Hybrid vs Diesel

gagrice

The overall global consumption of cars is not at all affected by when I trade in my car for a new one...someone else will drive my trade-in.

 

Maybe someone will buy your used car. It still imposes it's Life Cycle on the planet. The pollution from the manufacturing process does not go away if the car is sitting on a used car lot. It can only be calculated on the total life of the car.

 

That being the case, a car that lasts 200k miles will have much less impact on the planet than two cars that are driven 100k miles each. The longer the car is kept in good operating condition the better overall impact it will have on all of us. If everyone that drives a hybrid dumps it with 100k miles or less those cars are a bigger problem than the fellow that drives his diesel 300k miles over a 10-20 year period.

ruking1

Yup, you have hit the nail on the head on this issue.

yerth10

Dont assume that a hybrid vehicle can run only 100K miles. Already a Canadian cab driver has driven his Toyota-Prius-I for 200K miles. After this its Hybrid system was intact.

 

Dont ask whether it will go for 300K miles. We got to see it. Certainly it will.

larsb

I certainly understand the concepts.

 

But the REALITY remains that such a small number of people keep their cars that long it's not really making much of a dent in the "global consumption" equation. Honda is not going to build one more single car just because I trade my car in - they are not related AT ALL.

 

It's like the whole "global warming" issue: We all SEE the problem, and we all KNOW WAYS to help the problem, but the reality on the ground is that most people will not do anything to help if it involves extra effort, extra dollars, or extra walks across the street.

 

I *have* made and will again make at least a little difference by buying one hybrid car, and unless the "perfect diesel" hits the road between now and 2008, I will buy another Hybrid as my next car.

 

And as far as driving a hybrid 100K then trading it, that's better than driving a car which is recycled less completely for 100K miles - my HCH is 90% recyclable. Many cars made today are not. Toyota touts the Prius as 100% recyclable.

ruking1

As you have acknowledged, YOU buying one hybrid car will not make an iota of "global" difference.

 

All cars are "recycle able" The real decisions are highest and best use. This is what the "auto Salvage industry does! Again the average age of the fleet is 8-8.5 years old and app 7-8% of the fleet is "scrapped" per year. Against a back drop of 230 M plus registered cars, folks can do the math. Whether keeping K balled parts pays off or whether it is salvaged for scrap at prevailing rates is truly what happens.

gagrice

my HCH is 90% recyclable. Many cars made today are not. Toyota touts the Prius as 100% recyclable.

 

Cars have been recycled as long as I can remember. I worked in a wrecking yard in the 1950s, we sold every part off the cars that were brought in. Toyota acts like that is some new concept. I would not venture a guess as to how many manual transmissions I overhauled using parts from other transmissions. I don't have the figures but the energy to recycle some materials is more than using new.

 

One of the most important issues facing us is the fact that we throw so much stuff away. The longer you keep anything the less pollution you cause. That is the main reason I am scrutinizing the hybrid so deeply. I think it is not designed for the long haul as cars should be. One Prius cab with 180k miles before it was retired is hardly a good cross section of the hybrid longevity issue.

larsb

quote ruking1-"As you have acknowledged, YOU buying one hybrid car will not make an iota of "global" difference."-end quote

 

No, I have not said that, and it is CERTAINLY not true.

 

I replaced a 2002 Chevy Avalanche that polluted about 10 times more than my hybrid. And I could have purchased many a car that pollutes far more than my hybrid.

 

So my purchase DID affect the environment, and my driving my hybrid every day is better than about 90% of the cars on the road in regard to emissions and harm to the earth...

 

I might make errors from time to time, but nothing this egregious !! Of course my driving a hybrid affects global pollution levels in a positive way, moreso than driving a worse polluter !!

larsb

quote gagrice-"One Prius cab with 180k miles before it was retired is hardly a good cross section of the hybrid longevity issue."-end quote

 

You are correct there, but Prius cars have been driven in Japan since 1997. If there were severe reliability issues or long term battery problems, we would have by now heard about them from our friends across the sea....

ruking1

My goals are more modest. Given the miles I HAVE to do, I want to come close to my SUV cost of depreciation per mile of .028 per mile or even do better with both the TDI and Honda Civic!!

ruking1

It is funny but known primarily only to the Honda enthusiasts that the Honda engines in Japan are considered "HAS BEENS" at the 40,000 mile marker!

larsb

To see some high mileage 1997-2000 Priuses for sale at a global auction site, go here and look:

 

http://english.auto.vl.ru/auctions/search/

 

There are Priuses with 144K, 127K, 140K, 156K, 105K, 134K mileages. Hundreds of them with more than 50K miles. Total of 999 Priuses for sale.

gagrice

If there were severe reliability issues or long term battery problems, we would have by now heard about them from our friends across the sea....

 

I don't think they put the miles on a car that we do in the USA. I was trying to use the auction site. I cannot tell what price they are sold for. Is that the current price like on eBay?

ruking1

 

"EPA Sees Diesel Filling Vital Efficiency, CO2 Reduction Roles "

(Source: Hart's Fuel News, Tuesday, October 1, 2002)

 

http://www.greendieseltechnology.com/news152.html

 

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/reports/adv-tech/420r04002.pdf

 

"Progress Report on Clean and Efficient Auto Technologies Under Development at EPA. Interim Technical Report", Jan 2004 EPA420-R-04-002

03accordman

"No one I know consider the Accord as good as the Passat."

 

I don't know who you know, but I do know a lot of people who have picked an Accord over a Passat. In addition, most auto mags have picked the Accord over the Passat

 

Secondly, 0-60 time is an important parameter that gives you an idea of where the car stands in performance. Also, there are a lot of people out there who swear by 0-60 times, that's why you see most manufacturers tout these numbers. If I just wanted the best gas mileage car, I would pick one of the Japanese microcars that get gazallions kilometres per litre of gas.

 

To me, 5-60 is a more important criteria, as that is real world. I would think that the HAH would smoke a Passat TDI in every gear, at every speed. Please correct me if I am wrong.

03accordman

"One of the recent posters on Passat TDI thread is averaging in the high 30s city low 40s highway. Your HAH will never see that kind of mileage"

 

Similarly, your TDI will never even dream of the performance that the HAH provides

03accordman

You: I guess it's all relative, but you think the HAH is a performance car??? Maybe if you are comparing it only to 4-door family sedans. The HAH is a compromise vehicle on economy and performance, with a not too attractive $30K+ price tag.

If you want to get good mpg on the HAH or any hybrid you're not going to be stomping on the peddle. It's going to kill the mpg. And if you wanted high mpg, the I-4 engine should have been used.

 

Me: i am not saying that the HAH is a performance car, but if you compare its performance with a Passat TDI, its a Corvette Z06!

 

Secondly, why is it difficult for people to understand that meny buyers out there want a car that does not compromise on performance as well as economy? Sure you will hurt the gas mileage by stomping on the gas pedal, but you will do that with every car, right?

03accordman

"My sense is there are a lot more % wise of older VW's"

 

Go to any college campus and look around, you will see a majority of old Civics there, no other car comes close

03accordman

"I see way more complaints about the Accord than any of the VW cars listed"

 

First of all, Honda sells a lot more cars than VW in the US, so automatically you will see more posts about Hondas, not just in Problems, but in all forums.

 

Seocndly, if you look carefully, you will see that VW owners have been having far more serious problems than Honda owners. For this reason, VW sales were more than 14% down in the US this year, and now even publications like Motor trend are mentioning questionalble VW reliability, when generally these kinds of mags never talk about reliability, its always sportiness. i know you will resort to anecdotes, that way I have yet to see a VW which has all its lights working.

03accordman

So because you have 48k miles on a TDI and 6k miles on a Civic and both are flawless, the nod goes to the TDI? I really don't understand this logic other than a bias towards the TDI.

 

Wouldn't it make sense to compare both cars performance at the same mileage?

03accordman

"That being the case, a car that lasts 200k miles will have much less impact on the planet than two cars that are driven 100k miles each"

 

Why do you assume that a Hybrid will run only for 100k miles? I have no doubt in my mind that any Toyota/Honda will outlast any VW, especially going by VWs current record. You may not agree with me, just look at where VW as a company is going worldwide.

ruking1

I am regularly at three, and while there are a lot of Civics, the older ones are VW's

ruking1

Perhaps you didnt understand the other part of what I said, (you know the quote you that you also left off) 48k is much more history than 6k. At 6k both the TDI and Civic were flawless. Would you agree this is same same?

 

The next part of what I said is I have yet to get 48k on the Civic to make a comparison to the TDI at 48k!! So that is why the nod still goes to the TDI. Or is it that you are incredulous that the experience does not conform with your Honda superiority notion?

misterme

"Or is it that you are incredulous that the experience does not conform with your Honda superiority notion?"

 

This is not 03accordman's imagination.

As pointed out it is well documented that Honda's QC is superior to VW by a wide margin, and is widely known. Why do you suppose that many diesel enthusiasts are salivating over Honda's engine?

 

I'll bet the Honda's last longer than the VW, given their good record. In fact, I did bet.

ruking1

"I'll bet the Honda's last longer than the VW, given their good record. In fact, I did bet."

 

The icTDI Honda engine is really a killer application. For sure, you have to give credit where credit is due! I hear (but do not know what it might be here) app 140 hp and 260 # ft of torque and 43 mpg in a Passat sized vehicle! WOO HOO!!

 

No one said it was in his imagination. As I said, I have both. I say based on what I have seen and experienced, I project no problems whatsoever to 100,120k for either: other than tires and brakes on Honda, and just tires on the Jetta. 100-120k the timing belt and water pump change is due on both of them.

gagrice

Seocndly, if you look carefully, you will see that VW owners have been having far more serious problems than Honda owners. For this reason, VW sales were more than 14% down in the US this year,

 

You are ignoring the facts. 2004 has been one of the worst years for Honda reliability EVER. Their transmissions are failing by the thousands, cars catching on fire and rattles by the score. The reason that VW sales have dropped is simple. CA blocked the sales of the the VERY popular TDI. I am sure VW outsells Honda Worldwide, by a bunch. The EU buy more VWs than all other cars. VW is also the largest car manufacturer in China. Total sales in 2004 5,079,000 vehicles. How many Honda's were sold last year? If Honda is really into hybrids, why the very limited numbers built? I think they would like to get out of the hybrid business, but don't know how to get out gracefully.

ruking1

To date I have had no recalls on either. Like VW it was daunting to take the 2004 plunge with the Honda given the research(as you have pointed out about the reliability). So far both have panned out. since the Honda only has app 6,000 it might be too early to tell. Honda's brakes seem to go earlier than the projected TDI brakes of 120-150 k fronts and 90k rears. As a matter of fact they have seemed to be a weakness for a while.

misterme

"I think they would like to get out of the hybrid business, but don't know how to get out gracefully."

 

I guess that's why they just released the HAH, as well as other models following. Guess that's why the '06 HCH is a complete new design with higher performance and efficiency. It must be why Honda is working on a new exclusive Hybrid design car.

Yes, they want to get out of the hybrid business, that's why all major auto makers are about to release hybrid models of their popular vehicles, as well as some specialized performance racers.

 

Ruking1, your Honda might need a belt change but the HCH has a chain. But you knew that already!

:->

ruking1

Yes, I had heard that but did not buy the HCH technical manual so I defer to the TM. I do however have the TM's for VW TDI's and Honda Civic's(among others)

 

This might be unrelated but the 2005 Corolla is the first year of the "chain"

gagrice

as well as other models following

 

What model & when?

misterme

My Honda Service Mgr, as well as the Sales Mgr mentioned that most Honda's will be offered with the Hybrid option in a few years.

Here's an article to back it up:

"Honda is considering a hybrid SUV for the United States"

http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/hybrids27e_20050127.htm

 

Some more links to chew over:

Toyota launches luxury Lexus hybrid SUV:

http://www.just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=47025

 

Lexus RX 400h Review:

"Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive adds V8-like power across the rev range"

http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/roadtest,view,Lexus.spy?artid- - - - - - =35385

 

Nissan Altima to go hybrid in U.S. in '06

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nb20050112a3.h- - - - - - tm

 

"We are launching 12 different hybrid models aimed at high volume segments"

Graphyte concept points to next generation hybrid strategy;

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0501/09/-54839.htm

 

Ford Escape hybrid, the first gas-electric hybrid sport utility vehicle named among top 2 North America's top vehicles Sunday at the North American International Auto Show;

http://www.freep.com/news/statewire/sw109783_20050109.htm

Diesel didn't even make it there.

 

Toyota plans to produce Camry hybrids in the US;

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/01/toyota_to_manuf.html

 

Honda, as well as others are not finding ways to gracefully get out of hybrids.

I have a ton of other links but these should do for now.

gagrice

Fukui also said Honda is considering a hybrid SUV for the United States but the company hasn't made a decision. Honda's U.S. sales unit is asking for one to counter the hybrid Toyota Highlander and Lexus RX models coming this spring.

 

You can read whatever you want into those articles. Toyota has had the prototype for the RX for about 3 years and it is still not in the showrooms. If Honda started today on a Pilot or Ody hybrid it would be 2008 before it went on sale. By 2006 ULSD will be available in every state and real economy diesel cars will be flooding the market by 2008. Honda can make lots more money selling diesel cars than hybrids, so it is a no brainer. If that's not so why are they building hybrids in very low quantities. Hybrids have very little appeal with mainstream car buyers. The people I ask about buying a hybrid laugh and say no way. Diesel cars sell very well where ever they are offered for sale.

03accordman

I would say that the jury is out on that. Just because one of your cars has history doesn't mean that it gets the nod over a newer one. That's all I meant.

larsb

quote gagrice-"The people I ask about buying a hybrid laugh and say no way."-end quote

 

Next time someone says that about a hybrid, ask them "why?" they have such an opinion. Bet you dollars to doughnuts the reasons are something that is caused by a misconception on their part:

 

"You have to plug them in."

"What if you have to drive through water?"

"Not enough power" (Accord Hybrid)

"too expensive" ($18K for a new 2004 HCH MT)

 

Most of the reasons people give for not buying hybrids are COMPLETELY because of ignorance of the technology. Ask them "what, you dont like saving gas money or helping the environment?" I bet it's in part the old adage, 'I care about the environment just about enough to not do anything to help.'

 

On another subject you mentioned:

 

quote gagrice-"Honda can make lots more money selling diesel cars than hybrids, so it is a no brainer."-end quote

 

Honda has a new iCTDI CR-V for sale in March in the UK, and they are not pushing it over the gas version. See this story:

 

http://www.carkeys.co.uk/launches/honda/5555.asp

 

The article indicates that the diesel CR-V will NOT be a great seller in the UK.

 

" Honda emphasises that the petrol CR-V is not only cheaper to buy but has lower whole-life costs (assuming the mileages quoted above), and that its engine is both more powerful and more refined than the diesel."

 

quote gagrice-"If that's not so why are they building hybrids in very low quantities."-end quote

 

They build them as they need them, so as not to have excess inventory, which affects the bottom line financial statements, that's why. There is not a shortage of Honda hybrids.

03accordman

"You are ignoring the facts. 2004 has been one of the worst years for Honda reliability EVER. Their transmissions are failing by the thousands, cars catching on fire and rattles by the score. The reason that VW sales have dropped is simple. CA blocked the sales of the the VERY popular TDI. I am sure VW outsells Honda Worldwide, by a bunch. The EU buy more VWs than all other cars. VW is also the largest car manufacturer in China. Total sales in 2004 5,079,000 vehicles. How many Honda's were sold last year? If Honda is really into hybrids, why the very limited numbers built? I think they would like to get out of the hybrid business, but don't know how to get out gracefully"

 

So you mean to say that VW had a 14% drop in US sales due to the Passad TDI able to be sold in CA? How many TDIs did VW sell before CA stopped their sale? I think that should answer your theory.

 

As for Honda, its a smaller company than VW, no one is debating that. However, where are the 'transmissions failing by the thousands' figures from, and the car fires? Do you want me to go into the sludge and coil issues that VW has had? And how about the fused bulbs that VW cars have as a trademark? To all the contributors in this forum, I request you to please keep an eye out for VWs on the road, and please note the large majority that has one or the other bulb fused. Would appreciate if you can post your observations.

 

Also, please check up on the VW sales drop worldwide not just in the US. Honda sales have been going up comparitively. Anyway, I as a US buyer am more concerned what the manufacturer is doing in the US, than in Europe or Asia. Sure, in China VW is really strong, that's because they have been there for eons! In India, Suzuki has a 44% market share out of a million vehicles sold every year, does that mean they are better than VW/Audi, who sell really few Audi's there?

 

As for Honda trying to get out of the Hybrid business, I disagree with you on that, and only time will tell. I believe both Honda and Toyota will make great inroads into Hybrid technology, and the day isn't far when most of their offerings will have a hybrid option. Also, there is no discounting the fact that there could be diesel hybrids, and again, IMO, these two companies will be at the forefront.

ttr4

us government does not really want high efficient vehicles if so hybrids diesel would be subsidized. Special interest, big oil are heavy spenders in Washington. examples : low tax credit for hybrids, b20, bio deisel lowers emmision on diesels sufficiently, technology here to have clean diesel autos, bosh filter etc.

Most important, Texas a&m has produced an engine starrotor that claims to be multi fuel, 4 times more efficent and has been running in test stage for months. http://www.starrotor.com

If our government would attack the oil problem like they attacked putting a man on the moon, there would be no oil problem, no Middle East problem and no pollution problem. So to summarize, the problem is not energy it's political will!

ruking1

Let me put it annother way, If I said the nod went to the Civic, over a VW with reverse numbers; 48k on the Civic and 6k on the TDI: then what would you say?

electrictroy

I was just talking to a coworker who drove both a Prius, an Insight, and a VW Golf. He chose to buy the Golf Diesel, and I asked him why:

 

"Because the diesel was the only car that could climb the North Carolina mountains without slowing down or shifting, and still give me 40 mpg."

 

troy

larsb

Well, that's one man's opinion. Glad he likes his Golf. I took my HCH on a mountain climbing trip up to 12,000 feet last Fall and I got 48.8 MPG on a 300 mile day trip up and back down.

 

But once again, let me repeat: All cars with ANY ENGINE will do poorly on MPG when climbing steep grades. It's called "gravity" and it pulls on any vehicle.

ruking1

Well certainly it is! Just like buying an HCH is one man's opinion?? Through the rocky mountains I got 48 miles a gal also. It was a 606 mile trip that took 7 hrs.with two 15 min nature breaks.So I considered getting 48 mpg remarkable, given the above conditions! I wish all my cars did this "poorly"

misterme

Interesting. Last Spring Me and my family of 5 took a trip from Atlanta into Franklin, NC and rented a mountain top cabin. We drove another 50 or so miles sightseeing at the Antique tourist traps there, still in the Blueridge Mountains. Two days later we headed south and went to Charleston, SC via Greensboro on the coast and spent another 2 days touring the WWII aircraft carrier, submarine etc and had a blast. The mountains and long, drawn out rolling hills never quit until almost to the coast. Luggage weight was likely around 350lbs and it all went into the trunk.

When we reached Atlanta again I calculated 53MPG trip average.

 

Your co-worker's test Insight must have been malfunctioning if they couldn't even get 40MPG.

larsb

I'm talking about the "uphill" portion of mountain driving. What goes up must come down, so you have the benefit of the downhills to compensate.

 

My point was that any vehicle "while climbing up" is going to do "poorly" in regard to MPG during the actual climb.

 

Your 48 MPG (and mine) was that high because of the downhill portion of the drive, that was my point.

 

And every person brings "one person's opinion" to these forums. I was pointing out that that one man who thought the Golf TDI does better in the mountains, well, that's not a FACT, that was HIS OPINION.

 

It is a FACT that buying an HCH for a person who does mostly short city commutes is a smart move for ANYONE with that sort of driving pattern. A far better choice than a diesel, which has it's claim to fame at highway cruising speeds.

larsb

No, I'm not leaving out logic, just stating facts:

 

2005 Civic Hybrid MT City EPA rating: 46 mpg

2005 Golf TDI MT City EPA Rating: 38 mpg

 

Which will do better in City driving?

 

As for Highway driving on hills, sure the TDI might have more torque, (177 lbs versus 116 lbs for the HCH) but the MPG achieved will STILL be likely higher in the HCH, which beats the TDI Hwy rating at 51 versus 46.

 

Using that extra torque requires extra fuel.

electrictroy

I thought the only difference was the warranty (PZEV=150,000 miles on emissions).

 

troy

electrictroy

I'm going to repeat what my coworker said, since some of you don't understand it...

 

"Because the diesel was the only car that could climb the North Carolina mountains ***without slowing down or shifting***..."

  

His concern is not the MPG. His concern is convenience.

 

troy

larsb

OK, I will confess that the HCH is not the best car for "racing through a mountain pass."

 

It's not made for speed, it's made for maximizing MPG.

 

Actually, as I pull my tongue out of the side of my cheek, I am alluding to the phenomenon of "hurry up!" that has seemed to permeate the USA culture over the past 25 years or so.

 

If the man has a mountain drive, and he usually races through it in 30 minutes, WHAT IS WRONG with leaving 15 minutes earlier and taking 45 minutes for the same trip, and saving on fuel?

 

People just need to stop racing around from red light to red light and conserve by using a lighter foot.

larsb

"having extra torque" and "using extra torque" are two different things.

 

If you floor your car to the point that the torque is engaged, you will SUFFER in the MPG column.

 

If you and I were to "race" through a mountain pass, and you USED your extra torque to race ahead of me and leave me behind, you WILL NOT ACHIEVE the same higher MPG as I will because you used more fuel applying your extra torque.

ruking1

So did you change the subject again? Who besides you is talking of racing???

larsb

wanted the added "convenience of not slowing down or downshifting" and I just said if that is the reason he bought the TDI, he just needs to stop trying to race and slow down.

moparbad

Instead of making this a VW vs. Honda debate, why not compare the technologies?

Honda makes a Hybrid Accord and Diesel Accord, Honda makes a Hybrid Civic and a Diesel Civic.

robertsmx

Warranty is about sales pitch. If you take it for reliability, then something suddenly changed when several automakers started claiming 7-10 year warranty on drive train (mostly, non-transferable, though) while VW provided just 2-years on it.