Hybrid vs Diesel

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Comments

  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > If a person is very concerned about the air. They need to move close enough...

    Your point is pointless, since it only applies to first-person.

    If I want to reduce *YOUR* emissions, I want an option to do that.

    Hybrids offer a solution of that intent. By me supporting them, seeking out those that want one now, a configuration pleasing to you will emerge later. We all win.

    Forcing people to change is pretty much futile. Offering a solution that they find appealing, yet still solves the problem, is a dramatically more effective approach.

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If I want to reduce *YOUR* emissions, I want an option to do that.

    You have solved very little with the Prius it still dumps tons of pollution and uses non-renewable resources. I consider my sister a true environmentalist. Whatever University (from Washington to Beijing) she is working at, she rents an apt. close by. She is 50 and has never owned a car. She rides her bicycle. I let her preach at me because she lives what she preaches. You are polluting more than the guy in the Hummer that only drives 4-5k miles a year. If you dump 3 tons of CO2 by driving 15k miles per year or you dump 3 tons driving 5k miles per year who polluted the most. That is the point. A guy in a Hummer that drives 3 miles to work is not as big a polluter as the guy that drives 20 miles to work in a Prius.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    You can't make that argument as you have to use the same ratio. The bottom line is the Prius is the LEAST polluting mass produced vehicle on the planet. If John drives 15k miles per year and the guy in the Hummer drives 15k then who is polluting more?

    It is virtually impossible for everyone to live within a few miles of where they work. I happen to work near JFK Airport. Ain't no way in hell I'm moving to Jamaica, Queens.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I can and will make that argument. It is very valid. You choose to drive whatever distance it is to your work. Not anyone else. If you are driving a Prius you are polluting less than if you were driving a Hummer. You are still more of a polluter than the guy that says, OK I'll live in Queens and use less fuel and pollute less. You don't have a good argument for long commutes, especially with one person in a vehicle. Long commuters are the problem whether they drive a Prius, Jetta or 1 ton truck.
  • tom21769tom21769 Member Posts: 63
    "You have solved very little with the Prius it still dumps tons of pollution and uses non-renewable resources."

    When Hollywood has people imagining it is more glamorous to drive to the Oscars in a Prius than in a limo, that's progress. Perhaps not as much progress as riding bicycles to work. However, more people will embrace the change if you offer a practical alternative, then make it seem sexy or fun, than if you preach from examples that nobody thinks they can follow.

    Hats off to your sister though.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Do you want fries with that? :)

    Sorry bad diesel joke!

    Reclaimed deep fat fry oil from restaurants such as McDonalds etc can be processed into bio diesel at app .60 cents a gal!

    http://www.journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_mike.html
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    My sister would appreciate that. I agree with your analogy of the Oscar crowd. I am afraid the Hollywood crowd (with a few exceptions) will only drive or ride in a Prius for a photo-op. Personally I think it is a great vehicle for places like Los Angeles. They need all the help they can get. I just don't like the elite powers that be dictating what we can drive with out any fairness to the rules. If someone wants to drive a Jetta TDI in CA and the laws are skewed to eliminate a certain group of vehicles, while allowing other vehicles that are higher on the EPA polluters list. I call foul. That is what is happening to the industry. We are being fed what a few people want us to have. Then making it hard to get so they can overcharge. If we had an abundance of choices of economical cars in all sizes as in the EU. I don't think this Prius shortage would be an issue at all.
  • john1701ajohn1701a Member Posts: 1,897
    > Long commuters are the problem

    Really?

    There's actually a very serious flaw to your assumption/accusation.

    Try looking at the big picture.

    By living farther from work, I live spitting distance from everything else!

    Having the family, friends, grocery store, retail stores, bank, indoor entertainment, and outdoor entertainment (bike trails) just outside my homes doors saves a ton.

    Not everyone can live near both. Being closer to them than work is far more effective, especially since the drive to work is so efficient anyway.

    Your comment is also extraordinarily vague. What does "long" mean? Do you mean distance, speed, and/or time?

    JOHN
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    John,
    You are good. I appreciate your attention to detail. You have your act together even if we don't agree on politics I like you.. Let's put it this way. In 1968 I was commuting 12 miles and got tired of the long fight with traffic in San Diego. I applied for a job in Alaska with RCA. They hired me and took me to Anchorage. I was located very close to the communications building avoiding traffic on my way to work. I liked it. It had nothing to do with the cost of fuel or pollution. It was the fact that I was wasting my life away on the freeways in San Diego. I see so many people spending more than 10% of their life driving back and forth to work. There has to be a better way to live. What did you do for entertainment all those years of commuting before you had the Prius with all it's fancy high tech gear? Do you see where I am going?
    To some people the time alone on the highway listening to tunes is their time. That may be a valid argument. I would rather be sitting on my patio sipping a drink watching the Orioles and humming birds or planting another tree. I can sleep at night knowing I did a little bit to fight pollution.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosconsumer/0406/23/g01-192164.htm

    Which hybrid would compete against the VW Touareg TDI? The new Lexus SUV hybrid?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    http://www.lacar.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&s- id=249
    quote -In terms of greenhouse gases, diesels are among the lowest emitters.-

    Interesting viewpoints.
  • pusterracingpusterracing Member Posts: 186
    "I am afraid the Hollywood crowd (with a few exceptions) will only drive or ride in a Prius for a photo-op."

    One exception is Leo DiCaprio who owns and drives an Insight I believe (or atleast he did a few years ago, maybe he's in a Prius now, who knows).

    I still prefer my TDI, no mateer who is driving what, it is what I prefer.

    Just thought I'd throw that little info out there..dunno why.
  • oldboyoldboy Member Posts: 59
    Thanks for the links, Moparbad. Now I KNOW that I want a Passat TDI! Also I found it interesting that the Toureg TDI actually BEATS the vaunted Dodge Hemi from 0 to 60. So much for diesels being too slow! Toureg is too expensive though, at least for me.

    I think it is really a shame, even disgraceful, that CARB will not allow the VW TDIs to be sold. These are NOT the polluting diesels of yesteryear. For CARB to allow 3/4 ton diesel SUVs and trucks, which definitely pollute more than the TDI, is discriminatory to say the least. Clearly they would not be doing it if the TDIs were being produced in the USA, as the diesel SUVs are. I only hope that CARB will come to their senses once we get ULSD across the country, in two more years.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    Leo drives a Prius now. Not sure what year. I still prefer my '04 Prius. Even though I have to drive 20 miles to work its quite enjoyable. Gagrice thinks that we should all live near our offices. Maybe in the next world we will. If you lived in the NY Metro area you'd know thats impossible. At least I'm burning a lot less gas than the guy commuting in his HUHUMHUM mobile.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    "Gagrice thinks that we should all live near our offices. "

    I also think that if one can, one should also! The fact is there are way too many roadblocks against it! On that note, I think the governments should remove the strutural impediments that it keeps in force. For example if one looks at the results, in the west anyway only 20% of the city's population live and work in the city. 80% come from far to surrounding cities. There are a host of things that come together to make that happen. So if the cities set goals to improve this ratio, (they dont want that to happen for a host of reasons) it would go a long way to making that happen. I myself have business that is 1.5 miles from my house. But I figuratively had to move heaven and earth to make this happen. Before, the commute was 22 miles R/T. So I have gone from 5808 miles to 792 miles per year miles. I used to go INXS of 7 x more mileage. More common in this region is a 50 mile R/T or 13,200 miles yearly comute. The obvious nexus is that it would structually decrease the daily, monthly, yearly, miles.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    Just imagine if ALL the people that worked in Manhattan, lived there too. Logistically it is impossible. We owe this madness to the way our society formed in this country hundreds of years ago. I would love to hop out of bed and look forward to a 2 or 3 mile bike ride to work. I used to work in Manhattan, but now work in Queens so I am one of the lucky ones that has a 30 minute commute. We can ALL make an impact if we drive more fuel efficient vehicles to work. I don't care what it is, but something is wrong when ONE person commuting to work drives a 3 ton SUV and gets 11 MPG. Now.. back to our regularly scheduled Diesel vs Hybrid.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    If the nexus of this thread is decreased energy usage, I think you can see that you still have a structural need for most of it! Not to pick on you personally, but I wanted a personal example to make this semi relevant. Since much of the world can recognize NYC, which is on the east coast, and San Francisco, which is on the west coast hopefully we can find middle ground at some point.

    Here in the area where I live it is actually against "the laws" to be energy independent. To convert to solar would cost between 13,000-20,000 dollars, given the tax breaks of 4500 per system and a monthly G/E bill of 75 dollars BE would be app 9.5 years.

    Basically the concept is to have a solar system with app 2x the max need with or without batteries to either store or sell back to the power company excess energy. With this system I would actually be a net net net (NNN) energy "producer"

    If I combine making biodiesel at .60 cents a gal my TDI with 520 gal a year usage would now be 312 dollars or 26 dollars a month! I also would be providing businesses with a viable service and cost savings! There are definite laws against energy independence!!! :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Which hybrid would compete against the VW Touareg TDI?

    I'm not sure it has one, unless one of the MB SUV models. I sat in the Toureg when I was at the dealer to test the Passat. The seats are very sports car like. I kind of think the V10 TDI is overkill for most people. It is just a big engine, more fit for a truck than sport utility. I am sure there will be people go for them. If they were 200 lbs heavier they would qualify for the tax write-off.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The rule is 6k GVW!!!! Without consulting an accountant I am thinking it qualifies?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You are right. I was thinking of the Toureg alone @5800 #... GVW includes all the kids and dogs. If I was going to spend that kind of money I believe I would go for the MB E320 CDI. What a car that is.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    An interesting article on the Toyota diesel engine. Another choice we are not given in the US. No wonder the EU is not raising a stink about the lack of Hybrids over there. They have plenty of choices. If horses did not pollute so much with their gas we would be forced to use them as our only transportation.
    http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/profiles_html/t/toyota/page1.ht- ml
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I'm not sure if the Toyota Yaris is big enough for two people to fit in. It blows the Prius mileage out of the water.

    http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/profiles_html/t/toyota/page6.ht- ml
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    "I'll make a very simple statement: The Toyota Yaris D-4D is a staggeringly good little car. I'm well aware that after winning the 2002 J.D. Power Customer Satisfaction Survey the Yaris needs no help from me. But I'm afraid I'm going to rave about it anyway. I have never driven another car that could happily tootle along at 80–90mph, nip past obstructive drivers in old-shape Merc CL500 coupes, and still take me 63 miles on a gallon of diesel. Even the radio got perfect AM reception on the fringes of LBC's transmission area. This is the sweetest, most economical little diesel your money can buy".
    full review
    http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road_tests/?id=52
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    "with the Corolla diesel achieving 48.7 mpg on the combined cycle."

    So why would I want to get a Prius hybrid at 27k when a diesel Corolla (I am guessing since it is not sold in the USA, 1200 premium) for 13.2-15.2k?

    Might be a real good reason Toyota will only import the diesel versions if other OEM's are eating their lunch in this sector!?? This disparity in price (27k Prius vs 13-14k Corolla) has already created a market opportunity for Honda, which has also introduced the Civic hybrid! http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/honda/civic/100344093/prices.html- ?tid=edmunds.n.mipmake.popular.num2.1.honda* @18867.

    The flip side being, if I can sell a 27,000 dollar product @ higher profit, why should I sell a 14k product at lower profit that directly competes with it!!???
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Is there any profit to be made on hybrids by manufacturers? If there is then why are the production numbers so low?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Let's see, if I did my UK's B #'s sterling correctly, $1.8188 B#'s S(yesterdays close) this 63 mpg TOYOTA costs (USA) 15.3k-22.5k MSRP!!!!!!!!! ( so purely as a guess, 12.5-18.5k at invoice) So with #2 diesel being at 1.59 and gas at 1.97, we are talking a per mile fuel cost @.025238. vs .0394 cents per mile, hybrid?(36% cheaper than the Prius) Do you want to hazard a guess that the BE figures are also lower? Do you think I would relish getting 50 mpg on my TDI Jetta, when I can get 63 mpg in this Toyota 22% better than either gasser hybrid and TDI Jetta? And most models , cheaper to boot? :)
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Robertsmx said:
    >Horsepower is the end all.
    >Unless Prius has better power
    >to weight ratio going uphill
    >compared to Camry, it won't
    >perform as well. Thats the bottom
    >line. Torque won't do anything
    >if there is little or no power.

    Did you know:

    Horsepower = [ T (ft - lbs) x N (rpm) ] / 5,252.113121

    T= torque

    Horsepower is directly related to Torque

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    If my TDI had the (hp/)TORQUE values of the Prius, trust me, I would not get the TDI! But as it goes the figures are 90hp/155# ft with the 2004 being 100 hp and 177# ft.

    Perhaps Robertsmx misunderstands both the theoretical and practice application/effects of the formula of which you speak?

    Torque is EVERYTHING!!! For example on a triple digit weight motorbike 100 hp/82 torque is a rocket ship!? Why because of the power to weight ratio!!!!

    Again this torque to weight ratio is another reason why a diesel hybrid would be a better combo than the gasser hybrid combo all things being equal! So it would be easy to calculate what the torque to weight ratio has to be with the lower torque of the gasser to BE with a diesel hybrid., or if that is not changeable the weight loss necessary for the gasser hybrid.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think you hit the nail right on the head. When no one is competing in the market why undercut your cash cow. Those UK prices may include a large import duty also. I don't know how the UK treats import vs homegrown, what little they have. I think it would be even worse for the person that travels to Europe and sees and drives these high mileage vehicles and cannot entertain the idea of owning one.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Did you notice the Previa getting combined 39.2 mpg and the Land Cruiser getting 34.4 mpg on the highway. Those are vehicles that are on the market tested and in use. Not some promise for the future hybrid this and hybrid that. We are being used and abused by the auto makers and the regulators.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    When a car comes into the USA from Euro and or Japan (or really where ever) I have read that the duty is app 25% So us USA buyers get used to a BMW or Toyota etc costing X , but that is seamless to us in that we dont really see the 25% differential or X- 25%= a lesser priced Y. When a model becomes a hit, say like Honda Accord/Toyota Camry/ MB320 etc capital investment to reap price X or 25% more is set into motion in that those very same cars made in the USA are duty free! If anything capital investment in USA plants makes TAX credits and incentives etc come gushing forth.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I just did a quick comparison between the RAV and the Escape. They seem to be comparable vehicles. The RAV is built with a diesel that gets a combined 39 mpg. The hybrid Escape that has been promised and not delivered, that I have heard of. Only gets somewhere between 23-30 mpg, who knows for sure. Again this is a future vehicle at this time. The RAV with diesel is being built and sold to people just like you and I. Only not on US soil.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Our regulators and also environmental types can seem to be be highly disingenuous as they ratchet up the rhetoric about lessening our dependence on foreign oil or using less to prevent crisis etc yada yada, as they lower the draw bridges to keep those very same Euro and Japanese and even big three oem cars!! that get the fantastic mileage out of the USA!
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    I really don't understand why the Prius beat the TDI in various passing manuevers if the TDI has better performance.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    ...at least in the short term. Why not rally and send some letters to the manufacturers. Complaining and bitching on Edmunds will not bring your dreams to fruition.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I am not aware of the tests that you are referring but at the speeds the TDI cruises at I have not been passed by a Prius! :) But I shall certainly keep a sharp eye peeled. :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I am not complaining or bitching! It is a factual balance to the hybrid shrills! :)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The only contest that should truly count is the amount of time and money spent at the pump. If you want performance a Porsche will leave the Prius and TDI far behind.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Upon further investigation I am inclined to believe the article I put on the forum was referring to Imperial Gallons. That would make a decided difference in the MPG posted in that article. The 74.3 MPG for the Yaris would in fact only be 61.6 MPG US. I was so excited. 38.4 MPG US for a Previa size van is still an accomplishment. Sorry for misleading the forum.
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi All:

    ___I don’t know if most know this or not but the Euro spec fuel economy numbers are ~ 10 – 20% more generous then those of the US EPA’s. Add in the Imperial gallons and you can see how it is nice to look at extra urban numbers as high as has been linked but in comparison to the US’ EPA, they are a bit more down to earth. Still great mileage but not nearly what you would think when viewing the manufacturer’s web sites is all.

    ___Good Luck

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    I believe Dennis posted a recent article about a few daya ago. I was surprised and the numbers seem way too much in the Prius favor.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    That's why I am buying a motorcycle for the weekend. 0-60 in 3.9 seconds.
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Again this torque to weight ratio is another reason why a diesel hybrid would be a better combo than the gasser hybrid combo all things being equal!

    IMHO, the electric motor is an equalizer for tiny gas engines to effectively deliver the torque of a heavy diesel engine. An electric motor can deliver its maximum torque at 1 RPM. What turns into electricity charging the battery is rated power output (ie. horsepower). As the electric motor and especially batteries (or fly wheel/hyper-capacitor, whatever the energy storage device may become) get more efficient, the ICE gas engine can get very small and high revving for maxmum power to weight ratio (torque will be provided by the electric motor). Eventually the tiny gasser ICE itself probably get replaced by a fuelcell in order to get rid of NOx altogether. In comparison, the NOx problem with diesel is unavoidable simply because its a result of high temperature combustion (which is also the source of diesel engine's high relative thermal efficiency compared to SI einges.) That's the bigger picture; that's why I figured I will skip the first generation hybrid SUVs, and contented myself with my recent Highlander purchase.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    I had a chance to do a 30-70mph acceleration test with my TDI this morning, using the stopwatch on my cell. To recap an article above, they concluded:

    The Prius was quicker accelerating both from rest to 60 mph and from 30-70 mph during a simulated pass."

    "The run to 60 took the Toyota 10.7 seconds and a second longer for the VW."

    "The passing gap was wider: the Prius went from 30 mph to 70 mph in 10.7 seconds (a coincidence) while the more sluggish Jetta required 13.6 seconds to accomplish the task."


    With my TDI tuned similarly to the european TDI's, I turned the 30-70 in 8.95 seconds.
  • djasonwdjasonw Member Posts: 624
    You have a stick with a chip. That may explain it. Most people with autos don't mod their TDI's. Chips do AMAZING things to turbocharged cars. I mentioned I had a chip in my auto audi allroad and had to remove it because it made the car too difficult to drive. It was fun for a week but WAY too sensitive. Regardless, a TDI is NOT in my immediate future mainly because the auto version is too lethargic.
  • oldboyoldboy Member Posts: 59
    "Do all those interested in diesel live in the US? If so, is there some secret market for reduced sulfur diesel about which I am unaware? My understanding is that this won't be available until at least 2006."

    BP & Arco stations in California and Chicago Metro areas currently have low-sulfur diesel (30 ppm) available at their pumps, and they are working at getting it across the U.S. In two more years it should be available everywhere, and down to 15 ppm. Once this is done, diesels will have catalytic converters and scrubbers (as they do in Europe), and emissions are expected to meet even CARB standards! Even now new VW diesel cars are quite clean using EGR, and they meet federal emissions standards.
  • ratbert1ratbert1 Member Posts: 72
    "The flip side being, if I can sell a 27,000 dollar product @ higher profit, why should I sell a 14k product at lower profit that directly competes with it!!???"

    make up the margin on volume, greater marketshare, more $$ from service, etc.

    I just got back from Madrid and was VERY impressed with the number of diesels there. It really seemed like 75% in the city. Even saw a diesel Dodge Caravan. The biggest surprise was a VW Golf TDI WITH 4-motion AWD. That's like my dream car. The only way that I knew the Volvo I rode in was diesel was by the feel of it (TORQUE!) and that the tach redlined at 4500 with 2000 being where I'm used to seeing the 3000 point. To hear the "diesel" sound I had to walk to the front of the car and listen carefully. sweet. Ford, MB, Volvo, Citroen, Peugeot, Seat, VW, Skoda (VW), BMW, and probably more that I can't recall, all had diesels on the road.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I also am not ready for hybrids prime time. Especially since there is not yet a diesel hybrid. I think the major draws are 1. better gas mileage over normal cars such as Camry/Accord 2. environ snootiness. 3. status 4. image. I truly think that 5- 10 years in the real world will be a good test for a fair number of folks and those that test to see how it does during the years and miles that it is designed to do.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    Actually, the automatic in '99-03 TDI's (the '04 is a PD with a tip tranny that's yet to be heavily modded) takes mods better than the manual. The clutch can only handle so much (i'm more than at the limit and just awaiting destruction to upgrade) but the auto is very stout and capable of much higher amounts of torque. Couple guys I know of are pushing mega mods through them with no problems. There's also a mod for the tranny to increase line pressure which tends to make a big difference as well. Not sure what's up with the PD and tip trannys, haven't seen many mods for them yet. Course the manual is typically always faster/efficient than the autos anyway. I have to wonder if the hybrid systems find there way into more sporty/drivers car if they'd offer a manual? Granted the Jetta is no sports car, but it's certainly well above average for anything in the fuel efficient class.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think an interesting statistic would be the percentage of respiratory problems in the EU countries compared to the US. It has been mentioned that diesels cause respiratory illness that gas cars do not cause. I think the truth would show the US Health problems, are caused by our lifestyle, not the air we breath. The truth is the best means of transportation is all electric charged by Nuclear power. Too bad we cannot even get that right. Pretty bad when the French and the Japanese use mostly nuclear without any problems. I do wonder where they hide the waste...
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