"To achieve the large numbers on the window-sticker, the temperature must be a minimum of 68^F.
Thats funny...because I continually EXCEED the EPA estimates on my car, without sacrificing my driving style, or looking for >68*F climates. In fact...the high here today is 70*/low is 52*...so I wouldn't say I live in the warmest of climates.
"Flood the market in the 45 free states with diesels."
lol
Being from NY, I think that's still very funny. But by the time that diesels make it to market in force, it will be 2006 and then they can be sold here.
Brightness04 - I've stopped talking about nuke power because this is the wrong forum for it, BUT I have to say that it's Plutonium, not Platonium and that "the most toxic substance known to man" is actually a subjective term depending on how you define toxicity.
I'm no friend of any radical group. However, nuclear power generation has huge problems in waste disposal, namely, after half a century and billions of dollars spent, there is yet to be found a safe and secure long term disposal solution. Given that fact, it's highly unlikely that nuclear power generation can be economicly vialbe, much less providing lower-cost electricity. If nuclear power supporters want to pay lower electricity rate because of possible lower generation cost (doubtful, highly dependent on interest rate of borrowing the initial capital), then they'd better place liens on their houses for long-term disposal risk ;-)
"> even some one like John can't do the EPA rated 51 highway 60 city. under "real world" conditons!
Last month's MPG average was 53.7 MPG, which is clearly within EPA estimates.
Your claim that I don't drive "real world" has no basis whatsoever on fact. It is just a sad attempt to discredit & distract, by making it personal and not focusing on the HSD design.
JOHN "
<me>
"I also get the feeling that even with "fuel miser action" of careful to EXTREMELY careful, that even some one like John can't do the EPA rated 51 highway 60 city. under "real world" conditons! (again folks do not construe this to being pejorative! It is NOT!)
I wish I had kept the link to the longtitudinal Boston Massachusettes study that measures the air quality. The basic concept it emphasized (I think like three years ago) that air quality was actually in the green!!!??? This was of course pre Prius in any sig numbers not to mention any measurable difference due to them! "
Gee , you reacte almost as if I didn't say that the above out of context quote was not to be taken pejoratively!!
But in lieu of owners figures.....
"> Then you wouldn't be contributing AT ALL to the NOx levels
That is yet another MISCONCEPTION.
For much of the nation, electricity is created by coal. That means overall NOx emissions from an electric vehicle are actually *HIGHER* than my AT-PZEV Prius.
And the stupidity of this topic is that a GEM has a top-speed of only 25 MPH, no heater, and no safety options.
JOHN "
You might have dire need of artificial adversaries', but I assure you; the misconceptions are of your own making!
What are you agreeing with part of a statement out of context ?
You said: >> ..."for hybrid cars that get up to 30 percent better fuel economy"
>I agree as well
The statement you were agreeing with was:
quote- Lutz also argues that it doesn't make economic sense for consumers to pay several thousand dollars more for hybrid cars that get up to 30 percent better fuel economy.-
That it doesn't make economic sense to buy a hybrid -- which you agreed with -- yet you just bought your second Prius hybrid.
So does that mean you say one thing and you actions do something different ?? Just curious..
You seem to understand the situation perfectly and I completely agree with you. However, you are talking to what is akin to a brick wall and truth and proof are usually ignored. And you will never receive any admittance of error, mistake, or appology.
Please keep posting, you add good opinion and insight to the discussions.
There has and continues to be a lot of excellent information on this forum comparing hybrids to diesels.
Yes, I agree with the Lutz quote (hence my response to it). 30% isn't worth it.
Fortunately, HSD delivers much more than that (close to 100%) and it has the potential to dip well into the affordable range.
> That it doesn't make economic sense to buy a hybrid
Duh! It doesn't *TODAY*. (Of course, buying a monster-size gas-guzzler doesn't either.)
That's why all of my efforts are focused toward once mass-production becomes a reality and a wide-variety of models are available. All the *TODAY* nonsense by others here is a total waste message posting, meaning nothing to the LONG-TERM.
I certainly will! Just had a friend tell me she was off to get her brand new, "come on down after we charge the batteries" - Prius !!. She was able to get her "color," NO navigation (she's in LA LA LAND no less!!???) Package 3 for those of you in the know!? After a 3 week "him in and haul lin", at MSRP with extended warranty or 27k out the door.
My LA LA Land experiences with the TDI in full "rush" hour traffic, AC on, 4 folks in the vehicle was a dismal 44-48 mpg!
Okay much clearer you think 30% hybrid improvement is too low , it should be much higher say 100% imporvement
However since the Prius doesn't have an ICE only counterpart, I am curious what does deliver 100% more ( or twice as much).
If you are looking at economy the Corolla gets 32/40 probably 35 Of course, I have been told that the Prius has much more features and luxury than the Corolla and that the Corolla is BLAND!. Well I have news for the BLAND people, that is Toyota's and Lexus's main goal to make their cars BLAND. BLAND is quiet, isolated!. I know I have one Toyota and two Lexus and they are all BLAND, even the 5-speed IS300. Bluetooth, NAV, SE/SS do not remove BLANDness!
If you take the Prius 60/51 and use 55 that is a 57% improvement. If you use a more realistic 45 then that is only a 28.5% improvement.
I guess if you use 55 and figure the average mid-class cars ( Prius is midclass becuase of another EPA loop-hole of counting hatch space) at 27.5 you would get %100. Again ,that is a lot of assumptions.
Now if you factor initial cost and cost of battery replacement then Total Cost of Ownership (TCO)then the percentage goes down.
What I really look at is how it compares with a Golf or Jetta TDI ( diesel) with a manual transmission. Then they are pretty even Steven. Jetta TDI manual (38/46) Jetta TDI auto (33/44) However the Jettas fully loaded are closer to the entry Prius (which is pretty well loaded). However, neither of these have the performance I want, but maybe all the performance I need. Of course then so does a 5-speed Insight Honda or a 5-speed Honda Civic Hybrid. I think manual is still a need for me. I will get an auto when they pry my cold, dead fingers from the gearshift Well maybe if I gcould get a really good deal on an available Prius: I like new gimics and new technology.
YMMV but I need performance also,
MidCow
P.S.- This has got to be the most active forum around!!!!
Had to take three people home from work (they got dropped off by their loved ones). Since today is Hamptons Day the traffic was exceptionally heavy. We had four on board and we're creeping quite a bit. The best moment was when we were just sitting there with NO engine on and arctic air was blasting from the AC with nice tunes cranking. I then smelled something foul and low and behold, it was a diesel vehicle in front of me. Ugh..... do the new ones smell this bad????? Oh.. averaged a nifty 52.3 going home hauling four people. Not bad! Kudos to the Prius!!!
Hello, all! Just read an interesting article at EV World, "Is a Hybrid Car Right for You?" (from CNN/Money 6/25). I learned that EPA estimates of the tons of greenhouse gases produced per year by type of cars are: Prius 3.5 tons, Jetta TDI 5.1 tons, and Jetta gasser 7.9 tons. What is particularly interesting is that the new TDI Jetta is so much cleaner than the gasoline version.
Clearly CARB needs to get on this right away! They should allow TDIs to be sold, and instead, ban all new gasoline cars from being sold in California! Then (assuming that the board members are not lynched by an angry public), they can all go out and find really productive employment, instead of restricting our freedom.
Digging a little deeper epa.gov says the 04 gas Jetta gets a "air pollution score" of 8 ("greenhouse gas score" of 7) same vehicle with a diesel only gets a 4 on the air pollution scale but does do better on the greenhouse gas scale (getting a 8, the gasser only got a 7) the 04 Prius gets a 9 and 10 respectively. CARB does need to get on this, sounds like VW - USA has a problem. Corse when ULSD is widely available the diesel numbers should look better.
You just pointed out that the info you provide isn't clear enough to be understood by all... the very thing I've complained about. (see: "vague" references).
just a little side note on the Passat TDI 2.0. It seems some of the owners were experiencing surging. When they switched to the ECD-1 ULSD that was available in their area, the surging went away. The black puff of smoke when it started was eliminated and the car ran much better. So all you TDI owners look for a BP/ARCO station with diesel. They only sell ULSD at their stations. See locator for your state. This will eliminate a big share of the NOx that is mentioned from time to time on this forum.
Greenhouse gas rating is about as relevent as mudflap size for vehicle cleanliness. For the far more relevent NOx and particulates for local pollution, TDI is far worse than regular gasser.
No... you failed to see my point. I had to overtake it... it was going WAY too slow and causing my passengers to become nauseous. Quite an easy manuever for the Prius.
Discovered a cool weekend car. Any thoughts on the Mini Cooper S? Does that meet with your approval midcow??
Light duty diesel vehicles are not even in the top 10 for sources of NOx. Light duty gasoline vehicles are #2. #1 is utilities. What are you driving brightness? A light duty gasoline vehicle?
Forest fires are a major contributor of NOx and particulates. California should ban forest fires. California could simply cut down all the forests. It would be just as effective as their emissions regulations which prohibit light duty diesels and allow heavy duty diesel trucks.
I drive an '04 Toyota Highlander Ltd. The 3.3V6 qualifies the vehicle for ULEV status under California regulation for LDT2. The ULEV standard for LDT2 is about 50% more strict than LEV standards for passenger cars. TDI not only can not meet LEV standard so far, it can't even meet the basic requirement for it to be sold legally California!
The primary goal of pollution control is to improve air quality in high traffic (congestion) area. The last time I checked, there wasn't a forest fire in the middle of LA or SF traffic jam.
What type of diesel vehicle was it? The new ones with EGR and catylst do not smell at all.
There was a crash this morning on the other side of the expressway on my commute to work and a late model Tahoe was in flames. Gasoline is much more volatile than diesel and prone to explosion. More diesel vehicles would be safer.
I wonder what chemicals are released into the atmosphere when the batteries in a hybrid vehicle burn? It can not be good.
What are the major sources of pollution in a LA or SF traffic jam? Last time you checked was it a light duty diesel vehicle? Let me answer the question for you- #1 is light duty gasoline vehicles and they are legal for sale.
CARB solution is to allow the source of the problem and prohibit the vehicle that is less than 1% of the market. CA has the highest energy prices, some of the most polluted cities, thank you CARB!
"If YOU truly cared about NOx...especially since you live in an Urban area...you would purchase an EV such as them GEM "
Electric cars are not as clean as Prius due to the process of generating electricity. Your argument is asking people to compromise in range, power and speed. It will not work as proven many times in automotive industry. Even environmentalist has to strike a balance between green and practicality.
The solution for this trade-off/compromise situation is HSD. With HSD, you can have both. HSD lowers emission and oil dependence without sacrificing power. HSD even improve responsiveness and power delivery, which many reporter failed to address in their articles. They only talk about saving fuel to make up for hybrid extra cost, blah blah. Where are the reports on superior responsiveness and passing power? Do they simply overlook those benefits because they mislabel Prius as an economy car? Or do they simply don't understand the other half benefit that HSD provide?
This is the reality in emission of Prius in Europe. When LSD fuel come to U.S in 2007, you will be looking at the same state of emission that will be offered by HSD and low sulfer diesel cars.
"The new Prius largely surpasses EURO IV emission targets. Hydrocarbon and nitrous oxide emissions are respectively 80% and 87.5% lower than required by EURO IV regulations for petrol engines. In addition, in a moment when most diesel engines in the market don’t even comply with EURO IV, Prius NOx emissions are 96% below the EURO IV level for diesel cars. Prius produces only 104 g/km of CO2 tailpipe emissions (on a Combined cycle), breaking even the 100 g/km barrier on the Extra-urban cycle (99 g/km)."
• Prius NOx emissions are 96% less than diesel EURO IV levels, with no particles emission • Toyota Prius produces the lowest NOx and HC emissions of any internal-combustion production car in Europe • First to comfortably meet EURO IV, J-ULEV and AT-PZEV emission regulations at the same time • Prius saves 32% CO2 emissions in Life Cycle Assessment compared to a normal petrol car
I can't remember the last time I heard about a Hybrid burning and releasing TOXIC fumes. I do know one thing for sure. Hybrids contribute LESS pollution to our environment than oil burner TDIs/diesels. Once they figure out a way to build a diesel that has emissions on par with a Hybrid, then I'd be more than happy to entertain buying one. In the meantime, it appears that the only player in affordable diesels in the US is VW. Mercedes are wonderful, but way too expensive. A great alternative will be the '05 Liberty with the Mercedes built diesel. I am not sure how good the mileage will be. Probably MUCH better than the gasoline version.
FYI.. the car I had to overtake was a late 80's Merc. That leads us to another problem. Since there are quite a few 8-10 yr old diesels on the road, people will associate them with that stench and never embrace them. I do know that the new ones are MUCH better at controlling the "diesel smell".
Electric cars are not as clean as Prius due to the process of generating electricity.
I will have to ask where your information is coming from on power generation. From what I have read in the last few days the current technology in coal generation is much better, 75% cleaner than 1998. And the technology being put in place as we speak will take an additional 33% of the NOx from the above amount. Also my information is that it cost approximately $.02 to produce a KWH of electricity with coal. And the Prius costs approximately $.25 to produce that same KWH. With that information I believe the electric car is far cleaner, just by the amount of fuel consumed to generate electricity. Not to mention we have the coal in the USA. Then your feelings of short range are the main reason GM EV cars failed. That is legitimate, however with battery technology advancing they should be able to overcome the short range. The bottom line is I will not be a part of Toyota having a strangle hold on the USA as the Middle East has with the oil.
"I will have to ask where your information is coming from on power generation."
My information is from an article that I did not bookmark.
"From what I have read in the last few days the current technology in coal generation is much better, 75% cleaner than 1998."
That's a great news but how much NOx, CH, and other PM are they still generating? How does it compare to Prius' super ultra low emission?
"Also my information is that it cost approximately $.02 to produce a KWH of electricity with coal. And the Prius costs approximately $.25 to produce that same KWH. With that information I believe the electric car is far cleaner, just by the amount of fuel consumed to generate electricity."
Am I missing something here? How do you assume that amount of $ equal to the amount of fuel consumed to generate electricity? And how do they relate to the emission? Expensive solution can be cleaner. For example, gas is more expensive than coal and much cleaner. Also, Prius primarily drives on combustion engine in most situations. It does not need to generate much electricity from the gas engine since it can also regen brake.
It does not need to generate much electricity from the gas engine since it can also regen brake.
Correct me if I am wrong. My limited knowledge of the Prius and similar hybrids, is that the electric motor actually drives the CVT then the wheels. If that is the case the only thing the ICE performs is electrical generation. The $.25 per KWH is a nominal figure derived from high efficiency gas gen sets. So that would be a ball park figure. Actual cost of the electricity in San Diego is $.085 per KWH. The amount contributed by the braking cannot be very much. Unless of course you ride your brakes a lot.
That's a great news but how much NOx, CH, and other PM are they still generating? How does it compare to Prius' super ultra low emission?
This may all be moot. Someone posted on the forum in the last few days, and I accepted what he said. That all the electrical generation in the US amounts to about 2% of the energy expended on automobiles or transportation. His point was that if we all had EVs there is no possible way to support with our current generation levels. He predicted more massive blackouts if only a small percentage of our vehicles were charged on the grid. So I am back to driving my old Suburban and Lexus. Maybe someday some company will build a vehicle I can want enough to part with my bucks.
You make a negative comment about a diesel vehicle and odor and fail to mention that it is a 20 year old diesel. This is same type of generalization/vague/omission that John rants about when it concerns hybrids. Of course, John has a stated purpose and is constructive;)
Yes, the older diesels do tend to smoke and smoke a lot when not maintained well. Smoke and odor is something that is also prevalent with poorly maintained older gasoline engines. I still remember a particularly bad 80's Dodge Caravan that was smoking terribly on my commute last week. Terrible smell of burning motor oil.
Oh, and the Liberty diesel has a VM Motori diesel, not Mercedes. It is a misconception that the Liberty has a Mercedes diesel.
I would drive a hybrid if- 1. It was priced competively and made economic sense. Currently none offered meet that definition. 2. A non-dealership mechanic was willing to work on it. 3. The features offered met my desires. Sporty with excellent handling, moonroof, leather interior option, no useless techno junk (navigation, bluetooth, telematics such as Onstar, ultra expensive keys).
Had same emissions as a Prius Had built in NAV Had keyless entry- once you get used to it you hate the other way Had Toyota reliability v. VW Audi unreliability Had bluetooth- Can't deal with wires Had LESS NVH Had a CVT type transmission (hate manuals for a 20 mile LI commute). etc etc etc....
TDI is avaible with DSG. Better than CVT. Fuel efficient as manual and no clutch pedal for those unable or unwilling to shift themselves.
quote-The DSG has caused a revolution with regards to automatic gearboxes. It not only combines the best features of a manual gearbox with those of an automatic, but for the first time solves the conflict in combining economic diesel engines with an automatic that does not eliminate the advantage of fuel consumption. Furthermore, this gearbox has a great fun factor: Gear changes are so fast that even skilled drivers wouldn't be able to perform the same way with a manual gearbox. -
My VW TDI's have been as or more reliable than my Toyota's. VW's reliability rating is affected by 1.8T coil failures more than anything else. At least VW admitted the problem and fixed it. Toyota still denies that they have a sludge problem even though they will fix the sludge problem.
Question- Are Prius drivers the type who are distracted drivers talking on phone, distracted by NAV, doing ANYTHING except DRIVING? Now that so many (drivers, not hybrid drivers specifically) use headsets and no hands phones in their vehicles I notice their terrible erratic driving long before I get close enough to see the headsets or their mouths running 90 miles per hour and their vehicle going 5 mph less than speed limit in left lane.
Question- Are Prius drivers the type who are distracted drivers talking on phone, distracted by NAV, doing ANYTHING except DRIVING?
Very good question. My wife and I just went to Costco. Pulling out we saw a new Prius with the whole side wrinkled. I told my wife that is the car we have debated the last couple weeks. We passed it and the other side was also dented in. So to answer your question, I think they are distracted with all that extraneous, unnecessary crap.
I have only driven the gas version. Aside from the CA issue. It is very difficult to just scrap a wonderful car like the LS 400 at 80k miles. Being a 1990 it is not worth anything. Except it runs like a new car and it looks like a new car without a scratch on it. Always garaged and serviced by Lexus.
If the posts aren't about this topic, we'll start deleting.
I'm getting quite a few email complaints about the discussion flowing off-topic. If it's a new topic you want to discuss, please create a new discussion for it.
Thank you so much for the link, Moparbad. I found it good reading, and I recommend that all here who prefer manual shift cars should read this. It dispels the idea that manual offers much improved acceleration and mileage. With the DSG + TDI combination, this is no longer true. At the same time, VW's tiptronic automatic offers the option of manually shifting gears, for those who like the more sporty feel of doing that. Just a note for those who do read this article: the VW Jetta we have here in America is the same car known as the Touran in Europe.
Moparbad... thanks for the interesting read. Is this car going to be available in the US? I went to the VW site and tried to price out a Jetta wagon TDI. There was no option for this type of transmission. Is this something for 2005? If so, I am very interested. I also like the dash!!
DSG transmission was introduced on the 2004 NB TDI. The pictures in the article are of a 2004 Golf (new body style) in Europe. This does not arrive in US until 2005 as a late 2005/early 2006 model.
Improved emissions will be availble with the ULSD and the diesel vs. hybrid discussions will be more interesting as more hybrids and diesels are available on the market.
I especially liked the dashboard layout. If marketed properly, this will be a good alternative to the hybrids. I wasn't too keen on the acceleration figures though. Perhaps a chip may bring the performance to within acceptable levels. I look forward to test driving one.
Comments
Thats funny...because I continually EXCEED the EPA estimates on my car, without sacrificing my driving style, or looking for >68*F climates. In fact...the high here today is 70*/low is 52*...so I wouldn't say I live in the warmest of climates.
lol
Being from NY, I think that's still very funny. But by the time that diesels make it to market in force, it will be 2006 and then they can be sold here.
Brightness04 - I've stopped talking about nuke power because this is the wrong forum for it, BUT I have to say that it's Plutonium, not Platonium and that "the most toxic substance known to man" is actually a subjective term depending on how you define toxicity.
Last month's MPG average was 53.7 MPG, which is clearly within EPA estimates.
Your claim that I don't drive "real world" has no basis whatsoever on fact. It is just a sad attempt to discredit & distract, by making it personal and not focusing on the HSD design.
JOHN "
<me>
"I also get the feeling that even with "fuel miser action" of careful to EXTREMELY careful, that even some one like John can't do the EPA rated 51 highway 60 city. under "real world" conditons! (again folks do not construe this to being pejorative! It is NOT!)
I wish I had kept the link to the longtitudinal Boston Massachusettes study that measures the air quality. The basic concept it emphasized (I think like three years ago) that air quality was actually in the green!!!??? This was of course pre Prius in any sig numbers not to mention any measurable difference due to them! "
Gee , you reacte almost as if I didn't say that the above out of context quote was not to be taken pejoratively!!
But in lieu of owners figures.....
"> Then you wouldn't be contributing AT ALL to the NOx levels
That is yet another MISCONCEPTION.
For much of the nation, electricity is created by coal. That means overall NOx emissions from an electric vehicle are actually *HIGHER* than my AT-PZEV Prius.
And the stupidity of this topic is that a GEM has a top-speed of only 25 MPH, no heater, and no safety options.
JOHN "
You might have dire need of artificial adversaries', but I assure you; the misconceptions are of your own making!
I agree as well. That's why I support HSD, since it delivers close to a 100% improvement.
So what is *YOUR* point?
JOHN
Yes, you twisting my original words could ultimately deem me as the source.
Notice how the interface here contributes highly to orginal words being easily lost.
JOHN
This is just non-constructive posting... hence the summary.
JOHN
You said:
>> ..."for hybrid cars that get up to 30 percent better fuel economy"
>I agree as well
The statement you were agreeing with was:
quote- Lutz also argues that it doesn't make economic sense for consumers to pay several thousand dollars more for hybrid cars that get up to 30 percent better fuel economy.-
That it doesn't make economic sense to buy a hybrid -- which you agreed with -- yet you just bought your second Prius hybrid.
So does that mean you say one thing and you actions do something different ?? Just curious..
Have a good day!
YMMV,
MidCow
You seem to understand the situation perfectly and I completely agree with you. However, you are talking to what is akin to a brick wall and truth and proof are usually ignored. And you will never receive any admittance of error, mistake, or appology.
Please keep posting, you add good opinion and insight to the discussions.
There has and continues to be a lot of excellent information on this forum comparing hybrids to diesels.
YMMV,
MidCow
Fortunately, HSD delivers much more than that (close to 100%) and it has the potential to dip well into the affordable range.
> That it doesn't make economic sense to buy a hybrid
Duh! It doesn't *TODAY*. (Of course, buying a monster-size gas-guzzler doesn't either.)
That's why all of my efforts are focused toward once mass-production becomes a reality and a wide-variety of models are available. All the *TODAY* nonsense by others here is a total waste message posting, meaning nothing to the LONG-TERM.
JOHN
My LA LA Land experiences with the TDI in full "rush" hour traffic, AC on, 4 folks in the vehicle was a dismal 44-48 mpg!
However since the Prius doesn't have an ICE only counterpart, I am curious what does deliver 100% more ( or twice as much).
If you are looking at economy the Corolla gets 32/40 probably 35
Of course, I have been told that the Prius has much more features and luxury than the Corolla and that the Corolla is BLAND!. Well I have news for the BLAND people, that is Toyota's and Lexus's main goal to make their cars BLAND. BLAND is quiet, isolated!. I know I have one Toyota and two Lexus and they are all BLAND, even the 5-speed IS300. Bluetooth, NAV, SE/SS do not remove BLANDness!
If you take the Prius 60/51 and use 55 that is a 57% improvement.
If you use a more realistic 45 then that is only a 28.5% improvement.
I guess if you use 55 and figure the average mid-class cars ( Prius is midclass becuase of another EPA loop-hole of counting hatch space) at 27.5 you would get %100. Again ,that is a lot of assumptions.
Now if you factor initial cost and cost of battery replacement then Total Cost of Ownership (TCO)then the percentage goes down.
What I really look at is how it compares with a Golf or Jetta TDI ( diesel) with a manual transmission. Then they are pretty even Steven. Jetta TDI manual (38/46) Jetta TDI auto (33/44)
However the Jettas fully loaded are closer to the entry Prius (which is pretty well loaded). However, neither of these have the performance I want, but maybe all the performance I need. Of course then so does a 5-speed Insight Honda or a 5-speed Honda Civic Hybrid.
I think manual is still a need for me. I will get an auto when they pry my cold, dead fingers from the gearshift
YMMV but I need performance also,
MidCow
P.S.- This has got to be the most active forum around!!!!
And the least constructive.
JOHN
Clearly CARB needs to get on this right away! They should allow TDIs to be sold, and instead, ban all new gasoline cars from being sold in California! Then (assuming that the board members are not lynched by an angry public), they can all go out and find really productive employment, instead of restricting our freedom.
NOx (smog) emissions makes TDI much dirter.
> They should allow TDIs to be sold, and instead, ban all new gasoline cars from being sold in California!
NOx (smog) emissions makes TDI much dirter.
JOHN
Hmm.
You just pointed out that the info you provide isn't clear enough to be understood by all... the very thing I've complained about. (see: "vague" references).
Interesting.
JOHN
I have repeated my purpose many times.
That's a very important step in being constructive.
We still have no clue what your purpose is.
Why do you participate here?
JOHN
http://ecdiesel.com/business/locator.asp
As well as being a car nut!
YMMV,
MidCow
Discovered a cool weekend car. Any thoughts on the Mini Cooper S? Does that meet with your approval midcow??
Forest fires are a major contributor of NOx and particulates. California should ban forest fires. California could simply cut down all the forests. It would be just as effective as their emissions regulations which prohibit light duty diesels and allow heavy duty diesel trucks.
CARB is non-constructive. LOL
The primary goal of pollution control is to improve air quality in high traffic (congestion) area. The last time I checked, there wasn't a forest fire in the middle of LA or SF traffic jam.
There was a crash this morning on the other side of the expressway on my commute to work and a late model Tahoe was in flames. Gasoline is much more volatile than diesel and prone to explosion. More diesel vehicles would be safer.
I wonder what chemicals are released into the atmosphere when the batteries in a hybrid vehicle burn? It can not be good.
CARB solution is to allow the source of the problem and prohibit the vehicle that is less than 1% of the market. CA has the highest energy prices, some of the most polluted cities, thank you CARB!
Actually, it does. Toyota Allion mid-size sedan shares the same platform as Prius. You can find much more detail comparison at usbseawolf2000 "Toyota Allion Vs. Prius" Jun 18, 2004 10:01pm
Dennis
Electric cars are not as clean as Prius due to the process of generating electricity. Your argument is asking people to compromise in range, power and speed. It will not work as proven many times in automotive industry. Even environmentalist has to strike a balance between green and practicality.
The solution for this trade-off/compromise situation is HSD. With HSD, you can have both. HSD lowers emission and oil dependence without sacrificing power. HSD even improve responsiveness and power delivery, which many reporter failed to address in their articles. They only talk about saving fuel to make up for hybrid extra cost, blah blah. Where are the reports on superior responsiveness and passing power? Do they simply overlook those benefits because they mislabel Prius as an economy car? Or do they simply don't understand the other half benefit that HSD provide?
This is the reality in emission of Prius in Europe. When LSD fuel come to U.S in 2007, you will be looking at the same state of emission that will be offered by HSD and low sulfer diesel cars.
"The new Prius largely surpasses EURO IV emission targets. Hydrocarbon and nitrous oxide emissions are respectively 80% and 87.5% lower than required by EURO IV regulations for petrol engines. In addition, in a moment when most diesel engines in the market don’t even comply with EURO IV, Prius NOx emissions are 96% below the
EURO IV level for diesel cars. Prius produces only 104 g/km of CO2 tailpipe emissions (on a Combined cycle), breaking even the 100 g/km barrier on the Extra-urban cycle (99 g/km)."
• Prius NOx emissions are 96% less than diesel EURO IV levels, with no particles emission
• Toyota Prius produces the lowest NOx and HC emissions of any internal-combustion production car in Europe
• First to comfortably meet EURO IV, J-ULEV and AT-PZEV emission regulations at the same time
• Prius saves 32% CO2 emissions in Life Cycle Assessment compared to a normal petrol car
Dennis
FYI.. the car I had to overtake was a late 80's Merc. That leads us to another problem. Since there are quite a few 8-10 yr old diesels on the road, people will associate them with that stench and never embrace them. I do know that the new ones are MUCH better at controlling the "diesel smell".
I will have to ask where your information is coming from on power generation. From what I have read in the last few days the current technology in coal generation is much better, 75% cleaner than 1998. And the technology being put in place as we speak will take an additional 33% of the NOx from the above amount. Also my information is that it cost approximately $.02 to produce a KWH of electricity with coal. And the Prius costs approximately $.25 to produce that same KWH. With that information I believe the electric car is far cleaner, just by the amount of fuel consumed to generate electricity. Not to mention we have the coal in the USA. Then your feelings of short range are the main reason GM EV cars failed. That is legitimate, however with battery technology advancing they should be able to overcome the short range. The bottom line is I will not be a part of Toyota having a strangle hold on the USA as the Middle East has with the oil.
My information is from an article that I did not bookmark.
"From what I have read in the last few days the current technology in coal generation is much better, 75% cleaner than 1998."
That's a great news but how much NOx, CH, and other PM are they still generating? How does it compare to Prius' super ultra low emission?
"Also my information is that it cost approximately $.02 to produce a KWH of electricity with coal. And the Prius costs approximately $.25 to produce that same KWH. With that information I believe the electric car is far cleaner, just by the amount of fuel consumed to generate electricity."
Am I missing something here? How do you assume that amount of $ equal to the amount of fuel consumed to generate electricity? And how do they relate to the emission? Expensive solution can be cleaner. For example, gas is more expensive than coal and much cleaner. Also, Prius primarily drives on combustion engine in most situations. It does not need to generate much electricity from the gas engine since it can also regen brake.
Dennis
Correct me if I am wrong. My limited knowledge of the Prius and similar hybrids, is that the electric motor actually drives the CVT then the wheels. If that is the case the only thing the ICE performs is electrical generation. The $.25 per KWH is a nominal figure derived from high efficiency gas gen sets. So that would be a ball park figure. Actual cost of the electricity in San Diego is $.085 per KWH. The amount contributed by the braking cannot be very much. Unless of course you ride your brakes a lot.
This may all be moot. Someone posted on the forum in the last few days, and I accepted what he said. That all the electrical generation in the US amounts to about 2% of the energy expended on automobiles or transportation. His point was that if we all had EVs there is no possible way to support with our current generation levels. He predicted more massive blackouts if only a small percentage of our vehicles were charged on the grid. So I am back to driving my old Suburban and Lexus. Maybe someday some company will build a vehicle I can want enough to part with my bucks.
Yes, the older diesels do tend to smoke and smoke a lot when not maintained well. Smoke and odor is something that is also prevalent with poorly maintained older gasoline engines. I still remember a particularly bad 80's Dodge Caravan that was smoking terribly on my commute last week. Terrible smell of burning motor oil.
Oh, and the Liberty diesel has a VM Motori diesel, not Mercedes. It is a misconception that the Liberty has a Mercedes diesel.
I would drive a hybrid if-
1. It was priced competively and made economic sense. Currently none offered meet that definition.
2. A non-dealership mechanic was willing to work on it.
3. The features offered met my desires. Sporty with excellent handling, moonroof, leather interior option, no useless techno junk (navigation, bluetooth, telematics such as Onstar, ultra expensive keys).
Had same emissions as a Prius
Had built in NAV
Had keyless entry- once you get used to it you hate the other way
Had Toyota reliability v. VW Audi unreliability
Had bluetooth- Can't deal with wires
Had LESS NVH
Had a CVT type transmission (hate manuals for a 20 mile LI commute).
etc etc etc....
quote-The DSG has caused a revolution with regards to automatic gearboxes. It not only combines the best features of a manual gearbox with those of an automatic, but for the first time solves the conflict in combining economic diesel engines with an automatic that does not eliminate the advantage of fuel consumption. Furthermore, this gearbox has a great fun factor: Gear changes are so fast that even skilled drivers wouldn't be able to perform the same way with a manual gearbox. -
TDI has keyless entry as standard equipment.
TDI is available with OEM built in NAV, it is possible to have it installed in the US. (Why do Prius drivers, or any drivers, require NAV system to find there way around?) here is photo of DSG and NAV http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/volkswagen_news/printer_79- 7.shtml very, very nice
My VW TDI's have been as or more reliable than my Toyota's. VW's reliability rating is affected by 1.8T coil failures more than anything else. At least VW admitted the problem and fixed it. Toyota still denies that they have a sludge problem even though they will fix the sludge problem.
Question- Are Prius drivers the type who are distracted drivers talking on phone, distracted by NAV, doing ANYTHING except DRIVING? Now that so many (drivers, not hybrid drivers specifically) use headsets and no hands phones in their vehicles I notice their terrible erratic driving long before I get close enough to see the headsets or their mouths running 90 miles per hour and their vehicle going 5 mph less than speed limit in left lane.
Very good question. My wife and I just went to Costco. Pulling out we saw a new Prius with the whole side wrinkled. I told my wife that is the car we have debated the last couple weeks. We passed it and the other side was also dented in. So to answer your question, I think they are distracted with all that extraneous, unnecessary crap.
I'm getting quite a few email complaints about the discussion flowing off-topic. If it's a new topic you want to discuss, please create a new discussion for it.
Improved emissions will be availble with the ULSD and the diesel vs. hybrid discussions will be more interesting as more hybrids and diesels are available on the market.