Hybrid vs Diesel

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  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I read a review over the Holidays of a 2005 diesel Liberty, and one of the "CONS" was that the smell of diesel exhaust made it into the cabin.

     

    YUCK.....

     

    (I cannot find the review online, it was in a small Texas town newspaper last week)

     

    On a similar note, I drove a long roadtrip this season, and most of the truck stops had diesel anywhere from 12 to 18 cents higher per gallon than regular unleaded....
  • xcelxcel Member Posts: 1,025
    Hi Larsb:

     

    ___And what was the differential 6 months ago? And 1 year and 6 months ago. Less. What will it be in 6 months from now? More then likely less as Diesel #2 cycles with heating oil demand like clock work.

     

    ___As for Diesel exhaust in the cabin, you can write that diesel off. Any automobile with exhaust back into the cabin is a problem and shouldn’t be in anyone’s driveway.

     

    ___Good Luck

     

    ___Wayne R. Gerdes
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    but if I were to be deciding between a Hybrid and a diesel I might care a little to make a longterm guess as to how much fuel costs would be over time.

     

    I take my long trips in December and in June, and those are "travel times" when most gas prices spike so they can rob us since they know so many of us are taking long trips.....GGGRRRRRRR !!!

     

    I paid 1.57, 1.65, 1.65, and 1.52 per gallon for the four fillups I made on my vacation which ended yesterday.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/12/comparing_accor.html

     

    If this article was already posted---forgive me!

     

    Good comparison between the hybrid and diesel accord.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    How did they get fuel economy rated (according to EPA standards) for Accord Diesel? I would assume they simply translated the numbers from a different standard.

     

    If it were to be accurate, a conclusion to be drawn here would be that Honda's 140 HP diesel in Accord is way more impressive than VW's 134 HP diesel used in Passat. Passat's fuel economy per EPA standards would translate to 33 mpg (similar to Accord Hybrid).
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    "What is the cost of replacing that battery pack? No one, at the moment, seems to have a credible answer."

     

    .

     

    That's because it's not relevant. Asking that question is as silly as asking, "What is the cost to replace my engine?" Both the engine/battery are permanent installations, designed to last 250,000 or more miles.

     

    troy
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Found this in an old 2003 news story:

     

    "Are Light-Diesels Better than Hybrids?

     

    In part it depends on type of driving you do.

     

    For example, hybrids are much better in city driving than other vehicles because they shut off their engines at red lights and allow the electric motors to do the work at times when the engine is least efficient. For the city driver, the hybrid car is the way to go, averaging about 10 mpg better than the TDI diesels around town.

     

    However, diesels are better on the highways. If you do very little city driving, a diesel would actually yield slightly better mileage than the hybrid. But the gas engine of the Prius or Civic would still be cleaner in terms of air pollution.

     

    Another factor is what you need to haul. The TDI Jetta Wagon has about triple the luggage capacity of a Prius.

     

    Bottom line, diesel engines can be a transitional technology as we move toward zero emissions vehicles, and their advantages overcome air pollution drawbacks as low-sulfur fuel and clean burning biodiesel become more available in the US.

     

    Until then, hybrids are the greener machines."

     

    I think that sums it up pretty well. Although this came out before the new 2004 Prius which can also excel at highway driving mpg. And I get 47-53 mpg on the highway in my 2004 HCH.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    VW plants it's Flag in the Diesel Camp HARD:
    (Subtitle: "We Don't Need No Stinkin' Hybrids !!)

     

    http://www.dailybreeze.com/business/articles/1328356.html
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    by a driver in OK

    I've been driving my 2003 Jetta GLS TDI wagon for about 3 months now and it is fantastic. I got the 5 speed and it is so fun to drive. I never would have imagined a diesel would have this kind of power and zip and the mileage with the diesel is unbelieveable! The only problem I seem to be having is trying to not get a speeding ticket. The old notion of diesels being slow & stinky is a thing of the past with the VW TDI. When I started new car shopping I never even thought of a diesel until I drove the TDI & I was hooked. I just couldn't believe I was driving a diesel & really still can hardly believe the 45 to 50 mpg I'm getting. Run don't walk to your nearest VW dealer.... one down side is that the TDI's seem hard to find but they are sure worth the effort.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Acceleration performance of less than 8 seconds from 0-100 km/h is expected with the Astra Diesel Hybrid concept.

     

    With fuel consumption below 4-litres/100 km, the Astra Diesel Hybrid is projected to be 25 percent more fuel-efficient than comparable diesel models.


     

    http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/05detroit/astra_dhc.htm

     

    Hybrid diesel Opel Astra. Bring this to North America as a Saturn.

     

    And here is a hybrid SUV concept from GM. Maybe GM is not dying. http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/05detroit/graphyte.htm
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    And here is a hybrid SUV concept from GM. Maybe GM is not dying.

     

    Lots of people think that Toyota can take over number one. I say it ain't over till the fat lady sings. Toyota is still number 4 in sales behind the Big 3. They have to sell 50 billion dollars worth to catch GM & 22 billion just to catch DCC. That is 2.5 million more cars. I don't think Prius will get them to their goal of world domination.. They made a big profit because they rip people off with high priced cars and cheap labor.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,242
    When will Toyota become #1?

     

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  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Concept diesel not very dirty at all:

     

    "Diesel engines get hybrid mileage at half the extra cost, says Pratt. Diesels can also burn a wide variety of renewable fuels, even cooking oil. In unveiling the bank-vault-like Syn-US, Mr. Ford said it could drive from New York to Los Angeles nine times and back before emitting as much smog-forming chemical as painting a bedroom."

     

    Read entire article here:

     

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0111/p03s01-ussc.html
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Good article larsb:

     

     
    If 2005 is the year of the hybrid, look for 2006 to be the year of the diesel.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    NOTE: SULEV/PZEV = The Prius & Civic Hybrids "clean rating" in California = super-ultra clean!

     

    And certain persons told me that I was "nuts" to think it was possible to make SULEV or PZEV diesel-powered cars for California highways. "Diesel is Dirty!" is what they yelled at me, followed by various privately emailed insults like "idiot" or "troll".

      

    Well, take a look for yourself. I was right. I didn't deserve to be insulted.

     

    http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=739- 5

      

    troy
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Nothing is impossible, but in this case, it is not a matter of choice between hybrid technology or diesel, but a combination of the two that is promising to deliver the capability of another PZEV hybrid.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Yeah true, but "those certain people" I was referring to, don't think ANY diesel should be present... not even in a hybrid.

     

    Also, this design is a lot like the Insight or Civic. It's 100% diesel-fueled, with some minor electric assist.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Diesels will flood in with the mandated ULSD Jan. 1st 2006. The new TDI is clean enough today and will be that much better with ULSD. Toyota, Ford & Honda are being held hostage by the battery manufacturers. That piece of the hybrid puzzle is not going away. Maybe fuel cells or capacitors will take there place. The big question is why, if you can get good mileage out of less complex design. To add to that the VW DSG TDI combo will hit our USA showrooms very shortly and Toyota and Honda will wonder why they did not come up with that transmission. Nothing is ever stagnant. Always change or get run over.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    the USA is just not ready for diesel cars. Not as long as only two companies have them. VW with a bad rep, and Mercedes with an expensive rep.

     

    If Honda or Toyota wanted to bring a diesel sedan to the USA, that would help.

     

    But they won't because that would compete with their Hybrids.

     

    So you diesel fans are in for a long ride to acceptability.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    So you diesel fans are in for a long ride to acceptability.

     

    Nahhh, we can just buy bigger vehicles that blast out 10X the emissions. I've put 1,000 miles on my Tahoe last week instead of my TDI and I can't say that there's much downside to driving a big vehicle. Besides the fuel usage, but heck it's legal! Must be good for the environment! A Tahoe with a big honking diesel would be even better. Look for one in the spring of 2006. Might even be a hybrid diesel, but the info is sketchy at this point.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Yes, definitely an option for anyone, not just diesel fans.....:)
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Just a Tahoe, how about a Jeep with two Hemi engines - snip - DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler division took off-roading to new extremes on Sunday by unveiling an all-new Jeep powered by two big V-8 Hemi engines. http://tinyurl.com/4dmfj
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Nahhh, we can just buy bigger vehicles that blast out 10X the emissions.

     

    People want utility. If they cannot get a small PU with a diesel they buy a big PU truck with a diesel. Blame it on the EPA and CARB. Not the guy that lives within the rules. Ford, Dodge and Chevy are cranking out BIG diesel engines as fast as they can. Just as a note the Diesels in domestic PU trucks are $5k to $7k premium and they sell as fast as they get on the lots. And it is not all fleet. I don't even think Dodge has much fleet sales.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Diesels as work trux....no duh they sell, ranchers have to spend that money to get the trux with the most power and torque to pull their trailers/tractors/mud fight.

     

    Diesel hybrid sedans with a $5K to $7K premium...will not fly off the lots.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Diesel hybrid sedans with a $5K to $7K premium...will not fly off the lots.

     

    I agree completely. I see so many F350 crew cabs with diesel running the streets with one on board. There is no way unless you pull a trailer that you can justify the premium on diesel trucks. But they sell very well. Most of them are not for business.

     

    I think the $1000 premium on the Jetta TDI is a bit high. However the Passat TDI is only $200 premium which makes it a good deal. Again the trick is getting one under MSRP. Up until a few weeks ago that was not an easy thing to do. The TDIs are an easier premium to justify than the hybrid at $3000.
  • smccauleysmccauley Member Posts: 8
    The answer to this entire debate is right under our noses.

     

    http://pscuderi.homedns.org/US20040255882.pdf

     

    Check out the brake thermal efficiency compared to the Otto cycle in table 9. Also, see the NOx emissions in figure 24.

     

    This engine model carries the credibility of Southwest Research Institude - regarded by many as #1 in the world when it comes to engine research.

     

    This technology could also be applied to diesel engines. The crossover passage would just act as an air compressor and the diesel gas would be injected under pressure just before combustion occurs.

     

    The NOx emissions are so much lower it is ridiculous. The BTE is also significantly higher. You could make a diesel engine using this technology that produces less NOx emissions than today's gasoline engines, and it would also be at least as efficient as any of today's diesel engines!

     

    Also, because they're able to utilize an unlimited offset they can line up the point of maximum combusion pressure and the point of maximum torque! This would lead to a huge amount of torque.


     

    Why isn't anyone talking about this technology?! Am I the first person to come across it?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    For some reason I cannot get that PDF file to come up. I'll try later going to the website. Sounds interesting for sure.
  • smccauleysmccauley Member Posts: 8
    It's a large file. Right click->Save As

     

    You could also go to www.pat2pdf.org and type in patent number 20040255882 if you still have problems.
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    gagrice # 2130

    "If 2005 is the year of the hybrid, look for 2006 to be the year of the diesel"

     

    Are you presenting diesels as the answer to rising gasoline prices and a deteriorating ozone layer?

    Many other diesel enthusiasts subscribe to this idea.

     

    If I heard the claim again that "todays" diesels won't spew nasty soot when they age, won't develop problems, can get 100MPG and that all stations will eventually sell diesel, life with a diesel car is bliss then I wouldn't be surprised.

     

    We've all heard this before from diesel enthusiasts. (Well maybe not the 100MPG part)

     

    Year

    after year

    after year

    after year, and yet diesel cars still blow the same smoke when older, like the nature of the beast.

     

    I think gas-electric and diesel cars are both good alternatives compared to a conventional gasoline car, but neither are the answer.

     

    I hope that in 9 years when I'm in the market to replace my HCH that the "next" form of transportation energy will be along, what ever it is.

    If faced with the same choice today...conventional, gas-electric or diesel then hands down gas-electric.

     

    The choice will be clear even then, as I'm stuck in a drive through behind one of "todays" smokey, noisy diesels.

    Sometimes I wonder if those drivers are even aware of what is flowing from their tail pipe...or don't care...and if they wonder why the back of their car is always sooty black...

    I'm certainly not saying ALL diesels end up that way but many of them do.
  • smccauleysmccauley Member Posts: 8
    Simply put, no I am not referring to diesels as the answer to rising gasoline prices and a deteriorating ozone layer. I am referring to an entirely new technological breakthrough that could become a transition technology between gasoline engines and hydrogen cars.

     

    It's a new engine. If used with normal gasoline it would produce less NOx emissions than any car out there today, produce much more torque than a normal gasoline engine, and the efficiency would be up there with diesels - meaning the gas mileage would be similar. It would perform better than a hybrid - without the hybrid.

      

    The inherent problem with diesel engines is that because the compression ratio is so high the firing temperature is very high as well - compared to gasoline engines that is. This engine design gives you the ability to fire after top dead center - inherently reducing the firing temperature and solving the inherent problem with diesel engines that you speak of.

      

    This technology could be used with diesels, gasoline engines, gasoline-electric hybrids, or diesel-electric hybrids. In any of the before mentioned cases it would reduce the NOx emissions by 50-80% as well as improve the efficiency by 11-15% above and beyond any other efficiency increases resulting from using an electric hybrid motor or diesel motor or both.

     

    On top of all these advantages this technology could be easily mass produced using the automotive industry's current infastructure. It's still got pistons, connecting rods, etc.
  • smccauleysmccauley Member Posts: 8
    Sorry, I mistakenly thought you were previously replying to my message when I wrote the above response.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    as I'm stuck in a drive through behind one of "todays" smokey, noisy diesels.

     

    I am not sure where you are when you see all these smoking cars. I cannot remember the last car of any kind here in San Diego that was spewing dirty exhaust. My neighbor has a Jetta TDI that is past 50k miles and I never see any exhaust from his car. You must live in an area with a lot of old MB diesel cars. I followed a 240D MB the other day and was surprised that it was not spewing black. I don't think they have built those for 25 or 30 years. I have never owned a diesel. My wife has owned several MB 300D's over the years and liked them. In fact she switched to the Lexus in 1990 because she could not find a new MB diesel in San Diego. One plus to the diesel that no longer exists is the availability of cheap diesel. They would go down to Mexico and fill up for half the price here in San Diego. Plus diesel did not have the heavy tax it does today.
  • sebring95sebring95 Member Posts: 3,241
    One reason you aren't seeing it is because you've got a lower sulphur content fuel in Cali. I try to only run BP diesel Supreme in my TDI because it's a 30ppm, 50 cetane fuel. Not only does it have low sulphur and higher performance, it's classified as a low aroma fuel. Which means you'll never see smoke and won't smell anything either. The 2006 standard requires 15ppm fuel, so I would think you'll be seeing much less soot. I don't know if the low aroma is something that goes along with the low-sulphur, but I'm betting it is. We still have rather high sulphur gasoline here, and if you don't believe it stand behind my wifes new GX470 while it's running. The scent of rotten eggs will about knock you out. The BP Supreme pumps have less smell than a regular gasoline pump. Of course I filled her up with 91 octane for $1.65/gallon a couple weeks ago, which is probably a bit less than ya'll out there!

     

    I've seen the old MB's spewing a huge cloud of black smoke. It seems the newer common-rail diesels don't spew much even on cheap fuel. My '03 Cummins only smokes a bit on cold-starts, and that's on 200ppm truck-stop crud. The 15,000# trailer that follows it around is clean as can be, which tells me very little soot is coming out the pipe. And if climbing the mountains at 75mph with that trailer behind it doesn't brew-up the smoke, I'm not sure what would. Maybe if I threw on a chip that bumped me to 500hp......
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    One reason you aren't seeing it is because you've got a lower sulphur content fuel in Cali.

     

    I know our gas and diesel is cleaner than many states. My SOCO station has the ECD-1 for a little more than #2 diesel. I use it in my Kubota and it runs nice and clean. BP is somewhat of a leader in the LSD and ULSD market. Any BP or ARCO station that has diesel sells the good stuff. My biggest gripe with gas is that if we had spent the billions trying to make gas clean on diesel research, we would be so far ahead of where we are now. I blame that on CARB, EPA and many environmental groups.

     

    The states still running high sulfur gas are no better off with gas cars than modern diesel. And diesel gives them added mileage and less GHG.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Good article. I knew he and his wife had cars running B100 on Maui. Sounds like a new career for him. Go Willie!!

     

    PS

    Don't try running biodiesel in your HCH :-)
  • z28_sedanz28_sedan Member Posts: 18
    The answer is: Diesels rule!

     

    Actually, I like hybrids too. I like any technology that contributes to the goal of giving less $$$ to the middle east terrorists. If hybrids had been a little cheaper, I'd have definitely considered them.

     

    As it is, I got a loaded 2002 TDI Jetta GLS for $11,063 out the door. I'm planning on running at least B20 at first and moving up to B100 gradually.

     

    I have a feeling that most people in the U.S. are like I was. I knew diesels were more fuel efficient, but I assumed it was 20-30% (which, in my mind, would not have been worth the added cost, maintenance, inconvenience of looking for a gas station with diesel, etc. ...of course I also didn't know about biodiesel then...that alone sells it for me).

     

    In actuality, in the case of the TDI Jetta at least it's (comparing 2002 mileage figures for manual-tran Jetta TDI (42/49) vs manual-tran, gas-engine Jettas 2.0L (24/31) and turbo 1.8L (24/31)) it's 42/24 = 1.75 or 75% better. For highway, it's 49/31 = 1.58 or 58% better.

     

    I was quite stunned when I realized that and immediately started looking for one to buy. Volkswagen, would do well to advertise their TDIs more and to include a similar calculation to the above.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    I think Larsb was being sarcastic (because he's anti-diesel). And you fell right into his bait.

     

    .

     

    Anyway, it amazes me that someone can look at a technology that is ~10% more energy efficient (~45% gasoline vs. ~55% diesel), and say "NO WAY" to it. I thought environmentalists were supposed to seek out more energy efficiency (like replacing incandescent bulbs with fluorescent bulbs)??? Why would they say no to a ~10% more efficient engine?

     

    It's incomprehensible.

     

    troy
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I got a loaded 2002 TDI Jetta GLS for $11,063 out the door

     

    How does it handle and is it good for passing on two lane roads?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Why would they say no to a ~10% more efficient engine?

     

    You are giving the gas crowd the benefit of the doubt. If you take the same car, the Jetta and have a gas engine and a Diesel engine. The diesel gets 40% better mileage than the gas. And the gas engine has less torque for passing.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Pollution and GHG score average from EPA:

     

    HCH = 8.5

    Jetta TDI = 6

     

    Unleaded fuel versus diesel prices:

     

    "The national average price of diesel in 2004 was $1.81 per gallon, 20 percent higher than in 2003."

     

    EPA ratings:

     

    HCH manual tranny: 46/51

    VW Jetta TDI: 32/43

     

    So I THINK the "10% efficiency" gets lost by averaging 11 miles per gallon less than the HCH.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    >>>>>The diesel gets 40% better mileage than the gas.

     

    .

    40% higher MPG does NOT mean 40% more energy efficient, because diesel carries more energy per gallon. +10% is the generally-accepted energy advantage between identical gasoline & diesel engines.

     

    troy
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    Diesel fuel contains more energy than gasoline. Diesel engines are typically 25% to 35% more efficient than gasoline combustion engines, not 10%.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    Yeah well Lars...

     

    A Civic Hybrid with a diesel engine (like volkswagen's 60hp 4-cylinder), would get 70 miles per gallon on the highway.

     

    And yet, you would say "no way!" to that 65/70 city/highway car. It makes no sense to turn your back on higher energy efficiency.

     

    troy
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    If 25-35% "more efficiency" does not convert to MPG on the road, what good is it?

     

    This is why a "diesel hybrid sedan" is the best compromise, until Fuel Cell vehicles come along.

     

    But there are none of these. So right now, gas hybrid is the most effective choice for MPG.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I would "Look" at a diesel hybrid car in the future, IF it can be PROVEN that the "clean diesel" and the particulate filters are as capable as the Hype.

     

    I have two young kids, and I'm NOT going to put dirty diesel exhaust in their lungs.

     

    If someone can show me a TRULY CLEAN diesel hybrid that gets 60-70 MPG in the "less than $25K" price range, I might look. But so far, there is no such car.
  • electrictroyelectrictroy Member Posts: 564
    "If 25-35% "more efficiency" does not convert to MPG on the road, what good is it?"

     

    .

    What??? It DOES convert to MPG. The gasoline Jetta only gets 28mpg. The diesel gets 43. That's +15mpg!

     

    A Civic Hybrid with a diesel engine (like volkswagen's 60hp 4-cylinder), would get 70 miles per gallon on the highway... that's +20mpg over the gasoline version.

     

    troy
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Quote E-Troy-"What??? It DOES convert to MPG. The gasoline Jetta only gets 28mpg. The diesel gets 43. That's +15mpg!-end quote

     

    If you refer to my previous post, I was comparing the Jetta TDI to the HCH, not a gas Jetta to a diesel Jetta.

     

    Who cares about what a gas Jetta does? This is a forum to compare hybrids versus diesel.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    A Civic Hybrid with a diesel engine (like volkswagen's 60hp 4-cylinder), would get 70 miles per gallon on the highway... that's +20mpg over the gasoline version.

     

    Did you mean Civic Hybrid with diesel/electric set up, or a Civic diesel? If latter, UK gets both (Civic Hybrid and Civic Diesel), the hybrid edges out the diesel in fuel economy and GHG emissions (UK does not care for pollutants, just GHG, so I have no pollution ratings).

     

    If true there, why would it be any different here?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I hope he meant a diesel hybrid, so his post is sensical.....:)
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