"Correct me if I am wrong. My limited knowledge of the Prius and similar hybrids, is that the electric motor actually drives the CVT then the wheels."
Yes, you are wrong. Planetary full hybrids like Prius, 400h, and Escape hybrids do not have transmission(just reduction gears) between drivetrain and the wheels. You can look at it two ways: 1) E-CVT is tightly intergrated into the drivetrain. 2) There is no dedicated hardware just for the role of transmission.
"If that is the case the only thing the ICE performs is electrical generation."
ICE can turn the wheel and/or generate electricity with the introduction of Power Split Device(PSD). Prius is a true full hybrids with two power sources and two drivetrains. It just happens that electricity is generated from the same ICE that also power the wheels.
From your description, your perception of Prius is a series hybrid where ICE generates electricity and e-motor drives the wheels. It is incorrect because Prius can act as both series or parallel hybrid designs. You can find more information at: http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/ths2/what.html
If you'd like to smell a horrendous odor, stand behind most any toyota product that's not a hybrid. I've owned several Toyotas, followed some too closely, and was nearly knocked out standing behind our new GX470 we picked up Saturday. If rotten eggs is your thing, you'll love getting stuck behind one of these. Pray for a smoke belching Mack truck to come along and spritz things up. I'm almost embarrassed to drive the thing if it's going to smell this bad.
Hybrids do not make a profit and are subsidized by the non-hybrid vehicles sold. quote- But the giant skeleton in every HEV's closet is COST. Anyone who has any idea what these dual powertrain components really cost will know that Toyota is stretching credibility to claim that even the simpler Echo-based Gen I Prius was profitable at its $20k price.
By selling small volumes of $40K HEVs at half price, Toyota and Honda have reaped huge PR benefits while concealing the actual cost of hybrid technology from customers and, more importantly, from technologically ignorant media and environmental advocates.-end http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7269&sid=19- - 2&n=156
Gee, anyone know who keeps stating that the Prius is profitable?
When you buy a diesel you are paying your fair share of the cost as diesels are profitable. In reality, they are more profitable than gasoline models.
Hybrids also receive tax incentives.
When will hybrids be able to exist on their own merit and generate profits?
Sebring... please... you're exaggerating! There is NO comparison to the stench of a diesel compared to a conventional gas engine. I'd rather spend my time idling behind a Toyoyta SUV than a truck/car that is a diesel. Granted the NEW diesels (2004 up) are much better but they are NOT sold in NY so I rarely see them unless they are visiting. WHat you really want to be sitting behind in bumper to bumper traffic is a Hybrid. NO EXHAUST....
Actually I prefer to live somewhere without bumper-to-bumper traffic, LOL. Really, I don't find that rotten eggs smell better than diesel, and that's exactly the very stong odor many Toyota gassers belch. I was trying to find the backup camera eye and the stench behind the GX nearly knocked me out. I've been in the garage with my TDI idling and the odor is very light (during a cold start) and not near as pungent as the sulphur/rotten egg smell. I've seen those 20yo MB's blowing the black stuff. Had one apparently mash the pedal trying to merge in front of me awhile back and I had chunks of carbon hitting my windshield. I cannot get my Ram diesel to blow black smoke, even with 15,000# and doing my best to work the engine very hard. If you've not smelled a gas motor out on the highways, you must have a peculiar sniffer. I've been behind many vehicles and usually when they're struggling to pull a hill you get some nasty odors. Of course running your HVAC in recirc all but eliminates those outside odors anyway, but I tend to run with the windows down a lot when I'm on my own. I have no doubt a Hybrid is likely very light on the odors, although I'd be curious if there is some of that sulphur/rotten eggs smell. Next time I'm stuck behind a hybrid struggling up these steep hills I'll make sure my window is down;)
> I'd be curious if there is some of that sulphur/rotten eggs smell
Again with the over-generalization...
Anywho, you are smelling sulfur, which is caused by dirty gas. It has nothing to do with being a hybrid or not. Your area still has high-sulfur gas.
Thankfully, low-sulfur gas will be required nationwide by the end of next year. (CA has had it for ages. Spots along East Coast have it for years. And some stations in MN have had it since 1999.)
Thankfully, low-sulfur gas will be required nationwide by the end of next year. (CA has had it for ages. Spots along East Coast have it for years. And some stations in MN have had it since 1999.)
That must be why I had not noticed the rotten egg smell here on our CA highways. The LX470/Landcruiser are in the top 5 worst polluters for 2004. Hopefully Toyota will clean up all their vehicles to at least come up to the rest of the automakers. Maybe the hybrid is a smoke screen to cover up their inability to build an ICE that is low emission.
> Until then, sulfur is in the gasoline for the hybrids and diesel fuel for the diesels, except in CA.
That is a bizarre statement.
First, it isn't true. Sulfur will still be in gas & diesel afterward anyway... hence the word "low".
Second, "except in CA" is meaningless. The other areas are just playing catch up.
Third, some areas are "close to low" already for gas. They just don't meet the cutoff. And other areas have already achieved the "low" criteria, like select stations in MN since 1999.
"The diagram on the Toyota site very clearly shows the transmission (CVT) between the electric motor and wheels and between the engine and wheels."
This is how it actually look like.
.
That thing in the middle is the Power Split Device. It is similar to the differential of rear wheel cars where driveshaft power is split into two rear wheels. PSD is sort of like reverse of differential. Try to imagine replacing two rear wheels with ICE and electric motor.
PSD is not a CVT. The whole drivetrain is the transaxle.
Hmmm.. since NY has adopted California's rigid emissions policies I wonder if NY is one of those states with low sulfur gas. I have smelled the rotton egg smell, but I was in PA at the time. Regardless, older diesels do give off a pungent odor. Cars that have bad rings are WORSE than diesels and that really annoys me. I'd have to say most drivers that own diesels are more cognizant of their maintenance intervals.
"I have smelled the rotton egg smell, but I was in PA at the time"
I always smell it on Van Wyck passing flushing before connecting with Cross Island Pkwy. I thought it was cuz of those dump and swamp. Might be totally different topic.
First, it isn't true. Sulfur will still be in gas & diesel afterward anyway... hence the word "low".
Second, "except in CA" is meaningless. The other areas are just playing catch up.
Third, some areas are "close to low" already for gas. They just don't meet the cutoff. And other areas have already achieved the "low" criteria, like select stations in MN since 1999.
JOHN -end
Your entire response is bizarre.
CA already has sulfur at 30 ppm level and diesel at 50 ppm or less sulfur. Other states in the US do not have or do not uniformly have the low sulfur fuels, hence the "except CA" reference.
What is low? What does close to low mean? These statements are vague and meaningless judged by your past criticism, yet I understand your intent.
Taking into consideration your purpose of "Improving your debate skills" your response is understandable.
Pointing out the "national requirement by the end of 2005" does not need any further clarification. The entire country will be held to the same criteria for the label of "low sulfur".
but remember, MB and Jeep are already introducing diesels for 2005. I'm quite sure that D-C will have their hands full of orders for the Liberty! They originally said they'll make 5000, but the demand has been so high that they have now said that they will raise production to meet demand. I can't wait to see those numbers.
Oh, and the Liberty diesel has a VM Motori diesel, not Mercedes. It is a misconception that the Liberty has a Mercedes diesel.
Well, the liberty diesel is based off of a motor that VM makes for Mercedes. Plus in a round about way, VM is owned by DC so it's not a stretch to say it's a MB diesel. No where near as removed as Cummins is to Dodge, that's for sure.
Actually if the Libery diesel is as successful as the gas engine, we're in for some interesting market shift. I really DO want CLEAN diesels to be successful here.
Can anyone tell me what RPM (approx) the TDI 1.9 turns when going 70 MPH?
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Does a new TDI have its own oil supply for the turbo unit or does it draw from the engine, also is there a water separator or do the fuel filters take care of that ? Easy but if time is money...
2003 TDI gets its oil supply for the turbo from the engine (4.75 dry quarts).
There is a water separator built into each fuel filter. 1. So if it is time to change the filter, (you can bypass the water separating gig) which takes all of 2 min. 2. So if it is time to do JUST the water separator proceedure you MIGHT add another 2 min. for a total of 4 min.
I am not sure in what context you mean by "Easy but if time is money..." But I hope my answer to your question is clear.
Your answer was clear, thanks ! While I'm in the hybrid camp its good to know there are other alternatives out there and when ULSD hits hybrids could get more than they bargained for.
At the risk of repeating myself: Imagine what would be the context and content of the discussion if the hybrid's gasser portion were run on 1970's leaded gas!? I think you correctly infer that the ULSD will greatly cut down emissions , just as the switch to unleaded gas has made a big difference. As you probably know, the 2003 TDI is already capable of running ULSD with no modification.
I keep reading about this special oil requirement for 2004+ TDIs. Is this type of oil readily available for DIY oil changers? Will this type of oil be a requirement in all new diesel engines? Not that it really matters, but I was curious what properties it has that VW will void your warranty if they discover you're using different type of oil.
The ULSD (or LED as its called here in Texas) program may or may not be as seamless as the switch to unleaded gasoline was, by April of next year we are to be at 500 ppm sulfer content in some counties then in June of '06 it goes to 15 ppm, which should generate lots of paperwork... http://www.tnrcc.state.tx.us/air/ms/fuelprograms.html#dsl1
Well for sure! But as a matter of record, I read somewhere that there are 29 "designer" lines of so called commoditized unleaded gasoline, currently "manufactured" or brewed in the USA, but you get the drift. When you contrast that with diesel, it is far less at roughly 6 lines. Right now #2 diesel has a 40 cetane requirement for 49 states and for CA 45 cetane. Add to that b20 and b100 and so called premium and biodiesel.
There is a $205 increase in cost to upgrade from a gasoline Passat to a diesel Passat. To upgrade from a non-hybrid to a hybrid Civic or Accord is $3,000 plus. Diesel has advantage on cost.
You also have to factor in what you get on a fully loaded Prius vs a fully loaded TDI. Overall, you probably get more value in a TDI but end up causing more pollution (6 times more was what I read). That will change in 2006 (hopefuly). Once thing you can't get in a diesel is auto engine shutdown at lights and when in heavy traffic. That's the BEST feature!! No emissions when creeping. Gotta love it!!
Actually given what you are saying, it should be only a matter of time before diesel hybrid's become a reality, for some if not all the reasons you mentioned! But then again now the diesel will have the same BE problems as the gasser hybrid! (i.e., Prius vs Corolla example)
Using the Prius vs Corolla example, at a local dealer, I can get invoice plus for the Corolla and would have to do some serious negotiating to see what would flesh out for the Prius. Most places are selling at MSRP and above! There is also up to a 2 year waiting list.
As much bru ha ha that has been in the media and markets about the gasser hybrids, precious few folks have seemed to join the fray about their 2003 Prius's and Honda Insights!?
Hindsight indicates I should knock on wood for getting the 2003 TDI at invoice plus!
Excellent point Midcow. As a matter of fact, when word gets out that the TDI is a great alternative (gas mileage wise) to the Prius, those low life VW dealers will be adding a nice markup making the spread even larger. Yes lots of Toyota dealer scum out there too. Anyway.. the 1.8turbo can be had with HUGE discounts and is a great deal more fun to drive than the diesel. WHen you chip those 1.8t's they FLY!!!
Definitely an interesting analogy but it doesn't fly with me. With regards to the TDI the only difference is the engine. That's it! With the Corolla and Prius it's like night and day. Prius has MUCH more content, ride quality, gadgets etc. It's NO contest. Why should I pay over list for a TDI (some do!!) when I can get a 1.8 for thousands less?
Accord, Civic, Camry, Corolla all sell at $1,000's under MSRP also. Prius are selling for MSRP or greater and up to an exceeding $27,000 used. Using the selling prices i/o MSRP there is a $9,000 price increase between a Camry and a Prius. Checking Carsdirect site to look at pricing for the Prius the target price for a base Prius is over $25,000 and for a Prius with Package 9 the target price is over $31,000!!!! WOW That is over (way over) 100,000 miles of fuel for a Camry using $2 as price for gas and 27 mpg for Camry fuel economy. I obtained a $3,000 discount on my 2004 TDI, no MSRP for me.
There is no hybrid on the market that offers a financial savings due to fuel economy during the first 100,000 miles compared to similar non hybrid gasoline vehicle. Diesel, howver, does offer a financial advantage during the first 100,000 miles and in the case of the Passat the cost difference is returned by savings on fuel in the first 15,000 miles.
If anyone pays over 30 grand for a Prius with any option package I've got some ocean front property in Arizona your gonna love ! (as George J. would say)
Hybrid buyers will pay over $30,000 for a USED Prius, not even new. If you are selling ocean front property in Arizona there are Toyota dealers such as Don McGill and Lawrence Toyota where you could fit right in. Either the salespeople could sell sand to a camel or people are just too stupid with too much $.
Jealous? Yes I am. I envy the choices that Euro consumers have for diesel vehicles. The Accord Diesel is one I'd like to see in US. I'm ashamed of the diesel fuel that is available in the US as it is some of the dirtiest diesel in the world. I'm jealous that the BMW 1 series will not be available in US.
I agree there are people out there with more money than sense and that goes for anyone that would pay over 30 grand for a used Prius or 35 grand for a 25 thousand dollar pickup with a cap on it even though the marketing dept has given it a slick name with a three letter acronym.
Comments
Yes, you are wrong. Planetary full hybrids like Prius, 400h, and Escape hybrids do not have transmission(just reduction gears) between drivetrain and the wheels. You can look at it two ways: 1) E-CVT is tightly intergrated into the drivetrain. 2) There is no dedicated hardware just for the role of transmission.
"If that is the case the only thing the ICE performs is electrical generation."
ICE can turn the wheel and/or generate electricity with the introduction of Power Split Device(PSD). Prius is a true full hybrids with two power sources and two drivetrains. It just happens that electricity is generated from the same ICE that also power the wheels.
From your description, your perception of Prius is a series hybrid where ICE generates electricity and e-motor drives the wheels. It is incorrect because Prius can act as both series or parallel hybrid designs. You can find more information at: http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/ths2/what.html
Dennis
quote- But the giant skeleton in every HEV's closet is COST. Anyone who has any idea what these dual powertrain components really cost will know that Toyota is stretching credibility to claim that even the simpler Echo-based Gen I Prius was profitable at its $20k price.
By selling small volumes of $40K HEVs at half price, Toyota and Honda have reaped huge PR benefits while concealing the actual cost of hybrid technology from customers and, more importantly, from technologically ignorant media and environmental advocates.-end
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=7269&sid=19- - 2&n=156
Gee, anyone know who keeps stating that the Prius is profitable?
When you buy a diesel you are paying your fair share of the cost as diesels are profitable. In reality, they are more profitable than gasoline models.
Hybrids also receive tax incentives.
When will hybrids be able to exist on their own merit and generate profits?
The diagram on the Toyota site very clearly shows the transmission (CVT) between the electric motor and wheels and between the engine and wheels.
usb- Are you saying the Toyota diagram is incorrect?
Again with the over-generalization...
Anywho, you are smelling sulfur, which is caused by dirty gas. It has nothing to do with being a hybrid or not. Your area still has high-sulfur gas.
Thankfully, low-sulfur gas will be required nationwide by the end of next year. (CA has had it for ages. Spots along East Coast have it for years. And some stations in MN have had it since 1999.)
JOHN
That must be why I had not noticed the rotten egg smell here on our CA highways. The LX470/Landcruiser are in the top 5 worst polluters for 2004. Hopefully Toyota will clean up all their vehicles to at least come up to the rest of the automakers. Maybe the hybrid is a smoke screen to cover up their inability to build an ICE that is low emission.
http://www.greenercars.com/12mean.html
And low sulfur diesel will be available nationwide by the end of 2006, allowing diesel emissions to be reduced greater than 90%.
Until then, sulfur is in the gasoline for the hybrids and diesel fuel for the diesels, except in CA.
That is a bizarre statement.
First, it isn't true. Sulfur will still be in gas & diesel afterward anyway... hence the word "low".
Second, "except in CA" is meaningless. The other areas are just playing catch up.
Third, some areas are "close to low" already for gas. They just don't meet the cutoff. And other areas have already achieved the "low" criteria, like select stations in MN since 1999.
JOHN
This is how it actually look like.
That thing in the middle is the Power Split Device. It is similar to the differential of rear wheel cars where driveshaft power is split into two rear wheels. PSD is sort of like reverse of differential. Try to imagine replacing two rear wheels with ICE and electric motor.
PSD is not a CVT. The whole drivetrain is the transaxle.
Dennis
I always smell it on Van Wyck passing flushing before connecting with Cross Island Pkwy. I thought it was cuz of those dump and swamp. Might be totally different topic.
Dennis
That is a bizarre statement.
First, it isn't true. Sulfur will still be in gas & diesel afterward anyway... hence the word "low".
Second, "except in CA" is meaningless. The other areas are just playing catch up.
Third, some areas are "close to low" already for gas. They just don't meet the cutoff. And other areas have already achieved the "low" criteria, like select stations in MN since 1999.
JOHN
-end
Your entire response is bizarre.
CA already has sulfur at 30 ppm level and diesel at 50 ppm or less sulfur. Other states in the US do not have or do not uniformly have the low sulfur fuels, hence the "except CA" reference.
What is low? What does close to low mean? These statements are vague and meaningless judged by your past criticism, yet I understand your intent.
Taking into consideration your purpose of "Improving your debate skills" your response is understandable.
Pointing out the "national requirement by the end of 2005" does not need any further clarification. The entire country will be held to the same criteria for the label of "low sulfur".
> Other states in the US do not have...
Yes they do.
JOHN
"Yes they do" requires clarification.
http://dieselforum.org/resources/JD0604.pdf
Reread the previous posts.
JOHN
Well, the liberty diesel is based off of a motor that VM makes for Mercedes. Plus in a round about way, VM is owned by DC so it's not a stretch to say it's a MB diesel. No where near as removed as Cummins is to Dodge, that's for sure.
Speculation...let's wait until oct 2005 and pull the numbers again. I think they'll both be selling like hotcakes.
Can anyone tell me what RPM (approx) the TDI 1.9 turns when going 70 MPH?
4th Gear = ~3050rpm
5th Gear = ~2375rpm
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(x 100k=$1,145.58)
oil and oil filter changes, air filters,cabin filters, brake pads, rotors, fuel filters, 2 year brake fluid changes, tires, timing belt change, water pump change, Clutch wear.
All DIY
(except for 275 dollars in 90-120k mile TB change, or -.00275=.0087058 cents per mile (x 100k) = $ 870.58 if I did it myself).
There is a water separator built into each fuel filter. 1. So if it is time to change the filter, (you can bypass the water separating gig) which takes all of 2 min. 2. So if it is time to do JUST the water separator proceedure you MIGHT add another 2 min. for a total of 4 min.
I am not sure in what context you mean by "Easy but if time is money..." But I hope my answer to your question is clear.
Diesel has advantage on cost.
(50 mpg, 1887 gals. @ 1.59 #2 diesel) vs 1.95 ur)
But TDIs are selling for MSRP with sometimes discounts of $1000-$1200
while non-TDIs are selling anywhere from $3000 to $4,500 off of MSRP.
So actually the gap in VW is $2,200 to $3,500 between TDI and non-TDI models.
YMMV,
MidCow
As much bru ha ha that has been in the media and markets about the gasser hybrids, precious few folks have seemed to join the fray about their 2003 Prius's and Honda Insights!?
Hindsight indicates I should knock on wood for getting the 2003 TDI at invoice plus!
How long do you honestly expect the typical owner to continue active in message boards?
They say their piece, listen to the nonsense that results, then move on.
JOHN
There is no hybrid on the market that offers a financial savings due to fuel economy during the first 100,000 miles compared to similar non hybrid gasoline vehicle.
Diesel, howver, does offer a financial advantage during the first 100,000 miles and in the case of the Passat the cost difference is returned by savings on fuel in the first 15,000 miles.
There seems no other explanation for how uptight you are getting.
Just chill and instead look at the LONG-TERM perspective. Don't like the stuff happening today bother you so much.
JOHN