Actually , I think the 1.8 Acura Integra GSR engine was one of the best. Or the Toyota 1.8 liter engine. Actually the Prius has a ICE of 1.5 plus two elctic motors. How is displacement of the two electic motors measured? Becuase without them a 1.5 LL atkinson engine is even more anemic.
It's not the performance, but the technology I imagine. Regardless, it's only an award. Nothing more. I still think the 1.8t motor in the Audi/Jetta is a technological marvel.
while surfing the Edmund's website I found an interesting parallel. The H2 and the Prius have identical consumer ratings, 9.3. What is even more interesting was the improvements wanted on both was better gas mileage. The Hummer people felt a Diesel would help the mileage for them. The few Prius people that were unhappy felt the mileage claims were a fraud. One consumer jumped the EPA for exaggerated Mileage claims and was told the EPA got the information direct from Toyota. That is contrary to posts I have read here. Anyone have any documentation on this claim?
Oh yes... didn't you know that Gary? The EPA decided to save money so they take an avidavit from each manufacturer attesting to their mileage. I believe this has been done for the last ten years or so.
That's like letting the fox count the chickens! I learn something new every day on here. I thought it was kind of funny no matter how good or bad your gas mileage is, you want better... I did not expect mileage to be an issue with Prius owners.
Some people really don't get it. When I purchased my Prius, the first thing I said was "no way am I going to get that type of mileage" I estimated I would get an average of 48 overall. In actuality, over the last month, I have been getting between 47-49 on a tank. When I first got the car in Nov 03 I was averaging 42-44. I am getting 3x as much mileage as my Liberty and twice as much as my Mercedes. No complaints from me! Come 2006, I am going to be getting a Jetta TDI (possible 2nd car) as long as it has built in NAV and HIDs. It also depends if that new diesel fuel is available too. This way I'll have the best of both worlds!
Do you like the Liberty well enough to buy the diesel version when it is available? Anything in the 40-50 mpg range is great. So you really like that NAV. Do you have a job where you use it? I was not able to justify it on my Suburban. Then I never get lost going to Home Depot.. Have a great 4th of July, I'm up at work trying to get more oil down the pipeline.
Loved the Liberty but hated the mileage. I would definitely get the diesel version ONLY if Daimler Chrysler makes stability control an option. Believe it or not, that truck is a handful on turns in the snow even in 4WD. It's very tail happy. Conversely, the Prius with VSC is extremely stable in snow and handles excellent. NAV is very important to me on Long Island. We always look for shortcuts to places and ways around traffic. Just used it last night to get to a new restaurant. I'll be in Europe for two weeks in August and will definitely be bringing my Garmin 2610. Happy 4th.. and have fun up there! Thanks for the OIL Gary!
Hybrid technology... particularly the variant coming in the RX400H and Highlander... not only improves fuel economy, emissions, and performance... but also allows for superior handling, convenience, etc... which are a function of Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive. In Japan, the self-parking Prius was an easy feat because the tech was already in the car... there was no 'mechanism' required for the self-parking technology... the electric power steering required for the tech was integral to the Prius's fly-by-wire hybrid technology.
Anyone hear been reading the posts in the Liberty Hybrid room? If anyone wants a really nice small SUV with decent mileage, the Liberty diesel may be your answer. I had a gas version which I sold because of the poor mileage. I understand the Liberty with the diesel may get in the high 20's overall. Not bad! Any news on the 2005 Jetta/Golf TDI's?
I was under the impression the manufacturers could report lower EPA numbers if they chose. A recent article in Automotive News was about how GM engineers had impoved the '05 Silverado/Sierra trucks by 1.6mpg and they chose to only report a 1mpg (could have reported 2mpg due to epa "rounding up" rule). They chose to underestimate their numbers for customer satisfaction. They said that customers don't shop the EPA stickers on trucks, but they'll bring them in for warranty work if they don't hit the numbers after the fact. All I know is, I generally expect to get EPA numbers for most vehicles (read...non-sporty). Both my GM V8 trucks exceed the EPA sticker, particularly out on the highway. On some legs, it greatly exceeds the highway figure. My TDI seems to be the exception as I can flog it and still easily get the EPA ratings. Curious how my diesel pickups would perform were they subject to the EPA sticker.
I've never had a car that achieved EPA numbers but that's the way I drive. My Liberty NEVER got the highway mileage the EPA claimed. I still loved that little truck. Can't wait for the diesel version. I may get another one in 2006.
Actually you are really talking about energy. A time dimension needs to be also considered.
"In electricity, power is usually expressed in kilowatts; energy is usually expressed in kilowatt-hours."
My point was that cubic Liters aor cubic inches of ICE engine dipslacement is meaningless in measuring engine size. You understood that point.
The point is that the engine category, like EPA measurement, based soley on ICE displacement size is again meaningless in today's world. Why you ask? Because the Prius 1.5 Liter Atkinson motor alone would have very low take-off torque and would probably not be acceptable to most consumers, even you.
Now concerning the conversion, the Prius converts to a higher voltage so that smaller wires can be used. Remember watts equals voltage times current ( making the assumption that the angle between voltage is zer0 degrees(0), i.e. pure resistance without capacituive or inductive components). At the same watt power then when you increase the voltage you decrease the current. Loower current requires smaller wires. As a secondary benfit is is easier to regulate the higher voltage.
Yes be we are talking about a connected circut and only 500 volts not a Van DeGraff generator (which can actually produce up to 250,000 volts). Also arcing is minimized by a closed cicuit and using electronic circuits to perform tha actual switching.
When you are talking about 10,000 volts you are thinking of the old condensor coil spark plugs and the condensor and contacts did need to be replaced every 10,000 miles or so.
Yes, it's current, more like a tesla coil than a van de graff--except for spark coils, of course. Different system..
Still, that's a big reason cars use 12V , normally. Much harder to have electrical "leakage." I know a lot of manutacturers are looking at moving to 42V for the same reason ( more juice through a smaller wire ). I'm a little suprised by 500v. Sure, it's not 250,000 volts, but it may be enough to jump if a fault develops in the insulation. But i'm sure toyota did a lot of research on it.
I have a friend who had the second generation GM EV-1 and he loved everything about the car except the driving range. He let me drive it once and I would have leased one if it would have gone further than 80 to 100 miles on a charge. As I understand it, the idea behind the fuel cell is to replace the batteries in an electric car so you have a much longer driving range. However, mass produced fuel cell cars are still many years away. Has there ever been any thought about replacing the fuel cell with a small gas or diesel generator? Using the same technology that is used in current hybrids, such as regenerative brakes, you could make a car whose drive system is 100% electric. The generator would be used to recharge the super capacitors that would supply the power to the electric motor. Since the generator would only run when needed you would think that a small 20 HP, two cylinder, high output generator would use very little fuel and therefore get very high mileage. What do you think?
It was very, very quite. All you heard on the freeway was some tire noise. In town, it had good pickup and sounded like you had a small turbine engine when you took off from a stop.
Hmm... sounds like my Prius in electric mode. I still think it would be cool to own one of those as a second car for errands. Too bad it's no longer available.
I looked at the EV for just that purpose. It seems they were very expensive. And not very attractive styling. I think if the car looked more conventional and GM had passed on some of the money they received for research, it may have sold better. Drive to the store come home and plug it in. Ideal for short trips to shop.
That type of hybrid where the engine is never mechanically connected to the wheels is called a "Series Type" hybrid. When the fuel-motor and electric motor are both connected at the same time, its called a "Parallel Type" hybrid, like the Prius and Insight. Chrysler demonstrated a different parallel hybrid with a Durango SUV that had the V6 driving one axle and the electric motor on the other doing the regenerative braking. They claimed V8 performance on V6 fuel. It was still a gas guzzler compared even a normal sedan such as an Accord or Camry!
The Series hybrid drive-train as you described is used for all train locomotives in North America, except there are no batteries. Just a huge diesel engine and generator which drives multiple electric motors (each train wheel is directly mounted on the axle of the motor).
Our newest ferries on the coast here also feature diesel-electric power with electric motors on all 4 corners and a drive system that can rotate each propellor a full 360 degrees ... something that is difficult with mechical drive. Another feature is that there are 3 engines, but only 2 used for normal operation. Not only is it fault tolerant, but the boat is never out of service for an engine rebuild ... they simply cycle which motors are active and which one is idle and available to be worked on. But again, no batteries.
I think that what you were suggesting was to take the best design for an all electric car, and then add a tiny motor as a generator so you never have to plug it in. That's an approach that I've thought would be great for a light-duty errand/grocery-getter vehicle of minimal weight. I was also wondering about one that ran off propane (the same tank as a gas B-B-Q) because it burns cleaner ... minimizing the emissions for the car.
BTW: The army is testing a new vehicle using exactly the design you mentioned. Of course, their engine is a larger diesel because its an armoured troop-carrier type thing, but by building the motors into the 4 wheels they escape the mechanical limitations of drive-shafts and such. The benefits of running cables to wheels over driveshafts are: - tighter turning for better maneuverability - more wheel travel for better off-road capabilities
Diesel Vs Hybrid. All the EPA mileage they advetised are the number you, in real life what is the mileage like. Try to drive a hybrid at 20 below zero and tell the mileage you are getting. Almost half new car sale in Europe are diesel powere. Why?. Do you know how much a liter of gasoline cost over there. Find out and you do the math. What power a locomotive. Diesel electric. What about a modern oil tanker that deliver fuel for your car. Diesel electric. Diesel technology has improved over the last decade. Common rail technology is here to stay. If we can pursuade our friendly refinery to produce low sulphur diesel which I think the government mandate it in 2006, then we will see more diesel powered car for the us market.And it also depends on the price of gasoline.If gasoline stays under$3.00/gasoline,which I dont it will in the foreseeable future, then diesel powered car will be popular here. E-Class MD CDI 28/25 mpg 0-60 faster than the gasoline sibling. BMW 330 CDI. get average of 28 to 30mpg. Then you those below 1500cc get between 45-65 mpg. So much for my input.
-20C happens a lot, here in Minnesota. No big deal.
-18F happened last year. It wasn't a big deal either.
> Do you know how much a liter of...
Local taxes don't help the big picture much.
> Diesel technology has improved over the last decade.
Yet an automatic in mixed driving still can't get MPG as good as a HSD hybrid.
> low sulphur diesel
Along with hardware improvements, clean diesel may not be able to achieve the SULEV emission rating. But even if it does, that hardware adds to the cost of the vehicle.
Majority of diesel passenger cars sold have been equipped with manual transmission. Until 1998 an automatic was not even an option on a VW TDI. Reality is that 42 mpg is common with an auto TDI in mixed driving and 47 mpg is common with manual in mixed driving. This is better than reported (in the press) mpg for mixed driving with HSD.
A single report, with obvious measurement flaws, does not consititute a true representation of what actual owners get... especially when the data wasn't even generated by an owner.
Anyone can rig a single event (just like that article) to make the results appear favorable.
Try a year-long steady in mixed driving instead. Results favor HSD highly that way.
"Sales clearly indicate that a solution for "joe average" must be an automatic. "
I'd like you to show me figures where TDIs and diesels in general are being equipped with auto tranny's in far greater numbers than manual transmissions.
"But that is *NOT* what the general population wants."
Too bad the automotive industry has made the general population (as you call them) lazy.
"Only enthusiasts want a manual."
WOW! So I'm an enthusiast? I thought I just acheived greater driving satisfaction by shifting the car myself. I didn't realize this made me an enthusiast. As far as the general population wanting an automatic, I think I've been over this before, I own two automatics because there was NO OPTION for a manual tranny, if there were the option for manual on my two auto models, I would have seriously considered them. But left with no option, it means I was forced by the manufacturer to purchase an auto (not because I, as average joe, needed auto as a solution, but because I, as average joe, was not allowed nor given the option to purchase an manual).
Since the argument is that "joe average" will assumably switch from gas to diesel, the statistics for current gas purchase choices is what shows their preference.
> So I'm an enthusiast?
Correct. You are clearly not representative of any type of majority and far from being "joe average".
> Too bad the automotive industry has made the general population (as you call them) lazy.
Implying a meaning is NOT appropriate. I suggest you retract that comment.
I did not in any way, shape, or form called anyone lazy. In fact, if you read previous posts you'll see that I clearly pointed out how an automatic delivers greater torque than a manual transmission... hence a strong appeal factor.
You are clearly not representative of any type of majority and far from being "Joe average".
I think it is fair to say you do not represent "Joe Average either" From the sales I would say Joe average drives an Accord or Camry. And even if he wanted to join your very small elite group he would not be allowed in for a couple years. In light of the fact that the Prius is not available to the masses, we would like an alternative. That is where cars like the VW TDI come in. whether we get a stick or auto seems a bit irrelevant to the superior fuel mileage the diesel offers over the average gas vehicle in it's respective class.
> I think it is fair to say you do not represent "Joe Average" either
Since I never made that claim, I fail to see a point.
In fact, I have done just the opposite. Several times I have pointed out that even though I'm getting MPG in the 50's, the average joe is more likely to get the upper 40's.
> From the sales I would say Joe average drives an Accord or Camry.
Why are you abruptly changing the subject?
No one was discussing vehicle type or class. In fact, we weren't even talking about vehicles. The topic was and still is about propulsion technologies. That means TDI verses HSD.
You are the one that changed the subject. The subject is diesel vs Hybrid. My point is that hybrid is NOT an option right now so give us vehicles that are available now. And the lame argument about emissions is not valid. The VW TDI is somewhere in the middle of the new cars on the road today and puts out less CO2. They also use far less of our precious oil. You continually talk about what will be in the future and not give credence to what is available today. You and a few others have hybrids and are very pleased with them. There are thousands of people that are not able to buy one. They have as much right to own an economical car as you do.
I agree that ULSD is the way to go. That should not be the controlling factor on whether I buy a diesel car. Just like unleaded gas was legislated, so will cleaner diesel. It is not like ULSD is new. It has been available for a long time in Europe. Poor diesel has not slowed down the PU truck industry. Over half of Dodge PU sales are Cummins diesel. If we were given a cleaner burning diesel 5 years ago we would be ahead of the game right now. I doubt the hybrid would have ever made it to our shores. And you can forget about hybrid for anything utilitarian. What has been demonstrated so far is pathetic. 3 or 4 miles to the gallon better is not worth the extra money..... I don't think you will see a big market in hybrids larger than the Prius. Maybe a very small mini-van. The automakers are not going to subsidize this technology just to look good. They can make more money on diesel cars and don't have to give the long warranties mandated on the hybrids.
From my neck of the woods the cost of cars with diesel engines do indeed have a price premium. With the advent of higher priced fuels car dealers seem to be taking advantage of the situation. I am definitely on the fence on this one. Once there are more hybrid choices, the prices will eventually come down. In the meantime we only have very few diesel cars to choose from and Mercedes is quite expensive for the average person. VW has the TDI but from what I have been reading their reliability stinks. Furthermore you can get a Golf seriously discounted! Why pay a premium for a TDI?? Poorer performance? I'd like to get a Japanese made diesel and hope they bring one here by the time the clean diesel fuel arrives. Wishful thinking!
___With the turbo and Common rail HW not including future NOx and PM abatement costs, the diesel is already a $500 - $1,200 premium over and above its std. SI ICE counterpart. I know in some categories it is less but take a look at the Euro Ford, Toyota, and Honda websites for actual Diesel vs. SI ICE for direct/same car cost comparisons. The Hybrid drive trains appear to be a $3,000 - $6,000 premium. HCH vs. Civic or Escape HEV vs. the regular Escape. Combine the 2 (Diesel and Hybrid) for $3,500 - $7,200 and you eventually lose out to a std. SI ICE due to initial costs alone. It’s the premium that is the culprit. You can drive a Diesel Hybrid (Accord iCDTi - Hybridized) receiving 55 mpg 200,000 miles for ~ $7,000 in fuel. You can drive that same car (Accord I4 w/ Auto) w/ a SI ICE receiving 30 mpg 200,000 miles for $12,000 in fuel. The Diesel may last forever (or not given the all aluminum block design of the Accord diesel) but the Hybrid pack won’t and this includes no PM or NOx traps or ability for Autostop/EV mode(s) given this is not a Diesel’s strong point. This is like driving the PZEV based Accord for free for 200,000 or more miles at $2.00/gallon fuel costs.
___The item not discussed here is the diesel’s Thermal efficiency. 40 - 45% is/will be the norm. Even an Atkinsonized ICE like that of the Prius II is good for only about 37%. That is the SI ICE’s Achilles heel in this comparison.
Be sure to check out our Town Hall chat lineup for Tuesdays... First up, talk the latest in new automotive technology during the Hybrid Vehicles Chat from 12-1pmPT/3-4pm ET NOTE: This is a NEW time slot for this week!
I'd also like some diesel facts... like real-world spreadsheets (ongoing collections of actual MPG data). Having other facts, like maintenance costs and compression loss after 200,000 miles would be beneficial too... since without stuff of that nature helps support the "reliability" claims.
My spreadsheets are very informal (no excel for me). I've got about 7 pages of notebook pages recording fuel purchases for my '00 TDI Jetta. Lowest I can spot is 39mpg, highest 54mpg. Averaging 10 of the last lines, my average is 47mpg. I generally run swiftly, 75mph is my usual cruise, sometimes much higher. I don't typicaly drive the same routes regular enough to say I drive xx% highway, xx% city. I'd say my last 10 trips have been 40% highway, 40% hilly rural state routes, 15% suburban, and 5% city.
My maintenance expenses through current (84,600 miles):
$307 for oil changes, fuel filters, air filters, and cabin filters. That's parts alone, I did the work myself post 24k miles. Service was free on my Jetta for the first 24k miles.
Tires, replaced at 54k miles $329.
Tires, purchased snow tires and matching alloy rims at 60k miles $570
MAF sensor replaced at 72k miles, $114.
Rear brake pads and rotors at 82k miles,(could have turned rotors but I prefer new ones), $129.
Replaced battery (last week, preventative), $59.
I've also replaced the suspension at 30k miles but it was to upgrade to sport springs/struts.
The only warranty repairs were for two power window motors, one at 19k miles, the other at 42k miles (out of warranty, but covered). No problems since.
What I am saying is there are many new vehicles on the market that have a 4 EPA rating. Many are Toyotas, Matrix for example. Most of them put out as much or more CO2. I think VW TDI vehicles are a good alternative to the very limited availability of the Prius, right now today, not next year or the year after. And diesels get better mileage than any straight gas vehicle in any given class. What is hard to understand about that? So maybe they pollute a bit more, they use much less of our oil and if you are real gungho you can run them on old discarded McDonald's cooking oil. Try burning french fry oil in your Prius.
Comments
YMMV,
MidCow
Volume is meaningless when dealing with electricity. Instead, it is measured with respect to power.
For Prius, it has a 50kW BRUSHLESS AC and a 10kW BRUSHLESS AC.
For Civic-Hybrid, it has a 10kW BRUSHLESS DC.
It also takes into account the voltage feeding it, which isn't necessarily the same as what the battery-pack supplies.
For Prius, the DC current from the 203.6-volt battery-pack is converted to 500-volts of AC for use by that bigger electric-motor.
For Civic-Hybrid, the DC current is taken directly from the 144-volt battery-pack unchanged.
JOHN
Hybrid technology... particularly the variant coming in the RX400H and Highlander... not only improves fuel economy, emissions, and performance... but also allows for superior handling, convenience, etc... which are a function of Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive. In Japan, the self-parking Prius was an easy feat because the tech was already in the car... there was no 'mechanism' required for the self-parking technology... the electric power steering required for the tech was integral to the Prius's fly-by-wire hybrid technology.
"In electricity, power is usually expressed in kilowatts; energy is usually expressed in kilowatt-hours."
My point was that cubic Liters aor cubic inches of ICE engine dipslacement is meaningless in measuring engine size. You understood that point.
The point is that the engine category, like EPA measurement, based soley on ICE displacement size is again meaningless in today's world. Why you ask? Because the Prius 1.5 Liter Atkinson motor alone would have very low take-off torque and would probably not be acceptable to most consumers, even you.
Now concerning the conversion, the Prius converts to a higher voltage so that smaller wires can be used. Remember watts equals voltage times current ( making the assumption that the angle between voltage is zer0 degrees(0), i.e. pure resistance without capacituive or inductive components). At the same watt power then when you increase the voltage you decrease the current. Loower current requires smaller wires. As a secondary benfit is is easier to regulate the higher voltage.
YMMV,
MidCow
dave
When you are talking about 10,000 volts you are thinking of the old condensor coil spark plugs and the condensor and contacts did need to be replaced every 10,000 miles or so.
YMMV,
MidCow
Still, that's a big reason cars use 12V , normally. Much harder to have electrical "leakage." I know a lot of manutacturers are looking at moving to 42V for the same reason ( more juice through a smaller wire ). I'm a little suprised by 500v. Sure, it's not 250,000 volts, but it may be enough to jump if a fault develops in the insulation. But i'm sure toyota did a lot of research on it.
dave
That type of hybrid where the engine is never mechanically connected to the wheels is called a "Series Type" hybrid. When the fuel-motor and electric motor are both connected at the same time, its called a "Parallel Type" hybrid, like the Prius and Insight. Chrysler demonstrated a different parallel hybrid with a Durango SUV that had the V6 driving one axle and the electric motor on the other doing the regenerative braking. They claimed V8 performance on V6 fuel. It was still a gas guzzler compared even a normal sedan such as an Accord or Camry!
The Series hybrid drive-train as you described is used for all train locomotives in North America, except there are no batteries. Just a huge diesel engine and generator which drives multiple electric motors (each train wheel is directly mounted on the axle of the motor).
Our newest ferries on the coast here also feature diesel-electric power with electric motors on all 4 corners and a drive system that can rotate each propellor a full 360 degrees ... something that is difficult with mechical drive. Another feature is that there are 3 engines, but only 2 used for normal operation. Not only is it fault tolerant, but the boat is never out of service for an engine rebuild ... they simply cycle which motors are active and which one is idle and available to be worked on.
But again, no batteries.
I think that what you were suggesting was to take the best design for an all electric car, and then add a tiny motor as a generator so you never have to plug it in.
That's an approach that I've thought would be great for a light-duty errand/grocery-getter vehicle of minimal weight. I was also wondering about one that ran off propane (the same tank as a gas B-B-Q) because it burns cleaner ... minimizing the emissions for the car.
BTW: The army is testing a new vehicle using exactly the design you mentioned. Of course, their engine is a larger diesel because its an armoured troop-carrier type thing, but by building the motors into the 4 wheels they escape the mechanical limitations of drive-shafts and such.
The benefits of running cables to wheels over driveshafts are:
- tighter turning for better maneuverability
- more wheel travel for better off-road capabilities
> Try to drive a hybrid at 20 below zero...
-20C happens a lot, here in Minnesota. No big deal.
-18F happened last year. It wasn't a big deal either.
> Do you know how much a liter of...
Local taxes don't help the big picture much.
> Diesel technology has improved over the last decade.
Yet an automatic in mixed driving still can't get MPG as good as a HSD hybrid.
> low sulphur diesel
Along with hardware improvements, clean diesel may not be able to achieve the SULEV emission rating. But even if it does, that hardware adds to the cost of the vehicle.
JOHN
Majority of diesel passenger cars sold have been equipped with manual transmission. Until 1998 an automatic was not even an option on a VW TDI. Reality is that 42 mpg is common with an auto TDI in mixed driving and 47 mpg is common with manual in mixed driving. This is better than reported (in the press) mpg for mixed driving with HSD.
But that is *NOT* what the general population wants.
Sales clearly indicate that a solution for "joe average" must be an automatic.
This is not a topic of debate. It is a fact. Only enthusiasts want a manual. Learn to accept that reality.
JOHN
A single report, with obvious measurement flaws, does not consititute a true representation of what actual owners get... especially when the data wasn't even generated by an owner.
Anyone can rig a single event (just like that article) to make the results appear favorable.
Try a year-long steady in mixed driving instead. Results favor HSD highly that way.
JOHN
I'd like you to show me figures where TDIs and diesels in general are being equipped with auto tranny's in far greater numbers than manual transmissions.
"But that is *NOT* what the general population wants."
Too bad the automotive industry has made the general population (as you call them) lazy.
"Only enthusiasts want a manual."
WOW! So I'm an enthusiast? I thought I just acheived greater driving satisfaction by shifting the car myself. I didn't realize this made me an enthusiast. As far as the general population wanting an automatic, I think I've been over this before, I own two automatics because there was NO OPTION for a manual tranny, if there were the option for manual on my two auto models, I would have seriously considered them. But left with no option, it means I was forced by the manufacturer to purchase an auto (not because I, as average joe, needed auto as a solution, but because I, as average joe, was not allowed nor given the option to purchase an manual).
Since the argument is that "joe average" will assumably switch from gas to diesel, the statistics for current gas purchase choices is what shows their preference.
> So I'm an enthusiast?
Correct. You are clearly not representative of any type of majority and far from being "joe average".
> Too bad the automotive industry has made the general population (as you call them) lazy.
Implying a meaning is NOT appropriate. I suggest you retract that comment.
I did not in any way, shape, or form called anyone lazy. In fact, if you read previous posts you'll see that I clearly pointed out how an automatic delivers greater torque than a manual transmission... hence a strong appeal factor.
JOHN
The 90% that already drive an automatic will continue to drive one.
No change is required is gain the MPG (and emissions) benefit from switching to a hybrid.
JOHN
I think it is fair to say you do not represent "Joe Average either" From the sales I would say Joe average drives an Accord or Camry. And even if he wanted to join your very small elite group he would not be allowed in for a couple years. In light of the fact that the Prius is not available to the masses, we would like an alternative. That is where cars like the VW TDI come in. whether we get a stick or auto seems a bit irrelevant to the superior fuel mileage the diesel offers over the average gas vehicle in it's respective class.
99% of the vehicles on the road are NOT hybrids.
Very few will make the change to "benefit" from switching to an overpriced hybrid.
Since I never made that claim, I fail to see a point.
In fact, I have done just the opposite. Several times I have pointed out that even though I'm getting MPG in the 50's, the average joe is more likely to get the upper 40's.
> From the sales I would say Joe average drives an Accord or Camry.
Why are you abruptly changing the subject?
No one was discussing vehicle type or class. In fact, we weren't even talking about vehicles. The topic was and still is about propulsion technologies. That means TDI verses HSD.
JOHN
I welcome discussions from the 2007 perspective.
By then, the production & penetration of HSD will be very widespread.
The competition will have some interesting hybrids available too.
Bring it on.
JOHN
You are the one that changed the subject. The subject is diesel vs Hybrid. My point is that hybrid is NOT an option right now so give us vehicles that are available now. And the lame argument about emissions is not valid. The VW TDI is somewhere in the middle of the new cars on the road today and puts out less CO2. They also use far less of our precious oil. You continually talk about what will be in the future and not give credence to what is available today. You and a few others have hybrids and are very pleased with them. There are thousands of people that are not able to buy one. They have as much right to own an economical car as you do.
Prove that it is not "valid".
You are directly contradicting that EPA report. How can you do that?
Explain your vague dismissal.
JOHN
Unfortunately, you can't get it in a car at this time.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
___With the turbo and Common rail HW not including future NOx and PM abatement costs, the diesel is already a $500 - $1,200 premium over and above its std. SI ICE counterpart. I know in some categories it is less but take a look at the Euro Ford, Toyota, and Honda websites for actual Diesel vs. SI ICE for direct/same car cost comparisons. The Hybrid drive trains appear to be a $3,000 - $6,000 premium. HCH vs. Civic or Escape HEV vs. the regular Escape. Combine the 2 (Diesel and Hybrid) for $3,500 - $7,200 and you eventually lose out to a std. SI ICE due to initial costs alone. It’s the premium that is the culprit. You can drive a Diesel Hybrid (Accord iCDTi - Hybridized) receiving 55 mpg 200,000 miles for ~ $7,000 in fuel. You can drive that same car (Accord I4 w/ Auto) w/ a SI ICE receiving 30 mpg 200,000 miles for $12,000 in fuel. The Diesel may last forever (or not given the all aluminum block design of the Accord diesel) but the Hybrid pack won’t and this includes no PM or NOx traps or ability for Autostop/EV mode(s) given this is not a Diesel’s strong point. This is like driving the PZEV based Accord for free for 200,000 or more miles at $2.00/gallon fuel costs.
___The item not discussed here is the diesel’s Thermal efficiency. 40 - 45% is/will be the norm. Even an Atkinsonized ICE like that of the Prius II is good for only about 37%. That is the SI ICE’s Achilles heel in this comparison.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
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My spreadsheets are very informal (no excel for me). I've got about 7 pages of notebook pages recording fuel purchases for my '00 TDI Jetta. Lowest I can spot is 39mpg, highest 54mpg. Averaging 10 of the last lines, my average is 47mpg. I generally run swiftly, 75mph is my usual cruise, sometimes much higher. I don't typicaly drive the same routes regular enough to say I drive xx% highway, xx% city. I'd say my last 10 trips have been 40% highway, 40% hilly rural state routes, 15% suburban, and 5% city.
My maintenance expenses through current (84,600 miles):
$307 for oil changes, fuel filters, air filters, and cabin filters. That's parts alone, I did the work myself post 24k miles. Service was free on my Jetta for the first 24k miles.
Tires, replaced at 54k miles $329.
Tires, purchased snow tires and matching alloy rims at 60k miles $570
MAF sensor replaced at 72k miles, $114.
Rear brake pads and rotors at 82k miles,(could have turned rotors but I prefer new ones), $129.
Replaced battery (last week, preventative), $59.
I've also replaced the suspension at 30k miles but it was to upgrade to sport springs/struts.
The only warranty repairs were for two power window motors, one at 19k miles, the other at 42k miles (out of warranty, but covered). No problems since.