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Comments
Why are you forcing the perception that every owner will not only buy the extremely-well-loaded version of Prius, but also pay above MSRP?
That is wrong.
Before the gas price spike, most were paying MSRP, and many were just medium packages. Some people even managed discounts.
I know people that got the $19,995 price. Why are they being misrepresented? And why are you insisting on a "today only" attitude? Supply will eventually catch up with demand.
Buy the way, the exact scenario happened when the Ford Explorer was brand new.
JOHN
http://nitra.vwdealer.com/findlay-nv/en_US/
Then it will be easy for you to recalculate the numbers? Or is it because Prius doesn't come with with a free calculator in the package?
As for the "today only" attitude if I can buy today and run a Prius for a forward price of what I paid for the Jetta ( mine was 17.6 if I remember correctly before tax and tip)
Just found out that my best friend's colleague just bought a new Jetta TDI and is averaging a nice 43 MPG overall. He has the five speed and drives conservatively. He test drove the auto but said it was a little sluggish. That's one nice feature about the Prius. The CVT is quite responsive compared to a conventional auto tranny.
The TDI may be a great car for people who solely are looking for fuel economy. Other than that, I'd be yawning all the way to work. I need toys and that's why I like the Prius. If VW was smart they would advertise the TDI as an alternative to the Prius. Imagine all the interest they'd generate? All they have to do is add SE (can't have start smart because of the way the diesel starts I suppose), NAV, Bluetooth, etc. I'd bite!
Of course interstate commerce is almost 100% diesel!
"The TDI may be a great car for people who solely are looking for fuel economy. Other than that, I'd be yawning all the way to work. I need toys and that's why I like the Prius. If VW was smart they would advertise the TDI as an alternative to the Prius. Imagine all the interest they'd generate? All they have to do is add SE (can't have start smart because of the way the diesel starts I suppose), NAV, Bluetooth, etc. I'd bite! "
On the adult ADD, sorry that is off topic!
I would also agree! To me, the new frontiers also should include more emphasis on longevity. Two metrics that are pretty easily met 1. the "warranty period" 2. most all cars, with any reasonable care should easily do 100,000 miles. 3. It is the after part that has a higher priority for a host of reasons.
http://www.hondacars.com/info/news/article.asp?ArticleID=20040211- 61692&Category=Insight
Beauty is indeed in the eyes of the beholder, and there is no accounting for taste.
If you are stuck in stop-and-go traffic, "toys" may be welcome diversions. On the other hand, German engineers have a reputation for building "driver's" cars.
I like the Jetta TDI's fuel economy, but LOVE the way it drives.
Busy little motor-assist guages and pictograms is what would leave some of us yawning after the first few days of wonder.
I posted a summary of the Wash Post Review of the Escape Hybrid.
Driven under REALISTIC Conditions,
it averaged 30 mpg city and a DISMAL, unacceptable, 23 mpg Highway.
WHile many people I know ROutinely get 28 mpg Highway from Escape-sized SUVs that cost 10,000 LESS than the hard-to-find Escape Hybrid (they will build only 20,000 ofo them the first year, less after that)
Dennis
___Well someone is making Diesel’s SULEV anyway The Urea injection method requires a tank to be filled every 50 or so thousand IIR from my reads of the tech last year but it works. I wonder if you can just pull over to the side of the road, unzip, and Well you know what I mean
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=589- 3
and
http://www.futuretruck.org/
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Dennis
A matter of perspective and can't be classified as toys.
"smart entry/exit"
The little button that unlocks the car/turnk is smart enough for me
"NAV"
Got it, it's called Rand McNally
"bluetooth"
Don't need to be talking on the phone while I'm driving anyway...should concentrate more on the driving
"CVT tranny (quite responsive), "
No Thanks...I like to shift.....
"XM radio"
I prefer the Free Kind that doesn't require subscription....
So see....every driver is different....I don't need a bunch of frills to be happy with my car. Heck, my racecar doesn't even have a speedo or any seats but a drivers seat let alone A/C or power windows. I still enjoy driving it. And without all of the "Toys" I still love driving my Jetta TDI...all 100hp/177lbft torque and fun to drive aspect of it.
Just a matter of personal preference.
http://www.lacar.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&s- - id=249
Diesel (locally grown); mainly because it helps a little with our reliance on middle east oil, and secondly because it is great technology without the false image.
I had started to respond with almost exactly the same points (down to the "Rand McNally").
Hybrid is a good technology, but not for every car. For a heavier vehicle (like many SUVs), doing mostly highway, modern diesel makes more sense.
Another thing, if you're choosing a car for economy and longevity, does it really make sense to load up with expensive toys like a NAV system? Cool technology, I admit, but I bet they look hopelessly out-of-date in another 3 or 4 years, let alone the 10 to 15 I'd like to keep an automobile.
So I think the Prius, in the way some of them are bundled and priced, is a rather contradictory package. Unless what you're really selling is gee-whiz gadgets to people with lots of money to spend. Once the bloom is off that rose, the same people will realize you can even more gewgaws in a sportier package somewhere else. Or get energy-saving technology in a somewhat more sensible package (base Prius, or Honda Civic Hybrid.)
Instead, you feel the need to talk down the only configuration currently available.
If your intent is objective, let's see some actual detail about the hybrid technology.
Distracting people by talking down a specific vehicle accomplishes almost nothing. You'll have to do the very same thing all over again when each new HSD-equipped vehicle becomes available. Eventually, many will see right through that deceptive technique.
HSD is Hybrid Synergy Drive. It is the design Toyota engineered to blend a combustion-engine with both a generator-motor and a thrust-motor, allowing for seamless & rapid switching of power needs. This is what should be the topic of discussion, not any particular vehicle package.
JOHN
My assumption for planning purposes for both the Prius AND the Jetta TDI for example would be most likely WHEN, and how much!!?? These figures can be reasonably projected into a cost per mile!! Yet the Prius owners consistently and stubbornly refuse to even acknowledge cost per mile and instead talk only of the so called gee whiz technology!!?? So if it is true that batteries will be needed at the 150,000 mark then 3920/150k= .0261333 cents per mile for starters.
The actual experience of PRIUS owners and also TDI owners can both be scary if you factor in that VW TDI's in the USA is a scant 4% and the Prius in numbers of 22k is downright even scarier!!
That would be around 2012. By 2010, Toyota has stated that every passenger vehicle they build will be offered with the option of having HSD. Production and competition will increase each year until then. How could the cost possibly remain the same, as you are have claimed? Every new technology is expensive at first, then it drops significantly as volume increases.
Also, if it really was that expensive, why in the world would someone replace every module? Why not just 1/2 or 1/3 of them instead? That would obviously save them a bunch of money.
JOHN
Alot of good that does for people planning on buying a vehicle now....in 2004. And alot can change in 6 years..plans go by the wayside, etc. It is nice to speculate on future plans (published and not), but why don't we stick to the FACTS of here and now? That is, if we want to be truly objective.
YOU, nor I, have no idea what diesel techonolgy will be like in 2010, that is why there is no room for speculation, about any technology. You can spout of about..when this gets here..or Toyota/Honda/insert manufacturer here is planning on doing XXX by YYY....but until it truly happens, then it is only speculation. No matter what the propaganda says.
was because a previous poster argued that that packaging
(NAV, bluetooth,etc. in the Prius) made it a more interesting vehicle for him.
Can't argue with that - let's hear it for choice! - except to say that for
some of us, when you focus on the actual driving characteristics
of the alternatives (in addition to cost and these other issues), the VW TDIs are still a good option.
So maybe we're in agreement. Let's talk about hybrid vs. diesel, instead
of what makes a car more fun (Japanese electronic "toys", or German torque and precise handling).
I've said it elsewhere: hybrid electric is a great technology, but so far appears to shine best in lightweight vehicles, in stop-and-go traffic. For the many Americans who drive heavier vehicles in mostly highway or suburban driving, a modern diesel engine may well deliver greater fuel economy improvements and greater longevity, in a system that is less complex and therefore simpler to maintain (assuming all other quality factors are equal).
Granted, emissions are another issue.
That's like saying "My sister's boyfriend's cousin's husband knew a guy that he worked with that got one at that price".
"Why are you forcing the perception that every owner will not only buy the extremely-well-loaded version of Prius, but also pay above MSRP?"
Because we have repeatedly asked, and repeatedly been ignored, for real world data on Prius costs. So, all we can do is observe what we see on the lots, by seraching the classified, and searching the internet. The average pricepoint is somewhere around $26,700 or to make it easy $27K.
"And why are you insisting on a 'today only' attitude?"
Because it is TODAY and if I wanted to purchase a new vehicle TODAY (not tomorrow, not at the end of the year)...this is what I'm looking at.
" Supply will eventually catch up with demand."
But so far...it hasn't.
The good news and the bad news is that one would hope that one is able to fulfill on the 100 k warranty!!! While I am not familiar with how this extended warranty works in the real world and in your future, I can almost tell you that every time I have been faced with the numbers, buying an extended warranty did not make sense.
This does not even take into consideration the fine print; which if you read it carefully, almost excludes EVERYTHING!!
So for example, if your extended warranty pays for a min of 3920 (battery replacement) then you are in effect prepaying 987 for a 3920 future bill. BUT if it does not cover it, instead of 3920 (and assuming the Prius is as reliable as the old Toyota reputation) then you will be paying an extra 987. This of course will raise the per mile cost from .026133 cents to .0327133 or 20%.
Like wow, like this comment is like SOOO Brintey Spears!!
Anyway now that we are beyond that, NAV units...I have had them (in an S4), have never had a need to use it. I plan my trips before I go, and if I don't..well...."Getting there is half the adventure" as the old AD slogan goes. I enjoy driving, driving is one of my passions, whether it be on the track or a leisurely Sunday drive. I don't just drive my cars to get from one place to the other, I drive them because I want to.
It's like Bluetooth, I don't need it, don't care about how my cell phone operates in my car. When I'm in my car I usually want to be left alone from the office or whomever it might be. If I'm by myself and my wife calls, then I can take the time to put the phone to my ear, but if it is anyone other than family and it is not an emergency, they can wait until I'm to my destination. I'm in my friggin' car not the office.
I don't need gee whiz components in my car than can break and become useless unless I shell out more $$ to fix them.
I said before, all drivers are different, if you NEED toys, then fine, thats you, but please don't tell me to "Get real..." and that I will "wonder how (I) lived without it", you know nothing about me. I said I have no use for NAV and you should take it at that. I then went on to qualify that statement with "personal preference" meaning that if you wanted/needed "toys" then I thought it was fine...but I don't need/want those "toys".
"NAV units will be offered in most cars within ten years"
That's fine, but I won't pay extra for it. If it is a standard option on a vehicle I am looking at, then there is nothing I can do about it (sort of like the Sunroof on my GLS TDI, I don't need/want/use a sunroof, but to get leather I had to get a GLS in which the sunroof is standard). But I will not seek out NAV and pay extra for the option. That's just me...and if I'm SO LAST CENTURY...then so be it.
That very reason makes your intentions insincere. (Sorry, but it's true.)
The backorder list extends to about a 9-month delivery wait.
You could *NOT* buy a new Prius *TODAY* even if you wanted to.
> But so far
Impatience is just plain wrong. October to June is only 8 months. Other vehicles have had much longer supply delays. Why isn't Prius considered the same as them? After all, the other vehicles didn't even have to deal with third-party suppliers to the degree Prius does (hint: battery-pack modules).
JOHN
Not knowing how the numbers were calculated is a simple way to mislead. And if you really want to be deceptive, all you have to do is trick people into thinking that price for gas will be the same for the entire duration.
Expecting it to not cost more 8 years from now is totally unrealistic. Consumption is growing rapidly worldwide, especially in the still-developing countries. And with refinery capacity already at maximum, the only way to increase is to build new ones... which hasn't happened for decades in the United States (we've been limited to the same 150 for quite some time now).
The higher the price-per-gallon, the lower the cost-per-mile for a hybrid. (Those against hybrids don't want you to know just how much favor swings for hybrids after a certain threshold is exceeded.)
And of course, how representative of real-world the MPG they select for the calculations is always a subject of refute.
JOHN
I have been providing facts for those collecting them, to draw conclusions of their own later.
What "conclusions" are you talking about?
> let alone your conclusion that the Prius
Not paying attention, eh? The discussion is about HSD, not Prius.
JOHN
So, if I wanted a new car TODAY...I could go get one...a TDI...right off the lot....no waiting.
Toyota will also be producing and selling transaxle, inverter, battery, and control unit to Nissan for Altima Hybrid.
Dennis
I own a farm, grow and eat organic food, use a front-loading water-conserving washing machine, etc. But I would buy a TDI, with eyes wide open to the particulate and NOx emissions issues. In a few years, I'd expect to be driving that vehicle on low-sulphur diesel in a 20% or richer biodiesel blend. At that point, its emissions should compare relatively well to the hybrids'. Its CO2 emission levels already are good, and its fuel economy in real world highway driving appears to EXCEED the hybrids'. Plus, I can get a Jetta TDI in a wagon, without a months-long wait for delivery. I don't want to wait until 2006 for clean diesel, and in other respects the TDI seems to be a good choice for me now. For urban sedan drivers, a hyrid might be better.
Toyota Prius weights 2,890 lbs, close to Camry and other mid-size cars. They are not light weight at all. Performance hybrids like RX400h will have more power to weight ratio, meaning drivetrain components will be more than twice powerful than Prius but the SUV weights less than twice of Prius.
Hybrids shines best in stop-n-go traffic because they can take advantage of regenerative braking. Traditional ICE only cars are more efficient on highway than in the city. That does not mean that hybrids are inefficient on the highway! HSD is about 40% more efficient than ICE only car on highway. It drives me nuts when people say that HSD is inefficient on the highway while ignoring and comparing it to traditional car's already efficient highway mileage.
"For the many Americans who drive heavier vehicles in mostly highway or suburban driving, .... and greater longevity, ..."
The statement assumed that HSD use the same battery recharge cycle behavior on the highway as the city. On the highway, HSD does not recharge battery as often as in the city, especially while cruising at a constant speed! Let's look at the worst case city driving for the battery recharge cycle of the classic Prius:
"Some critics have questioned whether hybrids will be durable over the long run. Perhaps they should ask Vancouver BC's Andrew Grant, the world's first Toyota Prius taxi cab driver. After three years of daily use his Prius had logged over 180,000 miles with only a handful of minor problems"
http://cars.about.com/cs/familysedans/a/hybrid_explain.htm
"a modern diesel engine may well deliver greater fuel economy improvements "
HSD is more efficient than the most efficient or cleanest comparable diesel engine on the market and the winner of Best Fuel Economy International Engine of 2004.
http://www.ukintpress.com/engineoftheyear/winners/bestfuel.html
"in a system(diesel) that is less complex(than HSD) and therefore simpler to maintain"
Modern diesel engines are much more complex with computer controlled 23,000 psi direct injection. If you look at the whole car, there is also a complex transmission and complex/expensive after-treatment emission filter with catalyst converter just to be allowed on the road and to be sold legally. And then you'll have to replace them as they also "wear" out.
HSD is mechanically more simple and the complexity is migrated to the "computerization" of a modern car. The winner of Best New Engine of 2004.
http://www.ukintpress.com/engineoftheyear/winners/bestnew.html
Dennis
P.S: HSD won so many other awards and I can list them if anyone want to see more.
They will get WORSE, not better.
We already pointed out that EPA report that clearly stated NOx (smog) emissions will increase with the use of biodiesel.
> and its fuel economy in real world highway driving appears to EXCEED the hybrids'
Feeding this misconception is not a good idea.
A Jetta TDI vehicle that "doesn't require shifting" gets slightly lower than a equally sized HSD vehicle, like Prius.
So whenever someone tries to generically use the term "hybrid" and not mention they are comparing to a manual, we are going to point out the misleading comment. Please be more specific next time.
> For urban sedan drivers, a hyrid might be better.
What does "urban" mean?
We have already pointed out that "suburban" driving produces the greater efficiency using HSD, and that type isn't usually considered "city".
JOHN
There are specific vehicle vs. vehicle boards out there. This board is a general technology vs. technology board which involve discussion of the outlook of both technologies. LSD won't be available in US until 2006 but HSD hybrids are!
Dennis
Actually it is not the price of the fuel that we estimate to remain the same, but the DIFFERENCE in price between regular unleaded and diesel. Trends show that diesel usually runs $0.20 (on average) cheaper than gasoline. It was that way 20 years ago, 10 years ago and now...although prices have risen in the past 20 years.
No, that time has already been proven too.
> Can you make 35 miles to the Toyota dealer with a couple dead cells?
Yes, in fact you could likely make another 35,000 miles that way.
An owner had an after-market stereo system added. The bonehead installer secured the amp by drilling holes through the protective metal casing of the battery-pack and ended up piercing 2 of the modules.
The Prius drove perfectly, despite being injured. But since virtually all of the electricity for steep hill climbing comes from the engine, rather than the battery-pack, you wouldn't expect to notice anyway. Heck, most of my highway merging is done without ever tapping the battery-pack too.
In fact, the owner would not have even known that had happened if it wasn't for the computer sending out a warning message stating it had detected module failures.
HSD was designed to ignore dead modules. And since the electricity is mostly for efficiency sake, not power, the battery-pack can be crippled pretty bad without the need for concern. MPG will just drop, that's basically it. The vehicle will continue to run fine.
JOHN
It is a possibility but not likely. Even then, Prius has ability to generate electricity and drive the car since it has two electric motors.
"Will one cell make any difference in the operation of the car? Can you make 35 miles to the Toyota dealer with a couple dead cells?"
One cell will not make a difference in a normal driving condition as you are not requesting for maximum current from the battery. Technically you can make 35 miles trip to the dealer because Prius can generate electricity while accelerating. I don't know if the computer will let you drive when it detect that the pack is not working though. You are going to ask someone that experienced that.
Dennis