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Hybrids are not so green afer all
A new study shows that over the lifetime of a vehicle—from the moment it is conceptualized at a design studio until it ends up in the scrap heap—hybrids actually consume a lot more energy than even big SUVs.
Hybrid owners are consuming too much energy.
Gas spent in assembly workers vehicles to get to work? Huh? Imagine driving to work... get a room in a company shack outside the main gate will ya.
Has anyone ever heard of this person? Ahhh, he really is located in a fishing resort village on the coast of Oregon south of Coos Bay. Now there's a real hotbed of automotive knowledge.
Do summary articles like this really help the two of you form your opinions? I'm shocked.
I once had a study commissioned like this. It was by my son in a business case class as a senior in high school. His conclusion: we should all use mass transit. Seems obvious to me.
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Rocky
Looked at the video several times and took some notes.
Only once do they ever mention how fast they were going.
You see some highway but they do not tell you how long the highway portions are or how fast they are traveling.
You see several instances of stop and go traffic and city traffic. They talk about a couple of traffic jams.
Way too many unanswered variables. Too many unknowns. How fast were they going on the highway portions of this test? How fast were they going in city driving?
Next, in a later posting you take exception to being called a "diesel hater". And to ensure that diesel coffin is nailed tight.... These are your words. Could you explain how else people might otherwise perceive you?
We have one of the LAST remaining (western) USA auto plants (Toyota/GM)in the next town. So pre hybrid, we had a (car) battery plant in one of the industrial areas. While we did not ride this auto (subcontractor) vendor out of the town on rails, for discussion purposes it was practically done (from a bureaucratic procedural vantage point) that way.
Quoted out of context!
Notice my NON-HYBRID comments not mentioned, how I'll endorse a diesel that meets the SULEV minimum and gets competitive MPG... which is much easier to achieve with a hybrid system.
The current automatic diesel is slow, dirty, and inefficient in comparison to a gas hybrid. So naturally I expect the non-hybrid version of diesel to die. It simply doesn't make any sense, knowing that a hybrid diesel could offer so much more.
JOHN
Asia
By Ian Rowley
Green Diesel? Mercedes Takes on Japan Next fall, the luxury carmaker begins marketing a diesel sedan in Japan
If any foreign auto maker can be confident of launching a successful new model in Japan right now, it's probably DaimlerChrysler's (DCX) luxury unit Mercedes Benz. Spurred by a raft of new vehicles in 2005, sales of the luxury brand rose 4% last year in Japan, compared to a 0.4% decline for the market as a whole.
In 2006, the German brand's sales are surging even faster -- by more than 30% in January and February compared with a year earlier -- as Japanese carbuyers have been wooed by remodeled versions of the S-Class luxury sedans, A-Class compact, and M-Class SUVs and all-new designs of the B-Class MPV and CLS-Class saloons. Toyota (TM) launched its Lexus brand in Japan last August, but so far the results have been less than dazzling. "In Japan, the novelty effect [of new models] is stronger than anywhere," says Hans Tempel, CEO of DaimlerChrysler Japan in Tokyo.
Nevertheless, when Mercedes launches a diesel version of its E-Class luxury sedan later this autumn, industry analysts will be watching Japanese auto buyers' reactions more closely than usual. After all, by offering a diesel version of its E-Class, Mercedes will be treading where few local auto makers have been prepared to venture.
Green Diesel
And as to slow, dirty and inefficient, I think not. My 4300+ pound CRD will toast your tail from 0-60 10.1 seconds versus 11.4 seconds (C&D). As for dirty, your Prius dumps more unburned hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide into the environment than my CRD does. In fact a MB 3.2 CDI is very clean in comparison to your Prius. If you would like to see the facts, I will be more than glad to put out here on the forum.
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A new study shows that over the lifetime of a vehicle—from the moment it is conceptualized at a design studio until it ends up in the scrap heap—hybrids actually consume a lot more energy than even big SUVs. One reason is that hybrids contain more moving parts than conventional vehicles, which require more energy to manufacture and process. In addition to an internal combustion engine, for instance, hybrids also have an electric motor and a sizable battery pack. That adds to disposal costs, too, once the car has run its last mile—especially for the lead-acid batteries.
JOHN
Read Pg 4 of this PDF
Yaris D4D 4.2L fuel /100km (5 door hatch 5spd manual)
Prius 4.3L fuel /100km
Yaris offers better fuel economy than Prius, both create 69 dB noise.
Yaris 113 g/km CO2
Prius 104 g/km C02
Sure the Yaris is smaller than the Prius, the Prius is priced 1.76 times the price of the Yaris D4D!
Overall, non-hybrid diesel has superior fuel economy to cost ratio compared to hyrid and has superior emissions to cost ratio compared to hybrid.
Toyota D4D powertrain is not sold in North America, yet, however, they are current technology being driven in the real world, and Toyota is advancing diesel technology as fast or faster than it is hybrid technology.
Toyota's recently introduced D4D 180 with D-CAT offer less NOx than Prius and does so while producing 174bhp and 400Nm of torque.
The Toyota D-CAT (Diesel – Clean Advanced Technology) in the D-4D T 180 gives the engine the lowest combined nitrogen oxides and particulate matter (NOx and PM) emissions of any diesel engine on the market. Central to this radically low emissions performance is the Diesel Particulate NOx Reduction (DPNR) four-way catalyst, a maintenance-free unit that simultaneously reduces the levels of NOx, particulate matter (PM), hydrocarbons (HC) and carbon monoxide (CO) in the engine’s exhaust.
D4D 180 propels the Corolla Verso 0-62 mph in 8.8 seconds and to top speed of 128 mph. :surprise:
By October of 2006 the diesel fuel in the US will finally be clean enough to allow the same diesel engines used in Europe to be used in USA with no modifications.
Do not be surprised when Toyota begins selling diesels in North America.
Please remember to check the size of images you're thinking aboiut adding to your posts. If the image is wider than 500 pixels, please don't imbed them in your posts. If you want to share lareger images simply post the URL to the image. That way others can still view it in a new window by clicking on the link, and we avoid the margin issue.
When think about the Prius, think of it as a car like the Yaris with the 1.0L four cylinder. Their economy is very similar as are their emissions.
The Yaris diesel is somewhat more efficient than the Prius and nearly as clean without all of the complexity and added weight from the battery pack and MG devices.
In time, non-diesel hybrids will make their mark. Add an autostop feature and a small battery pack. Run accessories like A/C by electricity. Leave the drive train simple. Fuel economy and emissions will be on par with the Prius if not better.
As to domestic ULSD, it will actually be cleaner than EU diesel. EU diesel is up to 50 ppm of sulfur while domestic ULSD will be no more than 15 ppm of sulfur. The other item with EU diesel is that their cetane rating can be no less than 51. I hope that domestic ULSD will have a similar rating.
The Toyota announcement in Japan a few days ago that hybrid technology would be sped up to the year 2012 IMO reemphasizes that it's here for the long term no matter which fuel is used.
1. Autostop at traffic lights will save fuel and cut emissions.
2. Use electric motors to power items like A/C. Have a small battery pack to power these items while the engine is off.
3. If you intend to fully hybridize the vehicle like some people insist they should be, do not use a complex mess like Toyota does with the Prius. Do not use batteries or a gasoline engine.
Instead of batteries use a capacitor (or several).
First they can be charged and discharged infinitely without loosing any capacity throughout their lifetime.
Second, they are cheaper than battery packs, smaller and lighter.
Use diesel as the source of power. Forget gasoline, it is too inefficient. Gasoline engines must use the same air fuel ratio no matter what the load is, while in diesel the air fuel ratio depends on the load placed on the engine. Diesels also emit fewer harmful emissions such as unburned HC and CO. PM and NOx are basically non-issues. Also, diesels can run on 100% renewable resources with little or no degradation in performance or fuel economy. Try that with a gasser.
Use electric motors exclusively at the drive wheels. This keeps the drivetrain very simple. The selector will need to have these settings only, (P)ark, (R)everse, (D)rive, and (L)ow. Nothing else. Regenerative braking might be useful but would only add to the weight and complexity of the vehicle. Along with the engine, the non-drive wheels could act as generators for the electric motors.
Fear & Denial here is absolutely extraordinary.
It is totally absurd to be comparing Prius to Yaris, yet that is attempted anyway. They are completely different classes of vehicle... size, power, quality, safety, etc. Certain people are doing everything they possibly can to avoid dealing with the obvious comparison:
Camry to Camry-Hybrid
.
> In time, non-diesel hybrids will make their mark. Add an autostop feature and a small battery pack. Run accessories like A/C by electricity. Leave the drive train simple. Fuel economy and emissions will be on par with the Prius if not better.
That's just too ridiculous to say much about, since hybrid technology is a moving target, continuing to improve. And the powering of accessories like A/C using electricity isn't even practical for an "assist" hybrid, so how in the heck would a non-hybrid accomplish that while still avoid using any hybrid design aspects?
JOHN
That's not true. My climate control keeps us very cool and comfy with the engine stopped at a light in my GMC Hybrid. That is one of the main features of the hybrid PU truck along with 20 AMP 120 AC circuits to power saws etc.
I am doubtful that Toyota will ever adapt the HSD to a working PU truck. It will end up a Foo Foo truck like their Foo Foo SUV hybrids. Unable to cross a sandy wash or go through the mud without burning up an expensive motor.
Is my hybrid truck worth the extra $1000. So far it has saved me about $500 per year in insurance. And I don't have to get that stupid smog check. And I did not have to give up any of the utility, such as towing.
The very first working model of Prius used an ultra-capacitor rather than a battery-pack... for the exact reasons you described. On paper, it sounds like a great idea. In practice, it's simply not a good choice.
The original hybrid prototype from Dodge was the keep the drivetrain "simple" with the entire hybrid propulsion being exclusive electric-only. That obviously didn't get anywhere, despite all the hype a number of years ago.
As for the claim about 100% renewable, hybrids are now testing prototypes using ethanol & electricity... demonstrating results contrary to your claim.
- - - - - - -
In the end, it doesn't matter. Unless an automaker actually builds & sells the technology, there is no benefit. The computer industry is loaded with examples of that.
So talk up the "supposed" gains all you want, that doesn't change the fact that the hybrid population continues to grow.
JOHN
I repeat: PRACTICAL.
How long can those 3 series-connected 12-volt batteries carry that A/C load? What about that plug?
The engine starts back up rather soon afterward.
JOHN
Is it fair to compare a Yaris to a Prius? You bet it is. Why do people buy cars like the Prius or the Yaris? Fuel economy!
And why not use electrically powered A/C? There are a number of cars on the road with electrically powered steering and/or brakes. What about all of the cars that have cooling fans that are electrically run? Is it practical and feasible, you bet it is.
No car has to be a full hybrid as you contend it must be.
I would like to see your sources if you do not mind.
If you honestly believe people by Prius for fuel economy alone, you have absolutely no idea how the automotive market works. Camry verses Camry-Hybrid purchases will provide lots of proof of that.
.
> Is it practical and feasible, you bet it is.
Really? Then I'll again the question again, but as a statement this time. THE "BATTERY" HAS WAY TOO SMALL OF A CAPACITY TO POWER THE A/C FOR MORE THAN JUST A FEW MINUTES. Hence, it is not practical.
If you don't believe that, take the next step by checking where the electricity comes in the first place. For "assist" hybrids, the primary source is regenerative braking. And because of that, the charge-level will drop and stay low at times. Recovery simply takes awhile unless you want to take a MPG penalty... which defeats the efficiency goal, making it impractical.
JOHN
In December of last year I had the opportunity to test drive a Prius in Florida. The A/C was on. When we came to a light the A/C continued to run in spite of the fact that the engine stopped. After about 30 to 45 seconds the engine fired up to supply power to a generator. Am I correct in assuming the A/C in a Prius is electrically run?
Some people buy a Prius for the technology, but first and foremost, the people I have spoken to who have them bought them primarily for the fuel economy. A very few have mentioned the so called "greenness" of the car. So even if the Prius and Yaris are different in size and in class, they are still comparable on the basis of wanting good fuel economy.
Yes this is true that buyer will choose either one or the other for economy's sake. It may or may not be the primary reason but it is one of the top reasons for the purchase. However features and other benefits such as 'greenness', size, comfort, technology quickly enter into the picture creating a preference for one over the other. The only comparable point they have though is that they are both economical.
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I've gotten 65 mpg for a 50 mi 'city' trip but I drive highways 90% of the time.
Don't believe all the naysaysers .. they may not have even driven one or even more so know how to drive one best.
Seriously now.. there is nothing gimmicky about driving and steering. It's the fear of the unknown that really does scare off a lot.
Cost? It's relative. It was between a used ES330 at $27000 or a new Prius at $23000 or a new Camry at ~ $22000 loaded up. Where does cost fit in this? I liked all three.
Out of favor? Well GM, BMW and DC just formed a jv to try and stop Toyota from taking over everything. Ford is likely to join soon. It doesn't sound like it's going away.
Snippets and headlines don't make for a good investigation. Go to PriusChat or GreenHybrid and just lurk or ask questions. You'll get str8 answers. Study the stats on GH. It's all available if you have an open mind.
Really?
How could you have possibly come to that conclusion already without even having seen them all yet?
Prius introduced the "full" hybrid technology, using a unique purpose-built body.
Highlander-Hybrid dispelled the "full" hybrid power misconceptions, using the technology to significantly enhance acceleration.
Camry-Hybrid is the very first "full" hybrid to use an existing body to deliver a virtually invisible emission & efficiency improvement with only a modest power increase. How is that gimicky?
JOHN
But it will probably just end up a footnote in history.
Sorry, but out here in the real-world we encounter that situation all the time. As a programmer, I have often point out how great it would be if reality actually worked the same way as they taught us in school. That's a lesson some still fighting hybrid have yet to learn. Without support from the market, even a really good idea will suffer.
So no matter how much a non-hybrid diesel supporter argues that an automatic transmission is a better choice than a Planetary-CVT, the average joe simply isn't going to care... since they don't even understand how an automatic transmission works in the first place. But they do know of a few transmission repair shops in their neighborhood and are likely to want to try the newer technology to avoid them... especially after routinely seeing those Planetary-CVT hybrids sharing the road on their daily commute.
And arguing the economics of a hybrid purchase with someone who was recently in favor of monster-size gas-guzzlers is a complete waste of effort, since they have already demonstrated the choice to purchase a non-economic vehicle. So getting them to consider the purchase of a hybrid next time is rather trivial. Money wasn't a high priority for them anyway... which sadly includes a rather large portion of the population.
Anywho, this statement seems to summarize the situation rather well:
"too little, too late"
JOHN
In December of last year I had the opportunity to test drive a Prius in Florida. The A/C was on. When we came to a light the A/C continued to run in spite of the fact that the engine stopped. After about 30 to 45 seconds the engine fired up to supply power to a generator. Am I correct in assuming the A/C in a Prius is electrically run?
You are correct.. and it sort of proves John's point, even the battery pack in the Prius isn't enough to power the A/C for very long in hot weather without the engine having to lend a hand to get the charge level back up.
Ahh... What are you implying?
"Full" hybrids make efficient use of running the engine. "Assist" hybrids have an inherit limitation due to the the engine & motor RPM always having to be the same.
So when Prius turns back on the engine, it is not as big of a deal as with the other type of hybrid like Civic or Accord.
Of course, if that Prius had the ECO or EV button, you'd be able to request having the engine stay off longer.
JOHN
I think this is an interesting question for this board and I am NOT trying to start a big political discussion. I am just looking for info on this very narrow question and I would appreciate all input.
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Did you know that Prius has a smaller lead-acid battry than a traditional car? What the heck are they talking about then? It leads the reader to believe that hybrids run on lead-acid battery.
--------------------------------------
"A new study shows that over the lifetime of a vehicle—from the moment it is conceptualized at a design studio until it ends up in the scrap heap"
What I posted shows exactly the same thing. Except, it compares the same class of cars which is more specific apple to apple comparison.
---------------------------------------
"One reason is that hybrids contain more moving parts than conventional vehicles, which require more energy to manufacture and process."
Energy spent should directly correspond to the emission! Toyota offical study also has breakdown in detail. Over the life time of a car, hybrid is clearly a winner. Where is the breakdown in your article?
http://home.nyc.rr.com/tewedding/HSD/Prius_Emission_Index.JPG
http://home.nyc.rr.com/tewedding/HSD/Prius_Vs_Gas_Emission_Lifetime.JPG
Dennis
So when Prius turns back on the engine, it is not as big of a deal as with the other type of hybrid like Civic or Accord.
Is the Prius's engine somehow magical in it's ability to charge the battery, and the Civic/Accord engines not quite as magical. When the engine comes on to charge the battery, it's the same no matter what type of hybrid it is.
Of course, if that Prius had the ECO or EV button, you'd be able to request having the engine stay off longer.
And probably sweat my backside off.
I could not find what car they used in that LCA study. I would rather see an independent study, by a source that is not trying to sell their own cars. Even so the Toyota study clearly shows that the hybrids are far more polluting in the manufacturing stages. A Prius never overcomes the Particulate Matter spewed in manufacture. That is the major complaint against diesel. I have not seen any credible studies that show whether the Prius produces more or less PM than a modern diesel car.
Actually there was a recent poll over at that green site regarding that. It came out pretty much even 50%-50% which suprised some people.
I mean think about the not too distance past history of the so called "SUV" craze. This of course was vilified by the anti SUV crowd. One characterization might be: as the "mongol hordes" at the gates of ROME and changing civilization as we know it. Yet at its so called "ZENITH", the suv population hit 12% of the vehicle fleet. This "MASSIVE" growth took app 25-32 years. So this is app of yearly growth: .0048 % to .00375 %. Simultaneously, the small car population was/is app 27%, i.e. by default getting better mpg.
www.Kiplingers.com Kiplingers, Personal Finance May 2006 REWARDS page 102
How GREEN is my Hybrid? By Mark K. Solheim
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This we knew..
Also, the Prius does not have a CVT trans at all. Toyota uses that name because the public has heard that name before. It does have some planetary gears but in reality is a power splitting device.
The next thing I dispute is the idea that the Prius is so "green". Well, it is not. It puts out more unburned HC and CO than my Jeep Liberty CRD does.
A dirty little secret the hybrid proponents don't want you to know. The Prius also puts out more particulate matter (PM) during it's lifetime than the equivalent size gas car. Isn't that the stuff in smog? No problem, Toyota spews most of the PM in some unsuspecting third world country.
No way....
Rocky
usbseawolf2000, "Hybrid vs Diesel" #1530, 21 Jul 2004 9:47 pm
At those stations the price difference runs from two to nine cents less than unleaded.
At the website below, notice that diesel is cheaper in more regions of the country too.
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp
Diesel $2.51