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In 2006, federal regulations will require petroleum diesel producers to start removing most of the sulfur they've used for lubrication in their fuel, and biodiesel is a good substitute, he said.
"Every drop that can be produced will be sucked up by the (sales) channel," Estill said. "Right now, demand far exceeds the supply."
http://newsobserver.com/news/ncwire_news/story/2071183p-8453784c.- html
BIN 9 - non-CA region
=====================
Civic Hybrid = 6
Jetta/Beetle/Golf TDI = 6
BIN 10 - non-CA region
======================
Civic Hybrid = 4
Jetta/Beetle/Golf TDI = 4
The Civic Hybrid & TDIs are equally clean *if you apply the same standard*.
.
I don't understand why fueleconomy.gov mixes different test standards? It's hard to make comparisons when one car is BIN 9 and the other car is BIN 10. Nevertheless, when running the high-sulfur gasoline/diesel, both the VW TDIs and Civic Hybrid end up with equal ratings.
When run with no-sulfur gasoline, the Civic Hybrid scores a 9..... and the TDIs??? We'll just have to wait until 2006 when no-sulfur diesel arrives.
troy
I wonder if CARB has tested the VW TDI's with ULSD that is fairly easy to get in California.
.
HCH is a 1.3 liter car. If you compare that to a 1.3 liter diesel (Lupo), you will get 80 mpg combined. That's about 70% better.
Now I know you're already going to say, "But the Lupo is smaller!" so let's do a more direct comparison: Jetta Gasoline vs. Jetta Diesel:
28 vs. 43 highway
...still about 55% improvement just by changing the fuel.
troy
Environmentalists vilify anything they don't like. Remember the Greens said the Insight, even though it gets 70mpg, was still too dirty for them to buy. They boycotted the Insight.
It's a religion with these people to hate all oil-consuming cars, regardless of cleanliness or efficiency. You can't use Ration or Reason with religious environmentalists.
troy
Every bit of progress in the world is met with resistance from one group or another. The VW TDI is a great example. Here is a platform that sells in huge numbers world wide. Yet because ONE individual in the CARB upper echelons, hates diesel, he has successfully removed it from 5 states in the USA. It is still a very successful selling power train in the other 45 states. If the VW dealership nearest me is an example, it has all but killed VW in CA. If they were not one of the largest Ford agencies in the country they would have gone by the wayside.
In fact, many of the enviro sites I looked at which have current auto information tout the Insight as a enviro-friendly car....
Why, when it is still about as good as it gets for overall "green cars"? It is one of the reasons the greenies and radical enviro types have little credibility with the populace. Plus it is hard to find two of them that agree on any practical solutions to our environmental problems.
me: Good point. And seeing that manufacturers pretty much have their plans in place for the next few years, the earliest you would see any significant change is 2007? 2008?
If the government and industry made a really, really concerted push to either get diesels or hybrids out, by about 2015 we might be able to convert 50% of the vehicles on the road from gasoline.
Since there is no immediate crisis, there will be no such push. And the auto-fleet will continue to grow.
And speaking of growth ... China is the fastest growing auto-market in the world. What are most of their new vehicles using - gas or diesel?
My guess is diesel as VW is the biggest player in China followed by GM.
Understandably, there is great excitement among diesel enthusiasts in reaching this goal, then everyone will want one.
Some mention what will be available a few years from now...and that may be so....but it is forgotten that gas-electric is also getting alot of R&D as well.
Nearly all auto manufacturers are developing their own systems: Ford, Mopar, GM, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Mercedes and even high performance cars, to name a few.
Honda recently made a press release saying the new 2006 Civic Hybrid will be completely redesigned with higher performance and efficiency.
Interesting all this talk about efforts to make the inherently cost ineffective, poor performing hybrid more efficient, less costly and better performing.
Understandably, there is great exitement among hybrid fanatics in reaching this goal, then everyone will want one.
They changed nothing about their normal schedule for the HCH redesign....
Toyota kept the orginal Prius for 5 model years, so if they do that again, the new Prius will be a 2009 model !!
For as fashionable as it has become to cut the time cycles of "concept to market" new cars, the OEM's really don't seem to have a game plan to stop the "first model year blues" .
That is really only true for "complete redesigns" or "completely new models", not really true for redesigns of established models.
The logic being if most of the car has not been in production before, then it is risky, but if there are millions of road miles on most of the components in the car, then you can feel safe.
And the Honda i-CDti is on the road in Europe now, so when it comes to the USA, it will not be a "new model" since the Euro versions of the cars on the road will have thousands, maybe millions of cumulative miles on them already, and any known problems will be addressed before release here.
Honda Toyota and VW in their own respective (Japanese, German) markets are almost totally different beasts! In Japan, for example, a Honda or Toyota engine is about ready for R/R at the 40,000 mile marker!!! How many folks in the USA would buy Honda's and Toyotas with the same "drop dead date"? VW Jetta in its European market has a 12,000 mile warranty vs 50,000 here.
True, not only for hybrids but for diesels too!
Every bit of progress in the world is met with resistance from one group or another.
So true. ;-)
Interesting all this talk about efforts to make the inherently cost ineffective, poor performing hybrid more efficient, less costly and better performing.
That’s how we got to the point of expecting more from less.
ruking1:
Generally, it is wise to not be the "first guinea pigs" to get ANY first model year!
I wouldn’t say that after owning my 1998 Accord for over seven years and 114K miles. I own one of the first batches of the completely redesigned model that rolled off the production line (about 32K cars were built before mine). It may be a matter of luck, or ability to pick the right poison.
Sure. Why do you think that is true? Given the age/proliferation of diesel in the market, 2-3% isn't something that can be bragged about.
YOU might perceive this as bragging...but...
The comment was made more along the lines of the MASSIVE resistance (at all regulatory levels and probably some R & D market levels) to diesel as reflected in its relatively low population especially over a LONG period of time!
While I do not like the implications, the best thing for diesel popularity
.."I wouldn’t say that after owning my 1998 Accord for over seven years and 114K miles. I own one of the first batches of the completely redesigned model that rolled off the production line (about 32K cars were built before mine). It may be a matter of luck, or ability to pick the right poison."...
I would not change my comment even after as you say ..."It might be a matter of luck <sic> or the ability to pick the right poison."
I had a first model year Corvette 2001 Z06,with 68,000 miles. 1/5773. In my case I dodge several bullets, American car, first model year, etc,.pretty close to flawless.
It's no one's unfair bias.
It's good, solid medical studies which have discovered which ailments are worsened and even caused by diesel exhaust chemicals.
Should "clean diesel" become readily available in the USA, at all or most of the diesel distribution locations in the country, COMBINED WITH the clean diesel engines proliferating the market, then diesel becomes a viable alternative for lowering fossil fuel usage overall.
It is highly oxymoronic that President Bush took major knocks from the so called environmental interests in the USA and the European folks over the Kyoto Accords.
As you know the European diesel market is at 40% and GROWING!! I dont really hear much about our environmental groups critizing the Kyoto participants over the diesel issue or even the fact that almost every ratifier of the Kyoto Accords has more nuclear power plants than we ever probably will have. Why? With the elimination of diesel and nuclear power plants will we use less or more fossilized fuel?
We also do not hear much from the left about doing anything to EX President Saddam in his role of lighting the Kuwait oil field fires which RAGED unabated and unmitigated 24/7 for up to a years time. If this is not a WAR CRIME and an environmental holocast of the highest order: what is?
America isn’t as anxious to switch to the diesel world yet, because of what it has offered in the past, and there is not much incentive at the moment with its price tag being 15-20% higher than regular grade gasoline. Economy, not better quality air, often dictates choices. That is the case with European and a few Asian markets (not Japan).
As for clean diesel, we’ve to see it how it works. Until then, it is simply a hypothesis. What it will offer is better fuel economy than current gasoline vehicles, and may be lower GHG emissions. But, hybrids are already doing that and more.
Diesel was always a viable alternative. But it didn’t succeed. That’s the bottom line.
I think I have already acknowledge that?
YOU see clean diesel as an hypothesis:... so are you saying that the European diesel situation is not real??
We obviously disagree. Diesels' best days are still coming! All that diesel really needs is an increase in unleaded fuel prices to take off. If you doubt that, you have either never been to Europe, or just totally want to ignore the factors that have given rise to the 40-50% of the European passenger fleet being diesel. Even a greeny like Honda has not ignored this, i.e., Honda (Accord platform) icTDI. Their goal is to have fully 33% of THEIR European sales: Honda ICTDI's, with no canabalization of their gasser sales.
BIN 9 - non-CA region
=====================
Civic Hybrid = 6
Jetta/Beetle/Golf TDI = 6
BIN 10 - non-CA region
======================
Civic Hybrid = 4
Jetta/Beetle/Golf TDI = 4
The Civic Hybrid & TDIs are equally clean *if you apply the same standard*.
What does go unsaid by this comparison is the TDI engine is more powerful and has more torque, so it would be interesting (if not academic) to see if the cleaniness factor would be the same or less, when you compare a like sized HP gasser hybrid motor with the same torque as the TDI.
Physics and chemistry sez the gasser hybrid would "NOW" be "dirtier"
The practical application is also you do not have to "try as hard" to get the higher mileage as in a gasser. Another would be recycling of waste products that would not be used.
Also, due to unleaded gas fungibility, logistic and marketing issues, it is structurally impossible for a GASSER hybrid to NOT be dependent on FOREIGN oil.
Diesel's CAN use DOMESTIC fuel. (B100 aka biodiesel, B20, used oil fryer fodder, domestic soybean based diesel, USA garbage dump biodiesel, etc)
We get you, but the score does not mean that they are "equally clean."
Those cars are equally clean based on the "score" but if you take the measure of "green house gases emitted", then the HCH is cleaner:
5.1 tons (dirtiest HCH)
versus
5.8 tons (cleanest TDI VWs)
That is why the EPA top 5 "greenest cars" include the Hybrids but does not include any diesels.
So no, these two car lines are not "equally clean."
So no, these two car lines are not "equally clean."
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/all-rank-05.htm
EPA rates Chrysler Sebring and Dodge Stratus as #1 and #2 for "greenest" cars, greener than any hybrid. If you love the environment and believe in the EPA you should sell your hybrid and buy a Sebring. You will save money too!
That's by "air pollution score", not by "overall score."
Your Sebring only rates 7.75 in combined score (overall green-ness) and the Insight rates a 9.5
So no, the Sebring is not "greener" than the hybrids.....Sorry, try again !!!
*No cars in the USA are cleaner overall than the Hybrids."
I already addressed that in my earlier post “Economy, not better quality air, often dictates choices. That is the case with European and a few Asian markets (not Japan)”
Gasoline still outsells diesel in Europe, doesn’t it? Hybrids will be there, as awareness prevails, and the technology itself evolves.
Diesels' best days are still coming! All that diesel really needs is an increase in unleaded fuel prices to take off
At that point, people will also start paying more attention to cars like Civic Hybrid and Prius, and to some extent Accord Hybrid. After all, the “economic theory” applies quite well there, at least in the most common perception of hybrid technology itself. Rarely do people realize that there is more to hybrid technology than simply see it pay off the premium, and that is contribute towards conservation of resources.
If you doubt that, you have either never been to Europe, or just totally want to ignore the factors that have given rise to the 40-50% of the European passenger fleet being diesel.
See above.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/02/toyota_introduc.html
http://www.bmw.co.uk/apm/new_bmw/mid/index/0,4504,1156_1490__,00.- html
A BMW 330d with a combined fuel consumption of 43mpg and 0-62mph at 7.2 seconds. That to me is perfection! Bring it to this side of the Ocean!
You would agree on what? the saving money part? or the "cleaner" part?
They are not "cleaner" overall. Cheaper, yes, but cleaner? No.
We have a 50 mile daily R/T commute. As it turns out most is highway driving (as is a lot of folks' in the USA). We got 50 mpg in the VW Jetta TDI even during rush hour. In effect, we could fill up every 14 days.(14.5 gal tank) One of us got tired of shifting, so another car i.e., automatic was in order (geez, I hate cars)It was been an automatic Honda Civic (12,000), Honda Civic Hybrid (20,000), Toyota Prius(29,000), Corolla (13,000), The math was pretty easy.
We also had an A/B testing situation in that a co worker has a similar commute but with the Toyota Prius. Again, I don't wish to draw ire, but his gas mileage (under "our" road and commute conditions) did not come anywhere close to advertised, but even more telling, got less than our TDI. So his 30k plus(after a 4.5 month wait) vs our 18k ... well don't want to bore folks with the math.
VW & MB have both proven that diesel cars sell very well here. I think we are seeing posturing by all the car makers to have diesel cars in the showrooms when the low sulfur diesel mandate hits the USA. Right today dealers are bringing used VW TDI's with 7500 miles on them into CA and getting MSRP. I can see a real cottage industry if CARB continues with their ignorant regulations. Buy a diesel car and drive it for 7500 miles and take it to CA and sell it for a profit. If people will pay a premium for an 100k mile throwaway hybrid they would surely pay more for a 300k mile reliable diesel.
Paying $28k for a loaded Passat TDI is more bang for your buck than a Honda Accord Hybrid for $32k. Is that a good enough example? If not I can think of dozens more.
Accord I-4: 16 mpg (city), 24 mpg (overall); 0-60 in 9.0s
Passat TDI: 18 mpg (city), 28 mpg (overall); 0-60 in 11.3s
The Accord is about $4-7K less expensive at MSRP.
Over 12K miles (per year) at $1.80/gallon, cost of fuel in Accord I-4: $900
Over 12K miles (per year) at $2.00/gallon, cost of fuel in Passat TDI: $857
That’s a whopping $43 in savings/year for a car that cost $4-7K more.
http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/cars_edmunds/
In CA, you get (AT) PZEV HCH. Accord Hybrid hasn't been rated yet, at least according to the site that provides "facts". Where are you getting your information from?
That said, getting 22 mpg isn't really cleaner than getting 29 mpg from burning fuel. Unless, some of the pollutants escape before they get to the exhaust pipe. ;-)
2005 HCH MT:
True Cost to Own* $29,082
Total Cash Price $21,811
Average Cost per Mile* $0.39
2005 Jetta GL TDI 5M:
True Cost to Own* $31,321
Total Cash Price $22,315
Average Cost per Mile* $0.42
2005 Jetta GLS TDI 5M:
True Cost to Own* $33,601
Total Cash Price $25,383
Average Cost per Mile* $0.45
2005 Jetta GLS 1.9 TDI 5M:
True Cost to Own* $32,483
Total Cash Price $24,310
Average Cost per Mile* $0.43
So let's not try to say the TDIs give "more bang for the buck" than the HCH. The HAH is not listed in Edmund's Accord models yet, so we cannot compare the HAH to the Jetta TDIs right now.
Maybe in a couple of months, Hosts?