"As engines age, a natural deterioration process occurs wearing out the injectors and degrading the fuel atomization process. The result is unburned, wasted fuel coming out of the tailpipe in the form of diesel particulate emissions."
"As the vehicle aging process continues, drivers unknowingly sense the loss of power and compensate by doing the worst thing possible -- they give it more gas. This generates more emissions and wastes more fuel, creating a vicious circle of waste."
I guess replacing the aging diesel engine will not be as easy as replacing a 99 lbs battery pack to rejuvenate efficiency.
"Ford hybrid SUV at only 23 MPG highway ( just a little better than a non-hybrid Hyundai Santa Fe) If HSD is really 40% more efficient(on highway) than ICE-only, why didn't the POST reviewer come up with better numbers?"
You are comparing Escape hybrid real world 23MPG versus Santa Fe EPA 22MPG numbers. EPA number for Escape hybrid should be around 27+ MPG. If you want to look at it the other way, Santa Fe's real world highway might be 19 MPG, 15% less than EPA.
Cross-posted in the Prius discussions...but for those of you looking at the TDI and comparing it to the Prius, here's your chance to talk to the press about it...
A reporter is hoping to interview anyone who has recently considered a Prius. He wonders what your shopping experience was like, what you paid if you bought one, what you cross-shopped, what you bought if you went for another vehicle, etc. Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com by Tuesday, June 22, 2004 with your daytime contact info and anything you'd like to share.
I couldn't care what anyone gets. Why? What counts is what I get. I am now averaging 50.8 on this tank when I filled up 200 miles ago. My YTD mileage is 46.7 and that is a mix of suburban and highway driving. I average 70-75 on the highway. I am achieving these numbers and contributing as little as possible to our air quality problems. Can't do that in the TDI (at least until 2006/7). My friend in Jersey has a manual TDI and is averaging 43 in mixed driving.
I don't think the USA-TODAY report was flawed. Yes, the reported might have miscalculated the MPG manually, but, what doesn't change is the fact that is cost him $7 more dollars in the Prius to make the return trip. That is a FACT and is not open for discussion.
Which goes back to my point...emissions aside...the TDI is a more COST EFFECTIVE vehicle than the Prius (or Civic Hybrid for that matter).
Tha AVERAGE HYBRID driver is only seeing around 45-48mpg, as reported by customers angry with their hybrid mileage all over. You guys might be getting 50+ 60+ and 70+, but you are in the minority getting that mileage, and you should be VERY HAPPY that you are getting that mileage.
I average 44MPG in my TDI...if I bought a Prius...for $5500 more and was still only getting 47MPG average with fuel that costs (in my area $0.25 per gallon more) on average $0.20 more per gallon, I'd be upset because it is costing me more money to drive the vehicle. Then there is the unknown with the batteries. Oh yeah, and I only need (1) oil change @ $45 for every (3) @ $20 in the gasser/hybrids.
My motivation was saving money when I bought this vehicle, and I achieved that with diesel over hybrid.
"Yes, the reported might have miscalculated the MPG manually, but, what doesn't change is the fact that is cost him $7 more dollars in the Prius to make the return trip. That is a FACT and is not open for discussion."
Sure it is open for discussion. His calcualtion is off by 27% that of reported by the computer. If you go with the computer, he should of only spent $21($29 x 0.73) on gas with Prius. The fact that he spent $29 on gas could mean that he filled up more gas than it was from the start of the test. Again, it is inconclusive!
"Then you can apply the same (il)logic to diesel advantage over gasoline. Diesel has less advantage over Otto cycle gas engine on the highway or other partial load situations."
You are still left with a fairly big fuel-economy spread between comparable gassers and diesels for mostly-highway driving. Yet the cost spread is not necessarily so great. For example, the price-to-purchase difference between a Passat TDI and gasser (with otherwise same equipment) is just a couple hundred dollars. The price difference between a Civic Hybrid and non-hybrid is maybe $3k. The price premium on a Prius appears to be even greater right now, though it's harder to tease out just how much of that to attribute to HSD.
"As for the price, currently, the battery pack is more expensive but with more "usefulness"."
But the diesel already has a performance and efficiency advantage, compared to to a gas-burning ICE, built into the engine. So you could say it does not need the "triple" usefulness of the battery pack. It may need a more complex and costly emissions-control system, because it gains performance and efficiency at the expense of more smog. However, I wouldn't expect the the cost and complexity of that to approach what the battery pack and extra motor add (?).
Ignition system maintenance is reduced in a diesel, right? Exhaust pipes should last longer. Oil changes are less frequent. The engine and emissions controls may be beefier and more costly, but for the most part you are beefing up components that are already there in a gas engine, not adding an entire additional motor and energy system. So I don't see how the hybrids are simpler.
"Why compare manual tranny to CVT?" Because manual tranny is what I like to drive. And the Prius is not available with manual transmission. So I'm wondering if there is there is something so revolutionary about its CVT that having it makes the tranny system cheaper, less complicated, better-performing, and more reliable than it would be with manual transmission, or than a Jetta diesel's manual transmission system. I don't like paying extra for something just because it's more "advanced". OTOH, if a diesel's manual transmission really is much more costly or failure prone than a gasser's, that would concern me, maybe even push me more toward the Honda Civic Hybrid with manual t.
"The engine will last but will other components? How will the engine performance degrade after all those hundreds of thousands of miles? How will it affect it's emission?"
From what I've read elsewhere, the degradation of a diesel engine tends to be much less steep than a gasser's. And the current hybrids are still saddled with the latter, in addition to the paraphenalia of a secondary electric motor system. It sounds like that motor does allow some other components to become mechanically simpler, cleaner, more reliable. But as the expensive battery pack grows old, you'll approach the efficiency and performance of the unassisted gas-powered ICE. Meanwhile the diesel engine has lost relatively little of its benefits, with fewer oil changes and no tune-ups. As for the "other components" (especially transmission) , I'd like to hear more.
> So I'm wondering if there is there is something so revolutionary about its CVT that having it makes the tranny system cheaper, less complicated, better-performing, and more reliable than it would be with manual transmission
That's what Dennis and I have been trying to point out all along.
It is revolutionary!
The PLANETARY-CVT is only the size of the palm of your hand, consisting of only a few simple pieces.
The PLANETARY-CVT is permanently engaged, no shifting whatsoever... which means a very significant reduction in wear.
The PLANETARY-CVT is composed of parts virtually identical to a differential... which is an extraordinarily reliable device, that rarely ever fails.
No one has challenged my contention that in the first 100,000 miles I stated that the Prius will cost LESS to operate than the TDI. It is clearly evident that the TDI can not even approach the city/suburban numbers folks are getting with their Prius (50 plus in the city!). Combine the advantage of the Prius that idles without its engine running keeping the occupants COOL with the electric a/c. While the TDI is in traffic (sitting still) it is emitting a great deal of soot and NOx etc.
I am really tired of hearing the battery issue. It sounds like a broken record. The battery is warranted for 100,000 period, so don't even calculate that in the equation. Seven years from now, those battery modules will be MUCH less than what they are now. Prius owners also enjoy free maintenance for the first three years (my dealer does this, though a few don't).
Lets not forget the winter time where it takes a bit longer for heat to generate in the TDI v. the Prius. Lastly, an intangible is the geek factor that I absolutely LOVE about the Prius. STEALTH MODE. Definitely can't do that in a TDI. LOL!
My turn, Why is there little mention of the high compression gas engine in the Hybrid's? I would assume it will also wear out somewhere along the trail. And doesn't it have a catalytic convertor also? With the inherent life of the gas engine vs the diesel engine I would think that should be a factor in this whole equation. Everyone is worried about batteries and I got a feeling this is a pretty high revving gas engine we are dealing with.
"The price premium on a Prius appears to be even greater right now, though it's harder to tease out just how much of that to attribute to HSD."
True, a lot more people found out about HSD and are already in the line waiting, so Prius will likely cost more than MSRP. MSRP between Prius and Jetta TDI is about the same, Once the supply catch up with demand, just that Prius is more high-tech and refined. But then VW is redesigning it for 2006 or 2007 also. I heard that VW will stop selling it for 2005.
"But the diesel already has a performance and efficiency advantage, compared to to a gas-burning ICE, built into the engine. So you could say it does not need the "triple" usefulness of the battery pack."
Diesel engine does not have efficiency advantage in the city driving conditions where battery pack offer extra efficiency to HSD.
Equivalent(1.5KWH) capacity household consumer electronic rechargable NiMH batteries can be bought for $630 today. Even though they don't have the same recharge cycle as HEV batteries, you can guess how much HEV batteries can cost once mass production kicks in. HEV battery modules also have temperature sensors as well, so they will always cost more than household rechargables.
"I'm wondering if there is there is something so revolutionary about its CVT that having it makes the tranny system cheaper, less complicated, better-performing, and more reliable than it would be with manual transmission, or than a Jetta diesel's manual transmission system."
Yes, E-CVT(different than mechanical CVT) is free because it comes with the drivetrain. Yes, simpler because all there is, is the drivetrain and reduction gears. Yes, better performing because it is permanently engaged and response time is within milliseconds, either upshift or downshift. Yes, more reliable because you never need to change the clutch(because the lack of it).
This unit contains ICE, Motor/Generator 1(replacing starter and alternator), 50kW Motor/Generator 2 to provide 295 lbs-ft torque, and E-CVT all in one simple package. In contrast, look how complex automatic transmission is below.
At the same costs of a Toyota Corolla, TDI, the answer is no question to maybe! If all you are saying is what is the operating costs i.e. highest average mpg is the winner then yes, to maybe, but the Prius owners will not cop to reality, either range of mpg or what they get, etc etc.
So if I get 50 mpg at 1.59 vs 50 mpg @ 1.95, we have hear some Prius folks say this is inconclusive!!????? To me turning it to cost per mile, then you can start to include all variables or focus only on a few. So in the above case the first is .0318 per miles vs .039 per or 18.5% more. (For the math challenged what this means in English is : to get the same .0318 the higher priced fuel has to get app 62 mpg vs the 50 mpg.
I have also gleaned from this and other threads and 5 hrs of Prius 2004 cockpit time, that if I drive the Prius like I do my TDI Jetta which gets from a low of 42-51 mph (epa of 42/49) (with no real fuel misers cap on) that the Prius will fall short of the 51 H 60 city EPA. If I really think about it, all I really want to know from a practical point of view is: given how I drive or wish to drive what can I (or anyone else for that matter) reasonably expect? So my hat is off to the folks who do the extreme mileage 60-70-80-90 mpg! As for me I don't need a new advocation shrill for the hsd/Prius (but if I were given a Prius to tool around in like a lot of Hollywood types) or new hobby (fuel miser) that might change when I get over the fact I can travel with the TDI at autobahn speeds and still get between 42/51 mpg with NO special effort!!!!!
"I got a feeling this is a pretty high revving gas engine we are dealing with."
Honda S2000 gas engine rev 10,000 RPM. HSD engine uses Atkinson cycle 13:1 compression ratio. The redline is at 5,000 RPM. Believe it or not, the higher the compression ratio, the more efficient the engine is.
I have driven 4 cars in the last ten years that have had 130,000 or more miles on the clutch, and I have never replaced any of them. Clutches are not like they used to be. They seem to last the life of most cars these days. I have a truck right now that has almost 140,000 miles, and the vehicle is 14 years old. Let's see how many of the hybrid battery packs make it 140,000 miles and 14 years without replacement.
Electronic parts don't fail very often, huh. The failure rate of each part is probably extremely low, but with a far greater number of electronic components in the Prius, we will see over time what the failure rates are. Ever had a PC fail on you due to an electronic failure?
Quit bringing up one Prius used as a cab in Canada. That is one data point and is basically worthless. I knew people who drove Vegas and Chevettes 300,000 miles with no major failures. Do those single data points make those models as a whole great reliable cars? Why don't you give me the confidence interval for battery life on that single data point?
"Sure it is open for discussion. His calcualtion is off by 27% that of reported by the computer. If you go with the computer, he should of only spent $21($29 x 0.73) on gas with Prius. The fact that he spent $29 on gas could mean that he filled up more gas than it was from the start of the test. Again, it is inconclusive!"
No...the COST will not change. Let's assume that he WAS getting 51 MPG...that means that he was paying $2.35 for gas (28/11.9). So if what you guys are saying is correct, he filled the tank with 8.87 gallons of gas and thought it was full (someone said earlier that they thought he only put in 9 gallons) would have cost him $20.84...but would have only gotten him 452 miles at 51mpg (the low fuel warning came on at 422 miles...makes since, and 422/11.1=38), only he still had miles to go before his destination....so he filled back up to regain that deficit of 3.03 gallons to make his destination...which that extra 3 gallons to make it (on one tank) cost him $7.12 more.
You can't have it both ways, either it cost him $28 because he was getting crappy mileage, or it cost him $28 because he was getting good mileage and that's the difference in the price of the fuels.
If I insisted on paying rubber prices on my diesel fuel (or any fuel for that matter, they will for sure will take me to task and/or haul me to the pokey!!
Not sure what kind of vehicles you had with that good of a clutch. I bought a new Toyota 4 cylinder PU in 1994. The clutch went out at 12,000 miles and the stinking dealer said clutches are not covered by warranty at Toyota. It cost $900 to replace. As you can guess that is part of my distrust of Toyota.
Hi Folks... it seems we have a very nice banter going on. I want everyone to know that though I do own an '04 Prius, I definitely will entertain the idea of TDI ownership. I won't do it now because of the issue of the emissions. Sebring has mentioned that he is able to purchase reformulated diesel and has had excellent results with it. I actually am thrilled (yes thrilled) that there IS a viable alternative to the Prius. I am the type of person that has ZERO tolerance for premature failure of major components of any car. If I do, I get it fixed and sell it. I had a 1995 Chrysler Sebring that had the transmission go at 12k. After the warranty repair I immediately traded for a 1996 Audi A4 which I kept for four years (LOVED that car). VW makes great cars but their dealers SUCK and they have more than their fair share of lemons. I view Audi as the same co. as VW and have NEVER had a problem with my Audi or VW (had a Cabrio). I want to see a TDI Jetta wagon with a CVT that can get to highway speeds similar to the way the Prius does (even better). I'd like integrated NAV, Toyota reliability, Smart Entry, and that's about it. I also would like to get a minimum of 45 city. I'd buy it in a NY minute.
"You can't have it both ways, either it cost him $28 because he was getting crappy mileage, or it cost him $28 because he was getting good mileage and that's the difference in the price of the fuels."
Does it ever cross your mind that Prius' expanding/contracting bladder gas tank throw off your basis of claim? You are assuming that the tank holds exactly amount every time. Does it even make sense to pay $2.38 for a gallon of regular unleaded gas? The highest that went up here in NY is $2.29.
"Not sure what kind of vehicles you had with that good of a clutch"
I had a 1991 Nissan Sentra (1.6) that in 192,000 miles had one replacement clutch. The car (which I sold to a friend a few years ago as a knock about) now has ~213,000 miles on it and is still on clutch #2. So it can be done.....dunno with these heavy torque loads on the TDI's, but I know it CAN be done in the right circumstances. I'm betting on 90-100K for mine....as I'm pretty hard on the clutch..and brakes for that matter.
"You are assuming that the tank holds exactly amount every time."
So what you are telling me is that ALL there is to go on in a Prius is the computer...that there is NO WAY to manually calculate MPG because you never know how how much capacity was used in the tank..excuse me...bladder, from fill-up to fill-up?
So...what you're saying negates John's numbers....."calculated-at-the-pump"...because really, how can he calculate it at the pump if the "bladder" doesn't hold the same amount every time?
"And here's the calculated-at-the-pump results of the 13,830 miles (so far) driven with my 2004 Prius in Minnesota:
"there is NO WAY to manually calculate MPG because you never know how how much capacity was used in the tank..excuse me...bladder, from fill-up to fill-up?"
Yea, basically, it can't be accurate. If you go back 200+ post when we discuss about that issue, he already said that single tanks are pretty much meaning less. You'll need to do multiple tank to be accurate and the most accurate is the average life time MPG. You can also use flow meter to measure how many gallons went in. If you look at his calculated vs. computer reported, the error of margin is a few percents. I think the reporter screwed up big time with $8 difference in gas price.
As I've stated quite a few times now... you must measure SEVERAL tanks, rather than just one.
Measurement of a single tank is pretty much meaningless.
The only way to even remotely get accurate is to use the same pump, at the slowest speed, at the same temperature, and not topping off after it automatically clicks off.
I'll buy that. Even if you did measure it over several tanks..or 20 consecutive tanks, there is no way to be accurate as you never know how much fuel was in the bladder to begin with or what the wasted capacity of the fuel tank is after "fill-up". You'll never know the wasted capacity of the fuel tank.
Atleast I know that I am FAIRLY accurate in my calculations as the capacity of my tank doesn't vary 17% (Toyota said the Prius holds from full [11.9 gallons] to less than 10 gallons [I used 9.9 gallons]).
Given that...I too think that 27% is too large a margin of error, but even without that error 49mpg (hwy) vs. 51 mpg (hwy) I am saving every trip on fuel costs.
"Given that...I too think that 27% is too large a margin of error,"
In case you missed it, there is a much more accurate, better comparison test which I posted in msg# 1005, Solution vs. Pollution. usbseawolf2000 Jun 21, 2004 9:56am
Wow, 12k miles that is incredible. I have had a 1984 Mazda 626, 1993 Mazda 626, 1992 Mazda Protege, and the one I still have is a 1990 Mazda B-2600 Pickup. No clutches replaced on any of them, but all Mazdas. A friend recently sold his 88 Mazda Pickup with 240,000 miles and the original clutch. Hope mine makes it that long, but it will probably be another 20 years before I have that many miles on mine.
The only clutch I have ever replaced was a 73 Toyota Corolla at around 105,000 miles.
Actually I come to this thread by way of the "other" ilk! I do own a 2003 VW Jetta TDI and entertain the idea of HSD/Prius/Civic ownership. Like you, I am almost hyper sensitive to premature unscheduled maintenance!
I do like the idea of the Acura/Honda diesel products as well as the hybrid products. Also the MB E20 in diesel would be a real hit in my book.
The replacement clutch was fine till the engine croaked at 107k. I put in one of those used Japanese import engines and sold it. I think Mazda is a better vehicle than Toyota. It is all in the marketing. Sorry this is off the subject.
As is well publicized CNG is the cleanest of the hydrocarbon fuels in an ICE. I just came across this article. Now if CARB will open the doors to clean burning diesel cars, it may loosen the strangle hold Toyota has on the hybrid industry.
ECD® compared to CNG
Many independent and company trials (visit Industry Papers for more details) have been carried out using vehicles fueled by both ECD® and CNG. . In a recent independent study carried out by CARB for heavy duty transit buses, results showed that three out of four polluting emissions were lower in vehicles fitted with a catalyzed particulate filter and powered by ECD® than those fueled by CNG.
ECD® delivers the same power, performance and reliability that diesel is renowned for, while avoiding the poorer performance, lower reliability and higher operating and capital costs associated with CNG. In addition CNG has substantial infrastructure, safety and handling costs.
Source Data: CARB report 'sae 2002-01-0433'. Visit Industry Papers for further details.
The problem (and also following up your post in the Liberty diesel thread) is that until the ULSD is available everywhere, manufacturers aren't going to offer diesels with the better emissions controls. Two reasons, 1. ULSD is not available in all states until 2006 so you could damage your emissions equipment if you drove out of state and couldn't find the ULSD. 2. They're pretty much selling all the diesels they can import in the other 45 states so why bother?
The Dodge Rams with Cummins diesels were not able to be sold with the HO version of the motor in the CARB states. Cummins found a way to meet the emissions (and increase power) for the newest model (2004.5) without adding ULSD required emissions controls. Of course we're talking a much larger profit base on the trucks than most cars so it was obviously worth it for them to spend the money on development.
Not sure what kind of vehicles you had with that good of a clutch."
I have always owned manual cars. My last one was a 6-cyl dodge shadow. 142k when I sold it - no apparent wear on the original clutch. The person I sold it to never drove a manual before. It's been 3 more years and there's still no sign of clutch problems (I don't know the exact miles now).
Our Honda Accord had 200k on the original clutch and engine. We had to trash it because no shop would put it on a lift due to the severe rusting through.
In fact, the only clutch we've ever replaced was my VW beetle, and that was only because we had the engine out already. It has over 300,000 miles and only 1 replacement clutch (but 2 engines).
So I think that your experience was fairly unique.
I believe clutch wear is directly related to how often the clutch is used and HOW it's used. Drive highway miles for the life of the car and you can be assured your clutch will last a LONG time. Drive city/suburban and you are almost assured of clutch failure before 100,000 miles (statistically).
I still believe it was a defective clutch to go out at 12k miles. The replacement by Toyota was fine at 107k miles when the engine crapped out. I still bear resentment toward Toyota for that. PS I had not had a clutch go out since my old 1955 Ford PU clutch start slipping after a lot of miles.
I would also agree. On the TDI models with 5 speed manuals there is an interesting situation with the clutch. Since the motor has so much torque, (at the low end) you really dont need to "gas" it to engage. If this fact is known and practiced it reduces enormously a major source of wear-wear due to clutch engagement. I can not quantify this in anyway since clutches and their friction areas are essentially hidden.
"We are being manipulated by the manufacturers into driving what they want to sell us. Economy is not a factor."
Manipulation aside, we seem to be suckers for all sorts of gizmos and gimcrackery. I bet 90% of American drivers could sooner tell you how many cup holders are in their cars than their gas mileage. ( How many drinks do you need to have going while you're driving a car? )
It's nice that something important, such as safety, is finely getting attention. Even there however it seems to be fairly skin deep (count the airbags) instead of serious attention to the structure (a la Volvo).
The good news is, in most respects there is lots of choice and lots of information. $2000 for a NAV system, or $12.95 for a Rand McNally, it's up to you! In the case of modern diesels and hybrids, there just isn't much choice -- yet.
This is a big rich country full of talented people. We ought to be at least as self-sufficient in energy as we are in agriculture. It would be nice to have some political leadership in the spirit of JFK's "by the end of the decade, we will put a man on the moon". Our tastes, more than technology, seem to be holding us back. But events have been catching up to us and we all may be surprised how quickly everything changes for the better. None of the technologies I'm condsidering for our next vehicle would have been on our radar screen at all when we bought our last one.
yes, it is good to discuss this. I agree that it is good to have an alternative to Prius. I like the car...and have been driving it for 3 weeks...it is good, saaves gas, high tech, etc..
but what many did bring up is the possible replacement costs for the battery(hybrid) and electric engine, which should cost a pretty penny > Another thing about Prius is the initial extra cost, which makes the recouping of cost in terms of gas savings quite long. However, Prius does help the environment, and thus is a very good vehicle, and I think the industry should move towards electriccharging the engines.
Like ruking said, it would be interesting to see a electrocharged hybrid diesel....hope the auto makers start moving in that direction !!
"VW just plain doesn't ship very many here. I think they only build about 10% TDI's for the US market and that's it. Maybe it has to do with manufacturing and the european demand for them."
You can't buy them at all in CA and several New England states. Do other states cap the import numbers with air quality standards in mind?
Given my post about conventional batteries (2.5 x's longer than projected) , I would expect to see the certainty of battery replacement in one if not up to four places:
1. essentially hidden in the UPFRONT costs
2./3. scheduled/unscheduled maintenance
4. price of resale (lower than a like gasser only model) (ie less due to spectre of battery replacement.
I also would say that alternate or alternative fuels is REALLY the only way to go. I think the environmental folks who only think that using less oil will solve our "crisis" are living in LA LA land! whether you 1. Roll your own 2. grow your own (soy beans for example 3 recycle your own (burning recycled oil) 4. alternate your own bio diesel 5 use a less consumptive product such as number # diesel on the food chain, 6. others (such as hydrogen fuel cell, CNC, etc)
It only makes sense that the less the majority wants of the same product the better?
If energy-independence is the main goal, Biodiesel does seem to offer the best prospect.
Diesel engines have a proven track record in all sorts of vehicles from large trucks to luxury sedans. Hybrids are fuel efficient and clean, but when you stick an electric motor in an SUV like the Ford Escape, you're still burning a gallon of gas every 25-30 miles. With Biodiesel, suddenly your vehicle can be burning less or even NO foreign oil and the profits go back to American farmers.
To me, that advantage outweighs the NOx emissions concerns . The country could address them, too, if we channeled back all the money we're spending in the Middle East. Let those countries go back to the 12th century if they want to. Take the money we're spending on the military there and give every retiring soldier a no-interest loan to go buy a new diesel vehicle.
Off topic... but what makes you so sure KERRY will be the next president. Did you know we have Bin Laden under lock and key and he's slated to be captured Nov 1st?
Yes, maybe I've veered off-topic in mentioning politics. However, people who are keen on "green" vehicles cannot be motivated by economics alone. If your sole concern is saving money, buy a Civic HX or a Corolla.
Poilitical issues are just below the surface of all these discussions. Personally, I think the health ramifications of defending our Mid-East "allies" may be greater than the short-term increases in NOx emissions from diesel cars. Moreover you can clean up diesel emissions by putting vegetable oil, blended with very low sulphur petrodiesel, in the kinds of diesels already available in Europe. We cannot defend high levels of oil imports without stationing troops in MidEast countries, and we cannot do that without getting people killed. That's a big health hazard. Biodiesel seems to address the problem more radically than hybrids do.
The counter argument would be to quantify any public health risk associated with the predicted increase in NOx emissions under various scenarios. Maybe someone can shed light on this. If you slightly increase NOx emissions (which biodiesel now does), even as you reduce hydrocarbon and COx emissions (which biodiesel also does), in hundreds of thousands of vehicles, is the net effect likely to be more deaths due to respiratory problems? Kinda hard to measure, I would think, especially if you had to factor in the relative safety of processing vegetable oil blends vs. gasoline across the distribution chain.
Maybe. I can pump B100 into my TDI and the performance/mileage decrease is very slight. If I pump E85 into my Tahoe (which is designed for it specifically and has programming to try and compensate) I still have substantially lower power/mileage and cold-start issues.
You are right. All needs to be balanced. If a person is very concerned about the air. They need to move close enough to their work that they can ride a bicycle. It seems in San Diego that everyone lives across town from their job. No matter which direction you travel it is jammed with cars hauling one person. If the public were truly worried about NOx or CO2 they would do more than just buy a clean car. They would not make unnecessary trips. Car pool, take the trolley or bus... I could go on but you all know, that is why you are on the forum..
Comments
"As the vehicle aging process continues, drivers unknowingly sense the loss of power and compensate by doing the worst thing possible -- they give it more gas. This generates more emissions and wastes more fuel, creating a vicious circle of waste."
I guess replacing the aging diesel engine will not be as easy as replacing a 99 lbs battery pack to rejuvenate efficiency.
Dennis
You are comparing Escape hybrid real world 23MPG versus Santa Fe EPA 22MPG numbers. EPA number for Escape hybrid should be around 27+ MPG. If you want to look at it the other way, Santa Fe's real world highway might be 19 MPG, 15% less than EPA.
Dennis
A reporter is hoping to interview anyone who has recently considered a Prius. He wonders what your shopping experience was like, what you paid if you bought one, what you cross-shopped, what you bought if you went for another vehicle, etc. Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com by Tuesday, June 22, 2004 with your daytime contact info and anything you'd like to share.
Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
PR Director
Edmunds.com
I don't think the USA-TODAY report was flawed. Yes, the reported might have miscalculated the MPG manually, but, what doesn't change is the fact that is cost him $7 more dollars in the Prius to make the return trip. That is a FACT and is not open for discussion.
Which goes back to my point...emissions aside...the TDI is a more COST EFFECTIVE vehicle than the Prius (or Civic Hybrid for that matter).
Tha AVERAGE HYBRID driver is only seeing around 45-48mpg, as reported by customers angry with their hybrid mileage all over. You guys might be getting 50+ 60+ and 70+, but you are in the minority getting that mileage, and you should be VERY HAPPY that you are getting that mileage.
I average 44MPG in my TDI...if I bought a Prius...for $5500 more and was still only getting 47MPG average with fuel that costs (in my area $0.25 per gallon more) on average $0.20 more per gallon, I'd be upset because it is costing me more money to drive the vehicle. Then there is the unknown with the batteries. Oh yeah, and I only need (1) oil change @ $45 for every (3) @ $20 in the gasser/hybrids.
My motivation was saving money when I bought this vehicle, and I achieved that with diesel over hybrid.
The other side is TDI's also feel this way!
Sure it is open for discussion. His calcualtion is off by 27% that of reported by the computer. If you go with the computer, he should of only spent $21($29 x 0.73) on gas with Prius. The fact that he spent $29 on gas could mean that he filled up more gas than it was from the start of the test. Again, it is inconclusive!
Dennis
You are still left with a fairly big fuel-economy spread between comparable gassers and diesels for mostly-highway driving. Yet the cost spread is not necessarily so great. For example, the price-to-purchase difference between a Passat TDI and gasser (with otherwise same equipment) is just a couple hundred dollars. The price difference between a Civic Hybrid and non-hybrid is maybe $3k. The price premium on a Prius appears to be even greater right now, though it's harder to tease out just how much of that to attribute to HSD.
"As for the price, currently, the battery pack is more expensive but with more "usefulness"."
But the diesel already has a performance and efficiency advantage, compared to to a gas-burning ICE, built into the engine. So you could say it does not need the "triple" usefulness of the battery pack. It may need a more complex and costly emissions-control system, because it gains performance and efficiency at the expense of more smog. However, I wouldn't expect the the cost and complexity of that to approach what the battery pack and extra motor add (?).
Ignition system maintenance is reduced in a diesel, right? Exhaust pipes should last longer. Oil changes are less frequent. The engine and emissions controls may be beefier and more costly, but for the most part you are beefing up components that are already there in a gas engine, not adding an entire additional motor and energy system. So I don't see how the hybrids are simpler.
"Why compare manual tranny to CVT?"
Because manual tranny is what I like to drive. And the Prius is not available with manual transmission. So I'm wondering if there is there is something so revolutionary about its CVT that having it makes the tranny system cheaper, less complicated, better-performing, and more reliable than it would be with manual transmission, or than a Jetta diesel's manual transmission system. I don't like paying extra for something just because it's more "advanced". OTOH, if a diesel's manual transmission really is much more costly or failure prone than a gasser's, that would concern me, maybe even push me more toward the Honda Civic Hybrid with manual t.
"The engine will last but will other components? How will the engine performance degrade after all those hundreds of thousands of miles? How will it affect it's emission?"
From what I've read elsewhere, the degradation of a diesel engine tends to be much less steep than a gasser's. And the current hybrids are still saddled with the latter, in addition to the paraphenalia of a secondary electric motor system. It sounds like that motor does allow some other components to become mechanically simpler, cleaner, more reliable.
But as the expensive battery pack grows old, you'll approach the efficiency and performance of the unassisted gas-powered ICE. Meanwhile the diesel engine has lost relatively little of its benefits, with fewer oil changes and no tune-ups. As for the "other components" (especially transmission) , I'd like to hear more.
That's what Dennis and I have been trying to point out all along.
It is revolutionary!
The PLANETARY-CVT is only the size of the palm of your hand, consisting of only a few simple pieces.
The PLANETARY-CVT is permanently engaged, no shifting whatsoever... which means a very significant reduction in wear.
The PLANETARY-CVT is composed of parts virtually identical to a differential... which is an extraordinarily reliable device, that rarely ever fails.
JOHN
I am really tired of hearing the battery issue. It sounds like a broken record. The battery is warranted for 100,000 period, so don't even calculate that in the equation. Seven years from now, those battery modules will be MUCH less than what they are now. Prius owners also enjoy free maintenance for the first three years (my dealer does this, though a few don't).
Lets not forget the winter time where it takes a bit longer for heat to generate in the TDI v. the Prius. Lastly, an intangible is the geek factor that I absolutely LOVE about the Prius. STEALTH MODE. Definitely can't do that in a TDI. LOL!
Why is there little mention of the high compression gas engine in the Hybrid's? I would assume it will also wear out somewhere along the trail. And doesn't it have a catalytic convertor also? With the inherent life of the gas engine vs the diesel engine I would think that should be a factor in this whole equation. Everyone is worried about batteries and I got a feeling this is a pretty high revving gas engine we are dealing with.
In regards to the compression ratio, the TDI is on the order of 19-1.
I am sure the Prius folks will pipe in with what they know.
True, a lot more people found out about HSD and are already in the line waiting, so Prius will likely cost more than MSRP. MSRP between Prius and Jetta TDI is about the same, Once the supply catch up with demand, just that Prius is more high-tech and refined. But then VW is redesigning it for 2006 or 2007 also. I heard that VW will stop selling it for 2005.
"But the diesel already has a performance and efficiency advantage, compared to to a gas-burning ICE, built into the engine. So you could say it does not need the "triple" usefulness of the battery pack."
Diesel engine does not have efficiency advantage in the city driving conditions where battery pack offer extra efficiency to HSD.
Equivalent(1.5KWH) capacity household consumer electronic rechargable NiMH batteries can be bought for $630 today. Even though they don't have the same recharge cycle as HEV batteries, you can guess how much HEV batteries can cost once mass production kicks in. HEV battery modules also have temperature sensors as well, so they will always cost more than household rechargables.
"I'm wondering if there is there is something so revolutionary about its CVT that having it makes the tranny system cheaper, less complicated, better-performing, and more reliable than it would be with manual transmission, or than a Jetta diesel's manual transmission system."
Yes, E-CVT(different than mechanical CVT) is free because it comes with the drivetrain. Yes, simpler because all there is, is the drivetrain and reduction gears. Yes, better performing because it is permanently engaged and response time is within milliseconds, either upshift or downshift. Yes, more reliable because you never need to change the clutch(because the lack of it).
More info about difference between mechanical CVT(mild hybrid) and E-CVT (Full hybrid): usbseawolf2000 "Honda Accord Hybrid vs. Toyota Camry Hybrid" Apr 17, 2004 6:12pm
This unit contains ICE, Motor/Generator 1(replacing starter and alternator), 50kW Motor/Generator 2 to provide 295 lbs-ft torque, and E-CVT all in one simple package. In contrast, look how complex automatic transmission is below.
Mercedes 7-speed automatic transmission.
Dennis
So if I get 50 mpg at 1.59 vs 50 mpg @ 1.95, we have hear some Prius folks say this is inconclusive!!????? To me turning it to cost per mile, then you can start to include all variables or focus only on a few. So in the above case the first is .0318 per miles vs .039 per or 18.5% more. (For the math challenged what this means in English is : to get the same .0318 the higher priced fuel has to get app 62 mpg vs the 50 mpg.
I have also gleaned from this and other threads and 5 hrs of Prius 2004 cockpit time, that if I drive the Prius like I do my TDI Jetta which gets from a low of 42-51 mph (epa of 42/49) (with no real fuel misers cap on) that the Prius will fall short of the 51 H 60 city EPA. If I really think about it, all I really want to know from a practical point of view is: given how I drive or wish to drive what can I (or anyone else for that matter) reasonably expect? So my hat is off to the folks who do the extreme mileage 60-70-80-90 mpg! As for me I don't need a new advocation shrill for the hsd/Prius (but if I were given a Prius to tool around in like a lot of Hollywood types) or new hobby (fuel miser) that might change when I get over the fact I can travel with the TDI at autobahn speeds and still get between 42/51 mpg with NO special effort!!!!!
Honda S2000 gas engine rev 10,000 RPM. HSD engine uses Atkinson cycle 13:1 compression ratio. The redline is at 5,000 RPM. Believe it or not, the higher the compression ratio, the more efficient the engine is.
Dennis
Electronic parts don't fail very often, huh. The failure rate of each part is probably extremely low, but with a far greater number of electronic components in the Prius, we will see over time what the failure rates are. Ever had a PC fail on you due to an electronic failure?
Quit bringing up one Prius used as a cab in Canada. That is one data point and is basically worthless. I knew people who drove Vegas and Chevettes 300,000 miles with no major failures. Do those single data points make those models as a whole great reliable cars? Why don't you give me the confidence interval for battery life on that single data point?
No...the COST will not change. Let's assume that he WAS getting 51 MPG...that means that he was paying $2.35 for gas (28/11.9). So if what you guys are saying is correct, he filled the tank with 8.87 gallons of gas and thought it was full (someone said earlier that they thought he only put in 9 gallons) would have cost him $20.84...but would have only gotten him 452 miles at 51mpg (the low fuel warning came on at 422 miles...makes since, and 422/11.1=38), only he still had miles to go before his destination....so he filled back up to regain that deficit of 3.03 gallons to make his destination...which that extra 3 gallons to make it (on one tank) cost him $7.12 more.
You can't have it both ways, either it cost him $28 because he was getting crappy mileage, or it cost him $28 because he was getting good mileage and that's the difference in the price of the fuels.
Either way it's $28 vs $21.
Rarely. Most PC failures are the results of power supply fan or CPU fan, basically mechanical failures(aside from software).
Dennis
Does it ever cross your mind that Prius' expanding/contracting bladder gas tank throw off your basis of claim? You are assuming that the tank holds exactly amount every time. Does it even make sense to pay $2.38 for a gallon of regular unleaded gas? The highest that went up here in NY is $2.29.
Dennis
I had a 1991 Nissan Sentra (1.6) that in 192,000 miles had one replacement clutch. The car (which I sold to a friend a few years ago as a knock about) now has ~213,000 miles on it and is still on clutch #2. So it can be done.....dunno with these heavy torque loads on the TDI's, but I know it CAN be done in the right circumstances. I'm betting on 90-100K for mine....as I'm pretty hard on the clutch..and brakes for that matter.
So what you are telling me is that ALL there is to go on in a Prius is the computer...that there is NO WAY to manually calculate MPG because you never know how how much capacity was used in the tank..excuse me...bladder, from fill-up to fill-up?
So...what you're saying negates John's numbers....."calculated-at-the-pump"...because really, how can he calculate it at the pump if the "bladder" doesn't hold the same amount every time?
"And here's the calculated-at-the-pump results of the 13,830 miles (so far) driven with my 2004 Prius in Minnesota:
Oct-03__49.7
Nov-03__46.2
Dec-03__46.5
Jan-04__42.3
Feb-04__45.0
Mar-04__48.1
Apr-04__50.7
May-04__53.7
_____________________________
cold weather average = 47.4"
Yea, basically, it can't be accurate. If you go back 200+ post when we discuss about that issue, he already said that single tanks are pretty much meaning less. You'll need to do multiple tank to be accurate and the most accurate is the average life time MPG. You can also use flow meter to measure how many gallons went in. If you look at his calculated vs. computer reported, the error of margin is a few percents. I think the reporter screwed up big time with $8 difference in gas price.
Dennis
Measurement of a single tank is pretty much meaningless.
The only way to even remotely get accurate is to use the same pump, at the slowest speed, at the same temperature, and not topping off after it automatically clicks off.
JOHN
I'll buy that. Even if you did measure it over several tanks..or 20 consecutive tanks, there is no way to be accurate as you never know how much fuel was in the bladder to begin with or what the wasted capacity of the fuel tank is after "fill-up". You'll never know the wasted capacity of the fuel tank.
Atleast I know that I am FAIRLY accurate in my calculations as the capacity of my tank doesn't vary 17% (Toyota said the Prius holds from full [11.9 gallons] to less than 10 gallons [I used 9.9 gallons]).
Given that...I too think that 27% is too large a margin of error, but even without that error 49mpg (hwy) vs. 51 mpg (hwy) I am saving every trip on fuel costs.
In case you missed it, there is a much more accurate, better comparison test which I posted in msg# 1005, Solution vs. Pollution. usbseawolf2000 Jun 21, 2004 9:56am
Dennis
The only clutch I have ever replaced was a 73 Toyota Corolla at around 105,000 miles.
I do like the idea of the Acura/Honda diesel products as well as the hybrid products. Also the MB E20 in diesel would be a real hit in my book.
ECD® compared to CNG
Many independent and company trials (visit Industry Papers for more details) have been carried out using vehicles fueled by both ECD® and CNG. . In a recent independent study carried out by CARB for heavy duty transit buses, results showed that three out of four polluting emissions were lower in vehicles fitted with a catalyzed particulate filter and powered by ECD® than those fueled by CNG.
ECD® delivers the same power, performance and reliability that diesel is renowned for, while avoiding the poorer performance, lower reliability and higher operating and capital costs associated with CNG. In addition CNG has substantial infrastructure, safety and handling costs.
Source Data: CARB report 'sae 2002-01-0433'. Visit Industry Papers for further details.
The Dodge Rams with Cummins diesels were not able to be sold with the HO version of the motor in the CARB states. Cummins found a way to meet the emissions (and increase power) for the newest model (2004.5) without adding ULSD required emissions controls. Of course we're talking a much larger profit base on the trucks than most cars so it was obviously worth it for them to spend the money on development.
I have always owned manual cars. My last one was a 6-cyl dodge shadow. 142k when I sold it - no apparent wear on the original clutch. The person I sold it to never drove a manual before. It's been 3 more years and there's still no sign of clutch problems (I don't know the exact miles now).
Our Honda Accord had 200k on the original clutch and engine. We had to trash it because no shop would put it on a lift due to the severe rusting through.
In fact, the only clutch we've ever replaced was my VW beetle, and that was only because we had the engine out already. It has over 300,000 miles and only 1 replacement clutch (but 2 engines).
So I think that your experience was fairly unique.
PS
I had not had a clutch go out since my old 1955 Ford PU clutch start slipping after a lot of miles.
Manipulation aside, we seem to be suckers for all sorts of gizmos and gimcrackery. I bet 90% of American drivers could sooner tell you how many cup holders are in their cars than their gas mileage. ( How many drinks do you need to have going while you're driving a car? )
It's nice that something important, such as safety, is finely getting attention. Even there however it seems to be fairly skin deep (count the airbags) instead of serious attention to the structure (a la Volvo).
The good news is, in most respects there is lots of choice and lots of information.
$2000 for a NAV system, or $12.95 for a Rand McNally, it's up to you!
In the case of modern diesels and hybrids, there just isn't much choice -- yet.
This is a big rich country full of talented people. We ought to be at least as self-sufficient
in energy as we are in agriculture. It would be nice to have some political leadership in the spirit of JFK's "by the end of the decade, we will put a man on the moon". Our tastes, more than technology, seem to be holding us back. But events have been catching up to us and we all may be surprised how quickly everything changes for the better. None of the technologies I'm condsidering for our next vehicle would have been on our radar screen at all when we bought our last one.
but what many did bring up is the possible replacement costs for the battery(hybrid) and electric engine, which should cost a pretty penny > Another thing about Prius is the initial extra cost, which makes the recouping of cost in terms of gas savings quite long. However, Prius does help the environment, and thus is a very good vehicle, and I think the industry should move towards electriccharging the engines.
Like ruking said, it would be interesting to see a electrocharged hybrid diesel....hope the auto makers start moving in that direction !!
You can't buy them at all in CA and several New England states. Do other states cap the import numbers with air quality standards in mind?
1. essentially hidden in the UPFRONT costs
2./3. scheduled/unscheduled maintenance
4. price of resale (lower than a like gasser only model) (ie less due to spectre of battery replacement.
I also would say that alternate or alternative fuels is REALLY the only way to go. I think the environmental folks who only think that using less oil will solve our "crisis" are living in LA LA land! whether you 1. Roll your own 2. grow your own (soy beans for example 3 recycle your own (burning recycled oil) 4. alternate your own bio diesel 5 use a less consumptive product such as number # diesel on the food chain, 6. others (such as hydrogen fuel cell, CNC, etc)
It only makes sense that the less the majority wants of the same product the better?
Diesel engines have a proven track record in all sorts of vehicles from large trucks to luxury sedans. Hybrids are fuel efficient and clean, but when you stick an electric motor in an SUV like the Ford Escape, you're still burning a gallon of gas every 25-30 miles.
With Biodiesel, suddenly your vehicle can be burning less or even NO foreign oil and the profits go back to American farmers.
To me, that advantage outweighs the NOx emissions concerns . The country could address them, too, if we channeled back all the money we're spending in the Middle East. Let those countries go back to the 12th century if they want to. Take the money we're spending on the military there and give every retiring soldier a no-interest loan to go buy a new diesel vehicle.
President John F. Kerry will say the thing about our dependence on oil.
JOHN
Why? Ethanol has just as much potential.
> To me, that advantage outweighs the NOx emissions concerns.
Not a single person suffering from breathing related problems will agree with you. Intentionally allowing something to get worse is wrong.
Remember, the population will be growing too. So there will be even more vehicles on the road in the future.
JOHN
However, people who are keen on "green" vehicles cannot be motivated by economics alone. If your sole concern is saving money, buy a Civic HX or a Corolla.
Poilitical issues are just below the surface of all these discussions.
Personally, I think the health ramifications of defending our Mid-East "allies" may be greater than the short-term increases in NOx emissions from diesel cars. Moreover you can clean up diesel emissions by putting vegetable oil, blended with very low sulphur petrodiesel, in the kinds of diesels already available in Europe. We cannot defend high levels of oil imports without stationing troops in MidEast countries, and we cannot do that without getting people killed. That's a big health hazard. Biodiesel seems to address the problem more radically than hybrids do.
The counter argument would be to quantify any public health risk associated with the predicted increase in NOx emissions under various scenarios. Maybe someone can shed light on this. If you slightly increase NOx emissions (which biodiesel now does), even as you reduce hydrocarbon and COx emissions (which biodiesel also does), in hundreds of thousands of vehicles, is the net effect likely to be more deaths due to respiratory problems? Kinda hard to measure, I would think, especially if you had to factor in the relative safety of processing vegetable oil blends vs. gasoline across the distribution chain.
Why? Ethanol has just as much potential.
Maybe. I can pump B100 into my TDI and the performance/mileage decrease is very slight. If I pump E85 into my Tahoe (which is designed for it specifically and has programming to try and compensate) I still have substantially lower power/mileage and cold-start issues.