Hybrid vs Diesel

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Comments

  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    If someone gets rid of their car early it goes into the used car market. Last I checked, there hasn't been a glut of unsold inventory of used cars. There is a balance in the market which is why the USED car market exists. If people want to change cars every three years, that is their perogative. Same holds true for every other household appliance.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You are right it is everyone's right and further more it is the American way to change cars as often as you feel like it or can afford it. It is just not good environmentally. I don't know where you live but in San Diego there are as many used car lots as Mexican restaurants. Those lots are jammed and overflowing with 2-3 year old vehicles. It is easier and usually less per month to buy new than to buy a two year old vehicle. Interest rates are cheaper for a new vehicle and the rebates many times make the purchase price almost the same as a used vehicle. Most people keep the washer and dryer for longer than 3 years. However what I am seeing is huge disposal problem in used computers. They cannot be dumped and the Goodwill does not want them. We are a throw away society and our children will pay the price.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    Just look at the oil-change document I published (on my website). The photos of the underside of my 2004 Prius reveal rust already.

    Of course full belly pans under the vehicle (such as my Jetta TDI comes with) will keep the salt and weather off those components. The chassis itself is not tough to keep from rusting for very long periods of time, and body panels are also built to last much longer than years past. Stainless exhaust components are long-life even in harsh weather. My Jetta has quite a bit of northern weather under it and is clean and no oxidation on any parts. That's five years and 85k miles worth. My 15 months old truck has more oxidation on the components simply from not being protected. Those pans are a pain for quick services (main belly pan has about 15 screws) but sure makes things last longer and stay cleaner. I'd imagine there are some aerodynamic advantages to the belly shields as well, although cost is probably more (from a manufacturers stand point). VW's cost more, but they have a ton of little things like that so stand out from the crowd. Many of which the average consumer probably has no clue even exist.
  • rickroverrickrover Member Posts: 601
    Here is an interesting article from USAToday about hybrid and diesel reliability after 3 years.

    http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-07-25-hybrid_x.htm

    My Jetta TDI wagon is 2 years old with about 30k miles - I've never had a single problem with it. I know a few other people with TDI's from various years - they don't have problems with theirs either.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Where is the actual data?

    SHOW ME THE DATA!

    There isn't a mention of sampling or scale at all.

    Vague reports are how misconceptions are created. You just choose whatever data serves your purpose. And I know this well. That very paper did a hybrid interview with me fishing for specific data. And sure enough, that's all they printed. Everything else I said was ignored.

    JOHN
  • winsanwinsan Member Posts: 36
    <<It is easier and usually less per month to buy new than to buy a two year old vehicle. Interest rates are cheaper for a new vehicle and the rebates many times make the purchase price almost the same as a used vehicle>>

    That depends on where you get the loan. I bought a used 2003 Altima, and I financed it through my credit union - they considered it a new car (in fact, they considered 2001-up cars as new cars). Therefore, that used Altima becomes much cheaper than a new one.
    I think if the manufacturer gives rebates/cash back, then it is likely that the price of the used ones gets hurt. Therefore, used car buyers will gain more.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    I agree, that article doesn't do anyone a bit of good. It talks about engine problems and computer problems? Which is it and what are these problems? Am I supposed to believe that hybrid gas engines and diesel engines are having massive internal break-downs? Are these just misunderstandings by owners? I see a lot of dealers/owners of TDI's that just don't know what they're doing. I'm sure the hybrid situation is similar. Anytime something is not "mainstream" it tends to be easily criticized.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That may be the case with cars. I was looking at a 2003 Lariat F250 Super Duty Crew Cab with diesel. It has 12k miles and the want $36,500. I can buy a new one with exactly the same equipment for $35,000 after all the rebates. The used car dealer said go for it. And he was part of the Ford dealership. Figure that one. I can't.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    can buy a new one with exactly the same equipment for $35,000 after all the rebates. The used car dealer said go for it. And he was part of the Ford dealership. Figure that one. I can't.

    It means they got buried on it and are going to try and pawn it off onto an unsuspecting customer before they lose their butt. Looking at a $42,000 sticker, that $36,500 looks like a "deal". The number of unsuspecting customers are dwindling, but there's still lots and lots of them. It will eventually shake it's self out, but when these prices jump the used market gets beat-up.

    I think it will be 5 years before we know anything about the resale market of the hybrids. Enough to make a financial decision anyway.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Your probably right. I doubt 1% of the populace bother to go online and research their vehicle purchases. And even then I would probably fly to Seattle, Portland or Idaho to buy a new vehicle. CA is a rip-off on vehicles unless you buy private, from some guy that wants more than the real low dealer blue book.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    quote John-No matter, an attempt to discredit still doesn't change the statistic. It is still correct.

    Also, your very misleading terminology of "average" rather than "sent to the junkyard" has been addressed already too.

    No matter to that either, they are just words, not action.

    JOHN
    -end

    Average is not a "misleading terminology" it is a mathematical calculation that anyone who has completed elementary school should understand. Also, it is not my data, it is the NHTSA's data.

    It is clear that your statement that 90% of vehicles are replaced by year 10 is incorrect. You do a fine job of discrediting yourself without the help of anyone else.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > it is a mathematical calculation

    Yes, to indication MEDIAN, not REPLACE.

    REPLACE is the term you should have been using all along, not average. Get over it already.

    JOHN
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > It is clear

    Based on what?

    Your over-generalization to group each region of the country into a single entity is how you are discrediting yourself.

    Please stop with the non-constructive banter. SHOW ME THE DATA!

    JOHN
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    "Just look at the oil-change document I published (on my website). The photos of the underside of my 2004 Prius reveal rust already."

    That's one of my beefs with toyotas. They rust like the dickens here in the north.

    My '97 bmw, here in chicago, doesn't have rust anywhere on it. Neither did an old passat i had.

    I agree with the comments about vehicle longevity. Vehicle manufacture is generally a very polluting activity, and i've seen an article that claims that it takes over 150K of vehicle operation for the pollution from use to balance the pollution from manufacture. Based on this, it's probably better to maintain a decent vehicle tham to buy a cleaner one and let an acceptable vehicle deteriorate

    Of course, it's a different problem when choosing between two new vehicles.

    There are also manufacturers going to great lengths to make manufacturing cleaner and to make vehicles highly recycleable. I know of volvo, bmw, and VW pursuing this.

    From a California EPA statement:
    "A car produced in 1964 emitted 228 pounds of pollution annually. A car produced in 1993 emits just seven pounds."

    I think speculating that reducing from seven to even zero would account for vehicle manufacturing is a highly specious claim. And in reality it would be less than this--a hybrid still has some emissions, and a modern 2004 vehicle is an improvement over a 1993 model.

    I don't have hard numbers to prove this, but i expect that if you account for everything--manufacture, refining, fuel evaporation and shipment--the lifetime pollution for a diesel is lower than for a hybrid. Even USB's chart suggests this.

    dave
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Edmunds has a nice writeup on the Passat TDI. There were some interesting statistics regarding the number of diesels in Europe (around 50%!). Here in the US only 5% of passenger cars are diesel. What I didn't like about their writeup was that the car was sluggish when loaded with 4 people and some cargo. I would have thought that with all the torque it wouldn't have a problem. I guess I could live with the vibration they complained about too. I was just upset that they were somewhat lukewarm about it. I guess spending the money on the Mercedes E class diesel would be worthwhile. I wonder how hybrids do (Prius in general) when loaded with four passengers and luggage. Is it much slower than if just one person was driving?
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    I don't like when they generically use adjectives like "sluggish", since you are usually not given any frame-of-reference whatsoever.

    Actual quanitative numbers are far more informative.

    As for the "loaded" question, I simply don't have numbers available. "Still able to merge without struggle" is the best I can provide. Sorry. As for the "just one person", I've never heard of a vehicle that wasn't faster with less weight inside.

    JOHN
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    Anything is going to be slower with more weight on board. I find most 4cyl gas motors feel "overworked" in those conditions. The diesel and turbo should not feel more worked than any other motor.

    Even paper numbers don't always indicate true driving performance. The diesel may not have the 0-60 times of some vehicles, but the overall driving is much more relaxed and the performance comes easier. My daughters Celica GTS CAN be quite fast but you have to work so hard to maintain momentum it will wear you out. I personally don't like driving with my foot to the floor and constantly shifting gears or revving the motor up just to run along with traffic. The diesel gives you tons of flexability and doesn't require redling to outrun a bus to the next light.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    How come all of you biodiesel supporters failed to mention B100 turns to gel at 20F degrees? The potential for temperatures that cold is half of the year. (Actually in Minnesota, it's almost year-round. One night last week, the temperature dropped to 27F.)

    Everyone living in the north and anyone traveling through the region will be forced to only use a mixture of 20% (B20) instead.

    That's a rather significant shortcoming.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I believe the Lady from Montana explained that earlier in the Bio-Diesel forum. Hard to find anything perfect in an imperfect world. She is using as little of our non-renewable resource as she can and I give her great credit for that. At an added expense to her. She could be running high sulfur diesel for at least a buck a gallon less. I'm not sure I am that willing to do that for the environment. It does give me reason to evaluate my own willingness to help out. That is like my 52 year old sister in Seattle. She has never owned a car because she believes they are bad for the environment. She is a college professor and rides her bike everywhere. That is living what you preach.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    B20 will freeze as well if not treated. Properly mixed, the B100 will not gel at much, much lower temps. I witnessed a jar of B100 with (i believe standayne) anti-gel and a jar of standard treated #2 diesel. They both were fluid after sitting outside at -10F. Just depends how much work you want to do. I just run a good quality high-cetane, low-sulphur diesel in mine whenever possible.

    With an easy 700 mile range, it's not hard to spend a little extra time finding the good fuel.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    So what is this mysterious additive?

    How much does it add to the cost?

    How much does it add to the emissions?

    Where is it available?

    And same question that still hasn't been answered, why wasn't this mentioned in the first place?

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I learn something new every day. This is another means of loosening the strangle hold we have given the Middle East.

    http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2004-07-28-coal-to-diesel-fuel_- x.htm
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    quote john-And same question that still hasn't been answered, why wasn't this mentioned in the first place?-end

    Try asking your question in the biodiesel topic. After you do that perhaps you can create a ethanol topic and mention the decreased mileage, increased pollution, increased cost, and transportation problems of ethanol that is used in gasoline blends.
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    I beleive this has been disucssed twice in this forum already. There are several ways of preventing gelling, such as the addition of ethanol, which you yourself were advocating cars utilize.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Interestin article. Thanks for sharing. 5000 barrels is not much though.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It's enough for us on the forum. Next to the 4 million barrels a day we use it is pretty small.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Try asking your question in the biodiesel topic.

    Same question, yet again... plus the new ones.

    Remember, that other topic didn't exist when we had those discussions HERE.

    Links to the answers will do just, if that's what you prefer.

    JOHN
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63611-2004May28.ht- ml
    quote-Hype hides alternatives. It supports the notion that problems have single solutions. Worse, it ignores inevitable trade-offs and the doctrine of unintended consequences.
    Take the matter of gas-electric hybrid vehicles. They are being presented in the media as the answer to rising gasoline prices and a deteriorating ozone layer.
    That is a mistake -- -end
    Yep.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Host moved my posts to different topic last time fuels were being discussed.

    quote john-Remember, that other topic didn't exist when we had those discussions HERE.-end

    That other topic is THE appropriate area for a fuels discussion per the host.
  • SylviaSylvia Member Posts: 1,636
    please take the biodiesel comments to the biodiesel discussion.

    Thanks!
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    Hmm. No reply to my questions there.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    This made it clear to me about biodiesel and what to do in the cold. I don't think I would put it in the Prius though.

    loveshemp "Biodiesel vehicles" Jul 28, 2004 12:45pm
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    So... you're just pointing out that he didn't research the topic well? Toyota's documentation about their battery recycling program is that tough to find details on. And on the industry level, it is common knowledge that NiMH can be recycled.

    My favorite quote though was this "On a test drive, the result was a Passat TDI wagon that got a remarkable 37 miles per gallon with very little noise and absolutely no diesel exhaust smell."

    37 is remarkable? Sweet! That makes my 53 MPG fantabulous!

    And what the heck does NOx smell like anyway?

    I think we should really stick to our own long-term real-world actual-owner data instead. Those test-drive reports aren't doing anyone any good.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    37 is remarkable? Sweet! That makes my 53 MPG fantabulous!

    That is good mileage. Edmund's consumers are saying 40-44 mpg average in the Passat Wagon Automatic. That has over twice the luggage space of the Prius. I hope you are not thinking the Prius will handle as well as the Passat. The major complaint in every review of the Prius is the handling "very unstable in cross winds". The Passat is a much heavier, better handling and braking vehicle. It is almost 700 lbs heavier. So that is very good mileage much better than anything Toyota has in it's class.
  • pusterracingpusterracing Member Posts: 186
    "37 is remarkable? Sweet! That makes my 53 MPG fantabulous!"

    Thats 37MPG is a car whose curb weight is 629lbs heavier than your car (3519 vs 2890) and is 9.3 inches longer (also a hair wider (~1") and hair taller (~.5")). Cargo Volume...Prius: 16.1 FT3...Passat Wagon TDI: 39.0 FT3. Oh and 1.5L 76HP/82LBFT torque VS 2.0L 134HP/247LBFT torque.

    Show me a Hybrid car that has 39 cubic feet of cargo storage, more than 200 lbft of torque from the combustion engine, AND averages 37MPG.

    In other words....apples...oranges....

    There is no way to justly compare a Prius's 53MPG to a Passat Wagon's 37MPG, the vehicles serve two different purposes. Your Prius's 53MPG (I thought your AVERAGE was 47MPG as you had previously posted) is more rightly compared to my Jetta's AVERAGE 44MPG.

    Just thought I'd point that out...
  • pusterracingpusterracing Member Posts: 186
    Man gagrice....beat me to the punch....
  • dhanleydhanley Member Posts: 1,531
    Remember, these guys are leadfoots--they typically get quite a bit less than EPA, and a lot less that people like "us" who care about fuel economy and drive accordingly--most cars will get over EPA if you don't drive like a dope.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Maybe we need to start a thread on Ethanol. It has some real downsides that the government would like to cover up. Bush is forcing it onto CA. after they had to legislate against that nasty MTBE. Ethanol is a bigger smog producer, higher in NoX and Corporate welfare for ADM. Need any other reasons to not use Ethanol. Diesel is the way to go Safe and getting cleaner by the day. That Passat wagon TDI looks better every day. This is good reading, on who is getting paid off to keep Ethanol alive.

    http://www.foe.org/powerpolitics/8.26.pdf
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    The Passat wagon seems like an EXCELLENT alternative to a gas guzzling SUV. Plenty of cargo room when you put the seats down and fantastic mileage. I have no idea why we don't see more of these on the road. I suppose a better comparison would be comparing the Passat TDI Wagon to one of the supposed new SUV hybrids coming to market. Now.. just imagine if they put 4 Motion in the Passat? That's something I'd consider for sure!
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    37 is remarkable? Sweet! That makes my 53 MPG fantabulous!

    Seem remarkable to me. Considering most testers barely average the city mpg ratings and I've yet to see a reporter get anywhere near the EPA estimates on the Prius. Getting the highway EPA on a heavy decent sized vehicle sure seems remarkable. Most of the Mercedes E320 testers are getting very good mpg as well.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > In other words....apples...oranges....

    Failing to mention the 295 lb/ft the electric motor can provide is a rather huge omission.

    And who said I was comparing anything? I was simply pointing out MPG itself. The number. Not a vehicle. Of course, they are in the same class if you want to go that route.

    Lastly, if you continue to quote my outdated, winter-only, non-break-in MPG, the discussion is clearly without merit. Check the latest data, please.

    > Show me a Hybrid car that has

    It is called Toyota Estima and has been available in Japan for 2 years now... though the MPG isn't quite that high, but the cargo area is significantly larger.

    JOHN
  • pusterracingpusterracing Member Posts: 186
    "Failing to mention the 295 lb/ft the electric motor..."

    Kinda of usless as once the combustion motor kicks in....it's back down to below 100.....are you going to be able to tow (one of the bonuses of having "useable" torque) a 1500# trailer with that? Can with the Passat...

    "Lastly, if you continue to quote my outdated, winter-only, non-break-in MPG, the discussion is clearly without merit. Check the latest data, please."

    First off, your website is not one that I frequent, I don't know your webaddress and don't need to know it, so if you don't post any "current" data, all I have to go on is the data you have posted in this discussion forum....which was 47MPG, so as you say....bring the facts (here). Second....on the last data you posted (a month or so ago) you had roughly 4 months of data...not sure how many miles...are you telling me that you have doubled the miles on your vehicle in this last month or so, averaging 59MPG, to achieve a lifetime average of 53MPG? If not, then your 53mpg is (as you say) "without merit" because that is just your "summer" mileage, and you have to take into account your "winter" mileage as well...so if all things are equal (6 months summer, 6 months winter, etc) your average would be around 50MPG...but then again, we all know that "all things are not equal". 44MPG is my lifetime average....and my vehicle is no where near being "broken in".

    "Toyota Estima and has been available in Japan for 2 years now...

    Allow me to clarify my statement...which I thought was pretty clear since most all of us in this discussion live in North America...

    "Show me a Hybrid car that has 39 cubic feet of cargo storage, more than 200 lbft of torque from the combustion engine, AND averages 37MPG AND is sold/available in North America (or very soon to be)."

    I not interested in what the Japanese have and drive....I'm not going to fly over to Japan, buy a car, and them import it myself to the United States. I'm going to go down to my local dealer and purchase a car. As I said, I also take "soon to be released" vehicles too....

    Escape Hybrid only has 27.60 FT3 of cargo space...and it's claimed to get 30mpg (although the journalists didn't achieve that).....
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    There is no comparison. The Passat is a fine handling car. The Escape IMO is another Bronco II failed attempt to make a mini-SUV. I have driven both and would consider buying the Passat. I would never buy an Escape. NO ROOM in the Escape. As for the hybrid version it has been promised and promised. Now the release is September 1st. And only 1 car per dealer per month. Sounds like they are back peddling on the cost and don't want to look like fools.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Kinda of usless as once the combustion motor kicks in

    That is not how a full hybrid works.

    No wonder the discussion is non-constructive.

     
    > I not interested in what the Japanese have and drive...

    Don't believe in international products, eh?

    Remember, we export goods too. What if they had the same attitude.

    JOHN
  • pusterracingpusterracing Member Posts: 186
    "Don't believe in international products, eh?"

    This has nothing to do with international products...this has to do with Hybrids and Diesels and what we, as North Americans, can go down to our local dealer and purchase...or purchase in the near future. I drive a VW and I believe in it very much...is that not an "international product"?

    I challenged you to find a Hybrid car that had the cargo capacity of the Passat wagon and acheived the same if not better fuel mileage that could be purchased in North America now, or in the near future. Apparently you cannot find such a vehicle, so you counter with a Toyota that is sold in Japan, a car that doesn't do anyone in North America any good because they cannot purchase it locally now or in the near future (which does not make it a viable option/competitor to the Passat Wagon in NA).....but I can go to my local VW dealer and purchase a Passat Wagon TDI now....today if I want.

    But as you imply

    "Remember, we export goods too. What if they had the same attitude." in response to my "I not interested in what the Japanese have and drive....I'm not going to fly over to Japan, buy a car, and them import it myself to the United States." (yeah, let's look at the WHOLE quote)

    we should fly over to Japan and purchase these Toyota Estimas (tacking on airfare, freight, duties, etc to the price of the Estima) before we even consider purchasing a diesel......doesn't make a lick of sense...

    Once again..."Show me a Hybrid car that has 39 cubic feet of cargo storage, more than 200 lbft of torque from the combustion engine, AND averages 37MPG AND is sold/available in North America (or very soon to be)."

    Or, just accept the fact that 37MPG is remarkable for a car with these capabilites and there is no Hybrid (for those in North America)alternative that can haul as much AND get as good fuel mileage as this DIESEL model...

    "That is not how a full hybrid works.

    No wonder the discussion is non-constructive."

    That comment is "non-constructive"...why don't you educate me? Are you saying that you can tow a 1500# trailer with your 296lbft or electric torque (you never did answer that)?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I believe what pusterracing is saying, is, if it is not available here it is not a viable option. Just as all the fine small Pickup trucks that are diesel powered are not available to the US. We could be driving small trucks getting 45 MPG, instead of the 3/4 ton diesel behemoths that are the only option, if you need a PU.
  • pusterracingpusterracing Member Posts: 186
    This...

    "296lbft or electric torque"

    should be this...

    ...295lbft OF electric torque...

    Pardon my fingers this morning....
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    Nor have we brought up all those superior diesel cars available in europe that not only offer excellent performance but mpg to go along with it. At the point the hybrids become higher performance and bigger, will they get equal mpg to these diesel vehicles that have been available in Europe for years?

    How about a hybrid the size of a BMW 5-series that goes 0-60 in 7 seconds and averages 36mpg? It's called the 530d available in the UK and it's hardly an anomaly.
  • bamacarbamacar Member Posts: 749
    I guess you are referring to the lack of cargo space when the back seats are up in the Escape. Otherwise passenger and cargo space with the back seat down are better in the Escape than the Passat.

    Now the handling, interior noise, features, etc. are much better in the Passat, but space to me is not one the Escape's problems.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I must admit I was not happy with Budget when they substituted an Escape for an Explorer. Our two suitcases would not fit behind the back seat so I threw them on the back seat. I only got stuck with it one day till they gave me an Explorer. It was not as quiet as the Explorer and of course not as much room. I would have lived with it if they would have given me a lower rate. Calling the Escape the same as an Explorer is false advertising in my book. It is my only experience with the vehicle and it was not pleasant, especially after 8 hours of flying.
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