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Hybrid vs Diesel
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Comments
How is this? Relatively speaking Honda has been all but shut out of the EU market. They had nothing the Europeans wanted including the underpowered HCH. They finally woke up and smelled the diesel. They had to buy engines from another company to get a car the EU would buy. I am glad they came around, it just took them a long time to get it right. How many hybrids do you think they will sell in Europe one maybe two. Remember they have the Accord with i-CDTI that will run all day at 100+ mph and still get better mileage than the HAH. People driving the HAH have to drive 55-60 to get close to EPA estimates. What kind of car is that? Even our old 1990 LS400 V8 gets 27 MPG driving 80+ out on the Interstate.
I'd be more than willing to do the same trip with any maker's hybrid to see what the mpg would be!
I'm anti-American for what view?
In the USA, when you compare SIMILAR CARS like the HCH and the Jetta TDI, neither car is a "gas guzzler."
In Europe, when you can choose between an Accord diesel at 42 MPG and a gas Accord at 32 MPG, the best choice for high MPG is obvious.
You cannot make that choice in the USA.
You "can" make this choice in the USA:
Accord Hybrid 29/37
Accord V6 21/30
Again, the choice is obvious if MPG is your goal.
Actually, Honda designed on their own one of the cleanest, top 10 engines in the world, the i-CTDi they use in the Accord Diesel and now in the Euro CR-V diesel.
You have hit it right on the head. The Japanese build cars to go 55-60. The handling and braking are not equal to the European competition. That is not lost on the EU buyers. Toyota had to beef up the brakes on the Prius to get it into their market. I was just reading the specs on the new RX400h. It goes 0-60 real fast. It goes from 70-0 in an appalling 200 feet. That is substandard for what is touted a luxury performance car. Honda is notorious for poor braking. I would think they would want their cars to stop as well as they accelerate. I guess the market they appeal to, are not worried about braking only getting from 0-60 real fast.
Actually, I got 52.75 Miles Per Gallon averaging 74.5 MPH in my 2004 manual tranny HCH in December for a 6.5 hour drive from Phoenix to El Paso, with a loaded down car. In the whole 2,568 mile trip, I averaged 47.6 MPG with a lot of cold weather (15F-35F) driving and a lot of 75-80 MPH highway travel.
And you are anti math also eh?
Just a thought!
PF Flyer
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You cannot make that choice in the USA.
You "can" make this choice in the USA:
Accord Hybrid 29/37
Accord V6 21/30
Again, the choice is obvious if MPG is your goal. "
Perhaps you are having a thinking out of the box issue or what comes first: chicken or egg calculation. But I suspect these artificial parameters are there for a reason. So if you look at the GLOBAL choices...
..."Again (to use your words sic) the choice is obvious if MPG is your goal. "...
DIESEL!
Someone else want to make an effort to explain this to me?:
"Well perhaps you are an anti American proponent. Let's see, an Accord American, gets 32 and the VW Jetta TDI gets 49 mpg. Hmmm... I guess because it is in America it is totally not obvious which is the GASS GUZZLER?
I'm not sure what he was trying to say, at all.
You are absolutely right and I applaud them. I understand they have built a 1.7 i-CDTI for the Civic, to replace the borrowed Izusu diesel.
As for your mileage on your trip that was very good. Too bad the HAH did not carry on the tradition of great economy started with the HCH. That does not change the fact that it is not viable in the EU. The Prius will sell some in the EU just because it is different. If given a choice between a Civic diesel & hybrid I say 99 out of 100 will take the diesel. Remember the cross country review between the HCH and Civic gasser. The hybrid ran out of steam on the long uphill stretches. They did get basically the same mileage you got. So it is safe to say that is what a person should expect from the HCH. I would recommend the Hybrid Civic to anyone looking for a great economy car. I would also recommend the VW TDI's.
The thing about being on a winning team be it diesel or hybrid, is they're both winners. We're also winners IF, and I emphasize If, we accept the premise that we must be responsible with our AIR, OUR FOSSIL FUELS, and our EGOS. Yes, I said EGOS. In our society we flaunt our statis with glitz and glamour and SIZE. Huge seems to be much better than practicality. The main reason we're into the new hybrids and diesels is because we know that problems are lurking just around the corner if we continue our direction and don't heed the many warnings that environmentalists keep spouting our way.
Last thing I'd like to point out is that railroad people like myself were blessed with the joy of, "playing with trains and getting paid for it". One more point. Steam was nostalgic and a much missed era but it was hard work and very dirty. That was the truth that got lost in the past.
Culliganman (toot,toot-ding,ding)
And Civic Hybrid gets 51 mpg. Insight gets 68 mpg. Hmmm...
<Insert Oil burner here>
True. While we can’t get Accord diesel here, we could use Jeep Liberty for comparison, a vehicle available with diesel (2.8/I-4) and gasoline (3.7/V6).
Price premium on diesel is $1400 (“4X4 Limited” models with the two engine options). Ignoring the 290 lb. or so the diesel four banger version weighs over the V6 version, the diesel claim better EPA rating compared to the gasoline version.
3.7/V6: 17/22 mpg (gasoline)
2.8/I-4: 21/27 mpg (diesel)
Now, where I live, the current price of fuel (price true as of this morning):
Gasoline: $1.80/gallon
Diesel: $2.00/gallon
Fuel economy advantage to the diesel is better in city. Assume 100% city driving and 100% compliance with EPA estimate, over 12K miles in a year. Cost of fuel,
Gasoline Version: $1270
Diesel Version: $1143
That’s a “whopping” $127 in savings for a premium of $1400. Same savings over time would require 11 years of driving to recuperate the premium in the USA. Well, this is the math I have learnt from participating in anti-hybrid debates. But too bad we don’t have hybrid version to throw into the mix.
While you know what you mean, and *I* may understand what you're trying to say, I can guarantee that pointing out idiocy in a post will NEVER be interpretted by the poster as anything other than a personal attack.
Even a simple response like, "What are you trying to say? I didn't quite understand." might get a shot back at you wondering whether YOUR comprehension skills are up to snuff.
The single hardest thing to do in a posting is to say exactly what you mean and have it interpretted in the way you intended by those reading it. That's how most explosions happen around here. The first misinterpretation leads to a small shot back, followed by an escalation in rhetoric, and suddenly you have people pulling quotes from each other's posts to respond point by point and prove that they are right and you're not.
Since I have the flu and my head is swimming right now, I'll say what I came to say...
Let's stick to discussing the topic and not each other please!
PF Flyer
Host
Pickups & News & Views Message Boards
The MAZDA MANIA Chat is on tonight. Hope to see YOU there! Check out the schedule
I have looked for economy every time I bought a new vehicle. I usually end up with a full size truck, as it is the most practical for me and they hold their value. I always weigh the issues of size vs economy when buying. To me a full size Chevy that gets 14/18 is more practical than a small truck that gets 18/22. Especially when I buy the small truck and it gets closer to 15/19 mpg. As little as I drive the cost of gas is inconsequential. So I opt for the size, comfort and safety. If I ever sell my Suburban it will be to buy a small diesel PU truck. As you know they do not exist in America so my Suburban has to do the hauling duties until that time comes along. I think the EPA & CARB have brought a lot of this Large PU & SUV purchasing on the American public. If the mileage of the smaller rig is insignificant, less than 6 mpg difference, why not buy the bigger more comfortable vehicle. You can see that trend in all areas of vehicles. My 1978 Accord would fit in the trunk of a 2005 Accord, almost. I always got 28/32 on that old POC car. Too bad it was so prone to overheating. You cannot blame the American public for buying all the big SUV's. They are programmed that way by the automakers and oil companies. As long as oil stays under $50 per barrel the trend will continue.
PS
I'll bet you have some great railroad stories.
You are correct. If you remember several people have done that exact same analysis between the HAH and Accord V6. It would take 29 years to break even. That is if you are getting EPA on the HAH. Even worse is the Dodge Ram PU with Cummins Deisel. The difference over a V8 Hemi is $7000. You could never recoup that difference. You can haul a lot more. And from the reviews I have read the Liberty CRD is a much better offroad option than the gas version. Diesel has more than just economy as an advantage.
2 Corvettes
2 trains
2 people
1 Diesel fuel truck
1 Refrigerater (yea!)
2 Payloaders
and a partridge in a pear tree. Most of the vehicles were diesel powered...maybe thats why I'm PRO-HYBRID (ha-ha)
So the host can tollerate this thread I'll say seriously that the real reason I'm leaning toward HYBRIDS more is, as they say, "the proofs in the pudding" My Prius gets great milage. I've had her well over 100 MPH and she's rock solid(must be those great airodynamics) and the low,low pollutents make sense. Test drive one for more than a day and you might come away with a better understanding why we Prius-People are so content and a bit giddy while passing Hummers loading up in gas-stations.
Culliganman(HIGHBALL!!)
P.S. By the way, why , after all these yrs, do diesel vehicles have to be so darn noisey? Can't someone remedy this quirk? It's like Harley-riders and their loud pipes announcing their coming and going.
I think the hybrid concept is good. I am a simple thinking person. I don't believe the Prius reaches the level of simplicity that I could entertain. I know that all cars have gotten more complex to satisfy every need under the sun. I don't like being a prisoner of the very automakers that ran the railroads out of business. With the hybrids you are a prisoner of the manufacturer. At least for a few years. We did not have an independent Lexus repair in San Diego until 18 months ago. We were prisoners to the whims and exorbitant prices that the dealers charge. When the warranty runs out, and you don't have an out, you are in deep trouble.
www.greencarcongress.com has article on Finland establishing a Bio-Diesel production plant. Looks like Diesel (Cetane) is asking for 50 : 50 share in the Transport market with Gasolene / Petrol (Octane). Meanwhile there is a new player. LPG (Propane) powered vehicles are 9 million Worldwide at the end of 2002.
US should also have more Diesel powered vehicles like EU.
If your diesel only got 48, which one is the fuel guzzler...in your own words.
Both 48 and 53 are GREAT numbers, in my opinion.
But I'd rather have the 53.
Certainly Hybrid is the best in current technology. But as a fuel, Diesel has more energy / volume and is better than Gasolene.
In the near future, the order will be
Diesel-Hybrid
Gasolene-Hybrid
LPG-Hybrid.
Keep it up.
2 Corvettes
2 trains
2 people
1 Diesel fuel truck
1 Refrigerater (yea!)
2 Payloaders
and a partridge in a pear tree. Most of the vehicles were diesel powered...maybe thats why I'm PRO-HYBRID (ha-ha) "
Yes makes sense: gunning for a couple of hybrids to round out your portfolio!?
And Civic Hybrid gets 51 mpg. Insight gets 68 mpg. Hmmm...
<Insert Oil burner here> <unquote>
Like I have said; more than once in a few posts, you have a deep affinity to turn everything adversarial!
What I did in the real world (irregardless of your attempt at causing artificial conflict and trying your darn est to be a burl in the saddle) was to get a Honda Civic GASSER at 29/38 mpg.
What is at issue here? COST!!! Specifically cost per mile driven. The HCH was 20,000, the Honda Civic was 12,000. for a difference of 8,000 dollars. You'd absolutely laugh at the BE points; if you were not so wedded to the adversarial fight and the higher cost concept of the hybrid! You may see this as the quest for the "holy grail" but...
So at 2 dollars currently a gal 8000 dollars will buy 144,000 miles of commuting fuel, 36 mpg which equates to 11 years of commuting at 50 miles per day R/T.
In response to ...
..."Not enough info. We don't know how fast you were driving over the Blue Ridge Mountains. You might drive like me (crawling along at 55), and the diesel owner might go 80."...
If you care to do the math, it is easy to find the average speed.
The point here was: I could have easily gotten 55- 60 mpg going at hybrid speeds.
I can even map quest the route. But as the host said folks are pretty dug in, so if you want me to confuse you with the facts, I can.
=============================================
Not enough info. We don't know how fast you were driving over the Blue Ridge Mountains. You might drive like me (crawling along at 55), and the diesel owner might go 80.
troy
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