"That's why i think it's important to examine total lifecycle emissions, environmental impact, resource use, and energy consumption. That's where i still think diesel has the advantage. Longevity, lower manufacturing impact ( simpler, no special battery pack ) and a fuel with a lower environmental impact."
... yeah! What HE said!!!
Does anyone have any solid info on how much gas vs. diesel is generated from the same volume crude? That's one important factor that has been missed on the supply-side of the fossil-fuel argument. And BIO-fuel is an obvious near-future solution that is compatible with existing fuel-delivery infrastructure. And then there was the gov't study showing that adding a few ounces of Canola oil per tank in fleet vehicles dropped engine wear (based on analysis of iron contect in the motor-oil when changed) by a significant amount ... >30%. An engine that wears 2/3 normal lasts 50% longer! Think of the impact of that on reduced manufacturing impact (and reduced auto sales overall! Sorry Detroit)
Wasn't there a recent major study linking increases in Asthma (plus other conditions) with lack of exposure to dirt when growing up? The summary of the study is that mothers who keep their children and their toys extra clean ("sanitized") were apparently disrupting an important (and unknown) stage in the development of our immune systems. They postulated that our defense systems needed "practice" and by not letting kids get dirty they suffered a variety of problems later in life.
And then there's the chemical's "off-gassing" from plastics. When kids are climbing on sanitized Fisher-price creations (indoors) instead of climbing trees (outside in the "fresh" air) they are inhaling a low-level cocktail of chemicals whose effects are unknown, but very worrying to scientists. Plastics in the environment are implicated in everything from breast cancer to the decrease in acquatic birds in the Great Lakes....
I agree, except for one minor point: "But an electric car only has a electric motor that can also act as a generator to stop itself."
As an electrical engineer, I vaguely remember that the braking force of an electric motor is proportional to its speed, so the slower you go the less it works. If there is no other friction (or you are on a hill) it would never stop the vehicle ... only make it very slow (so it almost appears to be stopped ... sort of like how the government operates!)
RE: "> The reality is that any new diesel car is > not going to negatively impact smog. Sorry, but even a 0.00001% percent increase is a problem."
This is silliness. You're worried about a 0.00001% percent difference while the Dodge dealership is selling Durango Hemis that get < 15 MPG, V-10 Excursions are used to return the DVD to Blockbuster, and a Hummer is considered a vehicle to aspire to?
Get the EPA to apply fuel-consumption rules to SUVs and you'll get a XX % difference in pollution levels!
Better yet: Replace every SUV with a Prius or Jetta TDI wagon and you might eliminate the need for the US to import oil. Imagine the overall impact to quality-of-life that could make to the planet!
"Better yet: Replace every SUV with a Prius or Jetta TDI wagon and you might eliminate the need for the US to import oil. Imagine the overall impact to quality-of-life that could make to the planet"
Ah yes, i think we need to keep in mind that we ought to be generally on the same "side" here. We both want fuel efficient vehicles.
Even the ULSD is sort of a dumb point to constantly rehash, it's just an issue of regulation. Petrol could have been the one with large amounts of sulphur being allowed. Remember leaded gasoline, fer crissakes?
I wonder if chrysler will start to drop mercedes diesels in cars here in the US when the ULSD comes to pass. It wouldn't surprise me.
An biodiesel has 3% less energy than regular diesel. Personally, not enough to get me to not consider a renewable, clean, carbon-neutral fuel.
There is a slight increase in nox and particulates offroad diesels without catalysts or particle traps. This is not likely the case for onroad diesels:
"UK market Civic... emissions: Hybrid : CO2 Emissions (g/km): 116 Diesel : CO2 Emissions (g/km): 134 Based on this, it appears that hybrid is not only better in emissions contributing towards smog, but also beats a comparable diesel engine in terms of green house emissions"
"In Consumer Reports’ real-world driving test, the Civic Hybrid averaged 26 mpg in the city, while the Toyota Prius averaged 35 mpg, much less than their respective EPA estimates of 47 and 60 mpg."
If we use the generous figure ( that has been posted here from several sources ) of hybrids getting 30% less than the advertised fuel economy figures, the civic hybrid will put out 150g/km. That's not only more than the civic diesel, it's the same as a bmw 320cd, a heavier and sportier car.
Yes, i know some hybrid owners are getting good fuel economy, but it it apparent that many of not most, are not.
Combine this fact with the others mentioned, ( manufacturing, fuel manufacutre/shipment, longevity, renewable fuels ) and this is why I feel that with current technology diesel is the best bet.
An biodiesel has 3% less energy than regular diesel. Personally, not enough to get me to not consider a renewable, clean, carbon-neutral fuel.
That's a fact. I can pump B100 into my TDI and basically drive on like normal, notwithstanding the possible cold-start issues which CAN be remedied.
My Tahoe is an E85 vehicle and if you read the owners manual you'll never have any desire to run Ethanol through the tank. Substantially lower power, cold-start problems, and substantially lower fuel economy are listed in the manual as "normal" when operating this wonder fuel. The computer is designed to compensate so the engine actually runs, but at a retarded state for the most part.
Very minimal decrease in power/efficiency running B100 in a diesel, and B20 is essentially unperceivable even in cold weather if you're buying reputable fuel. The pumps where I can get B20 is mixed with BP/Amoco supreme and I left some in a jar outside last winter. At -10 it was perfectly fine.
Does anyone have any solid info on how much gas vs. diesel is generated from the same volume crude? That's one important factor that has been missed on the supply-side of the fossil-fuel argument.
Please post this info if you have it. Maybe it would shut up the diesel antagonists.
Yes, i know some hybrid owners are getting good fuel economy, but it is apparent that many of not most, are not.
Dave, I think you hit on a very important aspect of this hybrid vs diesel debate. Many hybrid owners are not getting anywhere close to what they believed they were going to get. The reasons have been pointed out. Tire pressure, high speeds, fast starts etc. Normal average type people just want to get in the car and drive it. They only worry about the maintenance schedule if that. The people that are getting close to EPA on the hybrids are fanatical about saving gas. That is fine except it is not the way the average Joe uses a car.
On the other side of the coin, in a diesel such as a VW TDI you just jump in and drive like any other car and you get the great mileage advantage that diesel offers, simple.
Does anyone have any solid info on how much gas vs. diesel is generated from the same volume crude? That's one important factor that has been missed on the supply-side of the fossil-fuel argument. Please post this info if you have it. Maybe it would shut up the diesel antagonists.
This bit of information I do have. On the Arctic Oil field there are several well sites that are producing light sweet crude that can run in a diesel generator or truck right out of the well. No production cost at all. I do not know the sulfur content of that crude. I know some fields have high sulfur and have to be handled very cautiously. Gasoline production is a hazardous business as witnessed by the recent refinery fires. That is one reason for the high price of gasoline. Diesel prices on the other hand are run up by road use taxes. I believe they are kept up equal with unleaded to discourage diesel car sales.
In C&D test, Jetta TDI ended up at the tail end. If you take CR's report on one instance as something carved on the stone, why not everything else like it as well?
But back to the point we were discussing... emissions. Got data on two comparable cars (say, Civic Hybrid and Jetta TDI) to include every aspect, and support your claims?
"In C&D test, Jetta TDI ended up at the tail end. If you take CR's report on one instance as something carved on the stone, why not everything else like it as well?"
Well, for one, CR was a more rigid test with more datapoints.
Also, you're trying to worm away from facts yet again. There's many articles discussing dissapointing MPG from hybrids.
To quote you:
"The bottomline is that a large sample provides information that a single experience under certain condition cannot."
As long as we're mentioning the c&d test:
"The Prius will have been driven 165,000 miles by the time enough dollars are saved on gas to overcome that extra starting cost."
"But back to the point we were discussing... emissions. Got data on two comparable cars (say, Civic Hybrid and Jetta TDI) to include every aspect, and support your claims?"
Got data on two comparable cars (say, Civic Hybrid and Jetta TDI) to include every aspect, and support your claims?
I don't see a point of arguing emissions differences on the two. The hybrids are cleaner. The VW TDI is cleaner than anything else in the Toyota lineup. Maybe CARB should ban all the Toyota lineup except the Prius, as they have the VW TDI.
I think a bigger issue that is yet to be proven is the longevity of the hybrid vs the diesel. We have very good studies showing diesel cars lasting 300k miles and more up to a million miles. The regulation by the government needs to focus on building cars that last longer as well as being clean & fuel efficient. According to a UCS study: "The manufacturing of a new car pumps 4 tons of carbon and nearly 700 pounds of other pollutants into the atmosphere".
"As an electrical engineer, I vaguely remember that the braking force of an electric motor is proportional to its speed, so the slower you go the less it works. If there is no other friction (or you are on a hill) it would never stop the vehicle ... "
I am aware of that. Nothing is preventing the electric motor to apply negative torque(try to spin backward) for the car to come to a complete stop. It is not the best solution but a possible one, which was only necessary to make my original point. :-D
"Combine this fact with the others mentioned, ( manufacturing, fuel manufacutre/shipment, longevity, renewable fuels ) and this is why I feel that with current technology diesel is the best bet."
I can collect all the worst possible situations for diesel and add them up and come to opposite feeling.
You can not ignore the fact that hybrids are more efficient, powerful and cleaner than any single ICE powertrain vehicle.
"In C&D test, Jetta TDI ended up at the tail end."
Let me post some of the highlights.
"Mileage on the Highway
All four cars got more than 40 mpg, and the Prius hit 50. Amazingly, the One-Calorie Toyota Echo squeaked above its EPA highway number (39) to 41 mpg. The diesel, at 42 mpg, fell 2 mpg behind its EPA rating....
Mileage in Town
The Prius again scored at the top with 52 mpg. Dr. Diesel, in last place at 33, was a bit of a surprise. We expected more. Diesels are at their best, relatively speaking, under light loads; they inject very little fuel and they have no throttling losses. Again, the One-Calorie Echo did superbly at 42 mpg....
Mileage in Suburbia
This is a cycle lacking the predictable mileage killers of high speeds and frequent stops and starts (we obeyed all stop signs, of course). The two hybrids tied for top mileage at 54 mpg. Temperatures were in the 60s, and the sky was not cloudy all day. Nor was a discouraging word heard. But there was nothing artificial about conditions....
What Does It All Mean?
Some voices, even some staff engineers, want to say hybrids can't deliver on their EPA ratings; that hybrid technology games the system even though it may do so in good faith. That's the wrong take on the numbers, we think.
Instead, think of hybrids as "software" cars. They decide on their own when to start and stop the engine. The Prius can even move smartly with the fuel burner off. In fact, the Prius runs almost half of the EPA city test without the engine. That's a tremendous achievement.
But if your driving includes higher speeds and less time at stops, your mileage will come up well short of EPA city. On the other hand, if you have more low-'n'-slow, you will benefit more. Nobody, including software gurus, can predict where and how you will drive.
That said, the hybrids produced the best mileage here, and they delivered the most enjoyment per dollar."
"As an electrical engineer, I vaguely remember that the braking force of an electric motor is proportional to its speed, so the slower you go the less it works. If there is no other friction (or you are on a hill) it would never stop the vehicle ... "
I am aware of that. Nothing is preventing the electric motor to apply negative torque(try to spin backward) for the car to come to a complete stop. It is not the best solution but a possible one, which was only necessary to make my original point. :-D
We studied this in a motors course talking about induction motors. As an example, we looked at what would happen if you put a magnet beside the rotor of a brake disc (assuming an iron rotor). The iron moving through the magnetic field induces currents (eddy currents) in the rotor which simply circulate inside the rotor. In turn, they create a magnetic field which acts against the external magnet to slow the rotation (braking force)
Due to resistive losses, all the energy is converted to heat. So it is theoretically possible to replace brake pads with electro-magnets at higher speeds and then use mechanical brakes for low-speed stopping or assisting at high speeds. Imagine how much longer your brakes would last with this setup!
QUESTION: How long do the brakes last on a Hybrid? They should go a lot longer than on a normal car ... another benefit of hybrid technology!
The chart on this page has the Average U.S. Refinery Yield. Gasoline comprises just under 50% of the yield while diesel, heating oil, jet fuel and kerosene proportion is just over 30%.
The chart on this page shows the refining output from different regions of the world. Notice that a greater proportion of North American refinery output is gasoline than the other regions of the world.
The reason for the difference is supply and demand. We use a lot more gasoline in North America than in other regions of the world so naturally our refineries pump out more gasoline. The objective of a refinery is to use downstream processing (e.g. cracking heavier fractions into lighter ones or unifying lighter fractions into heavier ones) to move from the natural yield of products from simple distillation to the desired demand slate.
Of course it would take time and money to rejig our refineries to output more diesel if the car companies started selling a lot more diesel cars but the change in demand would be gradual since it probably takes about 10 to 12 years of new car sales to replace most of the cars currently on the road today.
You can not ignore the fact that hybrids are more efficient, powerful and cleaner than any single ICE powertrain vehicle.
Dennis
Whoa there. Thought you could slip in that "more powerful" bit without anyone noticing, eh? Lets briefly look at gas versus diesel power:
Although I don't care for SUVs, as a comparison, lets take a V8 Hemi Durango and go against a VW Touareg TDI. (almost state-of-the-art diesel) Both vehicles in the showrooms and streets of your city.
The VW, a luxury SUV built like a tank, weighs 1000 pounds MORE than the Dodge. The diesel is rated 313HP vs. the Hemi's ~345 HP ( I don't remember exactly) But the Diesel VW hits 60 MPH a full second FASTER than the HEMI! And it uses 1/2 the fuel in real-world driving (~26 MPG vs. ~13 MPG) Some comparisons say the heavy VW diesel SUV is faster than the BMW X5 and even the base Porsche Cayenne.
Try racing a Hemi with a Hybrid! I'll put my money on the Hemi.
Here's another comparison. My VW TDI came with Michelin tires. It would smoke the tires in 1st and 2nd with an engine rated at 90HP. To get more traction, I upgraded to Yokohama Avid V4 rubber. I still have problems launching properly without smoking in 1st, but 2nd grabs.
I love blowing hopped up Hondas and other winged imports off the lights with my little diesel. It's very cheap thrills at 53 MPG!
Well, not only am I on my 3rd set of tires, I've also had to have the bolts on the front motor-mount replaced because I broke one and the other 2 were "stretched" and near braking according to the mechanic at VW. This is the mount that takes the torque of the engine.
QUESTION: Show me a hybrid that has problems breaking the bolts on the engine mounts because of the "greater power" than a diesel!!
However, electric motors have incredible torque at low speeds (torque is inversely proportional to speed, I believe), so they should be able to jump off the line smartly.... but I'd bet a VW TDI engine would blow apart a Toyota hybrid drivetrain ... I doubt it would be able to handle the power.
That is very interesting information, but doesn't answer my question, which is how efficiently does the production of gas compare to diesel. One post stated that some crude can be run in diesel engines, meaning that a tanker of that crude translates roughly into a tanker of diesel. But a tanker of crude translates into a small fraction of a tanker of gasoline because it must be refined. Its like extracing gold from dirt. They don't just dig up pure gold in a mine. They throw away dirt (tailings) and keep <0.1% of it as gold.
Same with crude ... we throw it away to make gas, when we could be using most of it for diesel. (they don't throw it away ... its used for other things like paving roads, tar for roofs, ....)
And I think you're possibly a way off here: Of course it would take time and money to rejig our refineries to output more diesel...
I don't think it would be any work. In fact, I believe it would be a LOT LESS WORK because they have to do so much to extract the gasoline which is a relatively small portion of the crude. But to create diesel there is very little processing involved.
For example, the number that I remember was 6:1 meaning that it took 6x as much crude to make a barrel of gas compared to the crude needed to make a barrel of diesel.
Let's say that "they" claim we'll be out of fuel in 50 years if we burn gas. If the 6:1 ratio is true, the same reserves would last 300 years if we switched to diesel, leaving a lot more time to develop infrastructure for Hydrogen or whatever we migrate to.
But the question is: What is the ratio? Is it 6:1, 3:1, 10:1, ????
Its titled: "Summary of Weekly Petroleum Data for the Week Ending September 10, 2004"
It shows that gas consumption is UP, diesel is DOWN. It also breaks diesel "distillates" into 3 groups by sulphur content:
Distillate Fuel Oil (7) 128.3 15 ppm sulfur and Under 1.7 > 15 ppm to 500 ppm sulfur 73.5 > 500 ppm sulfur 53.1
(That's the US inventory at the end of the week in millions of barrels.)
Notice that there's some low-sulfur diesel (that many readers use in their vehicles), "regular" diesel, and then some "nasty diesel" that is >500 ppm of sulfur.
Know where the nasty stuff goes? According to the gov't figures, that's what you call "heating oil".
Ever wonder where smog comes from? What do the boilers under the sky-scrapers burn? You guessed it!
When will the EPA start looking at pollution from buldings instead of banning 50 MPG cars that are burning "the good stuff"!???
I said: "You can not ignore the fact that hybrids are more efficient, powerful and cleaner than any single ICE powertrain vehicle."
moparbad said: "That is your OPINION, it is not FACT. It is easy to prove false."
How are you going to prove that one head are better than two? Given either gas or diesel ICE, if add an hybrid option, you can gain efficiency, power, and lower emission all at the same time! You can just argue how a hybrid design distribute those gains.
"QUESTION: How long do the brakes last on a Hybrid? They should go a lot longer than on a normal car ... another benefit of hybrid technology!"
Prius comes with relatively small brakes. The classic Prius came out 7 years ago and I haven't hear anyone needing to replace the brake pads. Even those drove over 200,000 miles. The battery still works as well.
BTW, all I was saying about eBrakes was that the electric motor can apply electricity to stop the car instead of creating resistance by acting as a generator during slow speed.
"QUESTION: Show me a hybrid that has problems breaking the bolts on the engine mounts because of the "greater power" than a diesel!!
However, electric motors have incredible torque at low speeds (torque is inversely proportional to speed, I believe), so they should be able to jump off the line smartly.... but I'd bet a VW TDI engine would blow apart a Toyota hybrid drivetrain ... I doubt it would be able to handle the power."
You were misguided by moparbad's comment. I wasn't comparing gas-electric hybrid to diesel. Please read my statement more carefully. Regarding your TDI, I haven't hear any hybrid breaking bolts since they are highly reliable. ;-D
50kW electric motor in the Prius can produce 295 lbs-ft of torque! Prius beats Jetta TDI in 0-60mph acceleration. If you are not aware of improvements made in 04 Prius, take a look at here. http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/ths2/index.html
Lexus is coming out with RX400H with 120kW electric motor in the front and 50kW in the back. Imagine how much torque they can produce?
Yes they do and tests I saw had the braking distance 20 feet further than the Jetta TDI 70-0 mph. Why do they put rear disks on the European Prius and not the USA version. Could it be that the Europeans are used to better handling and braking?
Good article, excerpts from "Hybrid Electric Vehicles on the Way"
By 2015, the penetration rate is expected to be around 8 to 10 per cent, with the majority of hybrid applications being constituted by mild systems. As yet, Honda Motor Corporation is the only vehicle manufacturer to have commercialised mild hybrids in Europe and - supported by the launch of its Civic Hybrid in Spring 2003 - is poised to lead the European mild HEV market until around 2005. However, Frost and Sullivan cautions that uptake of full hybrids will be sluggish throughout the decade. Julia Reuter, Research Analyst at Frost and Sullivan, notes: "We are confident that European vehicle manufacturers will follow the mild HEV route. While R and D outlay in the full hybrid powertrain sector is substantial, the European Market is more focused on CO2 rather than NOX emission reduction. This makes full hybridisation a less prominent issue than in other markets, such as Japan and North America."
Sorry, didn't you know that deisal causes cancer, lung disease, asthma, warts, pink eye, and impotence? That in Europe, that epicenter of deisal usage, billions die every year from diesal fumes?
Oh wait, none of that is true. Yet we still don't have those cool European deisals, despite the performance and better fuel economy. Huh. Wonder why that is?
Actually when I drove the Prius it felt like it had very good brakes. I looked at a few mag tests and saw that the Prius' stopping distances were BETTER than some Acuras!! How well does that behemoth Suburban stop?
"How well does that behemoth Suburban stop?" OH, real good! I hope, I use the brakes minimally. I went to ceramic pads also, which seem better than the OEM junk you get. When I talked to my brake man he was not thrilled with Honda brakes as a whole which might explain the Acura brakes. I think the German cars do not skimp on brakes like many others.
Honda does usually have some long braking distances. Something over 200' last Accord C&D tested. Maybe they just take awhile to "brake in", I dunno. My TDI stops quite fast, and I've used to drive race cars so I'm a pretty good judge!
I think I saw something in Motor Trend and the braking distance for the TDI and Prius was quite admirable. Honda/Acura for some reason do not match their abilities. C & D magazine is the worst of the rags. No reason they had to rip the diesel to shreds on that comparo.
C&D reviews are the only ones I really care for. But that aside, on the brake issue, choice of diesel or hybrid wasn't the point, the results were. In order (worst to best) of stopping distance (70 mph to 0 mph)...
225 ft: Toyota Echo 192 ft: Toyota Prius 182 ft: Honda Civic Hybrid/ VW Jetta TDI (Tie)
There is a bit of confusion there. That figure from Toyota is actually refinery to tank efficiency and is related to handling energy losses. The largest is fuel consumed by the delivery trucks.
In simplest terms, their 88% figure means that it takes 12 gallons of fuel to deliver 100 gallons.
It is not related to what percentage of crude becomes gasoline.
On that CRUDE-TO-GAS conversion, it is higher in USA than any other company. There is a lot of expense (and energy) spent converting perfectly good (diesel) fuel into gasoline in "downstream processing" to meet the gasoline needs in the US.
This is what makes gas cost so much. Diesel doesn't have those extra expenses. So diesel purchasers are SUBSIDIZING GASOLINE by paying the same price for a product that costs about 1/2 as much to produce.
In fact, I believe that the oil companies are intentionally putting crazy prices on diesel to discourage the adoption of a technology that will reduce both demand and profits for the oil companies if it were sold at fair prices and the market responded by replacing gas cars with diesel equivalents.
The hybrids are also a threat to their profits with their reduced consumption.
"That figure from Toyota is actually refinery to tank efficiency and is related to handling energy losses."
You missed the fine print on the link I provided. Well To Tank and Tank To Wheel are commonly used terms.
Well-to-tank: Efficiency with which the fuel is obtained, processed, stored and transported to the vehicle's tank.
You want to know the difference of Gasoline and Diesel in the "obtained"(refined?) and "processed"(unleaded?) stage right? Why not compare the whole Well-to-tank? The way that Diesel is stored and transported might be different from gasoline with associate cost and efficiencies.
You can refine heating oil to diesel then diesel to gasoline but not the other way around because gasoline is more pure.
"The current, unregulated sulfur level of approximately 3,000 ppm will drop to a 500 ppm limit in June 2007."
This is a reality check for those that live anywhere near a railroad track. According to my crude calculations the average railroad engine produces 12,000 times more PM, NOx, and CO2 as a modern VW TDI car that is running 15 PPM ULSD. This ULSD is available in many civilized communities of the USA. Put in simple language you can have 12,000 VW TDI cars on the road before it equals one railroad engine spewing black soot down the tracks. It will not be until 2010 before the railroads have to be in compliance with the same 15 PPM that will be required for vehicles on the road in 2006. If you are burning oil in your furnace at home it is very likely as polluting as 3000 PPM diesel allowed for non road uses. It is fair for the railroads and big contractors to dump tons of crap in the air. But some little guy wants to use less of our natural resources in a simple little diesel car and he is shot down. Or forced to buy some complex technologically advanced whiz bang machine that is only built to make the automaker look environmentally conscientious.
Are diesels the way to go to boost American fuel economy?
To tackle the question, you have to begin with Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) regulations, which are specifically targeted at the domestic auto producers of Detroit and, oddly, quite contrary to public demand. Because of CAFE the challenge for improvement in fuel economy is greatest for domestic producers.......
This is really NOT a diesel vs. hybrid type of article, however, it is relevant to the future of diesels and some may have interest in reading it.
I had thought that diesel has been traditionally cheaper than regular gas. Has that changed? I was in NJ yesterday and paid $1.76 for regular unleaded and diesel was $0.10 more. I suppose this is only in NJ. Can anyone else around the country confirm this?
At the station closest to me the unleaded is $1.999 and the #2 diesel is $2.149. CA has higher road tax on diesel to get the truckers to pay for the heavier usage.
Typically, acrossed the country and averaged acrossed the year, diesel works out to be the same price as gasoline. Certain parts of the country it's higher, certain parts lower. Usually around August, diesel starts inching higher than gas because of the heating season coming up. In most of the midwest for the past few years, diesel has almost always been $.05 cheaper in the summer and $.05 more in the winter. Generally close to the same during spring/fall. This fall it's about $.10 higher for some reason. Maybe they started producing heating oil early because of supply problems.
To get a clear picture of fuel economy, performance and emission, I'll provide what's available in Europe now. You decide.
Toyota Corolla Diesel Engine Type: 1.4 8v D-4D Gearbox: 5M/T Acceleration(0-62mph): 13.3 sec Combined L/100 km (93/116/EEC): 4.8 (49.0 mpg) Emission standard: 2004 Euro IV Fully Loaded Great Britian Price: £15,995 ($28,916)
Toyota Avensis Diesel (Scion tC is based on this platform) Engine Type: 2.0 16v D-4D Gearbox: 5 M/T Acceleration(0-62mph): 11.2 sec Combined L/100 km (93/116/EEC): 5.8 (40.6 mpg) Emission standard: 2004 Euro IV Fully Loaded Great Britian Price: £22,845 ($41,299)
My conclusion is that a full hybrid(Prius) outperform diesels in acceleration, fuel economy and low emission. The price is also fair considering the size.
Hmmm, looks like the Prius is a $7,321 premium over the Corolla. The Aventis is in another league to begin with. At $5/gallon, how you doing on fuel at 100,000 miles? Looks like the same conundrum we have here. Huge price premium, little real-world savings. Marginal performance gap. Prius is a bit bigger, what about 11"? Again, it comes down to resale value which is completely unknown. I doubt the europeans are goo-goo over the Prius either unless they're trying to make a statement.
What's the hybrid Toyota SUV's going to run? Any pricing yet?
You mean to say that Hondas and toyotas don't regularly do more than 200k miles? Could it be that the high mileage Honda/Toyota owbers decided to keep driving the cars, instead of selling them, since they are running well?
I would say many of the newer Hondas & Toyotas are reliable and have gone 200k plus with minimal trouble. The debate was about hybrids and their longevity compared to diesels. There are some here that insist that you should dump your car when it reaches the end of the warranty. In the case of a hybrid I agree. When a few brave souls drive their hybrids for 10 years and or 200k-300k miles plus we will know if they are indeed capable of decent longevity. Obviously I bought into the Japanese myth of reliability way too early, 1964 Toyota Land cruiser. I know first hand the feeling of being left stranded by the road with a broken down NEW vehicle. It was 30 years before I bought another Toyota and that was a PU that was also very high maintenance. We've got a 1990 Mazda 626 that is running good with little other than routine maintenance. Some are better than others.
"Hmmm, looks like the Prius is a $7,321 premium over the Corolla. The Aventis is in another league to begin with."
Prius is closer in size to Avensis, not Corolla. In performance and fuel economy, Prius is in another league. Diesels are only offered in Manual transmission. Automatic would make them even lower performance.
Comments
... yeah! What HE said!!!
Does anyone have any solid info on how much gas vs. diesel is generated from the same volume crude? That's one important factor that has been missed on the supply-side of the fossil-fuel argument. And BIO-fuel is an obvious near-future solution that is compatible with existing fuel-delivery infrastructure.
And then there was the gov't study showing that adding a few ounces of Canola oil per tank in fleet vehicles dropped engine wear (based on analysis of iron contect in the motor-oil when changed) by a significant amount ... >30%. An engine that wears 2/3 normal lasts 50% longer!
Think of the impact of that on reduced manufacturing impact (and reduced auto sales overall! Sorry Detroit)
The summary of the study is that mothers who keep their children and their toys extra clean ("sanitized") were apparently disrupting an important (and unknown) stage in the development of our immune systems.
They postulated that our defense systems needed "practice" and by not letting kids get dirty they suffered a variety of problems later in life.
And then there's the chemical's "off-gassing" from plastics. When kids are climbing on sanitized Fisher-price creations (indoors) instead of climbing trees (outside in the "fresh" air) they are inhaling a low-level cocktail of chemicals whose effects are unknown, but very worrying to scientists.
Plastics in the environment are implicated in everything from breast cancer to the decrease in acquatic birds in the Great Lakes....
I agree, except for one minor point: "But an electric car only has a electric motor that can also act as a generator to stop itself."
As an electrical engineer, I vaguely remember that the braking force of an electric motor is proportional to its speed, so the slower you go the less it works. If there is no other friction (or you are on a hill) it would never stop the vehicle ... only make it very slow (so it almost appears to be stopped ... sort of like how the government operates!)
RE: "> The reality is that any new diesel car is
> not going to negatively impact smog.
Sorry, but even a 0.00001% percent increase is a problem."
This is silliness. You're worried about a 0.00001% percent difference while the Dodge dealership is selling Durango Hemis that get < 15 MPG, V-10 Excursions are used to return the DVD to Blockbuster, and a Hummer is considered a vehicle to aspire to?
Get the EPA to apply fuel-consumption rules to SUVs and you'll get a XX % difference in pollution levels!
Better yet:
Replace every SUV with a Prius or Jetta TDI wagon and you might eliminate the need for the US to import oil. Imagine the overall impact to quality-of-life that could make to the planet!
Brian
Replace every SUV with a Prius or Jetta TDI wagon and you might eliminate the need for the US to import oil. Imagine the overall impact to quality-of-life that could make to the planet"
Ah yes, i think we need to keep in mind that we ought to be generally on the same "side" here. We both want fuel efficient vehicles.
Even the ULSD is sort of a dumb point to constantly rehash, it's just an issue of regulation. Petrol could have been the one with large amounts of sulphur being allowed. Remember leaded gasoline, fer crissakes?
I wonder if chrysler will start to drop mercedes diesels in cars here in the US when the ULSD comes to pass. It wouldn't surprise me.
http://www.motoring.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=812&fArticleId- =2126059
An biodiesel has 3% less energy than regular diesel. Personally, not enough to get me to not consider a renewable, clean, carbon-neutral fuel.
There is a slight increase in nox and particulates offroad diesels without catalysts or particle traps. This is not likely the case for onroad diesels:
http://thesoydailyclub.com/BiodieselBiobased/CleanDieselBiodiesel- 02032004.asp
dave
Hybrid : CO2 Emissions (g/km): 116
Diesel : CO2 Emissions (g/km): 134
Based on this, it appears that hybrid is not only better in emissions contributing towards smog, but also beats a comparable diesel engine in terms of green house emissions"
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-02-03-hybridmileage_x.ht- - - m
"In Consumer Reports’ real-world driving test, the Civic Hybrid averaged 26 mpg in the city, while the Toyota Prius averaged 35 mpg, much less than their respective EPA estimates of 47 and 60 mpg."
http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63413,00.html
If we use the generous figure ( that has been posted here from several sources ) of hybrids getting 30% less than the advertised fuel economy figures, the civic hybrid will put out 150g/km. That's not only more than the civic diesel, it's the same as a bmw 320cd, a heavier and sportier car.
Yes, i know some hybrid owners are getting good fuel economy, but it it apparent that many of not most, are not.
Combine this fact with the others mentioned, ( manufacturing, fuel manufacutre/shipment, longevity, renewable fuels ) and this is why I feel that with current technology diesel is the best bet.
dave
That's a fact. I can pump B100 into my TDI and basically drive on like normal, notwithstanding the possible cold-start issues which CAN be remedied.
My Tahoe is an E85 vehicle and if you read the owners manual you'll never have any desire to run Ethanol through the tank. Substantially lower power, cold-start problems, and substantially lower fuel economy are listed in the manual as "normal" when operating this wonder fuel. The computer is designed to compensate so the engine actually runs, but at a retarded state for the most part.
Very minimal decrease in power/efficiency running B100 in a diesel, and B20 is essentially unperceivable even in cold weather if you're buying reputable fuel. The pumps where I can get B20 is mixed with BP/Amoco supreme and I left some in a jar outside last winter. At -10 it was perfectly fine.
Please post this info if you have it. Maybe it would shut up the diesel antagonists.
Dave,
I think you hit on a very important aspect of this hybrid vs diesel debate. Many hybrid owners are not getting anywhere close to what they believed they were going to get. The reasons have been pointed out. Tire pressure, high speeds, fast starts etc. Normal average type people just want to get in the car and drive it. They only worry about the maintenance schedule if that. The people that are getting close to EPA on the hybrids are fanatical about saving gas. That is fine except it is not the way the average Joe uses a car.
On the other side of the coin, in a diesel such as a VW TDI you just jump in and drive like any other car and you get the great mileage advantage that diesel offers, simple.
Please post this info if you have it. Maybe it would shut up the diesel antagonists.
This bit of information I do have. On the Arctic Oil field there are several well sites that are producing light sweet crude that can run in a diesel generator or truck right out of the well. No production cost at all. I do not know the sulfur content of that crude. I know some fields have high sulfur and have to be handled very cautiously.
Gasoline production is a hazardous business as witnessed by the recent refinery fires. That is one reason for the high price of gasoline. Diesel prices on the other hand are run up by road use taxes. I believe they are kept up equal with unleaded to discourage diesel car sales.
But back to the point we were discussing... emissions. Got data on two comparable cars (say, Civic Hybrid and Jetta TDI) to include every aspect, and support your claims?
Well, for one, CR was a more rigid test with more datapoints.
Also, you're trying to worm away from facts yet again. There's many articles discussing dissapointing MPG from hybrids.
To quote you:
"The bottomline is that a large sample provides information that a single experience under certain condition cannot."
As long as we're mentioning the c&d test:
"The Prius will have been driven 165,000 miles by the time enough dollars are saved on gas to overcome that extra starting cost."
"But back to the point we were discussing... emissions. Got data on two comparable cars (say, Civic Hybrid and Jetta TDI) to include every aspect, and support your claims?"
Exavtly which claims are those?
dave
I don't see a point of arguing emissions differences on the two. The hybrids are cleaner. The VW TDI is cleaner than anything else in the Toyota lineup. Maybe CARB should ban all the Toyota lineup except the Prius, as they have the VW TDI.
I think a bigger issue that is yet to be proven is the longevity of the hybrid vs the diesel. We have very good studies showing diesel cars lasting 300k miles and more up to a million miles. The regulation by the government needs to focus on building cars that last longer as well as being clean & fuel efficient.
According to a UCS study:
"The manufacturing of a new car pumps 4 tons of carbon and nearly 700 pounds of other pollutants into the atmosphere".
I am aware of that. Nothing is preventing the electric motor to apply negative torque(try to spin backward) for the car to come to a complete stop. It is not the best solution but a possible one, which was only necessary to make my original point. :-D
Dennis
I can collect all the worst possible situations for diesel and add them up and come to opposite feeling.
You can not ignore the fact that hybrids are more efficient, powerful and cleaner than any single ICE powertrain vehicle.
Dennis
Let me post some of the highlights.
"Mileage on the Highway
All four cars got more than 40 mpg, and the Prius hit 50. Amazingly, the One-Calorie Toyota Echo squeaked above its EPA highway number (39) to 41 mpg. The diesel, at 42 mpg, fell 2 mpg behind its EPA rating....
Mileage in Town
The Prius again scored at the top with 52 mpg. Dr. Diesel, in last place at 33, was a bit of a surprise. We expected more. Diesels are at their best, relatively speaking, under light loads; they inject very little fuel and they have no throttling losses. Again, the One-Calorie Echo did superbly at 42 mpg....
Mileage in Suburbia
This is a cycle lacking the predictable mileage killers of high speeds and frequent stops and starts (we obeyed all stop signs, of course). The two hybrids tied for top mileage at 54 mpg. Temperatures were in the 60s, and the sky was not cloudy all day. Nor was a discouraging word heard. But there was nothing artificial about conditions....
What Does It All Mean?
Some voices, even some staff engineers, want to say hybrids can't deliver on their EPA ratings; that hybrid technology games the system even though it may do so in good faith. That's the wrong take on the numbers, we think.
Instead, think of hybrids as "software" cars. They decide on their own when to start and stop the engine. The Prius can even move smartly with the fuel burner off. In fact, the Prius runs almost half of the EPA city test without the engine. That's a tremendous achievement.
But if your driving includes higher speeds and less time at stops, your mileage will come up well short of EPA city. On the other hand, if you have more low-'n'-slow, you will benefit more. Nobody, including software gurus, can predict where and how you will drive.
That said, the hybrids produced the best mileage here, and they delivered the most enjoyment per dollar."
Dennis
P.S: I did not paste the whole article.
Dennis
That is your OPINION, it is not FACT. It is easy to prove false.
I am aware of that. Nothing is preventing the electric motor to apply negative torque(try to spin backward) for the car to come to a complete stop. It is not the best solution but a possible one, which was only necessary to make my original point. :-D
We studied this in a motors course talking about induction motors. As an example, we looked at what would happen if you put a magnet beside the rotor of a brake disc (assuming an iron rotor).
The iron moving through the magnetic field induces currents (eddy currents) in the rotor which simply circulate inside the rotor. In turn, they create a magnetic field which acts against the external magnet to slow the rotation (braking force)
Due to resistive losses, all the energy is converted to heat. So it is theoretically possible to replace brake pads with electro-magnets at higher speeds and then use mechanical brakes for low-speed stopping or assisting at high speeds. Imagine how much longer your brakes would last with this setup!
QUESTION: How long do the brakes last on a Hybrid?
They should go a lot longer than on a normal car ... another benefit of hybrid technology!
Brian
The chart on this page has the Average U.S. Refinery Yield. Gasoline comprises just under 50% of the yield while diesel, heating oil, jet fuel and kerosene proportion is just over 30%.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/analysis_publication- s/oil_market_basics/Ref_image_Prod_outp.htm
The chart on this page shows the refining output from different regions of the world. Notice that a greater proportion of North American refinery output is gasoline than the other regions of the world.
The reason for the difference is supply and demand. We use a lot more gasoline in North America than in other regions of the world so naturally our refineries pump out more gasoline. The objective of a refinery is to use downstream processing (e.g. cracking heavier fractions into lighter ones or unifying lighter fractions into heavier ones) to move from the natural yield of products from simple distillation to the desired demand slate.
Of course it would take time and money to rejig our refineries to output more diesel if the car companies started selling a lot more diesel cars but the change in demand would be gradual since it probably takes about 10 to 12 years of new car sales to replace most of the cars currently on the road today.
Dennis
Whoa there. Thought you could slip in that "more powerful" bit without anyone noticing, eh?
Lets briefly look at gas versus diesel power:
Although I don't care for SUVs, as a comparison, lets take a V8 Hemi Durango and go against a VW Touareg TDI. (almost state-of-the-art diesel) Both vehicles in the showrooms and streets of your city.
The VW, a luxury SUV built like a tank, weighs 1000 pounds MORE than the Dodge. The diesel is rated 313HP vs. the Hemi's ~345 HP ( I don't remember exactly) But the Diesel VW hits 60 MPH a full second FASTER than the HEMI!
And it uses 1/2 the fuel in real-world driving (~26 MPG vs. ~13 MPG)
Some comparisons say the heavy VW diesel SUV is faster than the BMW X5 and even the base Porsche Cayenne.
Try racing a Hemi with a Hybrid! I'll put my money on the Hemi.
Here's another comparison.
My VW TDI came with Michelin tires. It would smoke the tires in 1st and 2nd with an engine rated at 90HP.
To get more traction, I upgraded to Yokohama Avid V4 rubber. I still have problems launching properly without smoking in 1st, but 2nd grabs.
I love blowing hopped up Hondas and other winged imports off the lights with my little diesel. It's very cheap thrills at 53 MPG!
Well, not only am I on my 3rd set of tires, I've also had to have the bolts on the front motor-mount replaced because I broke one and the other 2 were "stretched" and near braking according to the mechanic at VW. This is the mount that takes the torque of the engine.
QUESTION: Show me a hybrid that has problems breaking the bolts on the engine mounts because of the "greater power" than a diesel!!
However, electric motors have incredible torque at low speeds (torque is inversely proportional to speed, I believe), so they should be able to jump off the line smartly.... but I'd bet a VW TDI engine would blow apart a Toyota hybrid drivetrain ... I doubt it would be able to handle the power.
One post stated that some crude can be run in diesel engines, meaning that a tanker of that crude translates roughly into a tanker of diesel.
But a tanker of crude translates into a small fraction of a tanker of gasoline because it must be refined. Its like extracing gold from dirt. They don't just dig up pure gold in a mine. They throw away dirt (tailings) and keep <0.1% of it as gold.
Same with crude ... we throw it away to make gas, when we could be using most of it for diesel.
(they don't throw it away ... its used for other things like paving roads, tar for roofs, ....)
And I think you're possibly a way off here:
Of course it would take time and money to rejig our refineries to output more diesel...
I don't think it would be any work.
In fact, I believe it would be a LOT LESS WORK because they have to do so much to extract the gasoline which is a relatively small portion of the crude.
But to create diesel there is very little processing involved.
For example, the number that I remember was 6:1 meaning that it took 6x as much crude to make a barrel of gas compared to the crude needed to make a barrel of diesel.
Let's say that "they" claim we'll be out of fuel in 50 years if we burn gas. If the 6:1 ratio is true, the same reserves would last 300 years if we switched to diesel, leaving a lot more time to develop infrastructure for Hydrogen or whatever we migrate to.
But the question is: What is the ratio?
Is it 6:1, 3:1, 10:1, ????
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/we- ekly_petroleum_status_report/current/txt/wpsr.txt
Its titled: "Summary of Weekly Petroleum Data for the Week Ending September 10, 2004"
It shows that gas consumption is UP, diesel is DOWN.
It also breaks diesel "distillates" into 3 groups by sulphur content:
Distillate Fuel Oil (7) 128.3
15 ppm sulfur and Under 1.7
> 15 ppm to 500 ppm sulfur 73.5
> 500 ppm sulfur 53.1
(That's the US inventory at the end of the week in millions of barrels.)
Notice that there's some low-sulfur diesel (that many readers use in their vehicles), "regular" diesel, and then some "nasty diesel" that is >500 ppm of sulfur.
Know where the nasty stuff goes? According to the gov't figures, that's what you call "heating oil".
Ever wonder where smog comes from? What do the boilers under the sky-scrapers burn? You guessed it!
When will the EPA start looking at pollution from buldings instead of banning 50 MPG cars that are burning "the good stuff"!???
moparbad said: "That is your OPINION, it is not FACT. It is easy to prove false."
How are you going to prove that one head are better than two? Given either gas or diesel ICE, if add an hybrid option, you can gain efficiency, power, and lower emission all at the same time! You can just argue how a hybrid design distribute those gains.
Dennis
They should go a lot longer than on a normal car ... another benefit of hybrid technology!"
Prius comes with relatively small brakes. The classic Prius came out 7 years ago and I haven't hear anyone needing to replace the brake pads. Even those drove over 200,000 miles. The battery still works as well.
BTW, all I was saying about eBrakes was that the electric motor can apply electricity to stop the car instead of creating resistance by acting as a generator during slow speed.
Dennis
However, electric motors have incredible torque at low speeds (torque is inversely proportional to speed, I believe), so they should be able to jump off the line smartly.... but I'd bet a VW TDI engine would blow apart a Toyota hybrid drivetrain ... I doubt it would be able to handle the power."
You were misguided by moparbad's comment. I wasn't comparing gas-electric hybrid to diesel. Please read my statement more carefully. Regarding your TDI, I haven't hear any hybrid breaking bolts since they are highly reliable. ;-D
50kW electric motor in the Prius can produce 295 lbs-ft of torque! Prius beats Jetta TDI in 0-60mph acceleration. If you are not aware of improvements made in 04 Prius, take a look at here.
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/ths2/index.html
Lexus is coming out with RX400H with 120kW electric motor in the front and 50kW in the back. Imagine how much torque they can produce?
Dennis
Well-to-tank efficiency for gasoline is 88%. Now, go find info for diesel. It'll be interesting.
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/fchv/fchv12.html
Dennis
Yes they do and tests I saw had the braking distance 20 feet further than the Jetta TDI 70-0 mph. Why do they put rear disks on the European Prius and not the USA version. Could it be that the Europeans are used to better handling and braking?
Environment: Sales of hybrid vehicles to grow rapidly in Europe
Hybrid Electric Vehicles are on the way
By 2015, the penetration rate is expected to be around 8 to 10 per cent, with the majority of hybrid applications being constituted by mild systems.
As yet, Honda Motor Corporation is the only vehicle manufacturer to have commercialised mild hybrids in Europe and - supported by the launch of its Civic Hybrid in Spring 2003 - is poised to lead the European mild HEV market until around 2005.
However, Frost and Sullivan cautions that uptake of full hybrids will be sluggish throughout the decade.
Julia Reuter, Research Analyst at Frost and Sullivan, notes: "We are confident that European vehicle manufacturers will follow the mild HEV route.
While R and D outlay in the full hybrid powertrain sector is substantial, the European Market is more focused on CO2 rather than NOX emission reduction.
This makes full hybridisation a less prominent issue than in other markets, such as Japan and North America."
Oh wait, none of that is true. Yet we still don't have those cool European deisals, despite the performance and better fuel economy. Huh. Wonder why that is?
OH, real good! I hope, I use the brakes minimally. I went to ceramic pads also, which seem better than the OEM junk you get. When I talked to my brake man he was not thrilled with Honda brakes as a whole which might explain the Acura brakes. I think the German cars do not skimp on brakes like many others.
225 ft: Toyota Echo
192 ft: Toyota Prius
182 ft: Honda Civic Hybrid/ VW Jetta TDI (Tie)
There is a bit of confusion there. That figure from Toyota is actually refinery to tank efficiency and is related to handling energy losses. The largest is fuel consumed by the delivery trucks.
In simplest terms, their 88% figure means that it takes 12 gallons of fuel to deliver 100 gallons.
It is not related to what percentage of crude becomes gasoline.
On that CRUDE-TO-GAS conversion, it is higher in USA than any other company. There is a lot of expense (and energy) spent converting perfectly good (diesel) fuel into gasoline in "downstream processing" to meet the gasoline needs in the US.
This is what makes gas cost so much. Diesel doesn't have those extra expenses. So diesel purchasers are SUBSIDIZING GASOLINE by paying the same price for a product that costs about 1/2 as much to produce.
In fact, I believe that the oil companies are intentionally putting crazy prices on diesel to discourage the adoption of a technology that will reduce both demand and profits for the oil companies if it were sold at fair prices and the market responded by replacing gas cars with diesel equivalents.
The hybrids are also a threat to their profits with their reduced consumption.
You missed the fine print on the link I provided. Well To Tank and Tank To Wheel are commonly used terms.
Well-to-tank: Efficiency with which the fuel is obtained, processed, stored and transported to the vehicle's tank.
You want to know the difference of Gasoline and Diesel in the "obtained"(refined?) and "processed"(unleaded?) stage right? Why not compare the whole Well-to-tank? The way that Diesel is stored and transported might be different from gasoline with associate cost and efficiencies.
You can refine heating oil to diesel then diesel to gasoline but not the other way around because gasoline is more pure.
Dennis
Thanks!
This is a reality check for those that live anywhere near a railroad track. According to my crude calculations the average railroad engine produces 12,000 times more PM, NOx, and CO2 as a modern VW TDI car that is running 15 PPM ULSD. This ULSD is available in many civilized communities of the USA. Put in simple language you can have 12,000 VW TDI cars on the road before it equals one railroad engine spewing black soot down the tracks. It will not be until 2010 before the railroads have to be in compliance with the same 15 PPM that will be required for vehicles on the road in 2006. If you are burning oil in your furnace at home it is very likely as polluting as 3000 PPM diesel allowed for non road uses. It is fair for the railroads and big contractors to dump tons of crap in the air. But some little guy wants to use less of our natural resources in a simple little diesel car and he is shot down. Or forced to buy some complex technologically advanced whiz bang machine that is only built to make the automaker look environmentally conscientious.
http://www.ilta.org/Rules&Regs/usld.htm
http://exotic.railfan.net/dieselfaq.htm
Are diesels the way to go to boost American fuel economy?
To tackle the question, you have to begin with Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) regulations, which are specifically targeted at the domestic auto producers of Detroit and, oddly, quite contrary to public demand. Because of CAFE the challenge for improvement in fuel economy is greatest for domestic producers.......
This is really NOT a diesel vs. hybrid type of article, however, it is relevant to the future of diesels and some may have interest in reading it.
Toyota Corolla Diesel
Engine Type: 1.4 8v D-4D
Gearbox: 5M/T
Acceleration(0-62mph): 13.3 sec
Combined L/100 km (93/116/EEC): 4.8 (49.0 mpg)
Emission standard: 2004 Euro IV
Fully Loaded Great Britian Price: £15,995 ($28,916)
Toyota Avensis Diesel (Scion tC is based on this platform)
Engine Type: 2.0 16v D-4D
Gearbox: 5 M/T
Acceleration(0-62mph): 11.2 sec
Combined L/100 km (93/116/EEC): 5.8 (40.6 mpg)
Emission standard: 2004 Euro IV
Fully Loaded Great Britian Price: £22,845 ($41,299)
Toyota Prius HSD
Engine Type: 1.5 Hybrid Synergy Drive
Gearbox: eCVT
Acceleration(0-62mph): 10.9 sec
Combined L/100 km (93/116/EEC) 4.3 (54.7 mpg)
Emission Standard: 2012 Future Standard (Euro 6)
Fully Loaded Great Britian Price: £20,045 ( $36,237)
My conclusion is that a full hybrid(Prius) outperform diesels in acceleration, fuel economy and low emission. The price is also fair considering the size.
Links to specs:
http://www.toyota-europe.com/showroom/corolla/specs.asp
http://www.toyota-europe.com/showroom/avensis/specs.asp
http://www.toyota-europe.com/showroom/prius/specs.asp
Link to Price:
http://www.toyota.co.uk (Click on New Cars)
Dennis
What's the hybrid Toyota SUV's going to run? Any pricing yet?
I would say many of the newer Hondas & Toyotas are reliable and have gone 200k plus with minimal trouble. The debate was about hybrids and their longevity compared to diesels. There are some here that insist that you should dump your car when it reaches the end of the warranty. In the case of a hybrid I agree. When a few brave souls drive their hybrids for 10 years and or 200k-300k miles plus we will know if they are indeed capable of decent longevity. Obviously I bought into the Japanese myth of reliability way too early, 1964 Toyota Land cruiser. I know first hand the feeling of being left stranded by the road with a broken down NEW vehicle. It was 30 years before I bought another Toyota and that was a PU that was also very high maintenance. We've got a 1990 Mazda 626 that is running good with little other than routine maintenance. Some are better than others.
Prius is closer in size to Avensis, not Corolla. In performance and fuel economy, Prius is in another league. Diesels are only offered in Manual transmission. Automatic would make them even lower performance.
Dennis