By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
I agree your records are an accurate account of MPG. What I object to is someone looking at the little read-out, as the Edmund's reporter did with the Ford Escape and claiming 50 MPG. That is total BS, and you know that as well as I do.
That is fine as long as everyone understands it it your opinion and not necessarily Toyota's opinion.
YMMV,
MidCow
I tend to believe the magazine long term mileage reports more, the the typical Prius mileage is in the mid 40s.
YMMV,
MidCow
This is the kind of response , that indicates just the opposite that diesels are a better choice.
Just look at the new VW Passat 5-speed AUTO transmission.
I think you will start seeing more diesels not less and yes they will find a way to satisfy the US "automatic" want .
YMMV,
MidCow
I would say that is the wisest, best and first choice. I know that may not be possible. The hybrid does not seem to be the answer. According to your statements 60 million new cars will hit the roads of the world this year. Toyota will build 130,000 Prius hybrids. That is .2% of 60 million cars. If the manufacturers don't build em' we can't buy em'. There are alternatives available. They may not be as clean as the small hybrid, but they are an improvement over the millions of gassers on the road today. I say push for legislation to require ALL diesel to be low sulfur, as I believe is mandated by 2006. Then go hiking up a mountain to get some fresh air to clean out your lungs. Stay out of bars that allow smoking, that is much worse than the stuff coming out of a diesel car.
The disingenuous thing is that TDI owners or normal fuel tank gasser owners do the exact same thing with no moveable bladder and you say they are incapable of keep good records!!?? Your assumption is not only ridiculous, it is misleading; and your conclusions are apt to be FALSE!
You have also systematically ignored or failed to respond to questions about your real world experiences with Prius/s. While that is your choice, in my mind, if you were a CAR salesman; I am thinking you have a lot to sell with a lot to hide! If I were dealing with a personality like that I would consider the car purchase experience sleazy. Upshot, I would not buy from that kind of personality.
On second look at your quote, why would you want to sell a late model car 2001 with only 59-60k miles? If you had gotten 50 mpg you would have consumed 1200 gals! WOW!, it would be yours and my fantasy come true if 1200 gals (400 gal per year) of fuel consumption could save the world as we know it!? I am getting the distinct impression that you think the more you repeat the mantra that it will make it happen!? If that is true it is delusional at best!
The TDI, on the other hand will only be starting to be fully broken in at that mileage.
Also what did you pay for it and what did you sell it for? If the prices are so secret, you can give the depreciation per year %'s or total ownership depreciation %'s. But something tells me you will not give a truthful answer to this very simple set of questions.
___Boy do these forums get convoluted with stuff
___Nuclear plants. Sure, 99.99% of the pollution from a particular plant site sits in a deep pool of water with an area less then the size of an Olympic swimming pool for ~ 20 - 25 years worth of electrical generation. No C02, no CO, no NOx, no HC, no PM. Emissions of a coal or NG plant. Well, you breathed it including more radio nuclides then you will ever breathe from a release at a Western based nuclear plant site to date. Even TMI was nothing thanks to the containment structure. Chernobyl and the Russian based reactors? Damn things don’t even have a containment structure let alone core designs that mitigate instability on normal ramps!
___And the many green peace types that block the path of reprocessing and such are causing more havoc saying that renewables and BEV’s are the answer. Renewables couldn’t make up squat on a percentage basis with today’s grid pricing and capacity. Not only is it not always reliable, it is much more expensive to purchase. Ask how many actual green thinking citizens here in the country aren’t connected to the grid, don’t purchase their fuel from the local gas station, or for heavens sake, are meeting EPA estimates in whatever automobile they drive! Yah, right
___In regards to BEV’s, does anyone here have a clue as to how much power is available from every electric generation plant in the US if they were all online producing at a 100% capacity factor? Not 2% of the power equivalence of all the automobiles sitting in the drives and parking lots of the entire US let alone what that 2% runs already including electric stoves, heat, lighting, computers, motors and furnaces for production of whatever, and every other damn thing you can think of Start grid charging a few tens of thousands of automobiles and see what happens to our already shallow spinning reserve. The (2) major Blackout’s of the East coast over the last 30 years will be child’s play by comparison.
___And on to tank capacity and mileage John1701a just happens to be right on this one. Sure the bladder is causing Prius II owners all kinds of fits in tank over tank calculations but traveling thousands of miles on a given amount of fuel as calculated from the pump and the odometer will give you within a few tenths to hundredths of actual mpg.
___Hhhmmm, what else? I already posted links to the University of Wisconsin’s Future Truck Challenge diesel entry meeting SULEV spec’s. We shall see what will be available once LSD/ULSD arrives here in the states in 2006 What more do you want?
___Costs When the average Hybrid costs $3,000 + (HCH or Prius II?), $5,000 (Escape Hybrid?), $6,000 (rumored cost premium for the RXh?) more then a std. ICE counterpart, the average US citizen will probably take the non-Hybrid almost every time given the premium cannot be recovered in fuel cost savings alone (broken record time again ). Say what you will about being green, PZEV ratings only cost a few hundred $’s on most every V6 or below made, not the thousands of dollars of premiums for a hybrid as listed above. Makes me sick just thinking about it but the average Joe doesn’t know enough about this issue to make it a reality just yet. Ford, Toyota, and Honda have this capability already locked down but take a look down the list of emissions from each and every model The Toyota Sequoia and Land Cruiser stick out so bad as to make any Toyota lover take pause if they even had a clue.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
The above seemingly pedantic quote is almost totally eclipsed by the fact that urban areas: like Boston, NYC, SF, CA again sorry if I left out your favorite) are almost total resource gluttons. This is also exacerbated by the fact that some of these cities own and operate the resources and resource rights that on their consumption level costs them little to nothing!!!
Not to pick on SF, CA but it just spend literally BILLIONS of dollars to upgrade the front of the aeroport and access by light rail to the aeroport! Yet the actual runways which usage and traffic and safety dictate 4 to 8 runways still has only two. Sort of like saying on the front side this is a super international transportation hub and only having a rural two lane access!!!!
For me I have to take his word at his actual mpg. However he is using this seemingly "correct" calculation as a battering ram to say that gasser and or TDI owners can not calculate their mpg. So not only is he incorrect in his assumptions or conclusions but he is spreading false information.
He all has but called for "certified" spreadsheets. Well Enron had certified spreadsheets certified by a big 8 (or whatever it has dwindled down to)accounting firm!? So for all I know he could be a former Enron accountant!
YMMV,
MidCow
>that have been spread here!
>JOHN
That door swings both ways. Hybrid-Electics have good qualities and bad qualities. Diesels have good qualities and bad qualities.
To point out only the good qualities of hybrid-electrics and only the bad qualities of diesel, while factually correct, provides a MISCONCEPTION of the overall LONG-TERM big picture.
YMMV,
MidCow
I think it is particularly telling that they are not in wide use as taxi's. This would seem to be an almost "no brainer" market. If any profession could amortize a Prius (and even market its advantages) , it would be (taxis) the conveyance for hire profession. The marketing value of making "non" car owners feel like super elitist environmental royalty should be worth it alone!
___In regards to calculating fuel economy tank over tank and such I do the same but beating one up for not doing so is a disservice. That being said, if you do not calculate your fuel economy tank over tank, how do you really know what you are receiving year round? On the other side of this, the Prius zealots here are not even meeting EPA estimates, let alone exceeding them.
___Those that think they are “holier than thou” green can write all they want about being green but if they want to make a real difference, they should at least be meeting EPA estimates in whatever they drive. This includes not telling others how come there car is so much worse imho. I can be guilty of this as well (ala “Up to the chore” thread) but if someone is making an effort to beat EPA estimates no matter the car they drive, they have already succeeded in cleaning up the air by a far greater margin then someone else who purchased a PZEV by trading in the SULEV that they used to own.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Two thumbs up for fair and balanced!
I still contend mid 40s is much more realistic.
YMMV,
MidCow
That is *NOT* what I said.
I actually stated that they DIDN'T BOTHER to.
At no point did I use the word "incapable". It was a comment about them simply not being interested in maintaining a spreadsheet.
> why would you want to sell a late model car 2001
The old one lacked the safety features I wanted... side airbags, side curtains, HID lights, secondary lights, and VSC brakes.
And of course, it is a hatchback... which is far more practical than a sedan.
JOHN
However, Diesels seem to do best both performance-wise and miles-per-gallon-wise in a MANUAL transmission form. This is primarily because the torque comes on at fairly low RPM (1800) and the maximum rpm is also fairly low ( typically 4400 to 5000 rpm).
Will Toyota revamp the HSD system to utilize a MANUAL transmission if and when they decide to provide a Diesel Hybrid ?
It almost seems like a "mild" hybrid like Honda's IMA is better adapted to a Diesel-Hybrid scenario.
YMMV,
MidCow
However, Diesels seem to do best both performance-wise and miles-per-gallon-wise in a MANUAL transmission form. This is primarily because the torque comes on at fairly low RPM (1800) and the maximum rpm is also fairly low ( typically 4400 to 5000 rpm).
Will Toyota revamp the HSD system to utilize a MANUAL transmission if and when they decide to provide a Diesel Hybrid ?
It almost seems like a "mild" hybrid like Honda's IMA is better adapted to a Diesel-Hybrid scenario.
YMMV,
MidCow
I also get the feeling that even with "fuel miser action" of careful to EXTREMELY careful, that even some one like John can't do the EPA rated 51 highway 60 city. under "real world" conditons! (again folks do not construe this to being pejorative! It is NOT!)
I wish I had kept the link to the longtitudinal Boston Massachusettes study that measures the air quality. The basic concept it emphasized (I think like three years ago) that air quality was actually in the green!!!??? This was of course pre Prius in any sig numbers not to mention any measurable difference due to them!
It is. Atkinson cycle is also known as 5 cycle engine. The fifth stage is the back-flow when the mixture of fuel and air flow back into the intake manifold.
Volume wise, it is 13:1 but due to the back-flow, the actual compression ratio is 9:1.
Dennis
Sorry to go off topic for a sec, but this is also subjective.....a HB if far more practical than a sedan....to YOU. My sedan is for more practical than an NSX (two seat, mid engine) to ME. OTOH, my Expedition is far more practicle than your Prius (as far as HB vs sedan goes) to ME.
"The old one lacked the safety features I wanted..."
This is a reason for trading a perfectly good, three year old car with less than 60K miles on it that I can stand behind and agree with.
"It was a comment about them simply not being interested in maintaining a spreadsheet."
And why should I keep a spreadsheet? Do I get a tax credit for keeping a spreadsheet? NO I check it tank to tank and I keep a running average...I know where my average is, and if the vehicle starts to deviate to far from that average, I know that there is something amiss. I said before that I am not trying to impress anyone with my spreadsheets, or lack thereof.
I average 44MPG combined in my TDI, I average 14MPG combined in my Expedition (and its all time 4WD), and my wife averages 22mpg in her Galant ESV6 (I generally fill it for her...with the premium it requires due to high compression).
"...diesel supporters have admitted that they couldn't care less about NOx (smog) emissions..."
If YOU truly cared about NOx...especially since you live in an Urban area...you would purchase an EV such as them GEM http://www.gemcar.com/, heck you can get one fully loaded for $13K and then get a $3K tax credit on top of that. Then you wouldn't be contributing AT ALL to the NOx levels which would help combat what I AM contributing.
And it will only cost you an extra 13-20k to set up a solar panel system to 1. get you "off the grid" 2. or set you up as a power producer instead of consumer 3. Produce at higher rates and consume at lower rates!
Last month's MPG average was 53.7 MPG, which is clearly within EPA estimates.
Your claim that I don't drive "real world" has no basis whatsoever on fact. It is just a sad attempt to discredit & distract, by making it personal and not focusing on the HSD design.
JOHN
That is yet another MISCONCEPTION.
For much of the nation, electricity is created by coal. That means overall NOx emissions from an electric vehicle are actually *HIGHER* than my AT-PZEV Prius.
And the stupidity of this topic is that a GEM has a top-speed of only 25 MPH, no heater, and no safety options.
JOHN
Perfect for your Urban "Stop and Slow" traffic you mentioned earlier...
"...no heater..."
Heater/Defrost option $395
"and no safety options."
Well, it has to meet NHTSA specifications before it can be driven on the highway...
"For much of the nation, electricity is created by coal."
So spend less time watching TV and futzing on the computer while you're charging your EV...or go solar...
"And the stupidity of this topic..."
I thought it made perfectly good sense, especially given what you have claimed as your driving environment, but once again you go into ATTACK mode and now you've added insulting to you repertoire...
I think you may have your numbers a bit skewed on the actual amount of NOx coming from a coal generating plant. I think you will find that they generate electricity much more efficiently than the engine in your Prius thus less pollution. There have been great strides made in scrubbing the exhaust out of the coal genrerators. I will do more research on the subject as I still think it is a better way to go than all these other options. I have looked into the solar panels here in San Diego. At this time it is like the Prius you cannot justify it on cost savings alone.
___As for real world real world fuel economy of Hybrid’s and non-Hybrid’s alike, the following might be of interest to many
http://www.greenhybrid.com/compare/mileage/
___Clearly within EPA estimates? 47.9 mpg is clearly not within EPA estimates. I hope you make it to at least 50 but 55? That amount wouldn’t make the Hyper mileage list over at Greenhybrid with the mileage you have received to date
___IIRC, PZEV ratings were derived from the emissions of the US’ Coal/Nuclear/NG/Solar/Wind electrical generation mix from a few years ago so no, NOx being higher is incorrect. The Coal and NG plants are getting cleaner every year and the extra amount of Wind generation isn’t enough to move those numbers in the least The PZEV std. is actually dirtier then the equivalent energy generated for a pure BEV in today’s environment.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I wish they would have posted that on their website....been thinking of aquiring one for golfing (links package and 'Turf' mode) and day to day errands.
So I guess it would make it impracticle for even urban "stop and slow" traffic....but that wasn't part of John's argument.
Even more Misconceptions!!!
To achieve the large numbers on the window-sticker, the temperature must be a minimum of 68^F. Since virtually all of my driving was below that threshold, your comment does nothing but mislead.
The ACTUAL EPA estimate statement about Prius is as follows: "Actual Mileage will vary with options, driving conditions, driving habits and vehicle's condition. Results reported to EPA indicate that the majority of vehicles with these estimates will achieve between 51 and 69 mpg in the city and between 43 and 59 on the highway."
JOHN
But from what I can understand and possibly project, the 2006 low sulfur diesel standards structually romove the impediments that caused the ban in the first place. It might make CA reconsider the ban on 2006-up on new TDI sales in CA!! This to me would be a huge YIPPEE! Of course this would probably deflate the premium I can get for the 2003 VW Jetta TDI!
The French don't have the batteries of lawyers that we have, yet it's still economically infeasible to run a profitable business either running nuclear power plant or reprocessing plant without billions of government subsidy. The fact is that reprocessing makes no financial sense compared to mining more Uranium, unless the goverment is interested in the Platonium, for either making nuclear bombs or for preventing nuclear profiliferation (MOX fuel); if it's the former, we usually call it a "rogue regime" (unless it's one of US, Russia, UK, France and China; now also India and Pakistan); if it's the latter, you have to wonder why produce Platonium to begin with? Platonium is the inevitable result of fissile nuclear power generation; it's a short path to a nuclear bomb (very small critical mass), and it's the most toxic substance known to man, and no processing can destroy it, only seperating it and concentrating it. The nuclear waste water and sludge from reprocessing plants take decades to "cool down"; the whole time the liquid pose tremendous occupational hazard as well as theft risk.
But in answer to you proposal, I think diesels would help solve the foreign oil depencence problem , but not the pollution problem. Hybrids, while fuel effcient, cost anywhere from $2500 to $5000 more than Gas ICEs. Apparently , more people are interested in Hybrids , then jst environmentalists, but there is a battery shortage which limits the number of vehicles to less than 1% of total. It is hard to wag a 99 pound dog with a 1 pound tail.
YMMV,
MidCow
What the above statement fails to mention is that the pool is very deep, and the 99.99% number (where is that number from anyway) is only sustainable because the toxicity of that radioactive sludge totally dawrfs any other forms of pollution and risk (excepting the risk of direct hit on plant by air liners). The liquid at reprocessing plant is highly concentrated in Platonium Nitrates; a gallon of the stuff can kill an entire city of millions if let loose into the reservoir water (takes only a few parts per billion to kill human beings). The liquid has to sit in reprocessing plant for more than a decade to cool down, during which any natural or man-made error or theft can cause leak. West Valley reprocessing plant in New York state and its atrocious environmental record was not exactly a page of Russian history.
CARB now effectively bans new passenger diesels with it's emmissions regulations. Is it working? It is if you are selling used TDI's. It is working if you live in the 45 states that enjoy the passenger diesel vehicles. More diesels for us.
What next for CARB? Will they mandate hybrids?
quote- For the time being gas-electric hybrids -- or even diesel- electric hybrids -- don't make a lot of economic sense, in GM's view. The system's additional cost means that the automakers must subsidize sales of passenger vehicles to motivate enough customers to buy them. -end
Maybe hybrids are the next EV1. quote-General Motors's EV1 battery-powered electric car was a $1 billion mistake, one the current management can't afford to repeat by trying to outdo Toyota just to prove a point-end
Hybrids an interesting curiosity was one quote of Robert Lutz of GM. Apparently diesel must be an interesting curiosity also since GM offers no high mpg small or midsize cars.
quote- Lutz also argues that it doesn't make economic sense for consumers to pay several thousand dollars more for hybrid cars that get up to 30 percent better fuel economy.-
Paying $1,000 more for a diesel makes sense. Paying $3,000 to $7,000 more for a hybrid does not.