For the 2004 model year in the United States, combined diesel sales of Golf, Jetta, Beetle, Passat, and Touareg will only total 34,000. That's it! For Prius in the US, sales will come to 47,000
2004 YTD for Prius 21,783 and only 9,865 sold by June of 2003. If you subtract the Prius cars that were sold in CA, NY & whatever other states limit the sales of diesel cars. You have a much more accurate picture of the popularity of the Prius vs VW TDI. So again your figures are made up with no substantiating evidence. In fact I would say the sales of Prius would fall behind VW TDI in CA if they were allowed to be sold. As you can see the sales for VW was much higher in 2003 when the TDI was available in CA.
It would be great if Toyota or for that matter other manufactures could sense the loose gas cap.
Car owners would welcome this "Please Check Your Gas Cap Tightness". There could even be a new universal symbol of a threaded cap.
This occurs much more often than you think and while it could be an actual problem the most likely cause is a loose gas cap. It seems the better way rather than turning on an engine light warning or error code would be to warn the user once, then show the code if the condition persists.
It would be very easy and inexpensive to implement and would be welcomed by all.
YMMV,
MidCow
P.S. - Gas prices dropped another penny but still 20 cents higher than this time last year! Go Nuclear!
But the resale factor that gets overlooked (or ignored) is that there are so few diesels available in the first place. That definitely contributes to the higher than usual resale value.
This is precisely the reason Hybrids are selling over MSRP. But I don't entirely agree with you about this being the only reason why diesels retain value better than gassers. Longevity is also an issue. It'd be interesting to see how diesels hold their value compared to gassers in Europe, where more than 50% of cars are diesels. Does anyone have an idea ?
Hybrids are selling for over MSRP because the factories are making very few of them on purpose. They lose money on every one made, but want to appear friendly to the environment, so they sell 20K or so (Toyota) of the suckers and the big networks show them all over the nightly news (free advertising!!!) because there is a waiting list.
I would be very interested in seeing the resale of gassers vs diesels in Europe. I would guess the gassers have higher resale, but that's pretty much a guess based on my good ole USA predjudices.
"Large numbers of new Prius owners report the engine warning light coming, due to excess sealant in the exhaust system that burns off during the first few hundreds miles. They don't realize it is a normal process that requires no maintenance at all, though."
So if it's a "normal process" why does the warning light come on? that doesn't make sense.
YTD has absolutely nothing to do with "2004 model year".
And the popularity picture has nothing to do with actual availability. No matter anyway, factoring in the backorder list of pending Prius deliveries throws the balance way over in favor of Prius.
By the way 45 states limit sales due to the emissions being so much worse than the average gas vehicles. The other 5 prohibit sales entirely. So basically, you have nothing to argue about until diesel (hardware & fuel) gets cleaner.
There is a hidden motive & benefit to this strategy that has obviously been overlooked.
That no-charge visit to the dealer results in a building of report. While also reduceing the intimidation about Prius being different, it gets you familiar with the services the dealer has to offer.
Step back and look at the big picture.
Demonstrating that you can come to the dealer about any concern you have, no matter how trivial, is a priceless experience in the end. It's how reputations are built and how repeat business is established.
They did not want to intimidate those that fear technology
________________________________________
Ummmmm....I don't think anyone who fears technolgy would buy a Prius. Its a really high tech car.
I think 'yota screwed up on this (as did many others mind you, a loose cap will set off the check engine light in a lot of different cars) and should fix it. As should everyone else.
I'm not trying to be nasty or anything, but I hate when companies throw BS like this out instead of fixing a simple problem.
They have still only sold 21K as of June of this year. You keep saying what the factory predicted a US figure of 47K. So just another lie by Toyota. I trust Autosite over Toyota "hype" any day of the week. As you always say but never do, Show me the Data.
> I'm not trying to be nasty or anything, but I hate when companies throw BS like this out instead of fixing a simple problem.
Please provide an actual example. That common is to vague.
Other vehicles simply ignore the fact that the gas cap is loose. The fact that Prius senses it is a plus, even though the method is less than ideal. And yes, it is noted in the Owner's Manual.
> if I make repeat visits to the dealer for petty BS
Then read the Owner's Manual to save the trip. The troubleshooting section is pretty simple. Or just be more attentive when filling the tank. After all, fuel is a rather dangerous substance.
And don't overlook the fact that this is a SINGLE problem. If you have to go back to the dealer for making the same mistake more than once...
Then read the Owner's Manual to save the trip. The troubleshooting section is pretty simple.
Why pay for all the fancy electronic gadgets that the Prius has, if they don't tell you what you need to know. Numerous complaints of the vehicle stopping in the middle of the freeway is not what I consider trivial problems. It could mean causing a serious accident. And trying to read the manual while driving 70 mph down the Interstate is not too smart.
Other vehicles simply ignore the fact that the gas cap is loose __________________________________
Not true. Many OBDII cars will set a check engine code for this. It's a common problem that has, unfortunately, led many people to just ignore the light.
"If the Prius is so smart why doesn't it tell the owner on that fancy readout that the gas cap is loose? "
Many cars have this issue; my CR-V is one. The owner's manual says to be sure to tighten the gas cap until it clicks several times. I think that a warning light would be overkill.
I'm sorry John, but what kind of rapport is the owner building with Toyota? "Thank you for wasting my time and yours"?
If I had to keep taking my car in for "nothings", then eventually I would become disillusioned with that vehicle and manufacturer....no matter how cordial and helpful the service staff.
I had an SHO* that was in for Service calls 13 times (various lights, warnings, and things not working) the first 12 months I owned it. I'd say that a quarter of the times (25%) it actually required repair...the other 75% of the time was for minor tweaking, handled in 5-10 minutes by the service staff. I understand that 13 times is extreme, but by the fourth or fifth time I had already made up my mind that I would not only not purchase another Taurus (even though mine was more than likely an oddity and didn't reflect the average Taurus), but I would not purchase another Ford car (trucks are another story).
You see, four or five trips for "nothings" and I was fed up with Ford. And I had an excellent rapport with the Service manager and staff. BIG PICTURE....FORD lost a car customer.
* I realize that an SHO is not a Hybrid or Diesel, but I am using this as an example of taking a vehicle in for servicing when "nothing" is required to repair it.
I accept that. Now if they sell 6300 more 2004 models here they will have reached the number they promised for the US. You did say a few posts back that they were about done with the 2004 model, and the 2005s would be coming out.
Shipping from Japan, then to regional, then to the dealers, plus adding options at the various stops, plus prepping the car itself at the dealer takes over a month.
___Sorry I can’t add much to the fray right now but in regards to the gas cap CEL, my new $9,600 Ranger XLT has a light just for that purpose I have never tested it out of course but it’s there plain as day and the owners manual explains all one would ever need to know on how to fix this annoyance if it ever did come in. I have never seen this on any other car I have driven so maybe this is a new feature to be added to all automobiles in the future?
___In regards to the Hybrid vs. Diesel, that Accord Saloon w/ the 2.2 L iCDTi Honda built is one tough animal to beat in comparison to just about anything Hybrid imho.
Hey... just came back from a two week trip to Europe. Tons of diesels on the road there!! In Germany it seems that over 50% were diesel! We rented from Hertz and we were stuck with a Ford Focus. The European version is nicer but it's still a lousy car! We ventured on to the autobahn from Rostock to Berlin and were driving about 115 MPH (would not suggest that speed for long in a Focus!!).. anyway... I saw tons of TDI's easily cruising at 120-130 with no problem. Didn't ever see a hybrid as they'd have to stay in the right lane for sure!!! I'm definitely sold on diesels. Bring em on!!!
A friend of mine was recently in germany and rented a c-class diesel. Said he got 40mpg despite significant time at 100+MPH.
BMW is considering bringing the diesels here for the 2006/2007 model lines. I'm sending them another letter telling them i'll buy a saab unless they bring the 330d here.
I also saw that volvo is considering producing a hybrid with similar technology to the escape.
___Given Volvo is owned by Ford and they (Volvo) now have access to the same Toyota cross licensing/patent(s) or whatever you call it, I would imagine they are seriously looking into it
___I too would love to get my hands on the Honda Accord Saloon iCDTi for fuel economy and performance reasons. A low 9 second car with the capability to achieve > Honda Civic Hybrid fuel economy? That would be simply amazing
I did some fresh testing this morning since I was struggling to stay awake. My modified Jetta TDI ran a 0-60 in 8.6, 30-50 in 4.4, and 50-70 in 4.7
These are with the stop-watch on my cellular phone and me running both, so they might not be as accurate as the scientific testers. But it gives you a good idea of what these diesels are capable of if not restricted in the manner VW sells them here. I've just turned 86k miles this morning as well.
I probably encountered the 130 hp TDIs as these cars were really moving. I wonder what VW does to restrict their horsepower in the US. 30 HP is a significant gain if it can be achieved with minimal fuss.
Be sure to check out our Town Hall chat lineup for Tuesdays... everyone is welcome and ALL things automotive (and some not-so-automotive topics) are fair game! Stop in tonight and get to know some of your fellow Town Hall residents better. We may even play a little automotive trivia!
Getting things started, from 6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET, If your passion is Mazda or you just like to go ZOOM ZOOM, the place to be is the Mazda Mania chat.
I probably encountered the 130 hp TDIs as these cars were really moving. I wonder what VW does to restrict their horsepower in the US. 30 HP is a significant gain if it can be achieved with minimal fuss.
The biggest difference is the euro cars have larger injectors. I've swapped mine ($250) and adjusted some settings via VAGCOM.
A modified Jetta, should we compare it to a modified Prius. And I thought the waters were muddied before !
I'd be curious to know what modifications can be made to the Prius and the cost involved. Can you improve performance by 25% for less than $300 while not changing the economy? Or were you talking about adding a spoiler?
The biggest difference is the euro cars have larger injectors
And a different ECU. Even the 90hp/150lbsft A4 TDIs in the US produce 115hp/230lbsft with a chip that can be installed for about $300 or so, with NO fuel mileage penalty.
Have you noticed an appreciable increase in power since you swapped out the injectors? Why can't the cars sold here have the same power? Is it emissions related? TIA.
Have you noticed an appreciable increase in power since you swapped out the injectors?
Yes is an understatement. Did you see my performance numbers? They're substantially lower than C&D's most recent test of a 100hp auto TDI. I believe the reason is two-fold. One is emissions related, they have to gag these motors to meet the requirement. It is also most likely because of our fuel which is a lower quality, lower cetane fuel than what europe carries. I buy better fuel (50 cetane, 30ppm sulphur) or you can treat the fuel with a cetane booster (although the better fuel is leaps and bounds better than junk fuel with the booster). Since these fuels are not the standard, they can't release the cars here for sale. So they artificially gag the injectors, reprogram the ECU's, and sell them as rather slow economy cars. Although even stock, they do drive much better than their performance specs reveal. I came from a 195hp V6 Camry into my Jetta and did not have to drastically change my driving style. Dead-start acceleration to highway speeds was rather slow at times. With the performance mods, I feel the car is quicker than the Camry and much easier to drive. I'm doing 150 miles of 2-lane hilly state routes daily and have no problems passing anyone I want even up a hill. The big difference is instead of averaging 23mpg, I'm averaging 44-47mpg.
I just think most of these comparisons are for the latest/greatest vs the old-tech gagged diesels that are limited by our dirty fuel standards.
Thanks so much for all that information. I am truly looking forward to the day that better diesel fuel will be available for purchase. Perhaps then, that will open the diesel market up in the US. I don't know how difficult it will be for Americans to grasp the concept of how efficient diesels really are. Since the hybrid is relatively new technology, it seems to be doing rather well. I guess we have to take a look and see attitude. In the meantime, I guess I can just drool at all the wonderful diesel cars I took pictures of in Europe. As an aside, I spoke with a nice British couple who recently purchased an Audi A2 (looks quite similar to the 04 Prius!). They have a diesel engine in it (1.6 I believe) and they absolutely love it. I fell in love with the car when our cruise ship stopped in Stockholm. Ugh.... I can't wait till they eventually come here. Imagine an A2 with quattro and diesel power?
This is a dumb question (and from an engineer nonetheless) but how do you find who sells the better fuel.'
It's not easy! It is becoming more popular though as we get closer and closer to the deadline for low-sulphur diesel. BP/Amoco has a product called diesel supreme. It seems to only be offered in some south/mid western states. I believe Sunoco and Exxon also have a premium product. However, I've found that even stations that have "premium, supreme, etc" on the pump doesn't necessarily mean that's what's in them. Diesel is not regulated like gas, where 93 octane is what you expect to get. I have actually called distributors (usually listed under Gas:Bulk in yellow pages) and figured out where they deliver the premium product. Some do not deliver it at all to retail stations. Generally you can tell by looking/smelling once you know what to look for. BP Diesel Supreme has little/no odor (less than gasoline by far), is colorless (looks like water) and the foam looks like you're pouring a glass of sprite.
I have actually been filling my car at the supreme pump (with the car running) and heard the difference when the supreme hits the injectors. It quiets down and smooths out the idle very obviously. There are also different grades of #2 diesel. I find BP #2 to be a very good fuel as well, but it's also not guaranteed to be sold at a BP/Amoco dealers. Private owned BP/Amoco's can buy their fuel from whomever they choose after buying a minimum # of gallons from BP. Corporate BP's carry the BP fuels.
In other words, the whole system is a wreck. Hopefully the standardized low-sulphur fuel will help this along. My car runs perfectly acceptable on the cheapest truck-stop diesel, however it runs much quieter, smoother, and performs better with the higher quality fuel. With my mods, I will get smoke from the exhaust on hard acceleration if I'm running really junky fuel. With the supreme, there's never any smoke even on a cold start-up and the exhaust smell is extremely light even on a very cold day.
Here is a locator for BP ECD-1 ULSD. I have a SOCO station very close to my house. I use it in my Kubota tractor. It is more expensive than red dye diesel. I just think it is better for all of us to use it.
I knew there had to be a simpler solution than all that hybrid gas electric CVT hoopla. Leave it to American ingenuity. No wonder Ford is dragging their feet on the Escape Hybrid. Who would buy one if given the choice between an Escape & an Expedition with both getting the same mileage and about the same price.
Let's see em build it. Maybe American car manufacturers will follow Toyota's lead and replace their auto trannies with the brilliant design of the Toyota E-CVT in the Prius. Quite a few less moving parts and no shift shock.
This is indeed a clever idea. I want to see it actually pan out though--after all, there will be loss in transmitting the fluid pressure to the drive wheels, and the amount of energy stored will be low.. Basically giving an acceleration boost based on the last braking operation.
When i see an explorer really doing that--then i'll be impressed. Those costs ( mature full-colume production ) and economy figures are just projections.
I agree with the last couple posts, diesel hydraulic hybrids sound good but like the old saying says show me the beef (okay that was a hamburger joint but you get the drift)
Hydraulic motors don't need a CVT or transmission, that is the simple beauty of it. I will be skeptical till I see them also. It is not new technology, it has been used for years in heavy equipment. Just as the centrifugal clutch that the CVT is based on, is not new technology. Just a new adaptation which Honda also uses.
___I love the hydraulic hybrid idea as it has been discussed all the way back to the Super Car project with Mr. Gray’s ideas over at the EPA This is where the practical app actually comes from as he is the practical patent holder in which Ford purchased the rights for With that, there isn’t a seal made that will hold back 5,000 + PSIG while being exposed to the elements like the underside of our automobiles are exposed. Even under lab conditions, those seals are going to go and when they do, you either have a puking mess all at once or just a dribble that seems to go on forever. In other words, it isn’t about the tech as America runs on pumps and gear oil but its about the seals and unfortunately with all of our technology, 5,000 #’s just likes to find its way back toward atmospheric no matter how damned good we are about telling it not too :-( I am not entirely hybrid fan either given the expense but electricity is a lot cleaner then oil is about all I can add
Same as the HEV, this technology is not exclusive to any engine. It can be applied both equally either on Diesel or Gas engine.... of course, same as a HEV I would prefer a diesel version if one is offered.
On the other hand, it looks like it is just offering the same practical advantage as say, a Honda Civic Hybrid using ultracapacitors. Wouldn't as Wayne pointed out, that be a cleaner solution?
Comments
2004 YTD for Prius 21,783 and only 9,865 sold by June of 2003. If you subtract the Prius cars that were sold in CA, NY & whatever other states limit the sales of diesel cars. You have a much more accurate picture of the popularity of the Prius vs VW TDI. So again your figures are made up with no substantiating evidence. In fact I would say the sales of Prius would fall behind VW TDI in CA if they were allowed to be sold. As you can see the sales for VW was much higher in 2003 when the TDI was available in CA.
http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsedan.asp
It would be great if Toyota or for that matter other manufactures could sense the loose gas cap.
Car owners would welcome this "Please Check Your Gas Cap Tightness". There could even be a new universal symbol of a threaded cap.
This occurs much more often than you think and while it could be an actual problem the most likely cause is a loose gas cap. It seems the better way rather than turning on an engine light warning or error code would be to warn the user once, then show the code if the condition persists.
It would be very easy and inexpensive to implement and would be welcomed by all.
YMMV,
MidCow
P.S. - Gas prices dropped another penny but still 20 cents higher than this time last year! Go Nuclear!
This is precisely the reason Hybrids are selling over MSRP. But I don't entirely agree with you about this being the only reason why diesels retain value better than gassers. Longevity is also an issue.
It'd be interesting to see how diesels hold their value compared to gassers in Europe, where more than 50% of cars are diesels. Does anyone have an idea ?
I would be very interested in seeing the resale of gassers vs diesels in Europe. I would guess the gassers have higher resale, but that's pretty much a guess based on my good ole USA predjudices.
Turboshadow
So if it's a "normal process" why does the warning light come on? that doesn't make sense.
YTD has absolutely nothing to do with "2004 model year".
And the popularity picture has nothing to do with actual availability. No matter anyway, factoring in the backorder list of pending Prius deliveries throws the balance way over in favor of Prius.
By the way 45 states limit sales due to the emissions being so much worse than the average gas vehicles. The other 5 prohibit sales entirely. So basically, you have nothing to argue about until diesel (hardware & fuel) gets cleaner.
JOHN
That no-charge visit to the dealer results in a building of report. While also reduceing the intimidation about Prius being different, it gets you familiar with the services the dealer has to offer.
Step back and look at the big picture.
Demonstrating that you can come to the dealer about any concern you have, no matter how trivial, is a priceless experience in the end. It's how reputations are built and how repeat business is established.
JOHN
________________________________________
Ummmmm....I don't think anyone who fears technolgy would buy a Prius. Its a really high tech car.
I think 'yota screwed up on this (as did many others mind you, a loose cap will set off the check engine light in a lot of different cars) and should fix it. As should everyone else.
I'm not trying to be nasty or anything, but I hate when companies throw BS like this out instead of fixing a simple problem.
Turboshadow
Fortunately, that claim was *NEVER* actually made.
Reread my post, it clearly say "contributes to", which means it one of several factors not the only factor.
JOHN
__________________________________________
No offense, but if I make repeat visits to the dealer for petty BS, I'm not buying that brand again.
Turboshadow
Please provide an actual example. That common is to vague.
Other vehicles simply ignore the fact that the gas cap is loose. The fact that Prius senses it is a plus, even though the method is less than ideal. And yes, it is noted in the Owner's Manual.
JOHN
Then read the Owner's Manual to save the trip. The troubleshooting section is pretty simple. Or just be more attentive when filling the tank. After all, fuel is a rather dangerous substance.
And don't overlook the fact that this is a SINGLE problem. If you have to go back to the dealer for making the same mistake more than once...
JOHN
The troubleshooting section is pretty simple.
Why pay for all the fancy electronic gadgets that the Prius has, if they don't tell you what you need to know. Numerous complaints of the vehicle stopping in the middle of the freeway is not what I consider trivial problems. It could mean causing a serious accident. And trying to read the manual while driving 70 mph down the Interstate is not too smart.
_____________________________________
I did. You said:
"Toyota intentionally restrained the interface.
They did not want to intimidate those that fear technology"
I assumed that was what Toyota said. Maybe YOU said it, not Toyota. If Toyota said it, it is BS and they should fix it.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Other vehicles simply ignore the fact that the gas cap is loose
__________________________________
Not true. Many OBDII cars will set a check engine code for this. It's a common problem that has, unfortunately, led many people to just ignore the light.
Turboshadow
Many cars have this issue; my CR-V is one. The owner's manual says to be sure to tighten the gas cap until it clicks several times. I think that a warning light would be overkill.
If I had to keep taking my car in for "nothings", then eventually I would become disillusioned with that vehicle and manufacturer....no matter how cordial and helpful the service staff.
I had an SHO* that was in for Service calls 13 times (various lights, warnings, and things not working) the first 12 months I owned it. I'd say that a quarter of the times (25%) it actually required repair...the other 75% of the time was for minor tweaking, handled in 5-10 minutes by the service staff. I understand that 13 times is extreme, but by the fourth or fifth time I had already made up my mind that I would not only not purchase another Taurus (even though mine was more than likely an oddity and didn't reflect the average Taurus), but I would not purchase another Ford car (trucks are another story).
You see, four or five trips for "nothings" and I was fed up with Ford. And I had an excellent rapport with the Service manager and staff. BIG PICTURE....FORD lost a car customer.
* I realize that an SHO is not a Hybrid or Diesel, but I am using this as an example of taking a vehicle in for servicing when "nothing" is required to repair it.
Very good point one that we totally agree on. Gasoline is much more dangerous than DIESEL!!
Let's remember which discussion we are in - helps everyone out.
Now I know you are ignoring what I post.
Once again, I said "2004 model year", not YTD.
Here's the data...
mon yr sales YTD
Jul 04 5,230 27,013
Jun 04 4,219 21,783
May 04 3,962 17,564
Apr 04 3,684 13,602
Mar 04 3,778 9,918
Feb 04 3,215 6,140
Jan 04 2,925 2,925
...plus the 13,694 Prius (2004 model only) from 2003 equals:
40707
See! Told ya. Deliveries in Aug & Sept will easily total 47,000.
JOHN
Shipping from Japan, then to regional, then to the dealers, plus adding options at the various stops, plus prepping the car itself at the dealer takes over a month.
JOHN
___Sorry I can’t add much to the fray right now but in regards to the gas cap CEL, my new $9,600 Ranger XLT has a light just for that purpose I have never tested it out of course but it’s there plain as day and the owners manual explains all one would ever need to know on how to fix this annoyance if it ever did come in. I have never seen this on any other car I have driven so maybe this is a new feature to be added to all automobiles in the future?
___In regards to the Hybrid vs. Diesel, that Accord Saloon w/ the 2.2 L iCDTi Honda built is one tough animal to beat in comparison to just about anything Hybrid imho.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
BMW is considering bringing the diesels here for the 2006/2007 model lines. I'm sending them another letter telling them i'll buy a saab unless they bring the 330d here.
I also saw that volvo is considering producing a hybrid with similar technology to the escape.
dave
___Given Volvo is owned by Ford and they (Volvo) now have access to the same Toyota cross licensing/patent(s) or whatever you call it, I would imagine they are seriously looking into it
___I too would love to get my hands on the Honda Accord Saloon iCDTi for fuel economy and performance reasons. A low 9 second car with the capability to achieve > Honda Civic Hybrid fuel economy? That would be simply amazing
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
These are with the stop-watch on my cellular phone and me running both, so they might not be as accurate as the scientific testers. But it gives you a good idea of what these diesels are capable of if not restricted in the manner VW sells them here. I've just turned 86k miles this morning as well.
Getting things started, from 6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET, If your passion is Mazda or you just like to go ZOOM ZOOM, the place to be is the Mazda Mania chat.
Mazda Mania Chat Room
Imediately following from 7-8pm PT/10-11pm ET, talk the latest in new automotive technology during the Hybrid Vehicles Chat
Hybrid Vehicles Chat Room
The Town Hall chats are a great place to take these message board topics LIVE. Hope to see you there this week!
PF Flyer
Host
Pickups & News & Views Message Boards
The biggest difference is the euro cars have larger injectors. I've swapped mine ($250) and adjusted some settings via VAGCOM.
I'd be curious to know what modifications can be made to the Prius and the cost involved. Can you improve performance by 25% for less than $300 while not changing the economy? Or were you talking about adding a spoiler?
;-)
Turboshadow
And a different ECU. Even the 90hp/150lbsft A4 TDIs in the US produce 115hp/230lbsft with a chip that can be installed for about $300 or so, with NO fuel mileage penalty.
Yes is an understatement. Did you see my performance numbers? They're substantially lower than C&D's most recent test of a 100hp auto TDI. I believe the reason is two-fold. One is emissions related, they have to gag these motors to meet the requirement. It is also most likely because of our fuel which is a lower quality, lower cetane fuel than what europe carries. I buy better fuel (50 cetane, 30ppm sulphur) or you can treat the fuel with a cetane booster (although the better fuel is leaps and bounds better than junk fuel with the booster). Since these fuels are not the standard, they can't release the cars here for sale. So they artificially gag the injectors, reprogram the ECU's, and sell them as rather slow economy cars. Although even stock, they do drive much better than their performance specs reveal. I came from a 195hp V6 Camry into my Jetta and did not have to drastically change my driving style. Dead-start acceleration to highway speeds was rather slow at times. With the performance mods, I feel the car is quicker than the Camry and much easier to drive. I'm doing 150 miles of 2-lane hilly state routes daily and have no problems passing anyone I want even up a hill. The big difference is instead of averaging 23mpg, I'm averaging 44-47mpg.
I just think most of these comparisons are for the latest/greatest vs the old-tech gagged diesels that are limited by our dirty fuel standards.
I like the idea of the TDI with more power, but diesel fuel quality is suspect in my area. At least *I* am suspect of it, maybe wrongly so.
Turboshadow
It's not easy! It is becoming more popular though as we get closer and closer to the deadline for low-sulphur diesel. BP/Amoco has a product called diesel supreme. It seems to only be offered in some south/mid western states. I believe Sunoco and Exxon also have a premium product. However, I've found that even stations that have "premium, supreme, etc" on the pump doesn't necessarily mean that's what's in them. Diesel is not regulated like gas, where 93 octane is what you expect to get. I have actually called distributors (usually listed under Gas:Bulk in yellow pages) and figured out where they deliver the premium product. Some do not deliver it at all to retail stations. Generally you can tell by looking/smelling once you know what to look for. BP Diesel Supreme has little/no odor (less than gasoline by far), is colorless (looks like water) and the foam looks like you're pouring a glass of sprite.
I have actually been filling my car at the supreme pump (with the car running) and heard the difference when the supreme hits the injectors. It quiets down and smooths out the idle very obviously. There are also different grades of #2 diesel. I find BP #2 to be a very good fuel as well, but it's also not guaranteed to be sold at a BP/Amoco dealers. Private owned BP/Amoco's can buy their fuel from whomever they choose after buying a minimum # of gallons from BP. Corporate BP's carry the BP fuels.
In other words, the whole system is a wreck. Hopefully the standardized low-sulphur fuel will help this along. My car runs perfectly acceptable on the cheapest truck-stop diesel, however it runs much quieter, smoother, and performs better with the higher quality fuel. With my mods, I will get smoke from the exhaust on hard acceleration if I'm running really junky fuel. With the supreme, there's never any smoke even on a cold start-up and the exhaust smell is extremely light even on a very cold day.
Here is a locator for BP ECD-1 ULSD. I have a SOCO station very close to my house. I use it in my Kubota tractor. It is more expensive than red dye diesel. I just think it is better for all of us to use it.
http://www.ecdiesel.com/business/locator.asp
Lower maint. cost, simpler, lower production cost than electric hybrid.
When i see an explorer really doing that--then i'll be impressed. Those costs ( mature full-colume production ) and economy figures are just projections.
___I love the hydraulic hybrid idea as it has been discussed all the way back to the Super Car project with Mr. Gray’s ideas over at the EPA This is where the practical app actually comes from as he is the practical patent holder in which Ford purchased the rights for With that, there isn’t a seal made that will hold back 5,000 + PSIG while being exposed to the elements like the underside of our automobiles are exposed. Even under lab conditions, those seals are going to go and when they do, you either have a puking mess all at once or just a dribble that seems to go on forever. In other words, it isn’t about the tech as America runs on pumps and gear oil but its about the seals and unfortunately with all of our technology, 5,000 #’s just likes to find its way back toward atmospheric no matter how damned good we are about telling it not too :-( I am not entirely hybrid fan either given the expense but electricity is a lot cleaner then oil is about all I can add
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
On the other hand, it looks like it is just offering the same practical advantage as say, a Honda Civic Hybrid using ultracapacitors. Wouldn't as Wayne pointed out, that be a cleaner solution?