___You missed a few items The Corolla Diesel in hatchback form will be darn near identical in size to the Prius II and in its diesel format, the fuel economy is also much closer. The price delta between the two is even more glaring then it is over here given the Diesel’s 49 mpg vs. the Prius II’s 54 although the Toyota Diesel is a pig given its lowly performance. Would you pay a $7,000 Premium for the Prius II vs. the Corolla hatch given they are almost equal in size (within 3 or 4 cu. ft. of one another) and receive almost the same fuel economy (49 vs. 55)?
___Now lets look at a real European Diesel as can be purchased in the Honda Accord Saloon iCDTi.
Engine Type: 2.2 L iCDTi Gearbox: 5-speed manual Acceleration (0-62mph): 9.5 sec Combined L/100 km 5.4 (43.55 mpg) Emission Standard: Euro IV Fully Loaded Great Britain Price: £20,247 ($36,598)
___The Accord iCDTi is faster, larger, safer, slightly less fuel efficient, and < $60 difference. Care to guess which of the two automobiles is selling like hot cakes in Europe right now? You got it, the Accord iCDTi. The Prius II isn’t even a consideration given just 4,800 have been sold on the entire continent as of Sept 1 of this year.
"The Accord iCDTi is faster, larger, safer, slightly less fuel efficient, and < $60 difference."
Accord iCDTi is a manual transmission car with the need to shift. Prius gets >10mpg as well. Honda's iCDTi gives better fuel economy than Toyota's D-CAT but D-CAT produces about 2x less emission. Trade off in diesel i guess. So, fuel economy would go down further as diesels get cleaner to qualify for emission standards. The cost of clean diesel and full hybrid are about the same in Europe!
Oh, and check out, "Toyota Expects Prius Sales in Europe to Surge 83%" article.
"Regulators are wont to raising the bar, because otherwise they'd have to go out of business. Detroit doesn't want to admit it can achieve stringent levels, because then the usual suspects will think they weren't tough enough"
I think that sums up the whole emissions bureaucracy plain and simple. I know the bosses at CARB run CA like their own empire. Someone needs to bring these environmentalists back to reality. The only people that pay are the little guys like you and I. The industrialists carry on as usual. If they don't get their way they go to another country and set up shop.
Is it bad that someone does their job and stay in business? It is Environment regulators' job to protect the environment and people. That's why all passenger cars either gas or diesel need to follow the same standard. There are no exceptions for diesel this, diesel that, etc...
Tell us Dennis, how do you really feel about the Prius and HSD?
Do you think Toyota will be able to get enough batteries for all their planned hybrids? One Toyota article said they are currently building 12,000 Prius per month. This article says 10,000 expanding to 15,000 the first half of 2005. Who do we believe?
PS I would not even think twice if offered a Honda Accord diesel or a Prius at close to the same price. I trust Honda over Toyota any day of the week. I keep my cars a long time and I don't believe the Prius will hold up for the long haul.
"Is it bad that someone does their job and stay in business?"
It is in my book. When they keep raising the bar and I have to pay for their foolishness. You did not read all I said. The same people that "protecting our environment" allow large global companies to pollute the air and water. Why because it is easier to go after the little guy. They know they will get the car makers to add all this crap and pass the cost on to you and I. While the shipping and manufacturing companies get away with murder.
___83%? My goodness, they will make it all the way up to what, 20,000 Prius II sales? on a continent larger then the US!
___The Prius II came out approximately the same time as the Accord iCDTi IIRC. If I ever find the total sales figures for the year, I will definitely let you know who finished on top but the European automotive press loved the iCDTi. I bet it is going to outsell the Prius II 10:1 quite easily actually. It is that the Honda iCDTi is faster, better handling, safer, and will definitely have a lower TCO.
"Tell us Dennis, how do you really feel about the Prius and HSD?"
Prius is the first implementation/adaptation of HSD. There is a great potential in this drivetrain that can revolutionalize the car industry. That means more car for the money. Many industry experts agree with me also.
Year----Country-----Award 1997-98 Japan ‘Car design award’ 1997-98 Japan ‘Car of the Year’ 1997-98 Japan ‘New technology of the year’ 1998 UK ‘Environmental Commitment’, AA Awards 1998 UK ‘Auto Design Award’, IBCAM-British Carriage and Automobile Manufacturers 1999 Austria 1st rank ‘Environment Award’, ARBOE (Austrian touring club) 1999 Austria ‘Environmental Award’, Freie Fahrt (Austria) 1999 UK ‘Esso Energy Award’, Royal Society 1999 World ‘Global 500 Award for Environmental Commitment’, United Nations 1999 Europe ‘Best Eco Engine’, International Engine of the Year 1999 Europe ‘Best engine 1.4L-1.8L category’, International Engine of the Year 1999 UK ‘Special car award’, Fleet News 1999 UK ‘Technical innovation award’, Fleet World Honours 1999-00 Japan ‘Car of the double decade’, by Japan’s COTY committee 2000 Europe ‘Best Eco Engine’, International Engine of the Year 2001 UK ‘2001 Specialist Award’, Top Gear 2001 USA ‘Best Engineered Car of 2001’, Society of Automotive Engineers 2001 USA One of the ’10 Best Engines for 2001’, Ward’s Auto World Magazine 2001 USA ‘Greenest gasoline-powered passenger sedan in the United States’, American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy 2001 USA “Corporate Achievement”, 2001 National Conservation Achievement Awards 2002 Belgium “FuturAuto” prize winner, Belgian Federation of Automotive Journalists
The recent awards listed on John's site:
Motor Trend 2004 Car of the Year North American 2004 Car of the Year 2004 Design of the Year Best Engineered Vehicle for 2004 International Engine of the Year 2004 Best New Engine 2004 Best Fuel Economy Engine 2004 Best Engine 1.4-liter to 1.8-liter 2004 Car & Driver One of the Ten Best in 2004 Fortune Magazine 25 Best Products of the Year Popular Science Best of What's New award
"Do you think Toyota will be able to get enough batteries for all their planned hybrids?"
Yes. I wouldn't be surprise if Ovonic will be the supplier for Prius production when it started in US since they cross-license with Panasonic. BTW, electric storage device does not have to be battery.
"Who do we believe?"
I would believe the report that coming directly from Toyota.
"I bet it is going to outsell the Prius II 10:1 quite easily actually."
Diesel is generally selling better than gasoline cars in Europe. Hybrids came into market way after Diesel became popular. The fact that Prius sale is expected to surge by 83% shows the gain of hybrid popularity, possibly taking away market share from Diesel.
If you have not been keeping up with latest Diesels, here is what Toyota going to offer soon. The new engine produces more torque(295lbs-ft vs. 250lbs-ft and horsepower(180hp vs. 140hp) than iCDT-i engine.
Toyota D- 4D 180 Clean Power • Equipped with the innovative Toyota D-4D clean power concept engine • Establishing the concept of “Clean Power”: high performance with the lowest emissions • Class-leading power and torque: 180 DIN hp (132 kW) and 400 Nm • NOX and PM emissions are respectively about 50% and about 80% below EURO IV, thanks to Toyota D-CAT
Diesel is generally selling better than gasoline cars in Europe. Hybrids came into market way after Diesel became popular. The fact that Prius sale is expected to surge by 83% shows the gain of hybrid popularity, possibly taking away market share from Diesel.
___The Honda designed iCDTi became available for the first time late last year. Secondly, 83% increase is a projection from a lowly 7 - 8,000 units. This means zip over the entire continent of Europe. What do you say, 15,000 Prius II’s will sell. At best? I bet Toyota loses more market share of gassers then anyone will lose of Diesels.
If you have not been keeping up with latest Diesels, here is what Toyota going to offer soon. The new engine produces more torque(295lbs-ft vs. 250lbs-ft and horsepower(180hp vs. 140hp) than iCDT-i engine.
___So a European can purchase the latest powerful D-CAT today? Sorry, they cannot. Every manufacturer has higher performance and cleaner diesels in their design shops including Honda, VW, Ford, GM, and whoever else wants to compete in Europe. When they are released, then you can tell me what is and isn’t available. Until that time, the iCDTi is not only a far better performer, it is larger, safer, better handling, and costs ~ the same price as the Prius II. The 1.7 L iCDTi is in development and Honda is shooting for Euro V for it. Then you will see it arrive on our shores w/ ULSD being standardized here. These iCDTi’s will meet SULEV specs for CO and PM, ULEV spec’s for HC, and TLEV spec’s for NOx let alone cost thousands less then their Hybrid counterparts.
___For everyone This is kind of a neat commercial for the Honda iCDTi’s ;-)
"It's too bad that this--your main argument--is pure conjecture on your part."
Technical explanation:
Exhaust port injection The effective operation of the DPNR catalyst relies on the engine management system varying the air-fuel ratio in the exhaust gases. To do this, a fifth injection nozzle has been added and placed in the exhaust port. At the critical moment, fuel is injected into the exhaust manifold in order to create stoichiometric conditions in the DPNR catalyst. This 'rich spike' allows the DPNR catalyst to reduce and release the stored NOx. http://www.autoshow.ro/autoshow/articles/?article_id=1370
"It sounds complicated, but put simply, it is an advanced catalyst, reducing emissions. The engine manage- ment works to save fuel when the car's cruising, helping to achieve fuel returns of 46.3mpg. That's good - but the D-4D manages 48.7mpg." http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/articles/ae_ae_previews/toyota_avens- is.html
Dennis
P.S: How many times are you going to protest me so I can feed you information to appease you? Things that I say are meaningful and I can back them up. I don't just geredes out loud.
___Have you ever heard how lean burn in the IMA and non-IMA equipped ICE’s work? Not that Honda has been using this since the early 90’s but a slightly rich mixture is passed through to clear the NOx Cat
During lean burn operation, the exhaust gas contains a larger percentage of oxygen (O2) and NOx, the NOx being primarily nitrogen monoxide (NO). The platinum catalyzes the O2 and NO to produce nitrogen dioxide (NO2), which is able to be stored on the Ti-Na surface. When it determines that the Ti-Na surface is saturated, the Insight temporarily richens the mixture. This action decreases the NOx and O2 in the exhaust, and raises the levels of hydrocarbons (HC) and carbon monoxide (CO). The platinum is then able to use the HC and CO to catalyze the NO2 (that has been stored) into harmless nitrogen gas (N2), carbon dioxide (CO2) and water vapor (H20).
P.S: How many times are you going to protest me so I can feed you information to appease you? Things that I say are meaningful and I can back them up.
___You mean how “HSD is superior to IMA” yet doesn’t achieve the range of an IMA equipped automobile vs. your continually posted 967 miles at 32 mph HSD achievement. HSD equipped automobile w/ the fuel economy of just 85 mpg? Superior performance of HSD at > 11 seconds to 60? The Accord V6 is not a 7.5 second to 60 automobile? An Accord will never achieve 900 + miles on a single tank of fuel. The RXh and Highlander are sub 8 second vehicles and it will eat the V6 Accord or Accord Hybrid up no matter that they weigh ~ 25% more and the SUV platform is guaranteed to handle worse? The Honda designed iCDTi will be bested by Toyota’s “in the test center” diesel that is superior yet what is available today in the Euro Honda Accord offers superior performance, larger size, higher safety, and slightly less fuel economy for a similar price as that of the Toyota Hybrid in particular? At least those purchasing the Honda designed iCDTi today are picking up a great performing diesel instead of an also ran like the comparison you posted earlier with the Diesel Avensis, Diesel Corolla hatch, and the Prius II.
___Keep them coming given you don’t own a hybrid, probably have never driven a hybrid, haven’t ever driven anything with or for high fuel economy, and no very little about a Hybrid’s characteristics in the real world.
___Back this up the next time you want to play a little “HSD is superior” or Toyota diesel tech is superior because you thought incorrectly that it was so.
Prius is closer in size to Avensis, not Corolla. In performance and fuel economy, Prius is in another league. Diesels are only offered in Manual transmission. Automatic would make them even lower performance.
I didn't say they weren't closer in size, I said they were in a different league and not worthy of comparing prices. Sort of like comparing the Camry to the Avalon and saying the only difference is price. Different class of vehicle. And a 5mpg difference (diesel vs gas) and 2 second 0-60 difference hardly puts them in a different performance/economy league. Even with the 5mpg difference, the diesel is cheaper to operate because of the price difference in the fuels.
Perhaps if the Prius were a manual tranny it would sell better. Less than 20% of car sales in europe are automatics. Granted that is very slowly changing, but the vast majority are not willing to give up their manuals. If the diesels were offered with the same type of CVT as the Prius (regardless whether you want to call it a transmission or not!) they most likely would not be lower performing.
US refiners remain on target to supply ultralow-sulfur highway diesel fuel during the next 5 years, the US Environmental Protection Agency reported.
When fully implemented, EPA's Clean Diesel Program will reduce 2.6 million tons/year of nitrogen oxides (NOx) emissions from diesel exhaust—the equivalent of eliminating air pollution from 13 million trucks, the agency said. The reductions in NOx, an ozone precursor, largely will come from catalytic converters required for the first time in new diesel-fueled vehicles. Reduction of the sulfur in fuel is necessary to protect catalysts in the new equipment.
""It's too bad that this--your main argument--is pure conjecture on your part."
Technical explanation:"
That's funny dennis. Please, keep the "technical explanations" coming, like how the battery is being charged while the electric motor is providing assist.
All your article shows is that toyota is falling behind on diesels, and doesn't have very good emissions technology. Other manufacturers are increasing both fuel economy and lowering emissions, simultaneously.
Nice try, let's see more "technical explanations."
"I said they were in a different league and not worthy of comparing prices. Sort of like comparing the Camry to the Avalon and saying the only difference is price."
I totally agree. If you acknowledge this, why did you make statements like "looks like the Prius is a $7,321 premium over the Corolla."? It's called biased against Prius and you know it.
"And a 5mpg difference (diesel vs gas) and 2 second 0-60 difference hardly puts them in a different performance/economy league."
When Avensis diesel is 2.1 secs faster than Corolla diesel in 0-60, it is considered in different league? When Prius is faster and gives better mpg than both, it is not considered in different league? Dude, you sure have double standard!
"Granted that is very slowly changing, but the vast majority are not willing to give up their manuals."
I disagree. I believe, in Europe people mostly drive manual because they can save more fuel and get more performance. If there is a technology that can offer them without compromise, they sure will switch, especially in the city. By eliminating transmission, HSD bypasses fuel and performance loss related with traditional transmissions.
"NEW YORK and STUTTGART, Germany, Sept. 9 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Mercedes-Benz has successfully reinforced its position in the United States -- its second-largest sales market -- with a very appealing diesel model, the E320 CDI. In the five months since the vehicle was introduced, it has reached its 2004 sales target of 3,000 units. This spectacular market launch also represents a fabulous comeback for diesel technology in North America."
"All your article shows is that toyota is falling behind on diesels, and doesn't have very good emissions technology."
No, you are funny because Toyota currently has the cleanest diesel solution available in the world. The sad thing is, even with this technology, it might not meet US Federal emission standard which is already in effect today.
"like how the battery is being charged while the electric motor is providing assist."
That statement just show how little knowledge you have about Hybrid Synergy Drive. You must be thinking about Honda's Integrated Motor Assist. HSD has two electric motors/generators. One can generate and the other drive the car! Honda's IMA only has one electric motor which can only either generate or assist.
"Nice try, let's see more "technical explanations."
Nice! Slap the hand that feeds you. Whenever I bring information to the discussion table, not only you protest and criticize them, you do not provide any constructive comment/info to the discussion. Peace.
I totally agree. If you acknowledge this, why did you make statements like "looks like the Prius is a $7,321 premium over the Corolla."? It's called biased against Prius and you know it.
No, it's because the Aventis is a completely different class of vehicle. The Corolla and Prius are both economy cars, regardless of size. The Aventis is a more refined vehicle with higher trim levels. Same as Camry vs Avalon. Same as Corolla vs Camry. They're not likely to be cross-shopped regardless. Price comparison is not valid.
When Avensis diesel is 2.1 secs faster than Corolla diesel in 0-60, it is considered in different league? When Prius is faster and gives better mpg than both, it is not considered in different league? Dude, you sure have double standard!
See above. You're comparing a cheap economy car, vs expensive economy car, vs moderate car. You're meshing my separate statements anyway. The 2.1 seconds between the PRIUS and the COROLLA does not put them in a different PERFORMANCE league.
I disagree. I believe, in Europe people mostly drive manual because they can save more fuel and get more performance. If there is a technology that can offer them without compromise, they sure will switch, especially in the city.
I agree they'll switch, but it will be a slow process. Most are very skeptical and probably should be considering the reliability issues with the typical automatic and CVT transmissions that are available. Toyota should probably not even use that term considering the differences. Just scares people away that don't know.
"No, that's a statement you made before others corrected you."
I dare you to find that statement which I supposedly made! Check msg#209. This is what I said, "When you reach to the top of the hill, Prius battery would be full, not empty. Prius has two electric motors/generators. HSD can generate electricity and provide power to electric motor at the same time. HSD will route excess horsepower from the engine and convert it into electricity. This dynamic adjustment in drivetrain provides high torque in conditions like climbing hills when high torque is desire. 50 kilowatts electric motor is capable of producing 295 lbs-ft torque." usbseawolf2000 Apr 27, 2004 4:09pm
The answer to that discussion is that it takes extremely demanding Eisenhower tunnel to deplete Prius' battery. Prius will have power to recharge it's battery when climbing any hill less demanding than Eisenhower tunnel. Oh, Prius never dipped below 60mph.
I am pretty sure you will deny this statement that you made "The transmission doesn't reduce or multiply *horsepower* in any way, shape, or form." in msg#259. LOL dhanley Apr 29, 2004 3:51pm
"You are learning, albeit slowly."
I like that response ;-D I tried my best not to enjoy your uncontrollable knee-jerk replies but I must admit I am enjoying them. Don't worry, I think you are a great person.
"Could Toyota's eCVT be used in a non Hybrid gas or diesel car? "
No. Fundamental idea of Planetary CVT is to take two opposite powertrains and switch/balance between the two.
For example, drivetain1 would be best for slow speed and drivetrain2 would be best for high speed. By balancing the usage between the two, you have a combination of drivetrains(powertain) that is perfect for any driving speeds or conditions.
"If so, why don't they put it in all their cars?"
Since it is not possible, Toyota will offer all the car in their lineup with HSD drivetrain by the year of 2010.
Fundamental idea of Planetary CVT is to take two opposite powertrains and switch/balance between the two.
Well, in case of HSD, that is true. But the concept used in the PSD isn't novel! Planetary Gearset has found many applications. As a matter of fact, it is to be found in the "Acceleration Device" in the AWD system of the RL. A planetary gear set (in the rear differential) is used to accelerate ("speed up") the outer wheel by up to 5% (compared to inside wheel) during cornering.
"But the concept used in the PSD isn't novel! Planetary Gearset has found many applications."
Traditional automatic transmission contains multiple Planetary Gearsets within. HSD is the first to use Planetary Gearset integrated in the powertrain. Without it, HSD would need two gas engine to achieve the same functionality. One dedicated to power the wheel and another to generate electricity. Ability to split power from one engine simplified the design so much. HSD is the fruit of fresh reinvention that does not build upon traditional existing technology(idea).
I wasn’t speaking of transmission per se, but the concept that is utilized within. When I think about it, Honda’s ATTS is designed around the idea! The difference in this case, however, is that the gear set works in reverse. One input with split output (and appropriately apportioned torque to the wheels). In the eCVT, there are two inputs combining (in proportions) to a single output.
"One input with split output (and appropriately apportioned torque to the wheels). In the eCVT, there are two inputs combining (in proportions) to a single output."
Actually PSD functions both ways. It splits ICE power into generating electricity(planet carrier) and to the wheels(ring gear). PSD also combine power from two input into a single output. It all depends on what MG1 is behaving as, either motor or generator.
The transmission doesn't reduce or multiply *horsepower* in any way, shape, or form. It is true that transmission doesn’t divide/multiply horsepower, but it does affect how much of it is delivered at the wheels. That’s the point of a transmission anyway.
My argument was on concept, not on whether electric motor can switch between motor and generator modes. The hybrids have to switch to get the job done.
" It shows a lack of understanding of conservation of energy"
Get a grip of Power Split Device concept and you'll know what I am talking about. Horsepower from the gas engine is split into two ways. One way to the wheels and another to generate electricity. That electricity is combined with the battery to power the other huge 50kW electric motor! What is so hard to understand that?
"My argument was on concept, not on whether electric motor can switch between motor and generator modes. "
I wouldn't call it argument. ;-D It's a discussion. I am also taking conceptually. What MG1 does changes the situaion to either power being split or combine! That's the point I am making.
"It is true that transmission doesn’t divide/multiply horsepower, but it does affect how much of it is delivered at the wheels. That’s the point of a transmission anyway."
You listening Dave? Everytime you change a gear, the engine horsepower is being added on to the power created by the previous gear. Therefore, multiplying horsepower. Let me remind you that we were on the topic of driving uphill so, don't give me your explanation focusing on the engine. You have to look at the power output at the wheel.
This is a better one because it is interactive. Check out how Prius HSD works by clicking on "Heavy Acceleration". You'll see what I am talking about. It doesn't violate any physics law.
Quit challenging each others' ability to read and understand, and get rid of the unnecessary, hostile tone.
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"This is a better one because it is interactive. Check out how Prius HSD works by clicking on "Heavy Acceleration". You'll see what I am talking about. It doesn't violate any physics law."
Dude, that says that the battery is used in this situation, contradicting the claim that the battery will charge while climbing the hill.
I rented a Prius and it did indeed CHARGE the battery when climbing a hill. It was really surprised and even suspected the graphic was incorrect. Apparently I gained a blue bar after I crested the hill. Quite a cool car!
That shows peak horsepower at a given gear. When a car reaches the 5th gear, the engine would of output more than 127hp total(starting from 1st gear) because each gear peaks at 127hp total of five times.
"Dude, that says that the battery is used in this situation"
So, that takes care of this part of my statement. "HSD can generate electricity and provide power to electric motor at the same time." Notice how power from the Generator combines with the battery to power the Electric Motor. EOD.
"contradicting the claim that the battery will charge while climbing the hill."
Now click on "Highway Cruising" and see how the battery is being recharged once-in-a-while. Cruising takes about 15hp from ICE to overcome wind/tire resistance. Now imagine a situation where there is a 50hp resistance. BTW, it would be a hill climbing. HSD can ask ICE to output 60hp instead, while directing the extra 10hp to recharge the battery(if needed).
Prius occasionally end up with more battery power on top of the hill for a reason. Hill climbing situation triggers the ICE to output more power. ICE is most efficient when it is at full load. Therefore, it is beneficial for HSD to recharge the battery to use it at later "needy" time. There aren't any hill long enough or demanding enough that can stress out the Prius(except Eisenhower Tunnel) in the U.S.
The computer in HSD is well programmed to make it smart enough to take advantage of such situations. This is why Prius gets higher MPG when set on cruise control. Not all cruise controls are created equal since HSD has complete control over the dual powertrain while others only have control over the amount of fuel being injected.
When a car reaches the 5th gear, the engine would of output more than 127hp total(starting from 1st gear) because each gear peaks at 127hp total of five times
I know, it's hard to express in words. It is actually a calculus question. You can find exact power output by taking the Integral of each graph(per gear) and combining them to get the total output.
The computer in HSD is well programmed to make it smart enough to take advantage of such situations. This is why Prius gets higher MPG when set on cruise control. Not all cruise controls are created equal since HSD has complete control over the dual powertrain while others only have control over the amount of fuel being injected.
___Your lack of knowledge and experience in regards to some Prius topics makes me wonder why you post here? Where did you come up with the garbage posted above anyway? Dan’s 32 mph drive again? Anyone that knows how to drive for high fuel economy and has spent more then 10 minutes behind the windscreen of a Prius II will figure out that what you posted is mostly non-sense.
___Might I suggest you spend some time some time with a Graham scanner connected to a Prius I to figure out the best way to achieve higher fuel economy in a Toyota Hybrid. Maybe a game gauged MDX or Accord would help as well. An Insight would teach you more in 5 minutes then you could learn in a lifetime of reading Afterward, transfer said knowledge to the Prius II. This would be after you have more then .005 hours behind the wheel of one (if you have at all) because at this point, you don’t have a clue about how to achieve high fuel economy let alone speak intelligently about doing so.
___Just to give you a gift of knowledge because you apparently need it. An IMA based Hybrid can have a higher SoC at the top of a mountain then at the starting point of said mountain as well. This has been done with an IMA equipped Hybrid designed over 6 + years ago so what is the big deal about HSD doing the same today?
Comments
___You missed a few items The Corolla Diesel in hatchback form will be darn near identical in size to the Prius II and in its diesel format, the fuel economy is also much closer. The price delta between the two is even more glaring then it is over here given the Diesel’s 49 mpg vs. the Prius II’s 54 although the Toyota Diesel is a pig given its lowly performance. Would you pay a $7,000 Premium for the Prius II vs. the Corolla hatch given they are almost equal in size (within 3 or 4 cu. ft. of one another) and receive almost the same fuel economy (49 vs. 55)?
___Now lets look at a real European Diesel as can be purchased in the Honda Accord Saloon iCDTi.
Engine Type: 2.2 L iCDTi
Gearbox: 5-speed manual
Acceleration (0-62mph): 9.5 sec
Combined L/100 km 5.4 (43.55 mpg)
Emission Standard: Euro IV
Fully Loaded Great Britain Price: £20,247 ($36,598)
Link to specs: http://www.honda.co.uk/cars/newcars/specification.jsp?yearId=2004- &modelId=10410&bodyId=10730&bodyDescription=Saloon&am- p;engineId=&badgeId=&transmissionId=&colourId=&co- lourAllocationId=&wheelPartNo=&optionType=spec
___The Accord iCDTi is faster, larger, safer, slightly less fuel efficient, and < $60 difference. Care to guess which of the two automobiles is selling like hot cakes in Europe right now? You got it, the Accord iCDTi. The Prius II isn’t even a consideration given just 4,800 have been sold on the entire continent as of Sept 1 of this year.
http://en.ce.cn/World/Asia-Pacific/200409/24/t20040924_1835441.sh- tml
Sales of the Prius have lagged in Europe, where diesel-powered cars are more popular.
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Accord iCDTi is a manual transmission car with the need to shift. Prius gets >10mpg as well. Honda's iCDTi gives better fuel economy than Toyota's D-CAT but D-CAT produces about 2x less emission. Trade off in diesel i guess. So, fuel economy would go down further as diesels get cleaner to qualify for emission standards. The cost of clean diesel and full hybrid are about the same in Europe!
Oh, and check out, "Toyota Expects Prius Sales in Europe to Surge 83%" article.
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000101&sid=aXV.6EA- - yj.vk&refer=japan
Dennis
I think that sums up the whole emissions bureaucracy plain and simple. I know the bosses at CARB run CA like their own empire. Someone needs to bring these environmentalists back to reality. The only people that pay are the little guys like you and I. The industrialists carry on as usual. If they don't get their way they go to another country and set up shop.
Dennis
Do you think Toyota will be able to get enough batteries for all their planned hybrids? One Toyota article said they are currently building 12,000 Prius per month. This article says 10,000 expanding to 15,000 the first half of 2005. Who do we believe?
PS
I would not even think twice if offered a Honda Accord diesel or a Prius at close to the same price. I trust Honda over Toyota any day of the week. I keep my cars a long time and I don't believe the Prius will hold up for the long haul.
It is in my book. When they keep raising the bar and I have to pay for their foolishness. You did not read all I said. The same people that "protecting our environment" allow large global companies to pollute the air and water. Why because it is easier to go after the little guy. They know they will get the car makers to add all this crap and pass the cost on to you and I. While the shipping and manufacturing companies get away with murder.
"Toyota Expects Prius Sales in Europe to Surge 83%"
___I read it and guess what,
Sales of the Prius have lagged in Europe, where diesel-powered cars are more popular.
http://en.ce.cn/World/Asia-Pacific/200409/24/t20040924_1835441.sh- tml
___83%? My goodness, they will make it all the way up to what, 20,000 Prius II sales? on a continent larger then the US!
___The Prius II came out approximately the same time as the Accord iCDTi IIRC. If I ever find the total sales figures for the year, I will definitely let you know who finished on top but the European automotive press loved the iCDTi. I bet it is going to outsell the Prius II 10:1 quite easily actually. It is that the Honda iCDTi is faster, better handling, safer, and will definitely have a lower TCO.
http://www.honda.co.uk/diesel/quotes.html
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Prius is the first implementation/adaptation of HSD. There is a great potential in this drivetrain that can revolutionalize the car industry. That means more car for the money. Many industry experts agree with me also.
Year----Country-----Award
1997-98 Japan ‘Car design award’
1997-98 Japan ‘Car of the Year’
1997-98 Japan ‘New technology of the year’
1998 UK ‘Environmental Commitment’, AA Awards
1998 UK ‘Auto Design Award’, IBCAM-British Carriage and Automobile Manufacturers
1999 Austria 1st rank ‘Environment Award’, ARBOE (Austrian touring club)
1999 Austria ‘Environmental Award’, Freie Fahrt (Austria)
1999 UK ‘Esso Energy Award’, Royal Society
1999 World ‘Global 500 Award for Environmental Commitment’, United Nations
1999 Europe ‘Best Eco Engine’, International Engine of the Year
1999 Europe ‘Best engine 1.4L-1.8L category’, International Engine of the Year
1999 UK ‘Special car award’, Fleet News
1999 UK ‘Technical innovation award’, Fleet World Honours
1999-00 Japan ‘Car of the double decade’, by Japan’s COTY committee
2000 Europe ‘Best Eco Engine’, International Engine of the Year
2001 UK ‘2001 Specialist Award’, Top Gear
2001 USA ‘Best Engineered Car of 2001’, Society of Automotive Engineers
2001 USA One of the ’10 Best Engines for 2001’, Ward’s Auto World Magazine
2001 USA ‘Greenest gasoline-powered passenger sedan in the United States’, American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy
2001 USA “Corporate Achievement”,
2001 National Conservation Achievement Awards
2002 Belgium “FuturAuto” prize winner, Belgian Federation of Automotive Journalists
The recent awards listed on John's site:
Motor Trend 2004 Car of the Year
North American 2004 Car of the Year
2004 Design of the Year
Best Engineered Vehicle for 2004
International Engine of the Year 2004
Best New Engine 2004
Best Fuel Economy Engine 2004
Best Engine 1.4-liter to 1.8-liter 2004
Car & Driver One of the Ten Best in 2004
Fortune Magazine 25 Best Products of the Year
Popular Science Best of What's New award
"Do you think Toyota will be able to get enough batteries for all their planned hybrids?"
Yes. I wouldn't be surprise if Ovonic will be the supplier for Prius production when it started in US since they cross-license with Panasonic. BTW, electric storage device does not have to be battery.
"Who do we believe?"
I would believe the report that coming directly from Toyota.
Dennis
Diesel is generally selling better than gasoline cars in Europe. Hybrids came into market way after Diesel became popular. The fact that Prius sale is expected to surge by 83% shows the gain of hybrid popularity, possibly taking away market share from Diesel.
If you have not been keeping up with latest Diesels, here is what Toyota going to offer soon. The new engine produces more torque(295lbs-ft vs. 250lbs-ft and horsepower(180hp vs. 140hp) than iCDT-i engine.
Toyota D- 4D 180 Clean Power
• Equipped with the innovative Toyota D-4D clean power concept engine
• Establishing the concept of “Clean Power”: high performance with the lowest emissions
• Class-leading power and torque: 180 DIN hp (132 kW) and 400 Nm
• NOX and PM emissions are respectively about 50% and about 80% below EURO IV, thanks to Toyota D-CAT
https://www.toyota.co.jp/en/event/auto_shows/2004/paris/
Dennis
Diesel is generally selling better than gasoline cars in Europe. Hybrids came into market way after Diesel became popular. The fact that Prius sale is expected to surge by 83% shows the gain of hybrid popularity, possibly taking away market share from Diesel.
___The Honda designed iCDTi became available for the first time late last year. Secondly, 83% increase is a projection from a lowly 7 - 8,000 units. This means zip over the entire continent of Europe. What do you say, 15,000 Prius II’s will sell. At best? I bet Toyota loses more market share of gassers then anyone will lose of Diesels.
If you have not been keeping up with latest Diesels, here is what Toyota going to offer soon. The new engine produces more torque(295lbs-ft vs. 250lbs-ft and horsepower(180hp vs. 140hp) than iCDT-i engine.
___So a European can purchase the latest powerful D-CAT today? Sorry, they cannot. Every manufacturer has higher performance and cleaner diesels in their design shops including Honda, VW, Ford, GM, and whoever else wants to compete in Europe. When they are released, then you can tell me what is and isn’t available. Until that time, the iCDTi is not only a far better performer, it is larger, safer, better handling, and costs ~ the same price as the Prius II. The 1.7 L iCDTi is in development and Honda is shooting for Euro V for it. Then you will see it arrive on our shores w/ ULSD being standardized here. These iCDTi’s will meet SULEV specs for CO and PM, ULEV spec’s for HC, and TLEV spec’s for NOx let alone cost thousands less then their Hybrid counterparts.
___For everyone This is kind of a neat commercial for the Honda iCDTi’s ;-)
http://www.honda.co.uk/
___Click on “Watch the film”.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
It's too bad that this--your main argument--is pure conjecture on your part.
Technical explanation:
Exhaust port injection
The effective operation of the DPNR catalyst relies on the engine management system varying the air-fuel ratio in the exhaust gases. To do this, a fifth injection nozzle has been added and placed in the exhaust port. At the critical moment, fuel is injected into the exhaust manifold in order to create stoichiometric conditions in the DPNR catalyst. This 'rich spike' allows the DPNR catalyst to reduce and release the stored NOx.
http://www.autoshow.ro/autoshow/articles/?article_id=1370
"It sounds complicated, but put simply, it is an advanced catalyst, reducing emissions. The engine manage- ment works to save fuel when the car's cruising, helping to achieve fuel returns of 46.3mpg. That's good - but the D-4D manages 48.7mpg."
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/articles/ae_ae_previews/toyota_avens- is.html
Dennis
P.S: How many times are you going to protest me so I can feed you information to appease you? Things that I say are meaningful and I can back them up. I don't just geredes out loud.
Dennis
___Have you ever heard how lean burn in the IMA and non-IMA equipped ICE’s work? Not that Honda has been using this since the early 90’s but a slightly rich mixture is passed through to clear the NOx Cat
http://www.insightcentral.net/encyclopedia/encatalytic.html
During lean burn operation, the exhaust gas contains a larger percentage of oxygen (O2) and NOx, the NOx being primarily nitrogen monoxide (NO). The platinum catalyzes the O2 and NO to produce nitrogen dioxide (NO2), which is able to be stored on the Ti-Na surface.
When it determines that the Ti-Na surface is saturated, the Insight temporarily richens the mixture. This action decreases the NOx and O2 in the exhaust, and raises the levels of hydrocarbons (HC) and carbon monoxide (CO). The platinum is then able to use the HC and CO to catalyze the NO2 (that has been stored) into harmless nitrogen gas (N2), carbon dioxide (CO2) and water vapor (H20).
P.S: How many times are you going to protest me so I can feed you information to appease you? Things that I say are meaningful and I can back them up.
___You mean how “HSD is superior to IMA” yet doesn’t achieve the range of an IMA equipped automobile vs. your continually posted 967 miles at 32 mph HSD achievement. HSD equipped automobile w/ the fuel economy of just 85 mpg? Superior performance of HSD at > 11 seconds to 60? The Accord V6 is not a 7.5 second to 60 automobile? An Accord will never achieve 900 + miles on a single tank of fuel. The RXh and Highlander are sub 8 second vehicles and it will eat the V6 Accord or Accord Hybrid up no matter that they weigh ~ 25% more and the SUV platform is guaranteed to handle worse? The Honda designed iCDTi will be bested by Toyota’s “in the test center” diesel that is superior yet what is available today in the Euro Honda Accord offers superior performance, larger size, higher safety, and slightly less fuel economy for a similar price as that of the Toyota Hybrid in particular? At least those purchasing the Honda designed iCDTi today are picking up a great performing diesel instead of an also ran like the comparison you posted earlier with the Diesel Avensis, Diesel Corolla hatch, and the Prius II.
___Keep them coming given you don’t own a hybrid, probably have never driven a hybrid, haven’t ever driven anything with or for high fuel economy, and no very little about a Hybrid’s characteristics in the real world.
___Back this up the next time you want to play a little “HSD is superior” or Toyota diesel tech is superior because you thought incorrectly that it was so.
and this:
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=234399
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I didn't say they weren't closer in size, I said they were in a different league and not worthy of comparing prices. Sort of like comparing the Camry to the Avalon and saying the only difference is price. Different class of vehicle. And a 5mpg difference (diesel vs gas) and 2 second 0-60 difference hardly puts them in a different performance/economy league. Even with the 5mpg difference, the diesel is cheaper to operate because of the price difference in the fuels.
Perhaps if the Prius were a manual tranny it would sell better. Less than 20% of car sales in europe are automatics. Granted that is very slowly changing, but the vast majority are not willing to give up their manuals. If the diesels were offered with the same type of CVT as the Prius (regardless whether you want to call it a transmission or not!) they most likely would not be lower performing.
US refiners remain on target to supply ultralow-sulfur highway diesel fuel during the next 5 years, the US Environmental Protection Agency reported.
When fully implemented, EPA's Clean Diesel Program will reduce 2.6 million tons/year of nitrogen oxides (NOx) emissions from diesel exhaust—the equivalent of eliminating air pollution from 13 million trucks, the agency said. The reductions in NOx, an ozone precursor, largely will come from catalytic converters required for the first time in new diesel-fueled vehicles. Reduction of the sulfur in fuel is necessary to protect catalysts in the new equipment.
Good.
Technical explanation:"
That's funny dennis. Please, keep the "technical explanations" coming, like how the battery is being charged while the electric motor is providing assist.
All your article shows is that toyota is falling behind on diesels, and doesn't have very good emissions technology. Other manufacturers are increasing both fuel economy and lowering emissions, simultaneously.
Nice try, let's see more "technical explanations."
dave
I totally agree. If you acknowledge this, why did you make statements like "looks like the Prius is a $7,321 premium over the Corolla."? It's called biased against Prius and you know it.
"And a 5mpg difference (diesel vs gas) and 2 second 0-60 difference hardly puts them in a different performance/economy league."
When Avensis diesel is 2.1 secs faster than Corolla diesel in 0-60, it is considered in different league? When Prius is faster and gives better mpg than both, it is not considered in different league? Dude, you sure have double standard!
"Granted that is very slowly changing, but the vast majority are not willing to give up their manuals."
I disagree. I believe, in Europe people mostly drive manual because they can save more fuel and get more performance. If there is a technology that can offer them without compromise, they sure will switch, especially in the city. By eliminating transmission, HSD bypasses fuel and performance loss related with traditional transmissions.
Dennis
http://www.dieselforum.org/inthenews/prnews_090904.html
No, you are funny because Toyota currently has the cleanest diesel solution available in the world. The sad thing is, even with this technology, it might not meet US Federal emission standard which is already in effect today.
"like how the battery is being charged while the electric motor is providing assist."
That statement just show how little knowledge you have about Hybrid Synergy Drive. You must be thinking about Honda's Integrated Motor Assist. HSD has two electric motors/generators. One can generate and the other drive the car! Honda's IMA only has one electric motor which can only either generate or assist.
Remember our discussion about Prius climbing hills and how battery would run out? And you brought up Eisenhower Tunnel? I said 04 Prius could probably go up at 60mph? Guess what? It had been done. Check out the real owner experience.
usbseawolf2000 "Hybrid Gas Mileage: Good? Bad? As Expected?" Sep 11, 2004 2:33pm
"Nice try, let's see more "technical explanations."
Nice! Slap the hand that feeds you. Whenever I bring information to the discussion table, not only you protest and criticize them, you do not provide any constructive comment/info to the discussion. Peace.
Dennis
No, it's because the Aventis is a completely different class of vehicle. The Corolla and Prius are both economy cars, regardless of size. The Aventis is a more refined vehicle with higher trim levels. Same as Camry vs Avalon. Same as Corolla vs Camry. They're not likely to be cross-shopped regardless. Price comparison is not valid.
When Avensis diesel is 2.1 secs faster than Corolla diesel in 0-60, it is considered in different league? When Prius is faster and gives better mpg than both, it is not considered in different league? Dude, you sure have double standard!
See above. You're comparing a cheap economy car, vs expensive economy car, vs moderate car. You're meshing my separate statements anyway. The 2.1 seconds between the PRIUS and the COROLLA does not put them in a different PERFORMANCE league.
I disagree. I believe, in Europe people mostly drive manual because they can save more fuel and get more performance. If there is a technology that can offer them without compromise, they sure will switch, especially in the city.
I agree they'll switch, but it will be a slow process. Most are very skeptical and probably should be considering the reliability issues with the typical automatic and CVT transmissions that are available. Toyota should probably not even use that term considering the differences. Just scares people away that don't know.
No, that's a statement you made before others corrected you. You are learning, albeit slowly.
As for the eisenhower tunner--that wasn't me. Again, nice try.
Good question. It is so simple according those in the know, it should be much cheaper than an automatic to use.
I dare you to find that statement which I supposedly made! Check msg#209. This is what I said, "When you reach to the top of the hill, Prius battery would be full, not empty. Prius has two electric motors/generators. HSD can generate electricity and provide power to electric motor at the same time. HSD will route excess horsepower from the engine and convert it into electricity. This dynamic adjustment in drivetrain provides high torque in conditions like climbing hills when high torque is desire. 50 kilowatts electric motor is capable of producing 295 lbs-ft torque."
usbseawolf2000 Apr 27, 2004 4:09pm
The answer to that discussion is that it takes extremely demanding Eisenhower tunnel to deplete Prius' battery. Prius will have power to recharge it's battery when climbing any hill less demanding than Eisenhower tunnel. Oh, Prius never dipped below 60mph.
I am pretty sure you will deny this statement that you made "The transmission doesn't reduce or multiply *horsepower* in any way, shape, or form." in msg#259. LOL
dhanley Apr 29, 2004 3:51pm
"You are learning, albeit slowly."
I like that response ;-D I tried my best not to enjoy your uncontrollable knee-jerk replies but I must admit I am enjoying them. Don't worry, I think you are a great person.
Dennis
No. Fundamental idea of Planetary CVT is to take two opposite powertrains and switch/balance between the two.
For example, drivetain1 would be best for slow speed and drivetrain2 would be best for high speed. By balancing the usage between the two, you have a combination of drivetrains(powertain) that is perfect for any driving speeds or conditions.
"If so, why don't they put it in all their cars?"
Since it is not possible, Toyota will offer all the car in their lineup with HSD drivetrain by the year of 2010.
Dennis
Well, in case of HSD, that is true. But the concept used in the PSD isn't novel! Planetary Gearset has found many applications. As a matter of fact, it is to be found in the "Acceleration Device" in the AWD system of the RL. A planetary gear set (in the rear differential) is used to accelerate ("speed up") the outer wheel by up to 5% (compared to inside wheel) during cornering.
Traditional automatic transmission contains multiple Planetary Gearsets within. HSD is the first to use Planetary Gearset integrated in the powertrain. Without it, HSD would need two gas engine to achieve the same functionality. One dedicated to power the wheel and another to generate electricity. Ability to split power from one engine simplified the design so much. HSD is the fruit of fresh reinvention that does not build upon traditional existing technology(idea).
Dennis
Yes, this is the statement you made i was talking about. It shows a lack of understanding of conservation of energy, as we all "HSD."
"The transmission doesn't reduce or multiply *horsepower* in any way, shape, or form."
Yes. i said that. It shows understanding of conservation of energy. Both of your statements mean that we could get infinite power. For example:
1) Get an electric generator that makes 10 horsepower
2) Use gears that "step it up" to 100 hp.
3) Use that to turn another generator
4) Use the power to drive the first generator.
A lot of of your posts are wastes because of lack of understanding of issues like this.
dave
Actually PSD functions both ways. It splits ICE power into generating electricity(planet carrier) and to the wheels(ring gear). PSD also combine power from two input into a single output. It all depends on what MG1 is behaving as, either motor or generator.
Dennis
It is true that transmission doesn’t divide/multiply horsepower, but it does affect how much of it is delivered at the wheels. That’s the point of a transmission anyway.
Get a grip of Power Split Device concept and you'll know what I am talking about. Horsepower from the gas engine is split into two ways. One way to the wheels and another to generate electricity. That electricity is combined with the battery to power the other huge 50kW electric motor! What is so hard to understand that?
Maybe this will help.
http://www.toyota-europe.com/media/global/download/prius_tech_2.z- ip
Dennis
I wouldn't call it argument. ;-D It's a discussion. I am also taking conceptually. What MG1 does changes the situaion to either power being split or combine! That's the point I am making.
Dennis
You listening Dave? Everytime you change a gear, the engine horsepower is being added on to the power created by the previous gear. Therefore, multiplying horsepower. Let me remind you that we were on the topic of driving uphill so, don't give me your explanation focusing on the engine. You have to look at the power output at the wheel.
Dennis
http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/2005/prius/key_features/hybrid_syn- _drive.html
Dennis
The issue may be in the semantics, much like an understanding of an argument (point of view) being a part of discussion, or not. ;-)
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http://www.car-videos.com/articles/horsepower_torque.asp
(chart at the bottom)
dave
Dude, that says that the battery is used in this situation, contradicting the claim that the battery will charge while climbing the hill.
dave
That shows peak horsepower at a given gear. When a car reaches the 5th gear, the engine would of output more than 127hp total(starting from 1st gear) because each gear peaks at 127hp total of five times.
Dennis
So, that takes care of this part of my statement. "HSD can generate electricity and provide power to electric motor at the same time." Notice how power from the Generator combines with the battery to power the Electric Motor. EOD.
"contradicting the claim that the battery will charge while climbing the hill."
Now click on "Highway Cruising" and see how the battery is being recharged once-in-a-while. Cruising takes about 15hp from ICE to overcome wind/tire resistance. Now imagine a situation where there is a 50hp resistance. BTW, it would be a hill climbing. HSD can ask ICE to output 60hp instead, while directing the extra 10hp to recharge the battery(if needed).
Prius occasionally end up with more battery power on top of the hill for a reason. Hill climbing situation triggers the ICE to output more power. ICE is most efficient when it is at full load. Therefore, it is beneficial for HSD to recharge the battery to use it at later "needy" time. There aren't any hill long enough or demanding enough that can stress out the Prius(except Eisenhower Tunnel) in the U.S.
The computer in HSD is well programmed to make it smart enough to take advantage of such situations. This is why Prius gets higher MPG when set on cruise control. Not all cruise controls are created equal since HSD has complete control over the dual powertrain while others only have control over the amount of fuel being injected.
Dennis
WHAT?
Dennis
"more than 127hp total"
...a little by the word.
Dennis
The computer in HSD is well programmed to make it smart enough to take advantage of such situations. This is why Prius gets higher MPG when set on cruise control. Not all cruise controls are created equal since HSD has complete control over the dual powertrain while others only have control over the amount of fuel being injected.
___Your lack of knowledge and experience in regards to some Prius topics makes me wonder why you post here? Where did you come up with the garbage posted above anyway? Dan’s 32 mph drive again? Anyone that knows how to drive for high fuel economy and has spent more then 10 minutes behind the windscreen of a Prius II will figure out that what you posted is mostly non-sense.
___Might I suggest you spend some time some time with a Graham scanner connected to a Prius I to figure out the best way to achieve higher fuel economy in a Toyota Hybrid. Maybe a game gauged MDX or Accord would help as well. An Insight would teach you more in 5 minutes then you could learn in a lifetime of reading Afterward, transfer said knowledge to the Prius II. This would be after you have more then .005 hours behind the wheel of one (if you have at all) because at this point, you don’t have a clue about how to achieve high fuel economy let alone speak intelligently about doing so.
___Just to give you a gift of knowledge because you apparently need it. An IMA based Hybrid can have a higher SoC at the top of a mountain then at the starting point of said mountain as well. This has been done with an IMA equipped Hybrid designed over 6 + years ago so what is the big deal about HSD doing the same today?
___Wayne R. Gerdes
Stick to your own experiences and agree to disagree.