking1

Did the program do a SWAG in terms of mpg with like/like mpg for unleaded regular vs ethanol? To take the emissions gig up a notch, a logical progression would be ethanol/hybrid combos.

jkinzel

It was mostly about it's use as an alternative fuel and how it's helping some midwest farmers.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/04/60minutes/main1588659.shtml

gagrice

I would imagine an E85 hybrid would get close to what a current gas only car gets. Then the farmers & oil companies both make money. Remember it still takes a barrel of oil to produce 1.21 barrels of ethanol from corn. Did they mention how many new ethanol plants were being built? How many were for making ethanol from other crops like Switchgrass? I would bet none.

ruking1

Yes, making ethanol from oil is more resource intense than from sugar beets and cane. So while it solves the alternative issue as in "alternative fuels". Its efficiency both upstream and downstream is called into question. Also with oil as an aside there is a 2 gal GAIN from a 42 gal barrel of oil, which I am sure most folks might have missed even if they did read the EIA document I posted in an earlier post. SO a 42 gal barrel of oil has a process gain of 2 gals or 44 gals.