I suspected you didn't mean slow with black exhaust but thats what comes to mind, an old couple in a 1980 Benz with no air bags spewing black sooty exhaust laughing to them selves about all the money their saving by driving a 25 year old car. I like to save money as much as the next person but not by using 25 year old technology. Can see myself in a 2008 diesel burning ULSD though. (although by then hybrids will have a few more years under their belt)
I followed a bright yellow Bug TDI the other day through town. I did not see any exhaust when she pulled away from the lights. Nor did I see any tell tale black soot on the rear bumper. I have no idea what diesel she was burning as all types are still available in CA.
Diesel vs. hybrid is like power-steering versus automatic-transmission. They really are orthogonal items!
I believe that in the long-term, city vehicles will be a mix of pure electric/fuel-cell and also hybrids powered by turbo-diesel engines or possibly hydrogen. But they will have capacitors for energy storage, (or, in the case of hydrogen-powered cars, they may generate hydrogen from the regenerative energy). The batteries will be illegal due to environmental issues.
But for people who travel long distances, the turbo-diesel will be unbeatable. As MoparBud mentioned, the hybrid eqiupment is just dead weight that reduces mileage once the battery is depleted for long distances.
Currently, the "hybrid vs. diesel" argument depends on where you drive. Hybrids are ideal for stop-and-go. But my turbo-diesel blows past hybrids on the interstate and I'm still getting 50 MPG.
In the argument of "gasoline vs. diesel" diesel won that one a decade ago, and its just taking a while for the market to catch up to the technology (how long after the DVD appeared did the last VHS machine sell? They are still selling)
But gasoline will likely be made illegal in the future. It is terribly inefficient use of crude oil. One comparison (I can't remember where) says it takes 6x as much crude to make a gallon of gas than a gallon of diesel. This planet cannot afford to waste resources with gas.
NOTE that the high-octane gas used for airplanes is being phased out and new engine designs are diesel -- YES, DIESEL ENGINES FOR AIRPLANES!
Please tell me how many gas/hybrid airplanes designs there are.
FUTURE: Diesel/hybrid for city; pure diesel for highway. That's my engineering take on it. I suspect many will not agree, and markets also change based on mis-information (like "a diesel Passat costs $10k more" when in reality it is $300?) It will be interesting to see what happens. I'm suggesting a logical outcome based on scientific/engineering principles, but most of us still use MS Windows even though its a piece of
"The batteries will be illegal due to environmental issues."
I hope they eliminate lead acid battery from all the cars since they are toxic. NiMH batteries are much more environment ally friendly since Nickel isn't a heavy metal nor toxic. Li-ion and Li-Po battery technologies are even more environmentally friendly. So, I don't see batteries being illegal in the future.
I agree with you on Ultracapacitors and think they are the future for ICE-electric hybrids. One thing they need to overcome is the cost. Ultracapacitors that was used in Honda FCX is a bit more technologically advanced than Prius NiMH battery, in terms of Specific Power(W/kg) and internal resistence.
According to Sept issue of Automotive Engineering magazine from SAE, Honda's Ultracapacitors used in FCX has Specific Power of 1,500 W/kg vs. Prius NiMH of 1,300 W/kg. NiMH is not much behind Ultracapacitors and I am sure costs much much less.
"As MoparBud mentioned, the hybrid eqiupment is just dead weight that reduces mileage once the battery is depleted for long distances."
You can say the same thing to turbo-diesel cars on highway. Diesel car is carrying an oversized diesel engine with extra dead weight on highway since it only take about 15-20hp to maintain 60mph.
The fact that HSD enable Prius to downsize it's engine was completely ignored. The benefit of having electric motors allowed Prius to have ICE that output max of only 76hp!
HSD also completely eliminated the need for traditional transmission(manual or automatic). Hybrid drivetrain directly powers the wheels, bypassing energy loss in the traditional transmissions.
"Hybrids are ideal for stop-and-go."
Ever thought of the other way around? Stop-n-go is very wasteful for heavy diesel car. HSD can't improve much on the already pretty efficient highway driving. There is no way around the drag from the air that we breath.
"One comparison (I can't remember where) says it takes 6x as much crude to make a gallon of gas than a gallon of diesel."
Note, crude oil contains both diesel and gasoline among others. Depending on how much you refine it, you get less pure fuel(gasoline) than dirty fuel(diesel).
To me, this Diesel vs. Hybird is clearly "One powertrain vs. Duel powertrain". It is not gas vs. diesel or electric vs. diesel. Two heads are better than one; can't argue much against it. Since HSD is an extremely flexible design, diesel-electric HSD can be a quickly implemented(mostly software).
A hybrid that would give the most MPG would be diesel-electric with Ultracapacitors. The cost of such a hybrid would be very high, therefore, we will not see it for probably 5-10 years. Gas-electric HSD is the best solution available for now. I don't know if you are aware of it or not but Diesel-electric had failed already. 80mpg concept Supercars from the big three used diesel-electric design which used exotic materials(metal to save weight) never came out because of THE PRICE.
I read an article comparing energy use of a car vs environmental impact.
The study compared the energy use of a standardized car (91 taurus) vs its toxic emissions.
Most of the energy consumption of the car was during the operation of the car (driving) during the 120,000 mile expected lifespan. I'm not clear if this covers all the secondary and tertiary manufacturing processes.
However, most of the toxic emisisons were created during the manufacure and disposal of a vehicle. Since emissions criteria have progressed significantly since '91, i expect that this aspect is even more biased towards manufacture.
I think the points out the fact that, if your car is tight and efficient, the best thing you can do for the environment is probably keep it in good running order as long as you can.
Volvo, i know, considers manufacturing emissions a great deal and ships cars with environmental impact statements. I see that the total of co2 emitted during the manufacture process dropped from 750 tonnes in 96 to 250 in '99. That can cover a lot of driving.
Toyota is pursuing bioplastics, which (may) have more of an environmental impact than hybridization.
Wow, a new Bug in California? Difficult to accomplish...
He didn't say anything about "new". They sold TDI's in cali until 2004. I get very little smoke with my TDI, and it's turned up way beyond stock. If I get some extra-crappy fuel it will smoke of full-throttle runs, but good fuel = zero smoke even with heavy mods. A properly tuned diesel running good fuel will not smoke. Period!
We won’t know until Honda is able to offer its diesel in the USA. So, let us not use assumption based arguments as something carved on stone. As far as official revelations in the US markets are concerned, we do know that Passat Diesel is rated at 27/38 mpg and the Accord Hybrid will be rated 30/38 mpg (both with manual transmission). And unlike Europe, diesel isn’t cheaper fuel here.
Going back to the C&D comparison, it involves vehicles that are currently sold in the market. It doesn’t cover possibilities that diesel technology (or hybrid technology) promise to bring. And all cars, I assume, were “new”, and based on experience, it takes a while for new engines to open up to better fuel economy (gasoline or diesel).
IMHO, the diesel held it's own quite well considering all of the above. It should. Diesel engine technology in automotive applications is considered mature, whereas hybrid application is still in its infancy.
stevedebi, That long? Doesn’t a typical American buyer keep the car for 6-7 years? In twenty years, any car, regardless of what powers it, is worth pocket change. But then, we could use the same argument for diesel as well as hybrid technology.
Dieselbreath But my turbo-diesel blows past hybrids on the interstate and I'm still getting 50 MPG. Just don’t challenge Accord Hybrid when it comes along in couple of months. Neither will get you 50 mpg in that case, but ;-)
The batteries will be illegal due to environmental issues. Then we have a whole lot of things to worry about, besides cars. Don’t cars with diesel engines have a battery of their own? That said, batteries won’t be illegal, they will simply evolve to meet the needs in the future. And then, there are storage devices like ultra-capacitors that will replace batteries in some, if not all, applications.
Honda's Ultracapacitors used in FCX has Specific Power of 1,500 W/kg vs. Prius NiMH of 1,300 W/kg. Wow! I didn’t know that. UC technology is catching up, fast!
"He didn't say anything about "new". They sold TDI's in cali until 2004."
I was looking for a Diesel Bug in 2001 and discovered that you couldn't buy Diesels here since 1992, when the CARB outlawed them below 6000 lbs gross weight.
Are you saying you bought a TDI in California last year?
quote steve-I was looking for a Diesel Bug in 2001 and discovered that you couldn't buy Diesels here since 1992, when the CARB outlawed them below 6000 lbs gross weight.-end
Simply not true Steve. 2004 is the first year that VW diesels are not being sold in CA and the other states that follow CARB standards. There are many 2003 and earlier VW diesels in CA that were sold new in CA.
"Simply not true Steve. 2004 is the first year that VW diesels are not being sold in CA and the other states that follow CARB standards. There are many 2003 and earlier VW diesels in CA that were sold new in CA."
Do you live in California? We have had several discussions on this topic, and you cannot register a new diesel vehicle in California, with a couple of notable exceptions.
Allow me to quote from the VW website:
"The TDI-PD is a diesel engine. Models equipped with this engine are not available for purchase in California, New York, Vermont, Maine and Massachussetts."
This is the same message I got several years ago when researching VW diesels.
I don't know that they outlawed the diesel in 1992, but they did tighten the emissions requirements such that it was impossible to get diesels to pass the Nox emissions test.
Believe me when I say that the Mercedes diesel was very popular, and if it were available since 1992, I would have seen them all over the road.
As so-called Tier 1 vehicles under California's complex clean-air regulations, TDI's are limited to 3,000 units of each model per model year. Similar restrictions apply in New York, part of a Northeast consortium of states that follow the California rules. VW sold its 2001 consignment of 11,000 by June; the 2002's are now arriving.
New emissions standards for 2004 put the current TDI's on the black list in CARB states.
And unlike Europe, diesel isn’t cheaper fuel here.
Well, that depends on where you chose to reside. I've enjoyed a $.15/.20 per gallon savings over 87 octane for the last several months. Typically in the states I travel it's a nickel cheaper during the warm months, and a nickel more in the cold months. Historically, acrossed the entire country diesel usually averages a couple pennys cheaper. But location is certainly something to consider. As I've said numerous times, if my only driving was in the city a hybrid would likely be on my short list.
And all cars, I assume, were “new”, and based on experience, it takes a while for new engines to open up to better fuel economy (gasoline or diesel).
I agree, but my experience also shows the diesels take substantially longer and are effected more during this break-in period. My Cummins powered Dodge says it can take up to 50k miles to fully break in if you're not pulling heavy loads often. I don't know if it's because of the very high compression or what, but I've never had a gasser continually improve performance and economy over 10k miles like my TDI did. And most others report similar.
It should. Diesel engine technology in automotive applications is considered mature, whereas hybrid application is still in its infancy.
I'm not sure you can put a product life cycle on either. They're both experiencing large changes and both are growing markets. Here in the US, prior to the TDI motors, diesels were very slow, noisy, cranky, etc. Now the TDI is old technology but there's plenty of new diesels that are bigger and better. If anything the performance will increase on they hybrids more than the efficiency. And it's quite known the TDI's are gagged of power because of our lousy diesel fuel so the performance can drastically increase there as well. Put a good diesel in that test I think folks would have a hard time giving up substantial performance gains for the mpg difference.
Hmmm. like I said, it appears they didn't outlaw it so much as restrict the emissions. I suppose that they may have allowed a few in by using emissions transfers from other VW vehicles, which had cleaner emissions. That part of the CARB regs is pretty convoluted.
However, I can tell you that I haven't seen any around, and it certainly wasn't advertised.
The way I understand it, they always sold out whatever allotment they had. No reason to advertise. There's been a lot interest on a TDI board to help import '04's with 7500 miles for people. I was going to buy a Passat TDI and put 7500 miles on it for a friend, but he found a way to get one in NV and register it there.
There are people in California whose primary business is importing TDI's. I know first hand because I just sold my 03 Jetta TDI wagon to one. They aren't hung up on only 04's, they buy any year TDI. I got top dollar for it - full consumer retail. He's going to make a profit on it after having it shipped from Florida!
good post, except the part about "heavy diesel car" ... how does a car with an engine plus a 1/2 ton of batteries weigh less than the diesel?
And if the diesel weighs more, its because its a european design versus a Japanese design, and the difference is related to structural strength. (even apples to apples ... gas Golf vs. gas Civic, the euro vehicle is hundreds of pounds heavier ... and safer)
"I was looking for a Diesel Bug in 2001 and discovered that you couldn't buy Diesels here since 1992, when the CARB outlawed them below 6000 lbs gross weight."
huh? My '98 TDI is smog legal in Calif. I believe that VW's TDIs were the only passenger cars in that class.
It is MUCH cheaper at cost (at the refinery). The fact that oil companies have decided to subsidize gas off the profits of diesel have nothing to do with the superior utilization of resources that diesel offers compared to gasoline.
... nobody mentions safety. The reason that most military vehicles are diesel is that you can transport it and transfer it in "less than ideal conditions" (read battle-field) with minimal risk. Handling gasoline is dangerous under most circumstances. Note that you cannot take a street car onto a race-track in most situations with a stock gas tank ... it needs to be replaced with a fuel cell for everyone's safety.
IF THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE WERE INVENTED IN THE PAST DECADE, VEHICLES WITH GASOLINE IN THEIR TANKS WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED WITHIN TOWN LIMITS, AND WOULD HAVE TO SKIRT CITIES FOLLOWING THE "DANGEROUS CARGO" ROUTES!
RE: "I don't know if you are aware of it or not but Diesel-electric had failed already."
I hate to tell you this, but the diesel-electrics are about to come out of development and hit the roads running.
Volvo (one of the largest makers of Class VII trucks ... a size that isn't even legal on US/CDN highways) is perfecting their new diesel-electric rigs, and the US ARMY has a hummer-replacement troop carrier also of diesel-electric design that is also more maneuverable than existing vehicles because the elimination of mechanical drive linkage increases the limits of suspension travel (and also makes 4-wheel steering a no-brainer)
Diesel electric has moved from trains to ships recently, and is now moving to large trucks. Will it make sense in a passenger vehicle? Probably not. But in a large truck, the weight impact of the power-plant is minimal compared to the GVW of a loaded tractor/trailer rig.
NOTE: City busses are another market where diesel electric is rapidly gaining in market share at the expense of older technologies.
The diesel-electric is a SERIES hybrid where the savings come from operating the engine at a constant, optimal efficiency RPM, as opposed to a PARALLEL hybrid, like the Prius, where they 2 power-plants work together, with all the losses and limitations of the traditional mechanical drive-train (sorry to inform you of that).
"Failed" is a specious claim. There isn't as much advantage to be gained from hybridizing a diesel compared to a gas motor because there is no throttle, so shrinking the engine gives less advantage, Turbocharging is essentilly free in diesel, too, and this can replace the "assist" functionality of a hybrid electric.
On the other hand, in stop and go the hybrid will have a positive effect. It depends on use. For an urban vehicle, even a small hybridization can reap rewards. I think a small (1.5L or less) turbodiesel with ultracapacitors and hub motors is what we'll converge on. For vehicles intended for urban use.
M-B does have a diesel electric hybrid coming, it's a crossover minivan with a 300hp V8 getting 30mpg.
For someone like me who drives mostly highway and off-peak, a pure diesel makes the most sense.
Holden ( GM's australian subsidiary ) is developing a hybrid based on gm's new 3.6L DOHC v8. It also supposedly has plans to base a hybrid on gm's 6.0L pushrod v8(!).
"The TDI-PD is a diesel engine. Models equipped with this engine are not available for purchase in California, New York, Vermont, Maine and Massachussetts."
That refers to 2004 models. The dealer near me in San Diego was still selling VW TDI cars in 2003. He was only sent a limited amount. He claimed they were only allowed to sell a certain percentage. Not sure if I believe that or not. They were sold as soon as they hit the ground. I had my name on the list and did not buy the one they had available. I wanted a Passat Wagon TDI. There are some dealers in LA area that have almost new 2004 models with 7501 miles available at a premium.
Precept didn't fail. What really happened was when you-know-who got in office the funding for the PNGV project was dropped. That abruptly ended all development... which was already suffering from patent-right quarrels. In other words, the technology worked and development should have continued.
It makes you wonder about the ever-changing stories GM has been telling about their upcoming hybrids. First that they weren't even worth it, that fuel-cells were just around the corner anyway. Then they suddenly embraced hybrids saying a "full" type would be available from them in 2006. Then they changed it to a "mild" in 2007. Now they are saying the "mock" type is all they plan on selling. Then when you hear about Precept already having existed as a full-functional prototype back in 2000, you wonder see they have been stepping backward. Each iteration of hybrid becomes less impressive. So my question is: Why?
quote steve-Do you live in California? We have had several discussions on this topic, and you cannot register a new diesel vehicle in California, with a couple of notable exceptions. -end
Do I live in CA? No. Does not change the fact that 2004 is the first model year that diesel passenger vehicles are not allowed to be registered in CA when new. Have to be a used vehicle with 7500 miles for a 2004 to be registered.
There are no restrictions on registration nor have there been any restrictions on 2003 diesel passenger vehicles in CA. The only problem in obtaining a diesel in 2003 and earlier has been the limited number imported to North America.
steve- Please do not create or support myths or false information.
"There are no restrictions on registration nor have there been any restrictions on 2003 diesel passenger vehicles in CA. The only problem in obtaining a diesel in 2003 and earlier has been the limited number imported to North America.
steve- Please do not create or support myths or false information."
I did not "create a myth"; I misunderstood the complex regulations, after a lot of research. Incidentally, I personally don't find such remarks very condusive to a free flow of information...
Sorry to all about my misunderstanding. I had thought that registrations were outlawed, but it appears there was a limited loophole through 2003.
The CARB regulations allowed car companies to sell a certain number of NoX emissions by an auto manufacturor. VW evidently managed to sell a certain number of diesel cars under these regulations. The sales were not unlimited, and it wasn't because VW imported only a limited number. It was because they couldn't sell any more in California. According to the articles posted in this thread, they sold out by June of each year. Do you think VW would have stopped importing and selling at 50% of the year when they were selling out a model? I have never seen any import restrictions on engines, so long as they meet federal pollution standards. Anyway, I suppose they weren't restricting registration, they were restricting sales.
The DMV regulations only apply to new cars, classified as less than 7500 miles. So people can buy cars with above this mileage, evidently at a premium. The point is that diesel is desired by many people.
However, I think your statement is incorrect. There are limitations on Diesels in California, and have been for over a decade, or other manufacturors would have been selling their diesels (especially MB, which had a very popular model). Sorry I was incorrect about the exact nature of the restrictions on passenger diesels. However, my understanding is that they have not been allowed unlimited sales, for over 10 years.
I should point out that my original information was based on an attempt to price out a VW TDI Beetle in 2001, when the website said it couldn't be sold in California. The rest of my research was this year, so I would have picked up 2004 information. Still, I'm surprised that the VW site didn't mention that I could have pre-ordered a next year model or something.
The CARB regulations are very complex, so if anyone can point to an exact explanation of these diesel rules, I would appreciate it...
More than likely, VW's site was likely wrong. I've seen several changes to the vw site this year concerning the passat tdi, several instances the information was wrong.
I know precept didn't fail--it worked, then GM abandoned it, when, as you say, an administration not very concerned with fuel economy got into office.
GM is a weird company. Sometimes they do things that make it seem as if they could put out great vehicles, then somehow it seems as if they sabotage themselves.
The whole idea of a hydrogen infrastructure seems way too impractical to me. Even if we had the power to create the hydrogen, storage and shipment of Liquid Hydrogen is not trivial. Biodiesel and Ethanol are far safer and renewable.
And if the diesel weighs more, its because its a european design versus a Japanese design, and the difference is related to structural strength.
Not necessarily. And it is based of a very bad assumption to begin with, anyway. To get back to the point, let us do apples to apples comparison of curb weight: Euro Civic 5-door HB (1.6 gasoline): 1140 kg (2508 lb) Euro Civic 5-door HB (1.7 diesel): 1311 kg (2884 lb) Euro Civic 5-door HB (2.0 gasoline): 1264 kg (2780 lb)
Diesel engines are heavier than comparable gasoline engine. Honda’s 2.2 CTD-I is said to be among the lightest diesel engines around (utilizes aluminum block) at about 375 lb (about 70-100 lb. heavier than 2.0-2.4 liter DOHC I-VTEC).
Now to address the other part
How does a car with an engine plus a 1/2 ton of batteries weigh less than the diesel?
Let us use Honda IMA system here. The DC motor is bolted onto the flywheel of the gasoline engine. The DC motor adds weight, and flywheel is supposed to have its own. So, we have a “weight redundancy” there! Honda could use lighter flywheel by utilizing the weight of the electric motor that spins with the flywheel. Effectively, they seem to negate each other!
Now, battery pack does add some weight. In Civic Hybrid, it is supposed to add 60-65 lb. And it happens to be considerably lighter than the pack used in Insight (that’s evolution!). Substantial or not may be a matter of personal opinion. But, if that were the case, adding IMA to 2.4-liter gasoline engine should result in a power train that is about as heavy as the 2.2-liter diesel engine. The diesel-electric is a SERIES hybrid where the savings come from operating the engine at a constant, optimal efficiency RPM, as opposed to a PARALLEL hybrid, like the Prius
What has a choice of SERIES versus PARALLEL hybrid got to do with choice of diesel versus gasoline motor?
"how does a car with an engine plus a 1/2 ton of batteries weigh less than the diesel?"
Prius' battery pack weights only 99lbs. Prius weights less than Jetta TDI. Prius' weight is also between Corolla and Camry, inline with those gas only cars.
I believe that if a hybrid car is designed from ground up, taking advantages of every single opportunity to save weight which only hybrid design can provide(AKA hybrid optimization), hybrid can be lighter than traditional comparable ICE only cars.
"I hate to tell you this, but the diesel-electrics are about to come out of development and hit the roads running"
I know. Timing is very important. Is it the right time now? Even now, gas-electric from Toyota who does everything in house is only turning up marginal profit. I hate to see some hybrids fail due to bad timing.
"The diesel-electric is a SERIES hybrid where the savings come from operating the engine at a constant, optimal efficiency RPM, as opposed to a PARALLEL hybrid, like the Prius, where they 2 power-plants work together, with all the losses and limitations of the traditional mechanical drive-train (sorry to inform you of that)."
You are right about advantages of Series hybrid but haven't realize that HSD Prius is Series-Parallel hybrid design. HSD can take advantages of both Series and Parallel designs.
The disadvantage of Series hybrid design is that it needs to convert all the ICE power into electricity with conversion loss. There is even more loss to store and retrieve power from the battery pack. Electric motors loose power at high speed as well.
HSD can overcome this Series hybrid problem by splitting more mechanical power from ICE directly to the wheel. In a sense, behaving more like a parallel design. The amazing thing about HSD is that, it can switch this domination back and forth between series and parallel.
Since HSD does not have a traditional transmission, it does not have losses and limitations of the traditional mechanical drive-train. HSD Dual drivetrain working in Synergy can co-operate to provide a full range of speed from 0-100mph without ever shifting a gear.
quote- But I doubt anybody claimed here that Hybrid didn't add weight or was lighter than gasoline counterparts. -end
No, the claim (many times) has been that diesel has disadvantage due to weight compared to gasoline counterparts. It was pertinent to the topic to point out the omission that hybrids also share this characteristic. I'm happy that you made my point for me.
The amount of increased weight is significant or insignificant dependent on your viewpoint.
I don't think we need to establish addition of electric motor/battery (or ultra capacitor) pack adds weight or not. It is a frequently used argument against hybrid technology (for example: see the post I responded to). OTOH, we simply don't do the same for diesels.
quote-I don't think we need to establish addition of electric motor/battery (or ultra capacitor) pack adds weight or not. It is a frequently used argument against hybrid technology (for example: see the post I responded to). OTOH, we simply don't do the same for diesels.-end
Can you be clearer please? Earlier posts state hybrids are heavier and diesels are heavier. In the example you referred to the statement is that "hybrids are heavier". There is no anti-hybrid argument in the post you responded too. There is no anti-hybrid argument in my apples to apples post. How do you come to conclusion that "OTOH, we simply don't do the same for diesels" and how is the fact that diesels or hybrids are slightly heavier than their traditional gas counterparts be considered anti-hybrid or anti-diesel?
Yes, spell it out. Post #1834 states "hybrids are heavier" and they are. So are diesels. In post #1848 you show data that diesel model is heavier than similar gas model (which was already established in previous discussions) and no weights for a hybrid. What is your point? And you do not address the Euro vs. Japanese point in #1834 by quoting weights of a Japanese design Civic sold in Europe. Are the PT Cruisers and Jeep Liberty sold in Europe Euro designs? No. A BMW, Mercedes, VW, Volvo designed in Europe are Euro designs.
So again, if diesel weighs more than gas, and hybrid weighs more than gas, how is this an important point of debate?
Please note that these are discussions rather than out-and-out debates. It's OK to exchange information that may educate others, and to question said information. But, the hostile tones need to be discarded as they create an unwelcoming atmosphere for new participants.
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"So again, if diesel weighs more than gas, and hybrid weighs more than gas, how is this an important point of debate? "
It started when a Pro-diesel attacked hybrids by saying that hybrids on highway with electric motor and battery are like dead weights. He ended up shooting on diesel foot when I pointed that diesel(or any traditional ICE only) car also carry over-sized engine on highway since maintain high speed requires only about 15-20hp.
Little did he know that HSD full hybrid use the electric motor and the generator even on the highway. The battery pack is also used when passing or cruising on the highway.
A full hybrid eliminates the need for traditional parts that are required for ICE only cars such as transmission, alternator, starter, etc.. Therefore, Prius weight about the same as gas only car. BTW, the battery pack is only 99lbs. There is still much potential to reduce weight for a full hybrid with ground up designed Atkinson cycle ICE and lighter battery pack(Li-ion or Li-Po). Not to mention a small extra weight to make a full hybrid drive on 4 wheels(4WD-i).
If only 20 HP is needed to keep a vehicle rolling at 60 mph, getting part of all of it from electric motor could save some gas. Shutting down three of six cylinder in 2005 Odyssey supposedly helps in fuel economy by 12%, how much could shutting down all six would?
I suspect, in the near future, hybrids will switch between electric and gasoline/diesel power during cruising as well, and the source of electric power could be more than the gasoline engine itself (like Honda demonstrated with its Dual note, using ATTS to trap some energy from inside wheel during cornering to recharge the ultra capacitor pack).
Comments
I followed a bright yellow Bug TDI the other day through town. I did not see any exhaust when she pulled away from the lights. Nor did I see any tell tale black soot on the rear bumper. I have no idea what diesel she was burning as all types are still available in CA.
I believe that in the long-term, city vehicles will be a mix of pure electric/fuel-cell and also hybrids powered by turbo-diesel engines or possibly hydrogen. But they will have capacitors for energy storage, (or, in the case of hydrogen-powered cars, they may generate hydrogen from the regenerative energy).
The batteries will be illegal due to environmental issues.
But for people who travel long distances, the turbo-diesel will be unbeatable. As MoparBud mentioned, the hybrid eqiupment is just dead weight that reduces mileage once the battery is depleted for long distances.
Currently, the "hybrid vs. diesel" argument depends on where you drive. Hybrids are ideal for stop-and-go. But my turbo-diesel blows past hybrids on the interstate and I'm still getting 50 MPG.
In the argument of "gasoline vs. diesel" diesel won that one a decade ago, and its just taking a while for the market to catch up to the technology (how long after the DVD appeared did the last VHS machine sell? They are still selling)
But gasoline will likely be made illegal in the future. It is terribly inefficient use of crude oil. One comparison (I can't remember where) says it takes 6x as much crude to make a gallon of gas than a gallon of diesel. This planet cannot afford to waste resources with gas.
NOTE that the high-octane gas used for airplanes is being phased out and new engine designs are diesel -- YES, DIESEL ENGINES FOR AIRPLANES!
Please tell me how many gas/hybrid airplanes designs there are.
FUTURE: Diesel/hybrid for city; pure diesel for highway. That's my engineering take on it. I suspect many will not agree, and markets also change based on mis-information (like "a diesel Passat costs $10k more" when in reality it is $300?) It will be interesting to see what happens. I'm suggesting a logical outcome based on scientific/engineering principles, but most of us still use MS Windows even though its a piece of
Well, actually, the diesel engines will have even more years under their belts than hybrids. The clean diesels are running in Europe right now.
I hope they eliminate lead acid battery from all the cars since they are toxic. NiMH batteries are much more environment ally friendly since Nickel isn't a heavy metal nor toxic. Li-ion and Li-Po battery technologies are even more environmentally friendly. So, I don't see batteries being illegal in the future.
I agree with you on Ultracapacitors and think they are the future for ICE-electric hybrids. One thing they need to overcome is the cost. Ultracapacitors that was used in Honda FCX is a bit more technologically advanced than Prius NiMH battery, in terms of Specific Power(W/kg) and internal resistence.
According to Sept issue of Automotive Engineering magazine from SAE, Honda's Ultracapacitors used in FCX has Specific Power of 1,500 W/kg vs. Prius NiMH of 1,300 W/kg. NiMH is not much behind Ultracapacitors and I am sure costs much much less.
"As MoparBud mentioned, the hybrid eqiupment is just dead weight that reduces mileage once the battery is depleted for long distances."
You can say the same thing to turbo-diesel cars on highway. Diesel car is carrying an oversized diesel engine with extra dead weight on highway since it only take about 15-20hp to maintain 60mph.
The fact that HSD enable Prius to downsize it's engine was completely ignored. The benefit of having electric motors allowed Prius to have ICE that output max of only 76hp!
HSD also completely eliminated the need for traditional transmission(manual or automatic). Hybrid drivetrain directly powers the wheels, bypassing energy loss in the traditional transmissions.
"Hybrids are ideal for stop-and-go."
Ever thought of the other way around? Stop-n-go is very wasteful for heavy diesel car. HSD can't improve much on the already pretty efficient highway driving. There is no way around the drag from the air that we breath.
"One comparison (I can't remember where) says it takes 6x as much crude to make a gallon of gas than a gallon of diesel."
Note, crude oil contains both diesel and gasoline among others. Depending on how much you refine it, you get less pure fuel(gasoline) than dirty fuel(diesel).
To me, this Diesel vs. Hybird is clearly "One powertrain vs. Duel powertrain". It is not gas vs. diesel or electric vs. diesel. Two heads are better than one; can't argue much against it. Since HSD is an extremely flexible design, diesel-electric HSD can be a quickly implemented(mostly software).
A hybrid that would give the most MPG would be diesel-electric with Ultracapacitors. The cost of such a hybrid would be very high, therefore, we will not see it for probably 5-10 years. Gas-electric HSD is the best solution available for now. I don't know if you are aware of it or not but Diesel-electric had failed already. 80mpg concept Supercars from the big three used diesel-electric design which used exotic materials(metal to save weight) never came out because of THE PRICE.
Dennis
Ah, but as we already discussed, the ultracapacitors can be deep-cycled.
As for the rest of it--it's not helpful to baldly state the points that have been contested for the past 1800 posts.
And diesel's not a "dirty fuel."
The study compared the energy use of a standardized car (91 taurus) vs its toxic emissions.
Most of the energy consumption of the car was during the operation of the car (driving) during the 120,000 mile expected lifespan. I'm not clear if this covers all the secondary and tertiary manufacturing processes.
However, most of the toxic emisisons were created during the manufacure and disposal of a vehicle. Since emissions criteria have progressed significantly since '91, i expect that this aspect is even more biased towards manufacture.
I think the points out the fact that, if your car is tight and efficient, the best thing you can do for the environment is probably keep it in good running order as long as you can.
Volvo, i know, considers manufacturing emissions a great deal and ships cars with environmental impact statements. I see that the total of co2 emitted during the manufacture process dropped from 750 tonnes in 96 to 250 in '99. That can cover a lot of driving.
Toyota is pursuing bioplastics, which (may) have more of an environmental impact than hybridization.
He didn't say anything about "new". They sold TDI's in cali until 2004. I get very little smoke with my TDI, and it's turned up way beyond stock. If I get some extra-crappy fuel it will smoke of full-throttle runs, but good fuel = zero smoke even with heavy mods. A properly tuned diesel running good fuel will not smoke. Period!
Going back to the C&D comparison, it involves vehicles that are currently sold in the market. It doesn’t cover possibilities that diesel technology (or hybrid technology) promise to bring. And all cars, I assume, were “new”, and based on experience, it takes a while for new engines to open up to better fuel economy (gasoline or diesel).
IMHO, the diesel held it's own quite well considering all of the above.
It should. Diesel engine technology in automotive applications is considered mature, whereas hybrid application is still in its infancy.
That long? Doesn’t a typical American buyer keep the car for 6-7 years? In twenty years, any car, regardless of what powers it, is worth pocket change. But then, we could use the same argument for diesel as well as hybrid technology.
Dieselbreath
But my turbo-diesel blows past hybrids on the interstate and I'm still getting 50 MPG.
Just don’t challenge Accord Hybrid when it comes along in couple of months. Neither will get you 50 mpg in that case, but ;-)
The batteries will be illegal due to environmental issues.
Then we have a whole lot of things to worry about, besides cars. Don’t cars with diesel engines have a battery of their own? That said, batteries won’t be illegal, they will simply evolve to meet the needs in the future. And then, there are storage devices like ultra-capacitors that will replace batteries in some, if not all, applications.
Wow! I didn’t know that. UC technology is catching up, fast!
I was looking for a Diesel Bug in 2001 and discovered that you couldn't buy Diesels here since 1992, when the CARB outlawed them below 6000 lbs gross weight.
Are you saying you bought a TDI in California last year?
Simply not true Steve. 2004 is the first year that VW diesels are not being sold in CA and the other states that follow CARB standards. There are many 2003 and earlier VW diesels in CA that were sold new in CA.
Do you live in California? We have had several discussions on this topic, and you cannot register a new diesel vehicle in California, with a couple of notable exceptions.
Allow me to quote from the VW website:
"The TDI-PD is a diesel engine. Models equipped with this engine are not available for purchase in California, New York, Vermont, Maine and Massachussetts."
This is the same message I got several years ago when researching VW diesels.
I don't know that they outlawed the diesel in 1992, but they did tighten the emissions requirements such that it was impossible to get diesels to pass the Nox emissions test.
Believe me when I say that the Mercedes diesel was very popular, and if it were available since 1992, I would have seen them all over the road.
As so-called Tier 1 vehicles under California's complex clean-air regulations, TDI's are limited to 3,000 units of each model per model year. Similar restrictions apply in New York, part of a Northeast consortium of states that follow the California rules. VW sold its 2001 consignment of 11,000 by June; the 2002's are now arriving.
New emissions standards for 2004 put the current TDI's on the black list in CARB states.
Well, that depends on where you chose to reside. I've enjoyed a $.15/.20 per gallon savings over 87 octane for the last several months. Typically in the states I travel it's a nickel cheaper during the warm months, and a nickel more in the cold months. Historically, acrossed the entire country diesel usually averages a couple pennys cheaper. But location is certainly something to consider. As I've said numerous times, if my only driving was in the city a hybrid would likely be on my short list.
And all cars, I assume, were “new”, and based on experience, it takes a while for new engines to open up to better fuel economy (gasoline or diesel).
I agree, but my experience also shows the diesels take substantially longer and are effected more during this break-in period. My Cummins powered Dodge says it can take up to 50k miles to fully break in if you're not pulling heavy loads often. I don't know if it's because of the very high compression or what, but I've never had a gasser continually improve performance and economy over 10k miles like my TDI did. And most others report similar.
It should. Diesel engine technology in automotive applications is considered mature, whereas hybrid application is still in its infancy.
I'm not sure you can put a product life cycle on either. They're both experiencing large changes and both are growing markets. Here in the US, prior to the TDI motors, diesels were very slow, noisy, cranky, etc. Now the TDI is old technology but there's plenty of new diesels that are bigger and better. If anything the performance will increase on they hybrids more than the efficiency. And it's quite known the TDI's are gagged of power because of our lousy diesel fuel so the performance can drastically increase there as well. Put a good diesel in that test I think folks would have a hard time giving up substantial performance gains for the mpg difference.
However, I can tell you that I haven't seen any around, and it certainly wasn't advertised.
And if the diesel weighs more, its because its a european design versus a Japanese design, and the difference is related to structural strength.
(even apples to apples ... gas Golf vs. gas Civic, the euro vehicle is hundreds of pounds heavier ... and safer)
Hybrids are heavier. Its part of the design.
huh? My '98 TDI is smog legal in Calif. I believe that VW's TDIs were the only passenger cars in that class.
It is MUCH cheaper at cost (at the refinery).
The fact that oil companies have decided to subsidize gas off the profits of diesel have nothing to do with the superior utilization of resources that diesel offers compared to gasoline.
Handling gasoline is dangerous under most circumstances. Note that you cannot take a street car onto a race-track in most situations with a stock gas tank ... it needs to be replaced with a fuel cell for everyone's safety.
IF THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE WERE INVENTED IN THE PAST DECADE, VEHICLES WITH GASOLINE IN THEIR TANKS WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED WITHIN TOWN LIMITS, AND WOULD HAVE TO SKIRT CITIES FOLLOWING THE "DANGEROUS CARGO" ROUTES!
I hate to tell you this, but the diesel-electrics are about to come out of development and hit the roads running.
Volvo (one of the largest makers of Class VII trucks ... a size that isn't even legal on US/CDN highways) is perfecting their new diesel-electric rigs, and the US ARMY has a hummer-replacement troop carrier also of diesel-electric design that is also more maneuverable than existing vehicles because the elimination of mechanical drive linkage increases the limits of suspension travel (and also makes 4-wheel steering a no-brainer)
Diesel electric has moved from trains to ships recently, and is now moving to large trucks.
Will it make sense in a passenger vehicle?
Probably not. But in a large truck, the weight impact of the power-plant is minimal compared to the GVW of a loaded tractor/trailer rig.
NOTE: City busses are another market where diesel electric is rapidly gaining in market share at the expense of older technologies.
The diesel-electric is a SERIES hybrid where the savings come from operating the engine at a constant, optimal efficiency RPM, as opposed to a PARALLEL hybrid, like the Prius, where they 2 power-plants work together, with all the losses and limitations of the traditional mechanical drive-train (sorry to inform you of that).
Here's one of the "failed" diesel hybrids
http://popularmechanics.com/automotive/auto_technology/2001/1/GM_- precept_hybrid/print.phtml
On the other hand, in stop and go the hybrid will have a positive effect. It depends on use. For an urban vehicle, even a small hybridization can reap rewards. I think a small (1.5L or less) turbodiesel with ultracapacitors and hub motors is what we'll converge on. For vehicles intended for urban use.
M-B does have a diesel electric hybrid coming, it's a crossover minivan with a 300hp V8 getting 30mpg.
For someone like me who drives mostly highway and off-peak, a pure diesel makes the most sense.
dave
That could lead to a pretty interesting GTO!
That refers to 2004 models. The dealer near me in San Diego was still selling VW TDI cars in 2003. He was only sent a limited amount. He claimed they were only allowed to sell a certain percentage. Not sure if I believe that or not. They were sold as soon as they hit the ground. I had my name on the list and did not buy the one they had available. I wanted a Passat Wagon TDI. There are some dealers in LA area that have almost new 2004 models with 7501 miles available at a premium.
Precept didn't fail. What really happened was when you-know-who got in office the funding for the PNGV project was dropped. That abruptly ended all development... which was already suffering from patent-right quarrels. In other words, the technology worked and development should have continued.
It makes you wonder about the ever-changing stories GM has been telling about their upcoming hybrids. First that they weren't even worth it, that fuel-cells were just around the corner anyway. Then they suddenly embraced hybrids saying a "full" type would be available from them in 2006. Then they changed it to a "mild" in 2007. Now they are saying the "mock" type is all they plan on selling. Then when you hear about Precept already having existed as a full-functional prototype back in 2000, you wonder see they have been stepping backward. Each iteration of hybrid becomes less impressive. So my question is: Why?
JOHN
-end
Do I live in CA? No. Does not change the fact that 2004 is the first model year that diesel passenger vehicles are not allowed to be registered in CA when new. Have to be a used vehicle with 7500 miles for a 2004 to be registered.
There are no restrictions on registration nor have there been any restrictions on 2003 diesel passenger vehicles in CA. The only problem in obtaining a diesel in 2003 and earlier has been the limited number imported to North America.
steve- Please do not create or support myths or false information.
steve- Please do not create or support myths or false information."
I did not "create a myth"; I misunderstood the complex regulations, after a lot of research. Incidentally, I personally don't find such remarks very condusive to a free flow of information...
Sorry to all about my misunderstanding. I had thought that registrations were outlawed, but it appears there was a limited loophole through 2003.
The CARB regulations allowed car companies to sell a certain number of NoX emissions by an auto manufacturor. VW evidently managed to sell a certain number of diesel cars under these regulations. The sales were not unlimited, and it wasn't because VW imported only a limited number. It was because they couldn't sell any more in California. According to the articles posted in this thread, they sold out by June of each year. Do you think VW would have stopped importing and selling at 50% of the year when they were selling out a model? I have never seen any import restrictions on engines, so long as they meet federal pollution standards. Anyway, I suppose they weren't restricting registration, they were restricting sales.
The DMV regulations only apply to new cars, classified as less than 7500 miles. So people can buy cars with above this mileage, evidently at a premium. The point is that diesel is desired by many people.
However, I think your statement is incorrect. There are limitations on Diesels in California, and have been for over a decade, or other manufacturors would have been selling their diesels (especially MB, which had a very popular model). Sorry I was incorrect about the exact nature of the restrictions on passenger diesels. However, my understanding is that they have not been allowed unlimited sales, for over 10 years.
I should point out that my original information was based on an attempt to price out a VW TDI Beetle in 2001, when the website said it couldn't be sold in California. The rest of my research was this year, so I would have picked up 2004 information. Still, I'm surprised that the VW site didn't mention that I could have pre-ordered a next year model or something.
The CARB regulations are very complex, so if anyone can point to an exact explanation of these diesel rules, I would appreciate it...
I'm only repeating what the web site told me when I attempted to price out a Beetle Diesel that year.
See the discussions above; perhaps I was attempting to buy after June of that year...
GM is a weird company. Sometimes they do things that make it seem as if they could put out great vehicles, then somehow it seems as if they sabotage themselves.
The whole idea of a hydrogen infrastructure seems way too impractical to me. Even if we had the power to create the hydrogen, storage and shipment of Liquid Hydrogen is not trivial. Biodiesel and Ethanol are far safer and renewable.
Not necessarily. And it is based of a very bad assumption to begin with, anyway. To get back to the point, let us do apples to apples comparison of curb weight:
Euro Civic 5-door HB (1.6 gasoline): 1140 kg (2508 lb)
Euro Civic 5-door HB (1.7 diesel): 1311 kg (2884 lb)
Euro Civic 5-door HB (2.0 gasoline): 1264 kg (2780 lb)
Diesel engines are heavier than comparable gasoline engine. Honda’s 2.2 CTD-I is said to be among the lightest diesel engines around (utilizes aluminum block) at about 375 lb (about 70-100 lb. heavier than 2.0-2.4 liter DOHC I-VTEC).
Now to address the other part
How does a car with an engine plus a 1/2 ton of batteries weigh less than the diesel?
Let us use Honda IMA system here. The DC motor is bolted onto the flywheel of the gasoline engine. The DC motor adds weight, and flywheel is supposed to have its own. So, we have a “weight redundancy” there! Honda could use lighter flywheel by utilizing the weight of the electric motor that spins with the flywheel. Effectively, they seem to negate each other!
Now, battery pack does add some weight. In Civic Hybrid, it is supposed to add 60-65 lb. And it happens to be considerably lighter than the pack used in Insight (that’s evolution!). Substantial or not may be a matter of personal opinion. But, if that were the case, adding IMA to 2.4-liter gasoline engine should result in a power train that is about as heavy as the 2.2-liter diesel engine.
The diesel-electric is a SERIES hybrid where the savings come from operating the engine at a constant, optimal efficiency RPM, as opposed to a PARALLEL hybrid, like the Prius
What has a choice of SERIES versus PARALLEL hybrid got to do with choice of diesel versus gasoline motor?
Light reading on fuel efficient vehicles.
Passat GLS TDI 3519 lbs
Civic Hybrid 2749 lbs
Civic EX 2668 lbs
Hybrid weighs more than non-hybrid and diesel weighs more than gas.
Civic EX: 2612 lb
Civic Hybrid: 2675 lb (+63 lb.)
But I doubt anybody claimed here that Hybrid didn't add weight or was lighter than gasoline counterparts.
Prius' battery pack weights only 99lbs. Prius weights less than Jetta TDI. Prius' weight is also between Corolla and Camry, inline with those gas only cars.
I believe that if a hybrid car is designed from ground up, taking advantages of every single opportunity to save weight which only hybrid design can provide(AKA hybrid optimization), hybrid can be lighter than traditional comparable ICE only cars.
Current hybrids that are available on the market are hybrid version of traditional cars. Even 04 Prius is based on Toyota Allion. See there for more info: usbseawolf2000 "Toyota Allion Vs. Prius" Jun 18, 2004 10:01pm
Dennis
I know. Timing is very important. Is it the right time now? Even now, gas-electric from Toyota who does everything in house is only turning up marginal profit. I hate to see some hybrids fail due to bad timing.
"The diesel-electric is a SERIES hybrid where the savings come from operating the engine at a constant, optimal efficiency RPM, as opposed to a PARALLEL hybrid, like the Prius, where they 2 power-plants work together, with all the losses and limitations of the traditional mechanical drive-train (sorry to inform you of that)."
You are right about advantages of Series hybrid but haven't realize that HSD Prius is Series-Parallel hybrid design. HSD can take advantages of both Series and Parallel designs.
The disadvantage of Series hybrid design is that it needs to convert all the ICE power into electricity with conversion loss. There is even more loss to store and retrieve power from the battery pack. Electric motors loose power at high speed as well.
HSD can overcome this Series hybrid problem by splitting more mechanical power from ICE directly to the wheel. In a sense, behaving more like a parallel design. The amazing thing about HSD is that, it can switch this domination back and forth between series and parallel.
Since HSD does not have a traditional transmission, it does not have losses and limitations of the traditional mechanical drive-train. HSD Dual drivetrain working in Synergy can co-operate to provide a full range of speed from 0-100mph without ever shifting a gear.
Dennis
No, the claim (many times) has been that diesel has disadvantage due to weight compared to gasoline counterparts. It was pertinent to the topic to point out the omission that hybrids also share this characteristic. I'm happy that you made my point for me.
The amount of increased weight is significant or insignificant dependent on your viewpoint.
Can you be clearer please? Earlier posts state hybrids are heavier and diesels are heavier. In the example you referred to the statement is that "hybrids are heavier". There is no anti-hybrid argument in the post you responded too. There is no anti-hybrid argument in my apples to apples post. How do you come to conclusion that "OTOH, we simply don't do the same for diesels" and how is the fact that diesels or hybrids are slightly heavier than their traditional gas counterparts be considered anti-hybrid or anti-diesel?
In post #1848 you show data that diesel model is heavier than similar gas model (which was already established in previous discussions) and no weights for a hybrid. What is your point?
And you do not address the Euro vs. Japanese point in #1834 by quoting weights of a Japanese design Civic sold in Europe. Are the PT Cruisers and Jeep Liberty sold in Europe Euro designs? No. A BMW, Mercedes, VW, Volvo designed in Europe are Euro designs.
So again, if diesel weighs more than gas, and hybrid weighs more than gas, how is this an important point of debate?
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It started when a Pro-diesel attacked hybrids by saying that hybrids on highway with electric motor and battery are like dead weights. He ended up shooting on diesel foot when I pointed that diesel(or any traditional ICE only) car also carry over-sized engine on highway since maintain high speed requires only about 15-20hp.
Little did he know that HSD full hybrid use the electric motor and the generator even on the highway. The battery pack is also used when passing or cruising on the highway.
A full hybrid eliminates the need for traditional parts that are required for ICE only cars such as transmission, alternator, starter, etc.. Therefore, Prius weight about the same as gas only car. BTW, the battery pack is only 99lbs. There is still much potential to reduce weight for a full hybrid with ground up designed Atkinson cycle ICE and lighter battery pack(Li-ion or Li-Po). Not to mention a small extra weight to make a full hybrid drive on 4 wheels(4WD-i).
Diesel hybrid would be the heaviest then.
Dennis
I suspect, in the near future, hybrids will switch between electric and gasoline/diesel power during cruising as well, and the source of electric power could be more than the gasoline engine itself (like Honda demonstrated with its Dual note, using ATTS to trap some energy from inside wheel during cornering to recharge the ultra capacitor pack).