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Comments
I guess following John's rational, 180,000 over three years is not enough to draw any conclusions about MPG?
Might be true in the summer. How about in the winter when home heating oil is in high demand?
Dennis
I am sure much higher than ICE only taxi. Otherwise, why would he get another HSD?
"I guess following John's rational, 180,000 over three years is not enough to draw any conclusions about MPG? "
The point was not to draw MPG conclusion but rather durability of the battery pack under the worse condition. Imagine how many miles a HSD will drive on the highway with less recharge cycles? Two times? Three Times? That highway answer can not be obviously concluded yet but you can get a picture of how it will look like.
Dennis
I am not sure you are reading the same article that was posted. He was the one making the point about the rated mpg. Again:
The question remains, what was the mpg?
Are you referring to ULSD with less than 15 ppm Sulfur. If so it is available in almost every state. BP ECD-1 is in many ARCO and BP stations. I have a SOCO station 1 mile form my house that sells it.
I don't think you would see the animosity towards the hybrid vehicles if there was not an elitist view of those that own a hybrid. Todays technology is in tomorrows land fill. I have a warehouse full of computers that are less than 8 years old. I cannot give them away. They are considered toxic waste to the landfill people. I just don't want to see throwaway cars. I am NOT saying the hybrids are a throwaway car. Your interesting article on the Vancouver cab driver addresses longevity. That is the kind of information people need to make an educated decision for or against the hybrid. I am curious what kind of mileage he got using the Prius as a cab.
I guess we are not on the same page. I thought you were responding from the link that I posted on msg#971 regarding battery durability on the highway.
Dennis
I guess you are right. I should of use "widely available".
"They are considered toxic waste to the landfill people. I just don't want to see throwaway cars."
Prius is not a throwaway car nor toxic. In fact, it was designed to be highly recycleable with easy to dismental parts and the use of bio-plastics.
Dennis
Almost 95% of Prius can be recycled.
The plastic inside is a special environmentally-friendly formula too.
JOHN
Wouldn't it be better to stick to the "odds of failure" aspect instead?
From a mechanical analysis, HSD is less complex overall than either a traditional gasoline engine or a TDI. HSD is a elegantly simple.
From a computer analysis, solid-state electronics are typically thrown away in perfect working order. They rarely ever fail. And since traditional vehicles are loaded with computers too, what's the point?
JOHN
With HSD, you can still do regular maintence like oil change, coolant change, tire rotation, windshield wipers, etc... on the things that wear out due to mechanical process. Electrical parts are much more reliable and maintence free. As for, fixing, troubleshooting with computer code is much faster and accurate than the usual "guess" or "instinct" mechanical work.
Dennis
If you dig deep down in HSD technology, improvements are not only in the drivetrain but also through out the whole car. This gives better mileage even on the highway along with extra refinement, responsiveness and comfort. I would say HSD is underrated because many people overlook those or just plain refuse to acknowledge them.
Dennis
my only complaint is it's relatively anemic power when merging onto freeway. It seems to take a very long time, especially when the whole family is inside. To me this lack of responsivelness presents a possible danger, as a lot of vehicles had to brake and go around me.
I like the fact that I get about 44.4 to 45.3 mpg. But think also the car is a little under armoured . Perhaps make airbags (side and curtain) standard equipment ?
hiya , rukes !!
For someone who does little driving, a gasoline car may make sense, as they are often cheaper to buy. For those who live in crowded cities and are concerned about pollution, hybrids seem a good choice. And for those who live elsewhere and drive a lot, and/or tow trailers, diesels make sense.
For now a lack of battery packs is limiting production of hybrids, but this will improve in time. There remain unanswered questions about the durability and hence the resale value of hybrids, and we will have to wait and see.
As for diesels, they have a reputation for durability and a record of proven resale value. They do pollute more, but when we get ULSD more widely available in mid-2006, this should be taken care of. Perhaps by then the CARB states will drop their irrational ban on small diesels.
So really what it all boils down to is a matter of personal preference. Personally I am leaning towards the diesels, but I can wait two more years. By then we will have a clearer picture. My two cents, for what it's worth.
When it comes to cars, I would bet on a very large portion (99%??) are being recycled. Yeah, there are still some bone yards with old cars sitting around, but that's not really the rule these days. I have a friend in the salvage business and his newest machine will completely shred a car. Most of the good parts have been pulled (alternators, starters, glass, etc) before he gets them. Sticks the car in and it comes out the other end all sliced and diced ready to be sent to a recycler to seperate the materials. Big money in it.
Wow. I can see how this cost thing perplex's some folks here.
Another feature of bad high-sulphur rot-gut fuel. I've noticed the low-sulphur, high cetane, water clear, BP Surpreme I've been using doesn't have the odor of normal diesel. Normally the pump handle is very clean where I fill-up, however last week it was a big dirty. However, the smell left on my hands was less than a normal gas pump. The good fuel doesn't have that crude oil mess with it. All hail ULSD 2006!!
It doesn't actually. If you are the kind of person that prefers engine sound & vibration, that system is not for you. It is very much on the luxury side, where silent & smooooooth are more important.
> Perhaps make airbags (side and curtain) standard equipment?
Federal law will require *ALL* vehicles to have them standard. I believe it begins with the 2006 model year.
JOHN
"Highway mileage was practically a tie 43 mpg in the Jetta, 44 in the Prius."
"The Prius was quicker accelerating both from rest to 60 mph and from 30-70 mph during a simulated pass."
"The run to 60 took the Toyota 10.7 seconds and a second longer for the VW."
"The passing gap was wider: the Prius went from 30 mph to 70 mph in 10.7 seconds (a coincidence) while the more sluggish Jetta required 13.6 seconds to accomplish the task."
"One category where the hybrid Prius defiantly and victoriously flashes its taillamps at the Jetta is exhaust emissions."
"Skinny tires proved to be the Prius' Achilles' heel in braking and cornering tests. The Jetta stopped 20 feet shorter from 70 mph (172 versus 192 feet) and was able to corner better."
Jetta comes with 195mm and Prius comes with 185mm wide 15" tires. Geez, 10 millimeter difference makes the Prius tires skinny?
http://www.cleveland.com/search/index.ssf?/base/business/10877346- 48278220.xml?banew
Enjoy the whole article!
Dennis
Diesel a viable alternative to hybrid?
If you dig deep down in HSD technology, improvements are not only in the drivetrain but also through out the whole car. This gives better mileage even on the highway along with extra refinement, responsiveness and comfort. I would say HSD is underrated because many people overlook those or just plain refuse to acknowledge them.
Dennis "
I think you mis understand what you proport to understand. I have made it no secret that the diesel hybrid would be my first choice if and when hybrids came with them. For as much as you say folks misunderstand hsd, the fact of the matter is part of the combination is still a unleaded gas engine. Diesels all things being equal have on the order of 37% better fuel mileage. Part of that reason is better thermo efficiency.
Two other points. 1 Our perspective is different, for we pay a paltry 2 dollars per gal vs 4-7 dollars a gal in Europe 2. it is much harder to so called "save fuel" when structurally the diesel uses 37% less fuel and is less than 1% of the population vs Europe where the diesel population is almost 45%.
So if we oooh and ah over 51 H and 60 city, I would tend to agree 70 H 82 city would be better, with the probable added benefit of almost double the torque!
I've had cockpit time in a stock automatic TDI (a couple weeks) and it takes some time to learn how to interact with the transmission. I was commuting 40 miles of two-lane twisty when I was driving the auto TDI and was doing a lot of passing. I quickly learned that flooring the pedal delayed acceleration by a big figure. Once the TDI crossed about 3800rpms, the forward motion drastically dropped off but the tranny will keep the motor planted upwards to the redline. Letting off the throttle will cause an upshift and the car will shoot forward again. Basically I learned to give just enough throttle to drop the tranny one gear (or maybe not at all if speeds were above about 60mph) and it would pass much quicker. Once I learned this, I felt the passing power was comparable to my Camry V6, particularly going up a hill. The diesel just eats hills like they aren't even there.
Comparing my modded 5-speed to that automatic isn't even fair. Too bad I never find a Prius driving willing to run at any speeds. There for awhile I was passing one every night on my way home, driven by a lady that looked to be in her 70's. If I drive that slow in another 20 years, somebody shoot me.
Comparing my modded 5-speed to that automatic isn't even fair. Too bad I never find a Prius driving willing to run at any speeds.
I am also amazed at how Prius owners tend to steer FAR away from this!"
While there is nothing wrong with going 55 mph and under on the freeways....
A good test of this would be a 245 mile one way trip (490 RT)from pretty close to sea level to 6330 altitude, San Jose to Sparks, NV, 3 hrs with a 15 min nature break. 42 mpg up and 49 mpg back for an average in 490 miles of 46 mpg. It would be interesting to hear a report from a Prius owner driving the exact same route.
Not accurate. Atkinson cycle used in Prius has a peak thermal efficiency of 38%. VW Diesel engine peak thermal efficiency of 43%. The difference is 12% advantage for VW diesel. The automatic tranny and belt driven accesseries in the Jetta eats up about 15% so, Jetta will always come out about 3% short in efficiency.
"Our perspective is different, for we pay a paltry 2 dollars per gal vs 4-7 dollars a gal in Europe"
I thought we both live in the US.
Dennis
That's the thing with diesel engines. The "usable" RPM range is so narrow that it needs a transmission with more gear ratios that are closely set. There has been more refinements done in the modern diesel engines though.
Dennis
"Our perspective is different, for we pay a paltry 2 dollars per gal vs 4-7 dollars a gal in Europe"
I thought we both live in the US."
If you compare a diesel Jetta to a gasser Jetta, the order of difference is as I have indicated.
I do! Do you? Or do you enjoy being prickly for prickly sake?
I paid 2.09 for # 2 diesel this weekend (gas being 2.23). I'd sure like to pay LESS (1.59) as they do in the state of Georgia!
If you drive under the speed limit on the freeways you are a hazard to yourself and everyone else. Use the surface roads. Freeway drivers should stay with the flow of traffic. From the time they hit the on-ramp until they exit.
A good test of this would be a 245 mile one way trip (490 RT)from pretty close to sea level to 6330 altitude, San Jose to Sparks, NV
I wonder if Toyota and VW would let me take a test drive from San Diego to Las Vegas to get real world driving experience. I would sacrifice the time to do it.
We already pointed out that EPA report that clearly stated NOx (smog) emissions will increase with the use of biodiesel."
The October 2002 EPA study I read the other night showed a sharp drop-off in in HC and CO emissions under biodiesel.
Yes, the same study did show an increase in NOx, but the curve was relatively shallow.
So I am not moved to conclude any differently than I did before, that with LSD + vegetable oil in B20, emissions should compare "relatively well" to the hybrids'. I'm not sayiing they'll be better or even equal, just that a TDI will not be such a smoggy car in the scheme of things I'd avoid it if it otherwise seemed a better choice for me.
>and its fuel economy in real world highway driving appears to EXCEED the hybrids'
"Feeding this misconception is not a good idea. ...
A Jetta TDI vehicle that "doesn't require shifting" gets slightly lower than a equally sized HSD vehicle, like Prius. So whenever someone tries to generically use the term "hybrid" and not mention they are comparing to a manual, we are going to point out the misleading comment. Please be more specific next time. "
I did not intend to feed a misconception.
The only Jetta TDI I am seriously considering buying is a manual transmission car.
The various reports I've read (which are fairly anecdotal, not carefully controlled scientific studies) seem to indicate that the Jetta TDI, manual trans, gets better mileage in mostly highway driving than the Prius. I'm thinking in particular of a USA-TODAY article (June 10, 2004), which reported 38mpg for the Prius vs. 44 mpg for the Jetta TDI on trips between Detroit and McLean Va. The article does not seem to state what transmission was in the Jetta, but the author did say its 44 mpg performance was "on the nose for the car's highway fuel economy rating." I believe 44 mpg would match the EPA rating listed on Edmunds.com for a Jetta sedan with automatic. So I would expect the spread to be even greater (favoring diesel) between a manual transmission Jetta and a Prius (CVT). I'm not so sure about the Civic Hybrid with manual transmission, but I believe its EPA highway milege is the same as for the Prius (51), and nothing I've read indicates that number is not also overstated.
If you prefer a car with automatic, sure, the picture changes, as John is right to clarify. I'm not so sure it would change enough for me to ignore a long wait and price premium to buy a Prius. You have to look at the whole picture and what features are most important to you.
I also would agree! Based on the going rate of 27,000 for a Prius, not to mention a waiting list of (I have heard) of up to 6 mos to having stopped taking orders, perhaps a better opportunity would be 2 each Corollas or Civics at 12-14k per!?
I have nothing against folks spending close to double while exercising their first amendment rights.
I'd have to pull some mods to make it fair, i can turn 0-60 in 8.5 seconds. I would compare the hill climbing ability of my TDI to my previous V6 Camry. I know I can take the steepest grade on the WV turnpike and accelerate from 70mph to 100mph in 5th gear with minimal effort. Did it this weekend, slow-pokes hogging three lanes......grrrrr.
Maybe that is true. Still, it appears that the HSD's comparative fuel-economy advantage against a modern diesel does shrink (at least) in mostly highway driving. Elsewhere in the forums, I cited a recent USA TODAY report showing a Jetta TDI (apparently w/automatic trans) at 44 mpg vs. a Prius at 38 mpg on a road trip between Detroit and Virginia. Is that report flawed?
As for the complexity issue, I'd like to learn more. It just seems to me that a car with two power plants, a gas engine and an electric motor, and everything involved in supporting them, must be more complex than a TDI. For example, does the TDI's catalytic converter add more cost and complexity than an HSD's battery pack?
Is the manual transmission available in a TDI Jetta much more complex and costly than the Honda or Prius CVT? Does the direct injection system in a modern diesel translate to a more failure-prone, less durable engine? I've read over and over that diesel engines can run many hundreds of thousands of miles . Do the TDI systems change this?
YES, THE REPORT IS FLAWED!
The computer is never off by that much. We have tons of data to support this.
It said 51.7 MPG, yet he calculated only 38 MPG. That is clear evidence that there was a tank filling problem. (The bladder inside will skew at-the-pump measurements.)
Realistically, he actually got upper 40's for MPG, not upper 30's.
We did a 1,200 mile side-by-side-by-side comparison between a Jetta TDI and 2 classic Prius 2 summers ago. All right next to each other the entire trip. Both Prius beat the TDI by several MPG. And that was the old version of hybrid!
2 days ago, I cruised from the Twin Cities to Rochester and back in my 2004 Prius. (Starting with a freshly filling tank of gas.) That 65 MPH mostly-highway 175 mile trip resulted in a reading of 52.8 MPG on the display. That is dramatically better than the reporter got.
JOHN
Not to steal your thunder but the Toyota Corolla gets 38 mpg!?
Then you can apply the same (il)logic to diesel advantage over gasoline. Diesel has less advantage over Otto cycle gas engine on the highway or other partial load situations.
" does the TDI's catalytic converter add more cost and complexity than an HSD's battery pack?"
Diesel catalytic converter and after-treatment particle filter have only one purpose, that is to trap and lower emission. Battery pack in HSD has three or more purposes. 1) To achieve zero emission. 2) Increase performance when requested. 3) Increase efficiency by avoiding ICE inefficiencies by "caching" energy. As for the price, currently, the battery pack is more expensive but with more "usefulness".
"Is the manual transmission available in a TDI Jetta much more complex and costly than the Honda or Prius CVT?"
Prius Planetary E-CVT is so integrated into the drivetrain that it is impossible to point out which is the transmission. TDI requires a separate hardware for a transmission. Why compare manual tranny to CVT? Automatic transmission are very complex and costs about $1,000.
"Does the direct injection system in a modern diesel translate to a more failure-prone, less durable engine?"
Yes, if you use biodiesel as the fuel causes black carbon build up on the injectors. Until biodiesel is standardized, they don't recommend that you use it. Good luck, if and when you need to replace the 23,000 psi fuel injector.
"I've read over and over that diesel engines can run many hundreds of thousands of miles"
The engine will last but will other components? How will the engine performance degrade after all those hundreds of thousands of miles? How will it affect it's emission?
Dennis
1. higher to no BE
2. 40-58 mpg realistically
3. diesel/hybrid would be the best combo but the higher cost/price of both would probably force up the BE. but if the 37% diesel hybrid better than gasser hybrid can become a reality then again that would drive down the BE.
4. some utility for me is that this and other threads have really made me have to confront and to put into perspective how expensive it is to own, operate insure, and maintain cars.
Let's say he should have reported upper 40's, not 38.
That would be very close to EPA of 51.
So why do so many people seem to be complaining
about overstated mileage claims for hybrids?
Is it just confusion about the Prius with its tank bladder issues, no questions about the Civic Hybrid at all?
Or are folks obsessing over a couple of mpg?
Then there's another report , in Sunday's WASHINGTON POST, showing the new Ford hybrid SUV at only 23 MPG highway ( just a little better than a non-hybrid Hyundai Santa Fe).
If HSD is really 40% more efficient than ICE-only, why didn't the POST reviewer come up with better numbers? Was that report flawed too? Or is it just Ford's use of the technology, in that vehicle?