Hybrid vs Diesel

ruking1

I think some if not all of the Honda Hybrid folks (seems to be a lack of Toyota hybrid folks here) are in absolute total denial that Honda makes a diesel Civic and new diesel in the Accord (Honda). Almost like they don't want to talk about the...B (red headed stepchild)

robertsmx

The bottomline test appeared in C&D Comparison Test ("The Fuel Misers") from a few months ago. Why didn't the Jetta TDI fare well against the hybrids in that apples to apples comparison?

 

I think some if not all of the Honda Hybrid folks (seems to be a lack of Toyota hybrid folks here) are in absolute total denial that Honda makes a diesel Civic and new diesel in the Accord (Honda).

 

I have not seen anybody making those claims. Care to pin-point some? That might help that particular person(s) respond to the issues that you're taking here. I certainly would like to, if you meant it is me!

ruking1

VW if I remember correctly provides not 2 years on drive train but 5/60k. So it would be fair to include the car you are comparing it against.

 

But then you have to ask which is more rust resistant, galvanized steel or recycled steel. Obviously if the "paint" is breached both will start the oxidation process!?

ruking1

..."So please, for us folks who do not have access to or benefit of the decoder ring: what are you really saying? Do you really mean what you really said? etc. etc. "...

 

So did you lose the decoder ring? It's the ONLY ONE!

ruking1

If you can not or dont want to read between the lines, I am totally ok with it.

 

Or which hybrid advocate has said gee I have a Civic HCH hybrid but hope they bring the Civic diesel here!? Why? So we will have the full complement of Civics: 1. gasser 2.diesel 3. hybrid? You are hearing this writer who has both a VW TDI and Civic gasser saying it: i.e. BRING IT ON !!

kernick

you: If the man has a mountain drive, and he usually races through it in 30 minutes, WHAT IS WRONG with leaving 15 minutes earlier and taking 45 minutes for the same trip, and saving on fuel?

 

me: In any sort of suburban or urban area, the longer vehicles are on the road the worse the congestion will be. Congestion and the poor mpg resulting from that are affected by the speed and length of time of a trip. So in some cases driving faster can actually save fuel.

Sylvia

Sorry guys - this is NOT the mountaineering club.

 

Stay on the topic of hybrids v. diesels...that means emissions, price, reliability, power.

gotenks243

" "having extra torque" and "using extra torque" are two different things.

  

If you floor your car to the point that the torque is engaged, you will SUFFER in the MPG column. "

 

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of torque. Power, torque times RPM divided by 5252, is what is 'engaged' by revving higher. Torque can very well be there down low, as it is in almost all turbodiesels, due to the low redline of a diesel engine.

 

"Not downshifting" to maintain speed up a hill does not constitute 'racing' up a hill. If a TDI can 'loaf' at 2000rpm in fifth gear on a steep hill and still maintain speed through the torque it still has at 2000rpm and part throttle, the TDI will probably be using less fuel than the HCH that needed a downshift to 4th, raising revs to 3000-4000 RPM, and draining the battery to maintain the same speed.

 

 
Down-low torque and gearing are what allow cars like the Corvette to get 30mpg on the highway, while my smaller-engined Subaru can't. 3.0l BMWs use less fuel as per the EPA than 2.5l ones, partially due to their torque being such that the engine doesn't have to rev as high to get up to and maintain the same speeds. This same principle can readily apply to low (gasoline engine) torque, low-displacement hybrids versus diesels.

 

Mike

benderofbows

I drove the crap out of a Powerstroke and it really impressed me. I mean, those things FLY. 0-60 in well under 8 seconds, wow. That's great for something that big. Felt effortless, too- no big revs, just pure muscle. It blew the gas models out of the water, and gets better mileage too.

 

If hybrids want to truly break into the mainstream, they should offer improved performance in addition to fuel economy. I don't know how many reviews I have read which state "the electric motor works like a supercharger under acceleration" only to show the hybrid is no faster or in most cases slower than the gas model. I for one would like knowing that, for all the extra money up front, I would be going faster when I needed to as well as saving gas money when I wanted to.

robertsmx

VW if I remember correctly provides not 2 years on drive train but 5/60k

 

Now it does, not when I was looking around. Power train was just 2 years (in 1998). But, if you continue to insist that warranty coverage is indicator of reliability, you couldn't be further from truth.

rfruth

 hmmm, Powerstroke or HAH ? decisions decisions

benderofbows

A fellow cyclist! How are the roads and trails in Texas?  



That's the thing with the HAH; because of the added weight, magazine tests have showed it to be no faster than the regular V6. So no advantages besides maybe emissions, and the option to pay extra up front so gas expenses will be lower later.

li_sailor

Snort. Decoder ring. Some things never change

li_sailor

If hybrids want to truly break into the mainstream, they should offer improved performance in addition to fuel economy.

 

They do, and compared to diesels, they do in city driving, which many folks mostly do. This has been pointed out. We should keep religion out of this ;-)

minicoopercat

I just purchased my first diesel, a BMW 535d and I absolutely love it. It has awesome performance, sounds like no diesel I can remember and I get 32-35 mpg to boot. I'd consider a Hybrid if it could do the same or better.

benderofbows

I meant improved performance over the same gas model, not a comparable diesel. For instance I'd consider an HAH if it was able to significantly out-pace a standard V6 model when floored, and then when driven normally still post higher fuel econonmy. From what I have read, it accelerates about the same. That's what I think, given more development/improvement, hybrids should be capable of anyways.

 

If hybrid technology is ever going to become just another option on the window sticker, it needs to be aimed more at mainstream drivers, and having additional advantages would sure help.

li_sailor

I agree on the "should be capable" part. But...

 

Regardless of any potential performance improvement (or lack thereof) the point of the hybrid version is better mpg and emissions. I think the HAH is still too new and frankly, I don't believe the anecdotal evidence posted here so far...but the HCH get significantly better mpg than the Civic EX.

 

In fact, some folks in the HAH thread seem to report as good as or better than the EPA est.

rfruth

The roads (and trails) are fine here ((in Texas)), the HAH *does* have increased performance compared to the gas models and yes it posts better fuel mileage but for 30 + grand I'll take a Prius that will haul a couple bicycles and people around but want to see what Honda does with the Civic (hybrid) this fall.

robertsmx

May be the regular V6 being too fast already is the issue then. But, it won't get you the mileage.

Sylvia

Since no one can stay on topic, this discussion will be closed until Feb. 7.

 

Any new discussions created trying to continue this will be deleted.

 

Here's the deal - the discussion is to be about the title Hybrid v. Diesel. For a number of posts this isn't what you've been discussing.

dieselman1

I guess the host was asleep at the switch.

gagrice

"We deliver what we promise; just the reverse of hybrids, which don't give you what they promise," says Bharat Balasubramanian, vice president in charge of engineering technology and regulatory affairs for the Mercedes car operation. He's referring to gas-electric hybrid-power cars, which advertise 50- and 60-mpg fuel economy that many owners find hard to duplicate.

 

http://www.greendieseltechnology.com/news214.html

andyman73

Give me a hybrid diesel, thankyouverymuch!!! Something like the concept for the Mercury Meta One. OR that DMC Merc. wagon that has the V8TD hybrid.

 

Seems like the best of both worlds.

 

That Meta One concept is AWD, and rated at @ 435 torque!!! Can you say WEEEEEEeeee, lots o fun!

electrictroy

The "green score" posted at www.fueleconomy.gov is actually variable. It is dependent upon which emissions standard is applied, so I dug through the EPA website and found these results:

    

BIN 9 - non-CA region

=====================

Civic Hybrid = 6

Jetta/Beetle/Golf TDI = 6

    

BIN 10 - non-CA region

======================

Civic Hybrid = 4

Jetta/Beetle/Golf TDI = 4

    

The Civic Hybrid & TDIs are equally clean *if you apply the same standard*.

larsb

but what you fail to add is this:

 

"dirtiest HCH" = 5.1 tons GHG emissions.

 

"Cleanest" TDI = 5.8 tons GHG emissions.

 

So by pointing out a "general score" you are still not indicating that the TDI cars are cleaner, because they are not, right now.

electrictroy

CO2 is not "dirt". It's not classified as such by the EPA or CARB. It's classified as a "greenhouse gas" which is vastly different. Hell, I just spit out 1/2 a pound of CO2 sitting here, breathing. It's a naturally occuring gas.

 

So my statement "Civic Hybrid & TDI are equally CLEAN" stands, because only NOx, CO, HC, PM are considered "dirt" by the EPA & that's all that I'm looking at.

 

.

 

You CAN buy diesels in California. There's a loophole.

 

Buy a brand-new Passat/Jetta/Golf/or Beetle TDI. Get the temporary 90-day registration. Drive 7500 miles (about 80 miles a day...which is nothing). Register it. California law allows diesels to be registered at mile 7501.

 

And when sulfur-free diesel arrives in a few months, you'll be driving an ultra-low emission vehicle (ULEV) equivalent to a civic hybrid.

 

:-)

 

troy

robertsmx

You CAN buy diesels in California. There's a loophole.

 

Thats it! You HAVE to use the loophole. Thats not the same as normal availability.

larsb

OK, let's make sure everyone understands you:

 

Your assertion is that emitting 5.8 tons of "harmful green house gasses" is just as fine and well and dandy as emitting only 5.1 tons?

 

Look at the illogic there !!! Why does the EPA calculate tons of GHG emissions? To further rate the cleanliness of the cars and trucks, that's why. The EPA would not classify it as "GHG" if was not "bad." Heard of Global Warming, much?

electrictroy

"Your assertion is that emitting 5.8 tons of "harmful green house gasses" is just as fine and well and dandy as emitting only 5.1 tons?"

 

.

 

No I did NOT say that. That's a strawman argument.

 

My point was that CO2 is *not* dirt. It's not classified as dirt by the EPA or the CARB, therefore it is wrong to say a car is "dirtier" simply because it emits more CO2.

 

You can say, "The TDI emits more greenhouse gas" but it is incorrect to say, "The TDI is dirtier," because CO2 is not dirt.

troy

larsb

As long as GreenHouse gasses are bad for the environment, any car that produces MORE of those gasses is by definition "dirtier" than a car which emits fewer tons of those gases.

 

Anyone besides Troy and Gary disagree?

robertsmx

Forget EPA ratings. It is obvious that the ratings are being debated without proper understanding.

 

Any time hybrid system is active in a hybrid vehicle, unless the gasoline engine really sucks (and Civic's i-DSI unit doesn't), you're not going to find a cleaner (comparable) engine (if the fuel being pumped in allows that).

yerth10

5 years ago, there was no talk about Diesels, since there were very few hybrids at that time.

 

But now with hybrids giving high MPG, Diesels are coming in. Both Diesels & Hybrids gain.

 

5 years from now, there will be Diesel-Hybrids (orcourse Plug-in).

larsb

IF a company besides VW or MB can produce a truly "clean diesel" electric hybrid 4 DR sedan which achieves 60-70 miles per gallon AND is in the $25K-$30K price range, that will indeed be an Evolution.

kernick

Well I know a lot of people who tonight will create greenhouse gases with their heating systems because the average temp. of the Earth is too low. In fact when I fire up the woodstove tonight - I'm not only happy about warming my house, but content to know that I may be increasing global warming.

 

So release of GHG is not an issue, and that's a whole other topic that would lead to trees releasing CO2 and volcanos, and how much is due to man and how many times the Earth has already gone thru these cycles with no help from humans.

 

My vote is for maximizing fuel mileage, which is definitely diesel, and add a hybrid system if practical.

misterme

I'm still enjoying my 58MPG in my gasoline hybrid Civic this winter, and expect my 61 again next summer.

 

I don't remember seeing a diesel car blow soot or stink when their new, all the ones I've seen doing this have a couple of years on them. Luck for their drivers: They sit upwind.

 

When those older diesel cars were new, there were magazine artiles & enthusiasts claiming clean & efficient.

 

Is there any data that can be posted of the increase of soot a typical older diesel auto...one with 5-7 and 7-10 years of service in compared to when it was new?

 

How about comparing that with a typical gasoline auto emissions of the same class?

gagrice

Your assertion is that emitting 5.8 tons of "harmful green house gasses" is just as fine and well and dandy as emitting only 5.1 tons?

 

A person driving a VW TDI in CA can use B100 biodiesel and negate the 5.8 tons of GHG making it MUCH cleaner than any hybrid. It is readily available in most major CA cities along with BP ECD-1 ULSD. Just like the person that spends extra to buy a hybrid and help save the planet a person can buy a diesel and do the same. It is a matter of willingness to try and make a difference. There are lots of possible solutions, I like a simple diesel solution.

 

PS

The HAH blows 6.0 tons of GHG if driven conservatively.

gagrice

5 years ago, there was no talk about Diesels, since there were very few hybrids at that time.

 

Very true, we were in the decadent 1990s when everyone wanted a Hummer or Excursion to drive to the Mall. No one worried about mileage. That is why Toyota could not sell the Prius for $20k when it cost them $35k to build. MB and VW had all but abandoned selling Diesel in the USA. Now they sell diesels as fast as they get off the truck.

robertsmx

The HAH blows 6.0 tons of GHG if driven conservatively.

 

Oh, that is less than 6.8 tons from Passat Diesel or 7.0 tons from Accord I-4 or 7.8 tons from Accord V6. ;-)

yerth10

"A person driving a VW TDI in CA can use B100 biodiesel and negate the 5.8 tons of GHG "

gagrice : Its a good point.

 

VW-Golf Diesel offers a decent cargo space for its size and an excellent MPG and with Bio-Diesel, it can remove that 5.8 tons of GHG, for those who want a bit more space can go for Jeep-Liberty Diesel. Similarly there are Taurus, Sable with FFV and the people in mid-west can go for E85 and reduce GHG by almost equal proportions.

 

However, still there are millions who are buying gas-guzzlers and for them a Hybrid is an easy choice. So lets go with both Hybyrids and Diesels instead of Hybrids or Diesels

gagrice

Oh, that is less than 6.8 tons from Passat Diesel

 

Due to their inefficient nature, gasoline cars are inherently worse for expelling GHG than diesel. To get equal performance from a gas car vs a diesel car you will put out more GHG with the gas vehicle. Even with a small decrease from using electric boost you are putting out more GHG. For people that have access to biodiesel the GHG is reduced to Zero. That is the reason countries that have signed on to the Kyoto treaty are switching to diesel cars. If you are REALLY interested in GHG and the overall environment it would be best to buy a modern diesel and use B100 biodiesel. Any place that does not get below 20 degrees in the winter is great for B100. If it gets colder than that you can mix to any percentage that will suit your circumstance. Many VW TDI owner are reporting mileage in the high 40s even during the winter. You don't get that big mileage hit that seems to be characteristic of hybrids in cold climates.

larsb

Gary, all that info is fine, but the EPA numbers of GHG emissions can be relied on when comparing two different cars.

 

Of course someone using B100 would pollute less, anyone knows that, but the problem is B100 availablity, and the fact that it gels in the cold, etc. B100 is fine for CERTAIN circumstances only, not fine for most modern commuters.

mike91326

“However, still there are millions who are buying gas-guzzlers and for them a Hybrid is an easy choice. So lets go with both Hybrids and Diesels instead of Hybrids or Diesels.”

 

I cannot agree more. Hopefully in the next 2 – 4 years there will be a large selection of hybrids and clean diesels to choose from. Let the American public vote with their wallet. When it comes to the tanks we call SUV’s, they should all come with a diesel option. Last week my friend was at the Ford dealer looking at the Excursion (I don’t know why because they don’t have any kids). Well, the dealer was almost giving away the V8 and V10’s but there were no deals on the diesels. The few on the lot were going for over MSRP. Because he had purchased from this dealer before, they were willing to come down to MSRP.

larsb

“However, still there are millions who are buying gas-guzzlers and for them a Hybrid is an easy choice. So lets go with both Hybrids and Diesels instead of Hybrids or Diesels.”

 

I would prefer that we wait until "clean diesel" is entrenched into the USA distribution channels....why put "dirtier" diesels on the road now before a cleaner Hybrid?

gagrice

So lets go with both Hybyrids and Diesels instead of Hybrids or Diesels

 

I agree there is room for all these options. For myself I prefer the simplicity of an engine only vehicle. And I believe the diesel is a better choice than gas. Diesel has better efficiency and fuel flexibilty. I think the oil companies know that and have financed the lobby against diesel.

electrictroy

"As long as GreenHouse gasses are bad for the environment..."

 

.

 

The dinosaurs lived on a tropical Greenhouse earth. They seemed happy with it. 75 million years they lived in an environment with *three times* as much CO2 as now. And they were happy.

 

CO2 is not bad. It is not dirt. It's not classified as dirt by either EPA or CARB. It's a naturally occuring gas.

 

.

 

The only exhaust components that are classified as "dirt" are PM, NOx, HC, CO... because they are poisonous to life, even in small quantities. CO2 is not.

 

troy

gagrice

there were no deals on the diesels. The few on the lot were going for over MSRP. Because he had purchased from this dealer before, they were willing to come down to MSRP.

 

That is so true. My brother-in-law just bought a new Dodge Ram and wanted the Cummins diesel. It was $7000 more than the Hemi V8. He figured that he did not tow that much and went with the Hemi.

mike91326

"I would prefer that we wait until "clean diesel" is entrenched into the USA distribution channels....why put "dirtier" diesels on the road now before a cleaner Hybrid?"

 

I agree 100%, that's why I said 2 to 4 years. ULSD must be nationwide by June 2006. Let's start with the 2007 MY.

electrictroy

P.S.

 
Please note, I'm not saying we should not be concerned about CO2/greenhouse gas. But to say "Car A emits more CO2 and therefore A is dirtier" is not an accurate statement.

 

It's more accurate to say "Car A & B are equally clean, but Car A contributes more to the greenhouse effect".

 

troy

larsb

quote E-Troy:"Please note, I'm not saying we should not be concerned about CO2/greenhouse gas. But to say "Car A emits more CO2 and therefore A is dirtier" is not an accurate statement."-end quote

 

No, actually, that statement is true if "more harmful to the environment" can be equated to "dirtier" and I BET if you asked GreenPeace or the Union of Concerned Scientists, they would AGREE that "more GHG=dirtier."

 

Anyone else think "more harmful to the environment" does NOT equal "dirtier" in the quest to clean the Earth?

yerth10

"Diesel has better efficiency and fuel flexibilty."

 

There are Flex Fuel vehicles running on gasolene also. 4 million vehicles in USA can run on any mixture of Gasolene and E85 (Ethanol which comes from agro-products).

 

Infact all the vehicles sold in USA has the ability to run on fuel which contains 90 % gasolene & 10 % Ethanol.

 

In Brazil, there are vehicles which are running on tri-fuel also (Gasolene, Ethanol, CNG).

 

http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_brazils_flexfuel_cars/index.htm

 

Bio-fuels are steadily gaining.