Funny.. even though it takes 9.8 seconds to get to 60 (Motor Trend) it took them 13 seconds in a TDI. That's fast? Just recently there was a test of the two cars and the Prius was 3 seconds faster from 30-70 than the TDI. Hello.. that's a LONG time! The journalists can say what they want. They're enthusiasts who drive all different type of iron. Have a look at how well the Prius and Civic Hybrid are selling. Have a look at reliability records of VW in Consumer Reports and then look at Toyota. Heck.. even look at the Prius. VW can't hold a candle to Toyota reliability. I LOVE not having a key. That's a gimmick ?? LOL..that's the future folks. Get used to it. A great deal of high end cars have that now. I'll be chuckling this winter when my neighbor warms up his diesel when I just press a button and scoot off to work. In 2 minutes time I'm already getting warm air.
"djasonw -Did you say the TDI was a turtle? You must have been thinking of the Prius. quote- When we finally did get a Prius to the track, the wait wasn't over. We lollygagged around for 10.5 seconds while the car labored its way to 60 mph. It needed another 10.5 to get to 80 and, while we'd have waited all day to see 100 mph-end "
Now that I think of it, when I had the Prius for the better part of the work day, it did take a pretty long time to get to 85 mph! I felt like I was flogging it, so I didn't really push it.
The Prius feels that way because of the CVT. Bottom line is time and the Prius (not fast by any standards) is faster than a TDI to 60 and 30-70. Read the reports. That doesn't mean I wouldn't buy one. I want one that's reliable, and spews out as much emissions as my Prius. I also want one with built in NAV, smart entry, and rear leg room like my Prius has. Build it and I'll take a chance and buy one.
"diesels are going to have to offer a lot more bells and whistles before the US population embrace them"
Truth of the matter is..most AVERAGE families cannot afford a new Prius @ close to 30K. Most AVERAGE families buy used 1-5 years old. By adding "more bells and whistles" you drive the price of cars ever higher making them even farther out of reach, I'm glad that VW offers the AFFORDABLE golf TDI ~18K delivered brand spanking new, thats $9,000 less than the average Prius...which makes purchasing one new more attainable for the AVERAGE family.
You must of read the wrong reports. LOL... Yup the Prius is a tad faster than the TDI. Shall I post the most recent one? Perhaps I shouldn't ..wouldn't want you to get insulted.
The run to 60 took the Toyota 10.7 seconds and a second longer for the VW.
The passing gap was wider: the Prius went from 30 mph to 70 mph in 10.7 seconds (a coincidence) while the more sluggish Jetta required 13.6 seconds to accomplish the task.
My own subjective experience in the Prius actually tracks with the Auto Week tester! I read this posting actually much later after I had driven the Prius. At the time, the Prius felt slower to get to 85 when I would have been way past that on the TDI!!?? So no, I don't feel insulted at all. The fact of the matter when one buys either the TDI or the Prius, unless you take the modification road, the zero to 60 measure for practical driving purposes does not really matter. Or lets just say that in considering the Prius, Civic, TDI, 0-60 was not high on my priority list.
Definitely was not on my list either. If that was important, we'd both be driving something else. What matters is that we both enjoy our cars. Happy 4th to all.
For myself, I am waiting to see what are the issues Prius' have the first 5/10 years. For me the TDI represents a leap in faith and so far (32k) it has simply been flawless. Getting the fuel mileage while "flogging it" has also been pretty amazing.
I have had mixed experiences with Toyota products from dismal on the 85 Camry product to real good for the TLC products, years: 87,91,94,96,97. My parents had real good luck with a 1986 Toyota in line 6 cyn station wagon.
Was the TDI a manual or automatic? I'm willing to bet that it was an automatic since the hybrid enthusiasts prefer to ignore the manual data in order to try to equal the mpg of the diesels. The results for 0-60 mph 10.5 seconds and 1/4 mile 17.94 seconds for 2004 Jetta TDI 5 spd manual. Most TDI are sold with manual transmission and the manual is quicker and more fuel efficient.
So diesel is faster than hybrid. What about braking and handling? quote-Skinny tires proved to be the Prius' Achilles' heel in braking and cornering tests. The Jetta stopped 20 feet shorter from 70 mph (172 versus 192 feet) and was able to corner better.-
Accelerates faster, corners better, obtains better real world fuel economy when equipped with manual. Very, very impressive.
The article good points about diesel in general. quote- Diesels are fundamentally more efficient than gasoline engines, on several counts. Each gallon of diesel fuel contains 10 percent more energy than a gallon of gasoline.
Diesels don't squander energy by pumping the air they need for combustion past a throttle as gas engines do.
Their expansion ratios (the flip side of an engine's compression ratio), are at least 50 percent higher, to extract the maximum amount of useful work out of every drop of fuel. -end
It sounds like from the article that the Jetta was equipped with an automatic transmission. That is not hardly fair when several Prius owners adamantly claim the CVT is not an automatic "transmission". Several Prius owners can describe it's operation better than I. So in all fairness the TDI should be equipped with the most efficient transfer of power available for a legitimate test. Not that it means anything. The bottom line is getting the vehicle a person likes to drive and the best economy in that particular vehicle. Emissions is important but not the most important criteria. If it was everyone would drive an electric vehicle, CNG car or an Insight.
Both cars have their good virtues. To speculate on a car's longevity based on the newness of the technology is not fair. Remember, the Prius has been around since 1997 and there doesn't appear to be a problem with batteries/motors failing. With respect to the tires, I personally upgraded my wheels/tires on my Prius and it makes a world of difference. The OEM tires on the Prius are a joke! Speaking of OEM tires, just look at the rubber they put on the audi allroad (my previous car). Those tires were horrible and every enthusiast changed them.
I think many OEM tires are less than great. Remember the Firestone/Explorer match up. I think the reason there is so much speculation on the longevity of the Prius is there is so little information on the earlier Prius (1997-2000). I know if I bring up issues on the 2001 to 2003 Prius I get the response that those cars were not nearly as good as the 2004. So it looks like the longevity will have to be based on the 2004 and newer. It will be 4 to 5 years until we know the longterm reliability of the Prius. The only high mileage Prius document referred to the cab in Vancouver, BC. I am sure we will see some 100k mile Prius posters in the near future. I consider 100-150k miles a good test of any vehicle. I have never kept a vehicle past 107k miles.
> I'm willing to bet that it was an automatic since the hybrid enthusiasts prefer to ignore the manual data in order to try to equal the mpg of the diesels.
Since 90% of the US population prefers a transmission that doesn't require shifting, only 10% of the population actually cares about manuals. Don't imply that isn't true.
Also, diesels owners are guilty of ignoring the fact that MPG suffers horribly in stop & slow traffic, which is what a majority of the population has to deal with routinely. Hybrid thrive under those conditions. In fact, the value on my Prius Multi-Display currently says I'm getting 62.1 MPG after having driven 61 miles in suburb-type driving. Try to match that with a diesel.
Another thing that is not acknowledged in this discussion is the fact that the current TDI spews out a great deal more pollutants than the hybrids. Glad to hear your MFD says over 60. The best I have been able to achieve in suburban only driving is 56, but I keep my pressures at 35/33. Yesterday was a real bad day driving home. It took over an hour to drive 20 miles. I guess people were getting an early start to the weekend. I coasted most of the way home. The best part of the ride was when we stood still for around 30 seconds and the engine was off and I was still keeping quite cool. Can't do that in a diesel!!!
quote John-Since 90% of the US population prefers a transmission that doesn't require shifting, only 10% of the population actually cares about manuals. Don't imply that isn't true.-
This is about diesels vs. hybrids, NOT the preference of 90% of the population. Majority of diesel buyers prefer manual transmissions. Your statement that 90% of the population does not care about manuals is bizarre in the context of this hybrid vs. diesel discussion.
Your statement that diesel owners are guilty of ignoring horrible mpg in city with diesel is ridiculous and misleading. Definition of guilt or guilty is "responsible for wrongdoing or a crime".
Ignoring 42 mpg city is a crime? That is laughable. A 2003 Jetta Wagon with TDI and manual transmission is rated at 42 mpg city and 50 mpg highway. My average mpg with my 2002 Jetta Wagon was 45 mpg. My average with my Golf TDI with automatic was 42 mpg. This is a mix of city and highway. Other TDI owners report mpg avg. of over 50 mpg and over 60 mpg on highway trips. I'm extremely satisfied with mpg in the 40's and I do not drive conservatively or increase the pressure in my tires above 32 psi. Hybrid drivers in my area that drive similar to me have avg mpg in the high 30's and low 40's. The only exception is the Insight owners who obtain in the 60's.
There is no diesel currently offered that obtains mpg higher in city than in highway. That is a fact. No one here is denying it or ignoring it. Same is true with emissions. Diesel emits more than hybrid. It is a fact. I'm not concerned about the emissions of clean diesels such as TDI and Mercedes CDI.
Hybrid owners are the ones in denial with poor mpg. And it is funny to hear hybrid owners complain about mileage that is in the 40's since that is excellent mileage. Hybrid owners go to great lengths to explain why the Prius and other hybrids do so poorly in road tests. Someone has even invented a new type of driving called "suburb" driving.
Diesels do pollute a great deal more. TDI's pollute six times as much as a Prius if my sources are correct. Still the TDI is clean compared to some old gas cars. The Prius I have with upgraded tires and wheels (16") handles fine for the type of driving I do. If someone approached me with a BRAND new Passat TDI (LOADED) and asked me for my Prius as an even exchange I'd say NO THANKS!
quote-Another thing that is not acknowledged in this discussion is the fact that the current TDI spews out a great deal more pollutants than the hybrids.
Colorful language djason. TDI does not spew anything, it is incapable of vomiting. The fact is that emissions of diesel are acknowledged 100's of times in this topic. Diesel emits more pollutants than any hybrid. That is a fact. You need to reread the posts in this topic.
I do not place a high level of importance on emissions of clean diesels. Greater than 80% of the pollution problem where I live is caused by industry, not vehicles. Were I to live in CA where majority of smog is from vehicles the priority would be different.
The emissions can be endlessly discussed until 2006 when sulfur reduction in diesel fuel will allow improved emissions controls in diesels.
It is true that the TDI Jetta pollutes more than the hybrids. It is no where near as polluting as several other Toyota vehicles. I just looked at the EPA ratings for this year. The Toyota Land Cruiser is rated 0 on emissions the Jetta TDI is a 4. The Toyota puts out close to 3 times the CO2 of the TDI. Actually the Toyota Land Cruiser/LX470 are two of the worst polluters on the planet, worse than Hummer2, Suburban, & Excursion, all much larger vehicles. So just because Toyota has ONE vehicle that is exceptional does not relieve them of their responsibility on the others they build. You can be proud of the emissions of the Prius but not Toyota. I seriously doubt that VW world wide pollutes percentage wise what Toyota does.
Cross-Class comparisons are totally inappropriate and extremely misleading, especially since those vehicles aren't even intended to serve the same purpose.
But if you insist, I could point out that the VW Touareg TDI pollutes the highest level of NOx (smog) emissions of any SUV (or vehicle for that matter) available.
> Someone has even invented a new type of driving called "suburb" driving.
That was to end the intentional misrepresentation of the "city" & "highway" terms.
By using "suburb", vague references are significantly reduced. So if your intentions are sincere, you will use it. If not, you will avoid the term entirely.
CITY: driving up to 30 MPH with very frequent stops (averaging more than one every minute).
SUBURB: driving 35-50 MPH with only an occasional stop (one every few minutes) and a duration of at least 15 minutes.
HIGHWAY: driving 55-70 MPH with no stops at all and a minimum of 20 minutes.
Depends on your personal opinion. When they build a hybrid that meets my vehicle/performance needs, I might think more about emissions. In the mean time, diesel is the only choice available for me in something that gets similar mpg.
Another thing that is not acknowledged in this discussion is the fact that the current TDI spews out a great deal more pollutants than the hybrids.
Could you point me to where anywhere this has not been acknowledged? Seems like it's been acknowledged over and over again. Are you running out of positives for the Prius and starting over again?
I guess I drive a combo of city/suburb in my 03 Jetta TDI wagon with an automatic. I just drive it and don't make any attempt to conserve fuel - I get almost exactly 40 MPG on average. If I mix some highway driving into that tank I easily get into the mid 40's - highway for me is 85 to 90 mph just to stay with traffic. The Jetta easily cruises at these speeds with no strain whatsoever.
As far as "performance" goes the TDI is interesting. I can tell that anyone who knocks a TDI's "performance" especially with an automatic hasn't ever driven one.
In everyday driving, in city, suburban or highway it feels like I have a V6 or even a V8 under the hood. All that torque so low in the rpm range makes it really responsive from a stop. Just a little tap on the pedal and it easily and effortlessly stays with any traffic. Merging onto a highway, sprinting from 60 to 80 mph, it never feels underpowered, I was totally impressed the first time I test drove it.
My TDI shares garage space with a 300 HP Subaru WRX STi - I love performance cars, always have a BMW of some type in my garage as well. My 03 TDI wagon it the most satisfying, entertaining car I currently own. Of course I did have to put some 18" BBS wheels and high performance tires on it with some tweaks to the suspension like sport springs and a rear swaybar - but that's just me - it handles like it's on rails now. love it
quote djasonw-TDI's pollute six times as much as a Prius if my sources are correct. Still the TDI is clean compared to some old gas cars.-
All VW TDI score a 4 on the EPA Green Vehicle Guide for air pollution and the manual TDI scores a 9 out of 10 for greenhouse gas. There are THREE PAGES of 2004 vehicles that score lower than TDI's. FACT.
When you refer to old gas cars are you thinking of Toyota Celica, Toyota 4Runner, Toyota Tacoma, Infiniti FX35, or the rest of the list (3 pages) of 2004 vehicles with worse pollution scores than TDI?
Glad to hear you're enjoying your TDI. I drove one with a stick a few years ago but it vibrated too much for my taste at idle. 18" wheels where I live is asking for trouble. My friend has a brand new A4 and the ride is actually punishing on all but smooth roads (far and few here). I'm looking forward to the new body style Golf and Passat and hopefully they'll have HIDs and NAV. I'm spoiled now with all the options I have on the Prius.
True - both my other cars have Xenons. People do retrofit thier VW's with European VW Xenon's - I don't have the time for that. I'd like bluetooth, Xenon's and a nice Nav system - that's what the Jetta lacks. Did install a little powered sub and XM recently - nice sound system now.
My perfect car would be a diesel Acura TL with all wheel drive. :-)
Sebring mentioned this fuel is available at BP. Is that true around the country? Can you actually get the reformulated diesel there?
From what I've seen/heard from BP/Amoco, it's hit/miss on availability. There are other brands that have premium fuels though. Sunoco has a high cetane/low sulphur fuel. Keep in mind these are 30ppm and 50cetane. 15ppm is the guidelines for '06. Most standard #2 diesel is couple hundred ppm for on-road use.
Thanks for the information. As an aside, I read an interesting article regarding MBTE (I think that's the acronym) and they eliminated that from NY gas which is causing higher prices here. They call the fuel a boutique mix due to the fact it has to have 10% ethanol. I am wondering if the reformulated diesel will be more expensive due to the additional refining costs.
I could point out that the VW Touareg TDI pollutes the highest level of NOx (smog) emissions of any SUV (or vehicle for that matter) available.
You are absolutely correct on the TDI Toureg. Why anyone would think of buying one is beyond me. I consider it a step backward. Hopefully they don't sell very many. Just as I hope Toyota does not sell many Land Cruisers or LX470s.
They've estimated it will add a nickel at the pump. The problem with Ethanol is that it absorbs water and can't be pumped through the pipeline like petro products. Has to be trucked to the final fuel depot, plus it's expensive right from the start.
The gasoline situation with these boutique fuels is a part of why gasoline is so expensive. Refineries are spread thin and with so many different requirements coming from every yahoo state government, quantity production is essentially limited.
Can anyone with a 2004 TDI tell me how well the car's cabin heats up in the winter compared to a gas engine car. I know the Prius has an auxilliary type of heater to provide intitial warmth. I also am curious how well the new TDI's idle compared to say a conventional 2.0 l or 1.8t. Better, worse, same? Any info would be appreciated.
But if you insist, I could point out that the VW Touareg TDI pollutes the highest level of NOx (smog) emissions of any SUV (or vehicle for that matter) available.
John, at it again: Not only are there several Toyota products and a Land Rover product with worse emissions, they get far less mpg. It's one of the worst for light-duty similarly classified "vehicles", how about that?
If it had a 3rd row and was a bit wider, I'd consider it to replace my Tahoe. Certainly would tow better and get a lot better mpg. Performance to wipe a lot of cars off the map too. Sorry I'm not satisfied putzying in the slow-lane to get 50mpg. Which is why I drive a TDI.
It was: "Cross-Class comparisons are totally inappropriate and extremely misleading".
It makes absolutely no sense comparing a large truck to a midsize car, period. So quit trying to derail the discussion. Get back on topic: "Hybrid vs Diesel" not "truck vs car" or "this company vs that company".
What is it called, if you drive between 30-35, is that Cityurban ? What is it called, if you drive between 50-55, is that Highurban ?
Assuming you could go 75 mph or over what would you call that? I understand some of the current HSH vehicles are not recommneded to go outside of the Highway range because of tire load characteristics and power limitations. But wouldn't 70-85 still be highway ?
YMMV,
MidCow
P.S. - Saw a classic Prius yesterday in the next to left most lane going about 60. Traffic was slowing down behind it and to the left and right until they could pass it. I guess the Prius was working on getting high mpg. Backup was less than a 1/4 mile. I wonder if the one Prius cause the other cars it was also slowing down to polute more or less ?
It also had the best miles per gallon in its class .
If you look carefully the class if you could call it that was limited to between 1.4 and 1.8 liters. It was almost as if they designed or limited the displacement of the class so that only the Prius would be in the class. An guess what , if you are the only one in the class then you will always win. If you compare a Prius to only a Prius then winner will always be a Prius.
It like saying you have ten numbers 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10 in the entire universe. In the class between .9 and 1.1 what is the best number. Well Duh there is only one, "1".
What other cars were in the same class as the Prius?
I'm sorry, I wasn't ignoring it. I just was responding to the part that was utterly false.
You stated:
Cross-Class comparisons are totally inappropriate and extremely misleading, especially since those vehicles aren't even intended to serve the same purpose.
So says you. Sounds like you work for the EPA? It's ok that one vehicle emits more emissions, because one is intended for towing/hauling/off-roading (wink, wink, nudge, nudge). They're both passenger vehicles, one just has a higher tow rating. I can cross shop a Hybrid, TDI, or Landcruiser if I want.
Get back on topic: "Hybrid vs Diesel" not "truck vs car" or "this company vs that company"
Sir yes Sir! Anything Hybrid owners don't want to hear is hereby off-topic!
I think the other thing that you were pointing out is that Toyota is not necessarily a "green" company. That it manufacturers vehicles all over the pollution spectrum from a "green" Prius to a "smog Brown" Sequoia.
Sebring95 thanks for your comments, input, and perspective. It is nice to have a fresh new perspective; after awhile the boring ,repeating opinions sometimes drone out other input.
I rarely see classics or the new model in my neck of the woods. They've never been popular here. I did see one new one the other day and I could barely keep up with it. He was weaving in an out and driving like a maniac. I just stayed in the left lane and did my 75 and grinned when I got home. My MPG was still 47.3 for the week.
I can think of quite a few cars in that range. One really nice one that comes to mind is the Audi A4 with the 1.8 liter engine. Amazing how people can't stand the fact that the Prius keeps winning these awards.
Comments
There are dealerships in Las Vegas, NV too!
For anyone considering a TDI...this site will scare you a bit.
Now that I think of it, when I had the Prius for the better part of the work day, it did take a pretty long time to get to 85 mph! I felt like I was flogging it, so I didn't really push it.
Truth of the matter is..most AVERAGE families cannot afford a new Prius @ close to 30K. Most AVERAGE families buy used 1-5 years old. By adding "more bells and whistles" you drive the price of cars ever higher making them even farther out of reach, I'm glad that VW offers the AFFORDABLE golf TDI ~18K delivered brand spanking new, thats $9,000 less than the average Prius...which makes purchasing one new more attainable for the AVERAGE family.
The passing gap was wider: the Prius went from 30 mph to 70 mph in 10.7 seconds (a coincidence) while the more sluggish Jetta required 13.6 seconds to accomplish the task.
More sluggish Jetta... hmmm...
http://www.cleveland.com/search/index.ssf?/base/business/10877346- - 48278220.xml?banew
I have had mixed experiences with Toyota products from dismal on the 85 Camry product to real good for the TLC products, years: 87,91,94,96,97. My parents had real good luck with a 1986 Toyota in line 6 cyn station wagon.
The results for 0-60 mph 10.5 seconds and 1/4 mile 17.94 seconds for 2004 Jetta TDI 5 spd manual. Most TDI are sold with manual transmission and the manual is quicker and more fuel efficient.
So diesel is faster than hybrid. What about braking and handling?
quote-Skinny tires proved to be the Prius' Achilles' heel in braking and cornering tests. The Jetta stopped 20 feet shorter from 70 mph (172 versus 192 feet) and was able to corner better.-
Accelerates faster, corners better, obtains better real world fuel economy when equipped with manual. Very, very impressive.
The article good points about diesel in general. quote- Diesels are fundamentally more efficient than gasoline engines, on several counts. Each gallon of diesel fuel contains 10 percent more energy than a gallon of gasoline.
Diesels don't squander energy by pumping the air they need for combustion past a throttle as gas engines do.
Their expansion ratios (the flip side of an engine's compression ratio), are at least 50 percent higher, to extract the maximum amount of useful work out of every drop of fuel. -end
Since 90% of the US population prefers a transmission that doesn't require shifting, only 10% of the population actually cares about manuals. Don't imply that isn't true.
Also, diesels owners are guilty of ignoring the fact that MPG suffers horribly in stop & slow traffic, which is what a majority of the population has to deal with routinely. Hybrid thrive under those conditions. In fact, the value on my Prius Multi-Display currently says I'm getting 62.1 MPG after having driven 61 miles in suburb-type driving. Try to match that with a diesel.
JOHN
This is about diesels vs. hybrids, NOT the preference of 90% of the population. Majority of diesel buyers prefer manual transmissions.
Your statement that 90% of the population does not care about manuals is bizarre in the context of this hybrid vs. diesel discussion.
Your statement that diesel owners are guilty of ignoring horrible mpg in city with diesel is ridiculous and misleading. Definition of guilt or guilty is "responsible for wrongdoing or a crime".
Ignoring 42 mpg city is a crime? That is laughable. A 2003 Jetta Wagon with TDI and manual transmission is rated at 42 mpg city and 50 mpg highway. My average mpg with my 2002 Jetta Wagon was 45 mpg. My average with my Golf TDI with automatic was 42 mpg. This is a mix of city and highway. Other TDI owners report mpg avg. of over 50 mpg and over 60 mpg on highway trips. I'm extremely satisfied with mpg in the 40's and I do not drive conservatively or increase the pressure in my tires above 32 psi. Hybrid drivers in my area that drive similar to me have avg mpg in the high 30's and low 40's. The only exception is the Insight owners who obtain in the 60's.
There is no diesel currently offered that obtains mpg higher in city than in highway. That is a fact. No one here is denying it or ignoring it. Same is true with emissions. Diesel emits more than hybrid. It is a fact. I'm not concerned about the emissions of clean diesels such as TDI and Mercedes CDI.
Hybrid owners are the ones in denial with poor mpg. And it is funny to hear hybrid owners complain about mileage that is in the 40's since that is excellent mileage. Hybrid owners go to great lengths to explain why the Prius and other hybrids do so poorly in road tests. Someone has even invented a new type of driving called "suburb" driving.
Colorful language djason. TDI does not spew anything, it is incapable of vomiting. The fact is that emissions of diesel are acknowledged 100's of times in this topic. Diesel emits more pollutants than any hybrid. That is a fact. You need to reread the posts in this topic.
I do not place a high level of importance on emissions of clean diesels. Greater than 80% of the pollution problem where I live is caused by industry, not vehicles. Were I to live in CA where majority of smog is from vehicles the priority would be different.
The emissions can be endlessly discussed until 2006 when sulfur reduction in diesel fuel will allow improved emissions controls in diesels.
But if you insist, I could point out that the VW Touareg TDI pollutes the highest level of NOx (smog) emissions of any SUV (or vehicle for that matter) available.
JOHN
That was to end the intentional misrepresentation of the "city" & "highway" terms.
By using "suburb", vague references are significantly reduced. So if your intentions are sincere, you will use it. If not, you will avoid the term entirely.
CITY: driving up to 30 MPH with very frequent stops (averaging more than one every minute).
SUBURB: driving 35-50 MPH with only an occasional stop (one every few minutes) and a duration of at least 15 minutes.
HIGHWAY: driving 55-70 MPH with no stops at all and a minimum of 20 minutes.
JOHN
Depends on your personal opinion. When they build a hybrid that meets my vehicle/performance needs, I might think more about emissions. In the mean time, diesel is the only choice available for me in something that gets similar mpg.
Another thing that is not acknowledged in this discussion is the fact that the current TDI spews out a great deal more pollutants than the hybrids.
Could you point me to where anywhere this has not been acknowledged? Seems like it's been acknowledged over and over again. Are you running out of positives for the Prius and starting over again?
It gets rather redundant hearing about all the awards that keep getting added to the Prius list.
Two days ago, it was the "International Engine of the Year 2004" by a jury consisting of 56 renowned journalists from 24 counties.
JOHN
As far as "performance" goes the TDI is interesting. I can tell that anyone who knocks a TDI's "performance" especially with an automatic hasn't ever driven one.
In everyday driving, in city, suburban or highway it feels like I have a V6 or even a V8 under the hood. All that torque so low in the rpm range makes it really responsive from a stop. Just a little tap on the pedal and it easily and effortlessly stays with any traffic. Merging onto a highway, sprinting from 60 to 80 mph, it never feels underpowered, I was totally impressed the first time I test drove it.
My TDI shares garage space with a 300 HP Subaru WRX STi - I love performance cars, always have a BMW of some type in my garage as well. My 03 TDI wagon it the most satisfying, entertaining car I currently own. Of course I did have to put some 18" BBS wheels and high performance tires on it with some tweaks to the suspension like sport springs and a rear swaybar - but that's just me - it handles like it's on rails now. love it
All VW TDI score a 4 on the EPA Green Vehicle Guide for air pollution and the manual TDI scores a 9 out of 10 for greenhouse gas. There are THREE PAGES of 2004 vehicles that score lower than TDI's. FACT.
When you refer to old gas cars are you thinking of Toyota Celica, Toyota 4Runner, Toyota Tacoma, Infiniti FX35, or the rest of the list (3 pages) of 2004 vehicles with worse pollution scores than TDI?
My perfect car would be a diesel Acura TL with all wheel drive. :-)
Make that a wagon while I'm dreaming.
Sebring mentioned this fuel is available at BP. Is that true around the country? Can you actually get the reformulated diesel there?
From what I've seen/heard from BP/Amoco, it's hit/miss on availability. There are other brands that have premium fuels though. Sunoco has a high cetane/low sulphur fuel. Keep in mind these are 30ppm and 50cetane. 15ppm is the guidelines for '06. Most standard #2 diesel is couple hundred ppm for on-road use.
You are absolutely correct on the TDI Toureg. Why anyone would think of buying one is beyond me. I consider it a step backward. Hopefully they don't sell very many. Just as I hope Toyota does not sell many Land Cruisers or LX470s.
The gasoline situation with these boutique fuels is a part of why gasoline is so expensive. Refineries are spread thin and with so many different requirements coming from every yahoo state government, quantity production is essentially limited.
John, at it again: Not only are there several Toyota products and a Land Rover product with worse emissions, they get far less mpg. It's one of the worst for light-duty similarly classified "vehicles", how about that?
If it had a 3rd row and was a bit wider, I'd consider it to replace my Tahoe. Certainly would tow better and get a lot better mpg. Performance to wipe a lot of cars off the map too. Sorry I'm not satisfied putzying in the slow-lane to get 50mpg. Which is why I drive a TDI.
Why did you completely ignore my comment?
It was: "Cross-Class comparisons are totally inappropriate and extremely misleading".
It makes absolutely no sense comparing a large truck to a midsize car, period. So quit trying to derail the discussion. Get back on topic: "Hybrid vs Diesel" not "truck vs car" or "this company vs that company".
JOHN
http://ecdiesel.com/business/locator.asp
What is it called, if you drive between 50-55, is that Highurban ?
Assuming you could go 75 mph or over what would you call that? I understand some of the current HSH vehicles are not recommneded to go outside of the Highway range because of tire load characteristics and power limitations. But wouldn't 70-85 still be highway ?
YMMV,
MidCow
P.S. - Saw a classic Prius yesterday in the next to left most lane going about 60. Traffic was slowing down behind it and to the left and right until they could pass it. I guess the Prius was working on getting high mpg. Backup was less than a 1/4 mile. I wonder if the one Prius cause the other cars it was also slowing down to polute more or less ?
If you look carefully the class if you could call it that was limited to between 1.4 and 1.8 liters. It was almost as if they designed or limited the displacement of the class so that only the Prius would be in the class. An guess what , if you are the only one in the class then you will always win. If you compare a Prius to only a Prius then winner will always be a Prius.
It like saying you have ten numbers 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10 in the entire universe. In the class between .9 and 1.1 what is the best number. Well Duh there is only one, "1".
What other cars were in the same class as the Prius?
YMMV,
MidCow
I'm sorry, I wasn't ignoring it. I just was responding to the part that was utterly false.
You stated:
Cross-Class comparisons are totally inappropriate and extremely misleading, especially since those vehicles aren't even intended to serve the same purpose.
So says you. Sounds like you work for the EPA? It's ok that one vehicle emits more emissions, because one is intended for towing/hauling/off-roading (wink, wink, nudge, nudge). They're both passenger vehicles, one just has a higher tow rating. I can cross shop a Hybrid, TDI, or Landcruiser if I want.
Get back on topic: "Hybrid vs Diesel" not "truck vs car" or "this company vs that company"
Sir yes Sir! Anything Hybrid owners don't want to hear is hereby off-topic!
I think the other thing that you were pointing out is that Toyota is not necessarily a "green" company. That it manufacturers vehicles all over the pollution spectrum from a "green" Prius to a "smog Brown" Sequoia.
Sebring95 thanks for your comments, input, and perspective. It is nice to have a fresh new perspective; after awhile the boring ,repeating opinions sometimes drone out other input.
YMMV,
MidCow