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Hybrid vs Diesel
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Comments
Count me out. I didn't believe in dumping my Accord 4.5 years/80K miles ago. I wouldn't dump my big screen TV after its warranty expires either.
Bottomline: Warranty doesn't define life of a product.
And so to your mind, this is the defining line between hybrid and diesel?!!
For my .02 cents, it is the comparative out of warranty PROJECTED HIGHER costs should the main hybrid stuff go south, vs diesel and conventional gassers such as Corolla, Civic, etc.
I think the discussion would be better served if you all quit manufacturing an adversarial condtion and or attitude, where there is none. They are plenty of things to discuss and debate without artificially turning it up a notch!
Well, that depends on WHAT PART of the 1970s you refer to:
From 1970-1975 it was mostly true.
But from 1976-1979, Toyota had some AWESOME cars:
The Toyota Corona, which was replaced by the Toyota Cressida, were both WONDERFUL cars. Steel body, crushed velour seats in the high end models, built as solidly as any american car of that era. You still see some of those cars on the road today as daily commuters. Then the Japanses companies learned from Detroit that you should NOT BUILD cars which last 20 years, because you hurt your sales levels.
And they were not diesels......
Glad that you are starting to acknowledge what was being said all along.
Also during the 70's a gasser motor was a cinderella/cinderfella at 75-100 k on the clock.
So to put this in operative terms, given the 231M registered passenger vehicle fleet and the auto salvage industry's statistics of 8-8.5 years average age of the fleet AND 8% junk rate per year; the goal would be to go north on the average age of fleet and south on the per year junk/salvage rate.
My concern for the hybrid is two fold: given 12-15 k average drivers mileage, and 8.5 years average age of the passenger vehicle fleet: puts it at 102-128k miles. Even the proponents indicate is the cinderella/cinderfella time frame and throughout its real and projected operational life, more costly than its gasser only and to a smaller extend; due to lower populations, its diesel counterparts. Not to mention a gasser such as Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla should easily do 250,000 miles with even MINIMAL care. It can be done at: 1. lower upfront costs 2. lower projected unscheduled maintenance costs3. lower per mile cost.
Well, that depends on the car - I got a Nissan gasser built in 1979 which had 323,000 miles on it when I retired it...
quote ruking1-"..."Then the Japanses companies learned from Detroit that you should NOT BUILD cars which last 20 years, because you hurt your sales levels: Glad that you are starting to acknowledge what was being said all along."-end quote
Uh-Uh, you are not catching me in a reversal !!
That was MUCH MORE true back in the 1970s, when a MUCH MUCH larger percentage of the populace could work on their own cars and cars were much more simple, leading to the fact that MANY more people wanted to and could keep their cars for 10 years or more.
That has CHANGED with the times - now, with almost all modern cars, you are in many cases FORCED to take the car in for service, thus making it a MUCH TOUGHER thing to "keep the car for many years."
"Back in the Day" it made a TON of sense to keep cars forever. But today's world is not that world.
You know I don't really know if we truly disagree or if you truly are trying to put the cart before the horse.
Business is measured in many yardsticks and areas but make no mistake: dollars and cents is a common metric. This issue might be doubly so, in that most consumers spend AFTER TAX dollars vs pretax dollars for say their 20,000 dollar Honda Civic Hybrid. So what this means in English (dollars and cents) is to pay 20,000 dollars, most folks make (as an example) 40,000 dollars to pay the 20k!!! This is not allowing for the massive depreciation thta follows most if not all new car purchases!! Or even the interest paid on the majority of new cars loans, because most consumers do not or can not pay cash.
So while on the one hand, there are forces that push in favor of higher costs and in this thread higher costs per miles; a consumer would be remiss if they didn't go in the lower costs and lower cost per mile direction. So if I had a bias, bias for action, goal, etc, indeed it would be that.
That is sad but true. I just don't care for this throw away society we are creating. I'm still happy with my 19 inch Panasonic TV that I bought in 1989.
larsb, "The future of Hybrid Vehicles" #521, 14 Feb 2005 1:10 pm
Wow, that's amazing. My 'ol Dodge sold at about 160K miles. I beat on it as hard as possible and was in 2 major wrecks, and it's not even a Honda!
"Hybrids will depreciate much faster than gas or diesel cars when the dreaded 100k miles is attained."
You mentioned one model by Toyota. I'm posting links to multiple examples.
"(Suburban) Try to get that kind of resale out of a hybrid when it is 7 years old."
My opinion: You might consider your neigbor- in 7 years gas is likely to be alot more expensive and you may wish you had sold it now.
Mabe a nice TDI or hybrid?
I'm kind of holding out for a Ranger size PU with a diesel engine to replace the Suburban. Probably be too old to drive by the time they are available in America. I guess I could retire to Mexico and buy one...
Avoid reading minds. Just speak out what you read. The argument seen getting thrown around here is that warranty IS determinant of life of the vehicle. Some prophesizing replacement when it expires.
For my .02 cents, it is the comparative out of warranty PROJECTED HIGHER costs should the main hybrid stuff go south, vs diesel and conventional gassers such as Corolla, Civic, etc.
If higher cost over time is an issue, nobody could beat the base trims. One would be foolish to buy an Accord EXV6 and expect it to have the ownership cost lower than owning Accord DX. No matter what, I see $20K cars (today) being sold for $2K a decade down the road.
As for your claim on “out of warranty” projected higher costs, what is your source of information?
..."Some prophesizing replacement when it expires."...
What is at issue here (hasn't changed) is the projected higher cost for critical, not so critical and wear item replacement parts. But more importantly ON it will be on my nickel (if I buy a hybrid and ignore the cinderella/cinderfella time and mileage frames).
Or if I be so direct or state the BEST POSSIBLE CASE, I wouldn't lose much sleep over someone elses hybrid having to pay big bucks at a low time and mileage if I the hybrid I owned was able to get 500,000 miles with no unscheduled maintenance.
Pearls of wisdom are flashing through! Keep up the good work.
So again I passed on a 29,000 dollar Toyota Prius, paid 1k more and was able to get a VW Jetta TDI and Honda Cvic. Surely is it a stretch for you to agree I have a better chance of getting 250,000 (x2 or 500,000 miles) miles each with a VW Jetta and Honda Civic, than I would with a Toyota Prius?!
Eamples: VW Jetta tires oem for my car cost app 81 dollars per tire with a 360 UTOQ. They, according to many web sites get lousy wear and the most you might want to see is 30-36k from them. Performance is rated POS to mediocre at the BEST. I have over that mileage and measurement of consumption leads me to project up to 120,000-160,000 miles. Truthfully I'd be thrilled with 85-95,000 miles. So I can step out right now and get an almost double UTOQ (700-720) an 80,000 mile warranty tire that performs outstandingly and CHEAPER to boot!!
I was shocked to see Toyoto Prius with a tire with a 180 UTOQ. If you go by the indicators a 180 will get less than half the wear of a 360 UTOQ. A further complication is they say it is only applicable in A manufacturers line. But the law does state the indictors are there so you CAN project across UTOQ ratings and NOT just one manufacturers line!! So perhaps a Prius owner can enlighten US/me as to price each tire and what size.
So I hope you can see that if I get a new Jetta and/or new hybrid, I will get the same lousy oem but BRAND NEW tires, PAID brand new prices and have passed up an outstanding set of CHEAPER tires for another 80,000 miles and more!!!
the projected higher cost for critical replacement parts.
Give me the “high” projected cost from ownership of a car like Honda Insight from whatever source you’re using, for whatever period you’re considering. We will go from there.
Or if I be so direct or state the BEST POSSIBLE CASE, I wouldn't lose much sleep over someone elses hybrid having to pay big bucks at a low time and mileage if I the hybrid I owned was able to get 500,000 miles with no unscheduled maintenance.
I’m not so sure about it, after all you’re trying to justify your choice over others. If you and I didn’t, we wouldn’t be exchanging arguments here now, would we? Having said that, I quickly checked Consumer Reports on “Engine Reliability” of 2000 Insight and 2000 Jetta TDI. Guess which is rated “Excellent” and which has an “Average” rating. And could you also guess, why? 2000 is as far back as I could go on the website for both cars but it is a data up for debate.
VW Jetta tires oem for my car cost app 81 dollars per tire
What is the issue here?
Hybrid cars are being built onto traditional frames:
Civic
HAH
Escape
Mercury Mariner (October '05)
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6939701/
Hyundi Portico performance hybrid out soon
http://www.mixedpower.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&- amp;- amp;- amp;- amp;- amp;sid=351
Lexus RX 400h
http://www.just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=47025
etc etc.
Tire problems are not hybrid specific.
Cost of hybrid replacement parts 5-10 years from now is only speculation.
Wonder how much an alternator or starter costs on a diesel car?
Our hybrids don't have one to replace. Our AT's are considerably simpler with drastically less parts and doesn't even have a torque converter found on an AT diesel.
What major parts does the hybrid have that the diesel doesn't?
1 or 2 motors, a battery and controller.
Truthfully, you need to look at dealer prices and or aftermarket. For both the Toyota Prius and Civic Hybrid . I get the feeling if I said it you would consider it instantly suspect. All I can say is doing the spread sheet comparision that was enough to make me get the VW Jetta TDI.
..."Tire problems are not hybrid specific.
Cost of hybrid replacement parts 5-10 years from now is only speculation. "...
I have said as much! You need to keep the decoder ring on longer!
If the cost of "any" replacement parts 5-10 years from now is speculation, then you can draw no conclusions about anything now can you?
So is that the real goal?
Actually for the oem manufacturer's that would be an absolutely fantasy world!! So if you wish to persist in that fantasy thinking, you need to have this discussion with folks of that like mind.
As for me, the VW Jetta TDI and Honda Civic will need timing belt and water pump changes at the 100-120k mile mark.
etc etc. Do the math and add it up! The big unknown is the unscheduled maintenance and that is why you like to look for reliability rates so you can stare with confidence into the fog!
An engine that is deemed less reliable will require more attention than another that doesn't and in this case, even if the cost to replace the engine may be higher for the latter, it is the former that is making you spend. How is that for projecting expenses?
If the cost of "any" replacement parts 5-10 years from now is speculation, then you can draw no conclusions about anything now can you?
Not the way you approach it. (see above). If you want to consider replacement parts like tires, the understanding of how are they tied to engine technology is beyond me. OEM tires in my 1998 Accord were Michelin MXV4 Energy Plus, rather expensive tires to replace ($127/piece). They lasted 52K before I replaced them with Michelin X-One at $80/piece.
At 115K miles, rear brake pads in my Accord are still original. Even if they cost more to replace than those on another car that cost less but I end up replacing 2-3 times to get to 115K, guess where the ownership cost is getting hit! Truth isn’t in forcing replacements parts into car, truth is in how long they last besides how much they cost.
Intellichoice does its study based on several sources of data, some derived from EPA, some from ALG some from insurance companies, and some from other sources. That’s not “doing the math” based on whim but some form of evidence. That’s how you can “project” costs.
I don't see the typical 500-1 million mile diesels anywhere on the roads, but do notice when I'm riding behind a 7-10 year old one.
The driver of those cars are likely riding in diesel car bliss, but only because they are upwind.
Likely very much unaware what the people behind are experiencing.
Good reputable MFG's like Honda produce long-lasting engines, it's a documented fact.
For example, see my last post with the AutoTrader links.
1-1/2 page of diesels with over 100K to Honda's 11 pages.
Which is more reliable?
Also,
The Hybrid drivers tend to be more gentle on the car, which followed logically, can result in a longer lasting vehicle.
Sorry, I don't have any links to prove that but is pretty much common sense.
Are you guys used to asking brain surgeons how much to do bricklaying and ask the brick layers how much for brain surgery or what? What is so hard to understand?
So what? Your same tire is one of three common oem tires for the VW Jetta TDI, different size of course. They are considered the best of the three, but most folks report 34k max.
Come on guys - off topic. If you aren't going to talk about hybrid v. diesel and want to discussion tires, etc. find the appropriate discussion to do so. Otherwise we're gonna shut this discussion down.
You act like that is the fault of the person driving the car. It absolutely the fault of the EPA. If you can remember when we had cars spewing fumes from leaded gas and the government jumped in and outlawed leaded gas. There were diesel trucks, cars and tractors spewing black smoke back then. The EPA did nothing. CA has done something because I do not see any black soot coming out of the hundreds of diesel PU trucks on the roads. The EPA took on the responsibility to clean the air and water. They have let diesel go with little control. That is not the fault of the diesel car owner.
I still contend that 2 hybrids driven 100k miles each and dumped are more polluting than 1 VW TDI driven 200k miles. No one has shown proof that a hybrid on the average is good for 200k miles.
Yes, it is. This applies also to a gasoline car who's CAT is burned & plugged up, and stinks like sulfer, or one that is blowing oily smoke. However, a rotten egg smell & a stinging, choking gas from a diesel is very much different.
"I still contend that 2 hybrids driven 100k miles each and dumped are more polluting than 1 VW TDI driven 200k miles."
Speculation.
"No one has shown proof that a hybrid on the average is good for 200k miles"
It haven't been disproved either, for lack of data.
But as shown the quality and track record of at least Honda, a hybrid manufacturer shows great promise in the longevity of their vehicles.
Toyota's system I am less optimistic, simply because it relies so heavily on the hybrid system itself to move down the road.
Culliganman(Somewhere In Time)
I'm only 44 years old and admitted gadget freak, and respect both old & new technology. One thing I enjoy doing is refurbishing 1920's - 1950's wood radios.
My dad of 67 worked most of his life as an aircraft maintenance engineer. He owned an Isuzu diesel back in the 70's and got rid of it.
As soon as he heard I bought my HCH he had to take it for a spin. completely impressed he's always talking about it to his friends...And my average 59-60MPG
Culliganman(A new age on the horizon)
We are in agreement. I think the HCH and Insight are simpler and less likely to have expensive failures than the Prius and next generation HSD hybrids.
That was the down fall of the railroads. I like the steam engines, especially the Shays. Nothing compares to a Steam locomotive. Ah the good old days..
Unfortunately they may be strictly museum pieces, as the # of qualified people who maintain and run these are dwindling. I recall reading of one that blew up in Tennessee, severely injuring the fireman & engineer because they were 100% relying on the water sight glass alone, which wasn't blown & cleaned out for quite some time. The sheet was exposed and BOOM. I used to live next to a RR museum and they had a huge 2-8-4 they were working on. They were looking for someone to rework the boiler. 7 years later they are still waiting for a qualified volunteer
Advancing from steam to diesel....Hmmm...isn't it more like advancing from steam to HYBRID diesel?
Just having a flashback of nostalgia. I'm sure that hybrids will in some form come out on top of the motive force for future automobiles. I just want us to use whatever resources we have in the most efficient way possible. Diesel has been the better fuel since the invention of the ICE. I think that we were pushed into using gasoline by oil company interests not by good science. If the money spent to bring the gas engine to where it is today was spent on diesel, we would not be having this discussion. Honda has proven that a company that took a wrong turn a long time ago is capable of seeing their err, with a 180 degree turn around they build the innovative i-CDTI.
Based on what? Is this based on your assumption, or do you have data that you’re relying upon?
No one has shown proof that a hybrid on the average is good for 200k miles.
I assume you meant hybrid power plant. If that is the case, you can only use data that is available, correct? I posted reliability report on two engines from Consumer reports for 2000 model year. Five years should be a reasonable time frame for it, if not what you might need to get to 200K miles, right? Now, the ratings:
VW Jetta TDI: Average
Honda Insight: Excellent
I guess hybrid held up better than diesel in this case over five years. Refute this.
As for 200K miles or more on a hybrid, railroadjames may have to say something about it. After all, diesel locomotives are essentially hybrids! There must be a few with enough miles under the wheels. ;-)
Honda has proven that a company that took a wrong turn a long time ago is capable of seeing their err, with a 180 degree turn around they build the innovative i-CDTI
AFAIK, Honda expanded its offering, and they continue to. I-CTDi was added last year for European market, but over last five years, Honda has added three hybrid power trains and a fuel cell vehicle, in production. I’m not sure about your comment involving 180 degree turn here.
What "wrong turn" are you referring to, Gary? I don't see any wrong turns by Honda.
They built the i-CTdi for the "EURO MARKET" and it had nothing to do with anything else. They also have a brand new diesel engine for the Civic this year 2006 for the Euro market.
It seems I have read that Honda corporate "Hated" diesel. Now they have built one of the best diesel engines on the planet. If they had put the energy into diesel way back, instead of gas engines they could be the biggest automaker instead of 4th or 5th. Diesel will end up on top because of your pet rant "GHG". It is a direct result of burning fossil fuel. The less you use the less CO2. Diesels use less fuel for the power you get out of the engine. When the EPA does what they should have done 20 years ago forcing the cleanup of diesel. Honda will bring the i-CDTI to the USA, if they want to stay competitive.
And no, Honda couldn’t have been larger by simply making diesel engines. Guess who manufactured the first diesel engine offered in Honda (2003 Euro Civic) Isuzu: a struggling company.
As for GHG rant, diesels don’t do as well in EPA pollution measurements (a reason Honda isn’t bringing its diesel any time soon, since they hate it, or so they quote in their PR, right?). And being hybrid versus diesel thread, let me know when comparable diesels can beat hybrids even in GHG area. As of now, they don’t! (heck, even Accord gasoline engine beats Passat diesel in that area, forget about hybrid).
"Industry News: Honda to focus on diesel in near future 05 Jun 03 00:00
Honda has this week unveiled its all-new 2.2-litre diesel engine, which will be fitted first in the Accord, and then in the CR-V range. The first models equipped with this will go on show at the Frankfurt Motor Show this September, and European sales will follow soon after.
The new engine, a four-cylinder, 16-valve all-aluminium unit with common-rail fuel injection, will develop "more than 340Nm" (251lb ft) of torque (pulling force), and 140bhp, and "will provide the best driving comfort in its class, ideal for the long-distance, high-mileage drivers", says the company. It will also have emissions levels "well below" the Euro IV requirements. Honda plans to make 24,000 of these engines a year at its facility in Takanazawa, Japan.
Honda is focusing on this diesel engine in its attempts to capture more of the mainstream car market. "The diesel will take a large volume of our sales, especially in Europe", Stephen Hollings, director of Honda Product Affairs, told 4car yesterday. "We need to get a lot of volume out of that". As such, this means that there are no immediate projects to develop more models with the IMA (Integrated Motor Assist) petrol-electric hybrid technology. "Accord IMA is not even on the plans for Europe," said Hollings. However, Honda is happy at the ongoing acclaim for its 1.0-litre (Insight) and 1.3-litre (Civic) IMA units, both of which won their respective categories at the International Engine of the Year awards (see link below), and is confident that sales of hybrids will continue to grow in the short term. "IMA technology is just about to take off in Europe," Hollings said. "In Japan and America, it's accepted technology. It's a solution that works for Honda... the mainstream brands don't have one (a hybrid). This gives us a unique proposition versus conventional engines. What IMA gives us is a completely different product offer that side-steps the opposition."
The lack of a plan to make an Accord IMA doesn't necessarily mean that all hybrid projects are on hold for the moment, though. "Remember that Dualnote is a fully working model", said Hollings, referring to the NSX-style hybrid concept Honda unveiled last year. "It is an indication of a hybrid car in a quite expensive market." With the diesel-unfriendly USA in mind, a high-performance hybrid might just make sense. In the meantime, Honda has high hopes for the 2.2 diesel engine, and Hollings has "absolutely no doubts" that this will be in the running for next year's Engine of the Year title.
From:
http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?news_id=5659
"The film tells the story behind the creation of Honda’s first diesel in a unique way. Kenichi Nagahiro, the company’s chief engine designer and inventor of the celebrated VTEC engine, hated diesel engines, hated how noisy, smelly and dirty they were. When asked to design Honda’s first diesel he flatly refused - unless he was allowed to start completely from scratch. The result is one of the cleanest, most refined diesel engines on the market today, the 2.2 i-CTDi."
http://www.carpages.co.uk/honda/honda_asks_can_hate_be_good_02_10- - _04.asp?switched=on&echo=154321839
If they persist in gasser offerings alone, they dial themselves out of 40-50%(diesel) of the passenger fleet market. If they do that they will slowly "die on the vine."
So from a strategic point of view suicide is not in the cards for Honda.
Isn't this what I have been saying all along? Gas/electric hybrid is not going to be mainstream. Possibly diesel/electric or diesel/hydraulic. The EPA is going into joint venture to build diesel/hydraulic vehicles. I don't think the sales of hybrids for Honda has been what they had hoped for. No long lines like for the Prius. Honda has not thrown all their eggs in the hybrid basket. I applaud them for building the i-CDTI. I wish they would sell it in the 45 states that don't have their head where the sun don't shine. I would live with the cramped cabin in the Accord if it was powered with the i-CDTI.
Goes unsaid by whom? No one on this board avoids saying that.
Diesels are more popular in Europe because the fuel is cheaper. No other reason. Not because they are cleaner for sure.
But if you have an Accord gasser that gets 32 MPG and a diesel that gets 42 MPG and diesel is 20 cents cheaper per gallon than gasoline, the buyer is making the best economic decision. Not the best ENVIRONMENTAL decision, but the best choice for the driver's budget.
PERFECT example of taking something out of context. :)The speaker was talking about the EURO market, where diesels dominate. Later in the paragraph, they said this:
"IMA technology is just about to take off in Europe," Hollings said. "In Japan and America, it's accepted technology. It's a solution that works for Honda... the mainstream brands don't have one (a hybrid). This gives us a unique proposition versus conventional engines. What IMA gives us is a completely different product offer that side-steps the opposition."
Gas/electric indeed might not become mainstream in Europe (as diesels have) but they will CERTAINLY become a valid option for millions of buyers in the USA over the next few years. There is no arguing that point.
So you did say they were gas guzzlers? So if you or other anti diesel advocates said it, where did you avoid having to avoid saying it?
"But if you have an Accord gasser that gets 32 MPG and a diesel that gets 42 MPG and diesel is 20 cents cheaper per gallon than gasoline, the buyer is making the best economic decision. Not the best ENVIRONMENTAL decision, but the best choice for the driver's budget."
While it is your opinion, it is strictly erroneous.
I also think it might be instructive to take a look at the 12% SUV market for an idea of how long it might take to get a % of hybrids in the vehicle fleet of 231M vehicles. Anti suv advocates have pointed to the almost "relentlessness" of the growth of SUV's. Among other attributes they point to the lack of utilization of the utility of SUV's. Yet it has taken a full generation and then some (30 plus years) to get to 12% of the population.
If you did, you would be wrong. The comment above is derived "for European market". Take note of that.
Gas/electric hybrid is not going to be mainstream
It already is mainstream. Last I read, two of best selling cars in America (Civic and Accord), and one of the best selling compact SUV (Escape) were being offered with hybrid options. Prius may not have been mainstream per se, but its sales volume will put shame to a lot of "mainstream" cars.
If you count Jazz out. And Civic Hybrid isn't a gasser, or is it?
Let us use "relativity" a bit more carefully next time around.
You are right. Europeans with there stifling fuel tax, know an economical car when they see one. Honda had a very small market share with their gas vehicles. They just did not compare to other cars in Europe for mileage. They probably saw the high prices paid in Europe for diesel cars and wanted a piece of the action. One poster from Spain bought a Passat TDI for $35,000 and thought it was a bargain. No wonder VW concentrates on Europe and sends America the gas burning dregs. I'm sure their philosophy is if America wants gas guzzlers instead of efficient clean diesel, give it to them.
Well, in the context of the Euro diesel Accord which gets 42 MPG versus the Euro gasolione Accord which only gets 32 MPG, it is obvious to us all which one is the "guzzler."
Well perhaps you are an anti American proponent. Let's see, an Accord American, gets 32 and the VW Jetta TDI gets 49 mpg. Hmmm... I guess because it is in America it is totally not obvious which is the GASS GUZZLER?