Hybrid vs Diesel

larsb

I have "owned" about 15 cars in my lifetime, and only two of them have reached "paid in full" status.

 

I wouldn't know what "not having a car payment" would feel like !!!

gagrice

I'll take my 39 cents per mile cost over 60K-90K miles and be happy I'm driving new technology every 3-4 years....

 

That kind of logic is the reason that Toyota & Honda are getting rich on their throwaway cars. If we demanded that cars last at least 15 years and refused to buy cheap junk our junk yards and landfills would not be overflowing. We would be financially better off as a country.

 

The interest alone would be a huge savings. Buying a car on time is a losing decision. When interest was a write-off it could be marginally justified. It no longer has any advantage unless the interest rate is less than 1%. Drive your car another five years and save that additional cash. You will find yourself less likely wanting to spend the cash in your bank account for a new car. Trust me I know. Then when you drive it another 5 years and have enough saved to buy a new home cash you will thank me. We are so programmed to buy, buy, buy that it seems smart. It is anything but smart.

larsb

Gary, what is the logic/reasoning/justification of how you all of a sudden rate Hybrids as "throw away" cars?

 

How many times do I need to point out that the percentage of people who keep cars past 100K miles is MINISCULE in the big picture?

 

All cars of ANY TYPE will be driven by SOMEONE until they cannot be repaired. Nothing about a Hybrid car makes it more or less likely to be driven for a shorter period than a comparable gas or diesel car!!!

robertsmx

You’re worried about decency. I questioned consistency. It would help for a discussion to have a baseline. Are you up for it? Then we will discuss it all. I don't want to see a change in tone at some point, just trying to avoid it.

ruking1

Here, Here! I would agree!!

 

My other sense of it is with a 15 year average fleet age (vs 8-8.5 year currently, you can cut your junk or salvage rate in half or to 4% per year!!

ruking1

Yes you do consistently misrepresent what is said. That I think IS your baseline.

gagrice

Nothing about a Hybrid car makes it more or less likely to be driven for a shorter period than a comparable gas or diesel car!!!

 

That is total speculation on your part. We know how long many makes and models of ICE cars last. We do not have a history of hybrids. You cannot judge by hybrids sold in Japan. The Japanese are notorious low mileage drivers. Their cars rust away and the engines and transmissions only have 30k-40k miles on them. That is a huge business in the USA, buying low mileage engines from Japan.

 

You are the one saying you keep a car 3-4 years and dump it. That to me is a throwaway of good value. You justify the pollution of manufacturing the car with the adage that someone else will buy it when you discard it. I disagree. Millions of cars sit in used car lots as their Life Cycle keeps on ticking. The only plus to your philosophy is the car is not polluting while it sits on the lot. As long as you refuse to accept the fact that the bulk of pollution in a car's life cycle and especially a hybrid is in the manufacturing process you will think you are being environmentally friendly. A person that uses his car for a million miles has done us all a much greater service than the person that buys 10 cars and drives them 100k miles and sells them. The only ones that benefit from the second scenario are the automakers as they laugh at our foolishness all the way to the bank.

larsb

quote gagrice-"That to me is a throwaway of good value. You justify the pollution of manufacturing the car with the adage that someone else will buy it when you discard it. I disagree. Millions of cars sit in used car lots as their Life Cycle keeps on ticking."

 

OF COURSE used cars sit in used car lots - but not forever !! They ALL get sold one day or another ! And most within 43-71 days !!

 

No car sits "the rest of it's life" on a used car lot !!

 

It is not my estimation or a guess that a car I trade in will get bought by someone else - it's a FACT !!!

 

And yes, it's a given that people who drive a car a million miles (both of them) are doing a "great service" and making a "great sacrifice" for the rest of us. Unless that car is polluting it's rear end off for 1 million miles !!

 

As I explained CLEARLY when we had this discussion a few weeks ago (deja vu to you too?) it makes not ONE IOTA of difference in the total amount of cars built on this earth whether YOU or I or BOB or JOHN drives his car 10K miles or 100K miles - Toyota/Honda/Ford are not going to cut or increase production either way...

 

In fact, we can test that: let's both e-mail all the manufacturers from their websites and say, "Hey, I'm going to keep my car for a million miles, do you think for the sake of the environment that you can produce one or two less cars this year, to make up for me not buying another one for a few years?"

 

I am trying to show how silly that idea is - did it work?

ruking1

It really goes to highlight how much ANY car truly does cost!! While it might not be everyones goal, I see it worthwhile to keep the per mile cost as low as possible!.

 

One of the kickers that I did mention was it would become cost efficient to get a new car when the mpg is 138 !!! The problem with that is the governments at ALL levels would hardly let you get 138 mpg without SUBSTANTIALLY raising the COST per mile!!!

larsb

"That is total speculation on your part. We know how long many makes and models of ICE cars last. We do not have a history of hybrids. You cannot judge by hybrids sold in Japan."

 

I also posted that Russian auction site last week that had Priuses from 1997-current with 154K, 147K, 132K, 127K etc mileages.....

gagrice

it makes not ONE IOTA of difference in the total amount of cars built on this earth whether YOU or I or BOB or JOHN drives his car 10K miles or 100K miles - Toyota/Honda/Ford are not going to cut or increase production either way...

 

How terribly wrong you are. If we all kept our cars for 16 years instead of 8 the manufacturers would not be able to sell all the cars they build and would cut back to half of what they are building today. I'll keep mine 16 years and save all that money you enjoy sending to the bank of Tokyo.

kyfdx

I agree with gagrice....

 

That said.. I'm not doing it.. ;-)

ruking1

I would also agree! The salvage industries junk rate of 8% per year really belies the fact that there was a 2% growth in REGISTERED vehicles. So there is a min of 10% in sales per year!(8% replacement and 2% growth

 

page 18, registered vehicles

 

2002: 225,684,815

 

2003: 230,199,000

 

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/PPT/2003EARelease.pd- - - - - - f

 

 

So 4,515,195 (increased vehicles or 2% GROWTH ONLY) x (say 20,000 per) is $ 90,303,900,000.00, I wonder what that converts to in the various levels of taxation?

 

So it will be interesting what the statistics for 2004 will bring in this regard.

gagrice

So 4,515,195 (increased vehicles or 2% GROWTH ONLY) x (say 20,000 per) is $ 90,303,900,000.00

 

Carry that a bit further. 2,546,860 Full Size PU trucks were sold last year, at a much higher cost. We are talking some serious money generated. I can see why the automakers are dragging their feet building hybrids at a loss. How many of those trucks were diesel? My Dodge dealer sells every diesel Ram PU that he can get. They get about $7000 more than the Hemi V8 model.

 

Then take into consideration PU trucks in general last much longer than cars. It is no wonder so many people are buying SUVs and PU trucks just to be safer.

ruking1

You can also get a feeling for the estimated average in that app 12% (27.624 m) of the total fleet (230,199,815) are registered SUV's.

 

Gosh, I am starting to sound like Carl Sagon talking about stars in the universe!

dewey

" we all kept our cars for 16 years instead of 8 "

 

Gagrice,

 

make it 22 years and still counting. My wife and I intend to be driving our 83 Mercedes 300D for for a few more decades. If I bought a Toyota Prius today, it would be unlikely that we or our children would still be driving that same Prius in 22 years---the maintenance costs would likely be too high and it we would better off buying a new car!! And that is exactly what Toyota would want us to do!

 

gagrice

make it 22 years and still counting.

 

That is great. My wife's 1990 LS400 still runs like a champ. I was about to dump it when we found a great Lexus mechanic. He charges about 2/3 less than the dealer. I imagine it will still be in great shape at 22 years. Every year you keep a car it is money in the bank. If you never pay your car off it is still money in the bank, just not in your name.

 

We are seriously looking at the diesel MB Sprinter conversion vans by AirStream. They are getting 22/25 mpg. Nothing comes close to that for traveling cross country.

ruking1

What kind of miles have you turned on your 1983 MB 300D ?

 

I saw the MB Sprinter on the freeway! If indeed the diesel version gets 22/25 mpg, that is indeed awesome! Especially for a vehicle the size of a bread truck, if the Sprinter that I saw is an example!! I mean why would you want to get a compact car??? Or even an SUV if most of the driving is not off road?

gagrice

Here is a poster that is getting 22 mpg using the Sprinter as a plumbing truck. I can get a plushed out one with on the move satelite TV for about $70k.

 

armchair67, "Dodge Sprinter" #100, 25 Nov 2004 4:29 am

larsb

You guys missed my point - what I said was completely true "whether you or I or Joe or Bob keeps a car 3 or 30 years makes no impact on the total production of cars in the world.".

 

That is ABSOLUTELY 100% TRUE.

 

To make an impact, it would take MILLIONS of Joes Bobs Toms and Bills to decide to keep a car 30 yrs-not happnin!

ruking1

NO !

 

I just thing you are getting around to what I and others have been saying all along.

 

When you talk about 230M plus passenger fleet vehicle populations, it has been more than amply demonstrated (whether you agree with that or not) that the majority of the GASSER population is truly the problem and not hybrid and/or diesels. Diesels are 2.3-2.9% of the population and hybrids are far less than that!

 

So it is more along the lines of: "drop in the bucket" grains of sand on a mile long beach etc. Even the "killer" suv's which are at 12% of the population, in the totality of things is NOT the problem.

gagrice

To make an impact, it would take MILLIONS of Joes Bobs Toms and Bills to decide to keep a car 30 yrs-not happnin!

 

I thought YOU wanted to make an impact on the environment. You are not helping the situation when you buy a highly polluting hybrid every 3-4 years and not see it through it's life cycle. When I say polluting hybrid I am referring to the study done by Toyota that shows how much more the hybrid pollutes in the manufacturing process. I am sure the batteries and electrical account for much of the added pollution. Who cares as long as they spew it in China and Japan. Keep that hybrid manufacturing in Asia, we don't want the extra pollution. Especially with the throwaway mentality of those that buy them. You are not the only one that plans to dump their hybrid before it can dump on them. I can guarantee that one Suburban kept for 15 years pollutes less than 3 hybrids kept for 5 years and dumped.

ruking1

It is also why keeping something like a TDI for 500,000-1,000,000 miles is far less consumptive (in many ways) than the anti diesel folks are promoting. Common sense will point to the notion that having one car 1 vs 10-17 during the same 500,000 to 1,000,000 mile lifetime is FAR less consumptive.

 

(as counter intuitive as the anti diesel folks wish to make it seem)

 

In closing, LESS durability is being built in: NOT more. This means ever increasing consumption of resources: NOT more!

ruking1

ruking1

OK. Another graphic one.

 

Given the fact that diesel gets 37% better fuel mileage, if (big IF, here)...

 

ALL the non diesel population of 230 Million +plus gasser vehicles were diesel (given NHTSA total mileage traveled projection in 2003) TO GO THE SAME PROJECTED MILEAGE, would structurally require 37% LESS FUEL that what the gassers have used !!!!!!!???

misterme

The idea that the typical diesel car lasts 500,000 - a million miles, and that people can expect that from one is false.

 

I have indisputable proof. Open your eyes.

 

It would take more than 50 years for the typical driver to drive that distance. Since most gas cars last 10 years on average it would mean that the roads would be packed with diesel autos dated back to the 60's.

 

They must be congregating in Vermont or somewhere else, because we don't see any of them here, unless stuck behind a smelly 7-year old one.


Where are all these hundreds of thousands of diesels now? Either in the junk yards next to the gas cars, or melted down to make re bar.

 

Truth is, the typical owner will never get the 500,000- million miles some here claim. To claim that diesel autos last that long is false, misleading and just wrong.

 

Look at the used car ads in diesel cars vs gas ones and you'll see virtually no difference in mileage driven. Since Hybrids run on gasoline, it should be about the same.

ruking1

"The idea that the typical diesel car lasts 500,000 - a million miles, and that people can expect that from one is false"

 

The idea that it is "typical" is a false construct of your creation.! So truly you should open YOUR own eyes. Salvage statistics say app 8% of the passenger vehicle fleet per year is junked. Also that 12-15k per year is AVERAGE: for a fleet average age of 8.5 years. This has been said in more than one post.

 

Next you will probably assert that getting 250,000 miles on a gasser is false!?

 

posted by dewey:.

 

..."make it 22 years and still counting. My wife and I intend to be driving our 83 Mercedes 300D (diesel... my sic)for for a few more decades. If I bought a Toyota Prius today, it would be unlikely that we or our children would still be driving that same Prius in 22 years---the maintenance costs would likely be too high and it we would better off buying a new car!! And that is exactly what Toyota would want us to do"...

 

So given my yearly consumption rate I would be easily at 660,000 miles.

    

The other main point which you either continue to ignore, will not acknowledge, or do not comprehend is the fact that buying "new every two" as a concept is MUCH MORE consumptive of resources than 4/6/8 etc longer years (being the operative point)!! Whether you agree or disagree with the concept is again your right. So until we deal with the structural underpinnings of why the salvage rate IS 8% per year, why the average age of the fleet IS 8.5 years then SOS DD! AND ever increasing consumption of energy!!??

gagrice

Look at the used car ads in diesel cars vs gas ones and you'll see virtually no difference in mileage driven.

 

I just took a quick look at Auto Trader On-Line. I found 32 Mercedes 300D series cars for sale with 200,000-300,000 miles. I also looked at Honda Accord for those same model years and found 1 with 200k miles. I would say more Honda Accords were sold than Mercedes diesels in the 1978-1985 period. Probably 10 to 1 in favor of the Accords. I can tell you where they are at. In the junk yards. Oh and there were NO Camrys with over 125k miles for sale.

 

You may have yourself believing that a gas engine is in a league with diesel engine for longevity. You don't have anyone fooled that knows better. How many semi tractors do you think use gas?

ruking1

Also it is not uncommon for semi rigs to do 100-150k miles per year.!!

 

It is a documented fact that diesels engines per se last longer and are more robust than gasser engines!

 

Also (the nexus of gasser hybrid vs diesel) most of the so called wear items have almost NOTHING to do with diesel and/or gasser wear. Whether you buy new every two or your vehicle is 20 years old, your brakes will wear! When they are out of tolerance, you change them. Tires same way, shocks/struts? SAME!!!

gagrice

Some things just wear out and are not covered by warranty. Brakes, belts, hoses, tires. You know what goes out on our trucks in the arctic? Heater motors get replaced about once a year. So when I hear all this about electric motors lasting a long time, I have to laugh. Hybrid owners will soon find out, unless they do the obvious and dump them when the warranty is gone. They will also learn that the dealers will not give them much for a car out of warranty. No matter what the Blue Book might say...

 

I never expect to put 500k miles on a vehicle. I just want it to last a LONG time. A car that is 15 years old with only 80k miles should not have a lot of problems. If it does it gets my POC sticker and I will not forget when I buy another vehicle. I don't need a diesel for longevity as much as it's other attribute, SUPERIOR mileage compared to gas.

ruking1

Yes, for sure the time owned and the mileage put on can be radically different. Some folks can indeed own a car 15 years and put on 80,000 miles. Others can put on 40,000 miles per year.

railroadjames

Since it's important to know what one talks about .....I WILL.....Being a retired locomotive engineer for 30 yrs I have to chuckle when I see a comparison of a heater motor to a Hybrid motor. Lets see... G.M. Locomotive engines are duel powered (diesel motors that send power to huge generaters that power the real power system of a locomotive...TRACTION MOTORS. Most locomotive engines where I worked ran 24/7 and I do mean constant for litteraly months. Those traction motors, under extreem wear and tear showed tremendous durability. I think Honda & Toyota have developed quality motors that time has already shown will meet the test of durability. Their 8yr/100K warranty means that they stand behind their hybrid system. I too have to laugh when you show an amazing lack of common sense with your laughable comparison. No disrespect intended. By the way, if you asked most car manufacturers they will tell you that one of the most replaced items in cars today are power window motors and heater motors. Why? Because they're cheaply made or at the least less than high quality (keeping costs down). Lastly I too once owned a diesel Rabbit and when it got sub-zero of course it had its own set of problems (gelling) even when additives were added.

Culliganman(no cars are all things but some are getting close)

gagrice

when I see a comparison of a heater motor to a Hybrid motor.

 

As long as you brought up the comparison with diesel electric locomotives. How many years did it take GM to build a dependable electric motor for a locomotive? Secondly locomotives don't start and stop like a car, which has to add stress to all components. I believe the jury is still out on the practicality of hybrid cars. If they were practical you would think that GM, that has way more experience with hybridization than any company on the planet would have adapted their experience to cars. If hybrids survive and thrive it will be at least 10 years before mainstream America accept them. Most people are not interested in being guinea pigs for the automakers.

railroadjames

Here's a list cars that go on and on that were undeniably mistakes that America car buyers should not have had to endure....

        1) Ford Pinto

        2) Corvair

        3) Monza (a glorified Vega)

        4) Edsel

__The complaint list on just these cars alone boggle the mind. Owners of these cars might tell you they were guinea pigs I think.

__Your wishful thinking that G.M. (actually E.M.D....Electro Motive Division) should apply their talents to build hybrids is like asking JOHN DEERE to build locomotives. As to your question as to how long it took G.M. to develope their first engines. It was just after WWII. We went from steam to diesel in about 3-4 yrs. and many of those original engines are still in operation today with only a few modifications of updating. What is your point about stress and starting and stopping.If your directing that point to the regenerative brakes on the Prius then I would ask you...Have you ever heard of "Dynamic Brakes"? We use them on road engines to effect our braking of an entire train. Actually there are some similarities but its a moot point. You say "the jury is still out" and I say the jury is Motor Trend,Car & Driver, Consummer's Report, and a list of dozens that praise the achievments of Toyota. I personally have been aware of almost 200 '04 Prius owners and the vast majority overwhelmingly give the Prius a near 10 rating. As I recall you own an Excursion and I guess we're on opposite polarities. If this is true then we will probably agree to disagree. Lets see where things stand in, say 2 yrs. I already have 15K on my Prius. By then I'll have near 50K and we'll see how things stack up then. I'll be curious to compare fuel costs of yours vs mine. I think you know where this is going. Lastly, If fossil fuels do become limited guess who's vehicle will be sitting with a 4-SALE sign and no buyers?

Culliganman(mini-locomotive)

misterme

Let's see, the only reason the typical diesel isn't lasting 500 to a million miles is because people sell them before they're wore out, or because they just aren't stylish anymore.

Rrr-rignt.

 

Let's compare a diesel life to a gas car. Since there isn't many hybrids yet, Honda, a hybrid car MFG should suffice.

 

How 'bout Auto Trader?

Here's a link to all VW's from 1981 to present, the search was for highest mileage:

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/searchresults.jsp?sort_type=mileage- - - - - - - DESC&make=VOLKS&distance=0&lang=en&max_price=&amp- ;amp- ;amp- ;amp- ;model=&end_year=2006&min_price=&certified=&addre- - - - ss=30096&search_type=both&advanced=&start_year=1981&a- mp;a- mp;a- mp;a- mp;isp=y

 

Funny, the highest mileage is a bus @ 240,miles. Must be a fluke as the next ones are:

173K

168K (I sold my 'ol Dodge Spirit @ 163K)

137K

Then by page two it's under 100K miles.

 

Let's check Honda's, still using a mileage search:

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/searchresults.jsp?sort_type=mileage- DESC&make=HONDA&distance=0&lang=en&max_price=&amp- ;amp- ;amp- ;amp- ;model=&sponsorModel=&end_year=2006&min_price=&ce- - - - rtified=&address=30096&search_type=both&advanced=&amp- ;amp- ;amp- ;amp- ;start_year=1981&isp=y

 

Highest mileage car is 576K miles, but is this a fluke? I don't think so. You don't reach any under 100K until page 11.

 

VW has 1 page of autos for sale that have over 100K miles, and Honda has 11. eleven!

VW has a van that has 240K miles, Honda has a van that has 576K.

 

Should I boast that hybrid cars last +300K miles because a couple of Prius's made it that far as taxi cabs? No, I'm not going to claim that.

 

Do you really want to compare a fan motor to a hybrid car propultion motor?

railroadjames

If you examine today's cruise ships you'll notice that they have radically opted for the new fuel saving diesel powered azipod system. EXAMPLE...Royal Carribean Cruise Co. has the new "EAGLE CLASS". These babies are huge (until the new QM2 came along the 6 of them were the world's biggest ships afloat @ 1,020 ft and 142,000 ton)(@ a cost of over a Billion per). They had 4 diesel engines supplying power to 3 azipod (free-standing) electric motors that drove these ships thru the oceans. What made them even more unique was that 2 of the azipods could turn 360 degrees thus eleminating the rudder altogether. Now several cruise co.'s have gone over to this new approach to sea-going power and it has become the standard for many of the new boats. It is more complex but deffinitly cost efficient. I'm sure, as we all are, that technology is fast advancing and in about 20 yrs we will be discussing an altogether different mode of power. As to ICE engines verses Diesel, I, for one, feel that maybe a Prius could be powered by a diesel/electric sys. down the road. It could happen. I've seen stranger things:(rotory powered motorcycles, 3 cylinder 2-stroke cycles that brought about the 1st CDI Ignition, cars that run on old veg. oil and finally corn processed into fuel). Man can adapt quite well when need be. For now I'll just trust Toyota and maybe it'll be Ford or G.M. tomarrow.

Culliganman (tomarrow's car today)

gagrice

Highest mileage car is 576K miles, but is this a fluke? I don't think so.

 

I would bet it is a misprint. Honda does not sell "Honda certified" under warranty cars with 302k & 576k miles. The real issue is Longevity. Will these cars still be on the road at 15-20 years. And out of 78k used Honda's only 5 made it to 200k miles. Check out these 54 used MB 300Diesel automobiles. 14 are over 200k miles. One is actual 550k miles and still running after 20 years.

 

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/searchresults.jsp?sort_type=mileage- - - DESC&make=MB&distance=0&lang=&max_price=&mode- - l=300D&end_year=2006&min_price=&certified=&addres- - s=92071&search_type=both&advanced=&start_year=1981&am- p;am- p;isp=y

 

Where is the cab with 300k miles. I have read of one with 200K Kilometers that Toyota was so proud of they took it back to put in a museum. I find 1255 Prius for sale. Only one made it to 100k miles. Notice it is a 2001 and only worth $8995 if they are lucky. Hybrids will depreciate much faster than gas or diesel cars when the dreaded 100k miles is attained.

 

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/searchresults.jsp?sort_type=mileage- DESC&make=TOYOTA&distance=0&lang=&max_price=&- - model=PRIUS&sponsorModel=&end_year=2006&min_price=&am- p;am- p;certified=&address=92071&search_type=both&advanced=- - &start_year=1981&isp=y

 

PS

I have a Suburban bought in June 1998 with 48k miles so I imagine raliroadjames will spend a lot more for gas in your Prius than I do in the Suburban. My neighbor offers me $20k for it almost weekly. Try to get that kind of resale out of a hybrid when it is 7 years old.

larsb

quote gagrice-I can guarantee that one Suburban kept for 15 years pollutes less than 3 hybrids kept for 5 years and dumped."-end quote

 

That is a guarantee you might not want to bet on big fella:

 

tons GHG smissions one Suburban per year: 12.7

 

times 15 years = 190.5

 

tons GHG emissions one HCH per year: 4.0 tons

 

times 15 years = 60 tons

 

So unless the "manufacture process" of the Hybrids and the destruction of three batteries emits 130.5 tons of GHG, your guarantee is blown...

ruking1

..."You say "the jury is still out" and I say the jury is Motor Trend,Car & Driver, Consummer's Report, and a list of dozens that praise the achievments of Toyota. I personally have been aware of almost 200 '04 Prius owners and the vast majority overwhelmingly give the Prius a near 10 rating. As I recall you own an Excursion and I guess we're on opposite polarities. If this is true then we will probably agree to disagree. Lets see where things stand in, say 2 yrs. I already have 15K on my Prius. By then I'll have near 50K and we'll see how things stack up then. I'll be curious to compare fuel costs of yours vs mine. I think you know where this is going. Lastly, If fossil fuels do become limited guess who's vehicle will be sitting with a 4-SALE sign and no buyers?

Culliganman(mini-locomotive) "...

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Toyota Prius. I have also considered the Prius, Civic Hybrid. They are great "gee whiz" cars! However, for the majority of my intended use of the product(s) (daily driver, 50 miles R/T) the Toyota Corolla and or the Honda Civic 12-13k does the job much more economically. At the prices paid for the Toyota Prius (real world 29,000) I was able for app 1000 more get a Honda Civic and VW Jetta TDI.

larsb

I also did a search on cars.com and turned up this:

 

1461 total Civics with 90K-100K miles, including a 1991 with 1.6 MILLION miles on it and a 1994 with 527K miles

 

558 total Jettas with 90K-100K miles, including TDIs with 196K, 175K, 153K

 

So like we have shown before on this forum, diesels have not "cornered the market" for high mileage cars.

 

Diesel engines are engineered for longer miles, but there is more to keeping a car 200K miles than just the engine alone.

ruking1

"Diesel engines are engineered for longer miles, but there is more to keeping a car 200K miles than just the engine alone. "

 

Those are for certain. I am glad you can agree with the folks that use diesels. However as I said on a prior post, those items "...than just the engine alone..." to use your words, are not diesel/hybrid related items and/or can be considered wear items. So whether you have a hybrid or diesel new and/or used; it is far cheaper to replace those wear items, that it is to buy a car "new every two", or in your example, get a new one every 4-6 years!!

 

Also you might be a tad dismayed to find out that products on a "NEW" warranty car are not as good as when you get them aftermarket. Easy examples are batteries (non hybrid), tires, brakes pads, rotors shocks and struts.

 

I had a AC Delco battery just recently give up the ghost (RIP) at the 68,000 mile mark and app 4.25 years. Aftermarket this SAME battery has a 7 year warranty, but under "NEW" car warranty is 3 years 36,000 miles. So while I was a bit surprised (for I am used to Panasonic batteries giving up the ghost at app 10 years (app 170,000 miles), on 5 vehicles, so this has been a long time observeable trend .(19 years) I looked around and got a 3 year FREE replacement battery with a 100 month prorate,(8.33 years) for about 1/2 the price of a oem replacement. So truly the cost to the consumer for these replacement parts is FAR cheaper than getting a new car warranty (in this case,for 1/2 the time at over 2x the COST).

 

Tires can be another high dollar example. You almost truly have to read the fine print on each provided set of oem tires to see if you even have a warranty! But on a Civic or a Jetta TDI, you can get up to 80,000 mile warranties on tires, which are not only better performing products but are even CHEAPER than the oem models and brands.

 

The examples go on and on.

ruking1

While I understand the nexus of which you speak in the "industrial" Power Plant arena, I am not real sure how you made the diesel/hybrid to the wonderfulness of the gasser/hybrid in the Toyota Prius connection. If you are referring to (the credibility of) your opinions then I can understand, but am having a hard time really seeing the nexus here, based on what you wrote.

larsb

quote ruking1-"So whether you have a hybrid or diesel new and/or used; it is far cheaper to replace those wear items, that it is to buy a car "new every two", or in your example, get a new one every 4-6 years!!"-end quote

 

Well, the cost of repairs on an out-of-warranty car are only CHEAPER if:

 

a) you have a large savings account

b) you have a sugar mama or sugar daddy who will pay for your repairs

c) you put your "car payment money" into a "car repair money" account each month

 

For most people, having a surprise $800 repair bill is not a pleasant thing. Personally, I'd rather pay $1200 for an extended warranty and get it incoporated into my normal monthly payment and NEVER have to use it than try to come up with $800 on the "spur of the moment" for a surprise repair. I have used extended warranties many times for "non lethal" repairs.

 

I have been EXTREMELY LUCKY in that my cars have never left me stranded on the side of the road, but PART OF THAT is clever planning on my part.

 

Even the car I drove for 323,000 miles, when I blew a hole in the radiator I was able to get water from a pond along the highway (after I threw rocks at the sheep and the sheepdogs who were "guarding" the pond) and was able to limp home.

ruking1

I think you might be watching or playing too many three card Monte games!

 

Or are truly trying to minimize the cost (in your mind) of running cars!

 

The essential equation is obviously the monthly time payments. So when you stop your monthly payments as in 300,400,500 per month, you should be saving/setting that aside (or a good portion). No repairs!? Then good for YOU!

 

So in the case of a 800 dollar repair that can mean a 2.3-1.6 mo car payment. So as costly as a 800 dollar repair is, it is generally far cheaper than a new car and certainly cheaper than say a 300,400,500, dollar payment for a new car for 36-60 months?

larsb

OK, that's a good way to help me make my point:

 

WHY drive a five year old car that might strand you ANY MOMENT and might strain your budget ANY MOMENT when you can drive a "new" car, no worries, covered by warranty, newer safety features, probably lower emissions?

ruking1

Well that would assume that new cars NEVER break down!? This is truly NOT the case!

 

Three weeks ago my friend and her husband set out to come see us in their new Porsche Carerra convertible. (yes, I was up for a pony ride) They called about halfway down saying they were stuck because of fuel delivery problems. So of course, the vehicle was flat bedded to the Porsche dealership. It was on a Sunday, so of course the repair portion was closed. Come to find out that for whatever reason, a fuel delivery hose was not clamped down correctly came loose during operation and was shooting raw fuel on the engine! (GEEZZZ) So of course they were EXTREMELY lucky the car didn't catch fire, let alone them getting fried.

03accordman

"I can tell you where they are at. In the junk yards. Oh and there were NO Camrys with over 125k miles for sale"

 

Since they were not for sale, they are not out there, right? Wow, you should get an A for logic. You mean to say that Hondas and toyotas don't regularly do more than 200k miles? Could it be that the high mileage Honda/Toyota owbers decided to keep driving the cars, instead of selling them, since they are running well? And the Merc owners want to get rid of their high maintenance cars?

 

My friend you are so far from reality and you don't even realize it.

 

Could it be that the high mileage Honda/Toyota owbers decided to keep driving the cars, instead of selling them, since they are running well? And the Merc owners want to get rid of their high maintenance cars?

03accordman

Why ignore 11 pages of cars that have more than 100k miles on them? Coz they are Hondas?

03accordman

"If they were practical you would think that GM, that has way more experience with hybridization than any company on the planet would have adapted their experience to cars"

 

Only in your own mind does GM has more experience in Hybrid engines. Honda and Toyota are regarded as leaders in this technology worldwide, and that's why you see them getting cars out regularly with Hybrid powertrains. FYI, even GM has a mild Hybrid in one of their pickups, which shitches off the engine when its idling, thats all. So you are wrong when you say that if GM thought this technology was rewarding, they would also have introduced it. Well, Gagrice, they already have!

robertsmx

 

 

On the contrary, this is not true, Cetane plays its part! New 2006 standard low sulfur fuel will have 50 cetane and above. Current 49 state cetane is required to be at least 40 Cetane at the pump. In fact current CA Cetane is required to be 45 cetane. It is considered cleaner burning and manufactures less sludge.

 

Cetane is a measure of ignition quality of the oil. Sulfur content is NOT a part of cetane. Pretty much like association of octane with gasoline. How quickly the fuel ignites is determined by cetane for diesel. However, improper ignition could result in sludge issues/poorer emissions.

 

Yes you do consistently misrepresent what is said. That I think IS your baseline

 

Not sure why personal attack has to be a game. Why not just argue based on what is posted?