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Comments
Anyway , I looked at my gas bills and I am paying about $250 a month now. I figure i would only save about half $125 per month and I really really wouldn't enjoy the performance.
So my car choices (all 6-speeds) are : S2000, G35 Coupe, Accord Coupe, TL, maybe Accord Hybrid
However, right now I am keep-on drivin my 5-speed IS300 at 21 mpg.
I didn't buy swamp land in Florida, but I did buy National Forrest land in Houston last weekend.
YMMV,
MidCow
Just a minor correction...it was George S. as in George Strait, not George Jones.
The VW Jetta TDI has two hidden benefits, which in my case remains to be seen,
(only 32,000 miles and still needs to hit 60,000 miles to be considered broken in or have full PSI, even though there are diesel Jettas that have gone 630,000 miles with normal documented maintenance and some unschedule maintenance.)
1. 12 year unlimited rust through warranty
2. 10,000 hr diesel engine
(at an average speed of 55 mph that comes out to 550,000 miles.
While this can be considered arcane, whatever the design hrs are on the gasser portion of the Prius,
(probably a deep dark Toyota secret)
should, in theory keep the car on the road longer by virtue of the fact that there is a high % of mileage (25% by mileage calculations) where the gasser engine is "off," reduced load, etc., etc.
So using the 10,000 hr diesel engine design life as a point of discussion only;
(I have no knowledge of the design life of the Prius gasser)
25% more would put the design life in at 12,500 hrs and again at 55 mph average speed = 687,500 miles.
We will be brining in some industry experts to this chat, so I want to make sure I have a time that works for the majority of you.
CLICK HERE to post the best time for you to participate in a chat. Please include your time zone. Also, if Tuesdays don't work, suggest another day of the week.
Thanks!
Sorry, but you have yet to provide any proof that a vehicle itself can actually survive longer than even 250,000 miles.
Rust, corrosion, chipping, and interior deterioration will get the best of it by then. So the distance beyond that is basically completely worthless unless you include an itemized list of the replacement of all the aged items too.
But realistically, it doesn't matter. The desire for change (human nature) will get most people long before that anyway.
JOHN
Realistically that is why the average age of the vehicle fleet is 8.5 years old.
I really have no problems with you paying 12.5 cents per mile for your older Prius! (calculated from your figures, not mine) I also have in the past gotten .028 cents per mile, and that was for a 14 year old vehicle with 250,000 miles on it. Lastly, I have no issues with you paying 4.5x per mile more! Over 100,000 miles that is $12,500 vs $2,800.
Not true. I live in Minnesota. That's where 90% of the vehicles go out of service before reaching year 10, and it is pretty obvious to see by just simply observing rush-hour traffic.
So again, if you area is different, please provide the proof.
I just plain don't believe exceeding 250,000 miles with a car that isn't a beater (yet reliable) is anywhere near as common as you claim.
JOHN
Ignorance is bliss! I am also ok with your disbelief.
Also, "rust-through" is not the same as "surface-rust".
And if you read my post again, you'll see that I asked to prove that they are "as common as you claim". I never once said it wasn't possible. I didn't dismiss anything either. I said that the vehicle cannot be found among commute traffic. In other words, not used for daily needs anymore.
So... do I actually get some proof now or just more song & dance from someone (anyone for that matter)? I'm forced to provide data. How come others aren't?
JOHN
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item- - =2482311278&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
The mileage isn't even listed.
That was the whole point.
Storing a vehicle or only using it occasionally, then selling it later is a no big deal. Actually using it for daily commutes the entire time is far more difficult.
Anyone can find an example of an old vehicle. Heck, I even know of 2 ordinary gas cars that have exceeded 200,000 miles. But 2 of several thousand is hardly considered "common".
JOHN
JOHN
If the AVERAGE age of the passenger car fleet is 8.5 years old, and the average yearly mileage figures are 12,000 -15,000 miles, what is the "common" mileage at the AVERAGE or common?
Using a normal standard deviation what % can you expect to find in the "uncommon" SD?
If I can sell my 2003 for $2,550 (or more) at the 23 year old mark that would be way cool. At my current yearly mileage, and purchase price that would be a monthly ownership cost of $60.00 and a per mile cost of $.0297658.
All this is real good, even compared to my Toyota Landcruiser 87 which cost $42 per mo to own and a per mile cost of $.028
That has absolutely nothing to do with when a vehicle gets taken out of service.
No matter. You obviously don't want to provide the data I requested... or any, for that matter.
JOHN
If the ebay listing comes up it is 143,000 miles. That is not my point. It is that people want vehicles that get good mileage no matter what the power source. There are all types of high mileage vehicles on the world market. We are not allowed to purchase them because of short sighted legislation. NO Auto maker has built a small truck for sale in the USA since 1980s, that gets good mileage. We know it is possible because the VW diesel in the ad was a consistent 45-50 mpg PU. And as a result they are still in high demand. If a contractor can buy a midsize truck to run around to his jobs that gets 45 mpg he is not going to use a 3/4 ton diesel truck that gets 19 mpg. Unless he has a large load to haul. The smaller modern diesel spews less pollution than a large diesel for the same amount of miles driven. If the person is conscientious and it is available they will use the ULSD and create less of a problem. Hybrids are only available in smaller sizes, in limited numbers. Hybrids are far from proven efficient in larger vehicles.
There is no reason on this earth why a vehicle can not be designed to operate on a 15-25 year lifecycle platform. As a comparison, the average age of the passenger fleet is 8.5 years old.
Again, for example VW uses a galvanized metal, hardly high tech, or earth shattering. This allows it to offer a 12 year rust through warranty, which is one of the highest in the industry. Combine that with a TDI (higher mileage engine) and hopefully this will conspire to let 500-1M miles happen on this platform.
I have an American car whose make up is mostly non ferrerous metals and the body is "plastic fiberglass" (actually STP, but you might get lost in the technical description)
There are advantage both of diesel and hybrid vehicle. combining these two technology isn't difficult task according to Toyata prius formula with advance diesel engine.
I believe compact or midsize hybrid diesel car should be able in market in near future. One easy target in MPG should be close to 100mpg.
With some compromise in the enviroment issue, this kind of vehicle may meet current emission standard.
I do hope I can afford to buy one. Sharing some idea with you.
Regards,
Johnton
Another thing to keep in mind is that a very large percentage of the US population lease their cars. Since they are leased, they're given minimal maintenance and their longevity is suspect given their lack of care. I hate to say it, but in our lifetime we will NEVER see people keeping cars for a millions miles or 20 years. Ain't never gonna happen. Beyond engine longevity, diesels are going to have to offer a lot more bells and whistles before the US population embrace them.
quote-Beyond engine longevity, diesels are going to have to offer a lot more bells and whistles before the US population embrace them.-end
Every diesel vehicle available is being embraced. Demand has been greater than supply for diesel vehicles since 1996. No problem exists selling diesels.
Exactly what bells and whistles are you referring to?
Bells and whistles like the Prius has. A TDI Golf is a nice car but quite boring. Give me the 1.8t anyday. Discounted over the TDI and a heck of a lot more fun to drive (esp with the chip!!).
http://articles.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FJN/is_6_34/ai_6- 0086974
What bells and whistles like the Prius has?
DVD entertainment systems and big wheels and tires are popular with the public. I do not see hybrids with dubs and slammin entertainment systems on the streets. People who find diesels and hybrids interesting enough to discuss them are NOT the majority of the population.
Seriously, hybrid v. diesel and not how long cars last. Something like that can go in News & Views.
We are getting a tad better on the sniping...let's let the last of the data-horse beating end.
My most recent high mileage vehicle was a 92 Range Rover that had a 167,000 miles on it when I sold it to a friend. It was taken off road in Colorado on a regular basis and was very well maintained. It had the original engine, transmission and driveline in it when I sold it, didn't use oil between changes and ran really well. I know a lot of Land Rovers can be problematic, but mine was a gem. It had minor issues with sensors and such now and then but outside of that it ran like a champ the whole time I owned it.
My parents used to buy a new Mercedes and keep it past 200k miles. My college car was an old 74 S class that had 240,000 miles on it when it was handed down to me. I put another 30k on it and traded it for a used BMW E36 that I put 160,000 miles on with no drama.
The key to keeping a car a long time is a good mechanic that is proactive. They know how long things last and advise you replace them at a certain mileage before you're stranded. In high mileage Mercedes and Bimmers things like the ignition switch wear out - it really wasn't that expensive to keep these cars on the road, a whole lot cheaper than trading them every 2 or 3 years.
But I'm talking about 80's and early 90's cars here - I doubt all the electronic gizmos in new cars would last 200k miles without large infusions of cash. I replaced the Range Rover with a new 01 X5 which has been very dependable the past 3 years and 40k miles - I'm about to extend the warranty and hold on to it past 100k. If it continues to hold up when the 100k warranty expires I'll keep it "till the wheels fall off".
My 03 TDI wagon has just about every bell and whistle the X5 has - power seats, windows, locks, auto climate control, leather, sunroof, airbags everywhere - it's an extremely premium little car. It's a GLS with a wagon luxury package that loaded it up with a bunch of luxury stuff.
Side and curtain airbags, cruise, power windows, locks and keyless entry, ABS brakes, etc. are standard on the most basic GL VW. There really isn't a stripped VW of any model.
Also interesting is the average age of vehicles has been between 8.0 and 9.0 years old in recent years. If average age is 8 to 9 years old then there are a substantial number of vehicles that are older than 10 years. Diesels are better suited to longevity than hybrids.
With economy being a significant portion of the appeal of both hybrid and diesel, it is inevitable that longevity/durability be discussed.
Durability is on topic IMHO for the hybrid vs. diesel topic.
What smelly car? The VW TDI's are not smelly? Mercedes E320 is not smelly.
http://www.suntimes.com/output/auto/car-news-car06.html
quote-How about a large diesel-engine Mercedes-Benz sedan with high fuel economy and none of the old diesel smell, smoke, clattery noise and slow acceleration?-
Yes, I would love to have one!
quote- Who needs a small, slow gasoline-electric hybrid car when you can get the larger, roomier and faster E320 CDI, which has an estimated highway cruising range of 784 miles with its 21.2 gallon fuel tank?
Nope, I sure don't want one of those small, slow hybrids;)
I think that both of you moparbad and djasonw are touching on the issue that is important to the majority of the buying public. When you pencil it out, it is really how much per mile you are paying unless your ride doubles as your "OFFICE". That of course can be a way different calculation. So for example, if you lease a vehicle and the monthly payments are say 345 per mo with 1000 miles contracted per month, you are paying .345 cents per mile. On the other extreme, I am shooting to duplicate my old figures of .028 cents!!! ???
There are situations where leasing cars makes a lot of sense, but for the general population- NO!
My opportunity to upgrade hardly represents a standard, in any respect... especially since I didn't take a vacation last year. I simply diverted that fun money to the car instead.
Since you don't take lifestyle into account at all, the per-mile equation means practically nothing. How often do you go out to eat, watch a movie, buy a coffee, etc.? Overall expenses means a lot, even though you imply it doesn't.
JOHN
Actually, you're both about right. djasonw is likely getting his stats from a Toyota dealer, and toyota finance currently leases about 30% of Toyota sales. This is down from about 38% a couple years ago, mainly because they adjusted residuals. They basically now give little to no residual value for options like nav, leather, etc. Overall though, leasing is closer to 10% of sales lately. Toyota has good residuals so they can be more competitive on the monthly payment.
FYI, my chevys have a hour meter so I can keep track of hours on the engine. My '03 Silverado with 6500 miles has 245 hours last time I checked. My '02 Tahoe with around 30,000 miles had 620 hours. Tahoe his 95% on the highway for trips, the truck sees a lot of short trips and idling.
The per mile equation remains just that.
So I would agree, overall expenses does mean a lot, but the truth is I have NO idea what it means in your life! Or even what they are. However .125 cents per mile ownership is a realistic gauge given this topic, unless the figures you mentioned are not realistic.
Diesel lower starting cost, equal mpg, and no worry of long term durability.
I'll agree with that.
quote from article link in my previous post-But it also has unnecessarily odd key and starting-button procedures. The cynics among us call these gimmicks, suggestions to a gullible customer that Toyota has reinvented the automobile, rather than simply improved its drivetrain efficiency.-end
djasonw -Did you say the TDI was a turtle? You must have been thinking of the Prius. quote- When we finally did get a Prius to the track, the wait wasn't over. We lollygagged around for 10.5 seconds while the car labored its way to 60 mph. It needed another 10.5 to get to 80 and, while we'd have waited all day to see 100 mph-end
I'll take that as a PERSONAL ATTACK, since all of that information is publicly available and you know it.
JOHN
while visiting my father in germany, i drove his passat tdi on the autobahn. absolutely no problem keeping up with the crowd. the great amount of torque it had was great.
we parked it outside in -20 c. no problem starting it up. I didn't notice any downsides to the TDI.
Your much more likely to find someone that is going to be able to repair your TDI than any hybrid car.
Why do you think Honda and to Toyota love hybrids? They love to be the exclusive repair facilities. For this very reason + batteries proprietary electronics, hybrids will cost a lot more to maintain.
But is cost what were really looking at? I think people just want the stigma of driving a 0 polluting car, and being able to brag about the millage they get. if cost was all we were concerned about, a used civic or la sabre would win by far.