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I don't think it is a conspiracy as much as a fear of lost revenue. CA is a prime example. You have a State legislature that are big spenders. A few of the more stable members started looking at this tax base being eroded when the ZEV mandate was out there. The hybrids are a small percentage, yet very visible to the public. I am not sure how many of the 235 million cars in America are in CA. If 500,000 diesels or hybrids cost the Governments $75,000,000 per year in revenue, there is grounds for concern. I think Oregon is way ahead of the curve on this. I think your figures are conservative on average mileage. It seems Californians are above the 15k national average. I also believe people with high mileage cars, average more miles per year.
It is a dilemma for those that want to conserve and those that are counting on the tax money.
I own an TCH as you know, Gary, and I don't think it's a "low profile" car at all.
Maybe at 5'9" I'm too short to have to worry about ducking to see a red light, but I'm not sure anyone has classified the TCH as "low profile" in any of the reviews or owner's comments I have seen, and that's a considerable number.
...and may the gap in price grow.
In OK City, diesel is still 11 cents more per gallon. Charleston, 5 cents more per gallon. Lotsa places have diesel still higher.
So even with the nationwide average less, diesel is not the bargain EVERYWHERE.
Every place which does not have ULSD still is selling dirty diesel.
Only the CARB states have mandated ultra low sulfur gasoline. That is the reason that Toyota hybrids are rated an "8" in 45 of the 50 states. It takes ultra low sulfur gas for the Toyota hybrid to get PZEV rated. Does that mean we should not buy a hybrid Toyota in any state that is not using CARB gas? How is it that VW is able to get a "9" out of that dirty 45 state gas when Toyota Hybrids only get an "8"?
Kind of mixed up, eh? There is no level called "ultra" for gasoline.
The nationwide low-sulfur mandate for gasoline started January 1, 2006.
JOHN
How is that possible? Is that Jetta 2.5 really cleaner than my Prius?
Look at the fueleconomy.gov site and clock on the air pollution score and you can see the chemical breakdown.
It produces FAR MORE greenhouse gasses than the Prius.
OVERALL the Prius is cleaner, even with an 8.
Don't call me a liar before you know the facts. I just went to the page.
Air Pollution Score
Emission Limits at Full Useful Life (100,000-120,000 miles)
Maximum Allowed Grams per Mile
Air Pollution Score of 8, emits up to:
NOx 0.03 grams per mile
NMOG 0.055 grams per mile
HCHO 0.011 grams per mile
Air Pollution Score of 9, emits up to:
NOx 0.02 grams per mile
NMOG 0.010 grams per mile
HCHO 0.004 grams per mile
GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS:
Prius 3.4 tons per year
Jetta 7.4 tons per year
So at 15,000 miles per year, a Prius at 8 will produce far less pollution than a Jetta at 9 if the TOTAL POLLUTION is factored in.
So OVERALL, LIKE I SAID, the Prius is cleaner.
(I don't even LIKE Kool-Aid.....)
http://www.greencar.com/index.cfm?content=features1
In an era when the jargon of "bigger, better, faster" seems to dominate automotive advertising and sales talk in new-car showrooms, there's a shocking trend afoot. Environmentalism may have sneaked into the equation without so much as announcing its presence.
The Honda Accord EX driven off the lot in California has emissions so low they can barely be measured. A Toyota Prius gasoline-electric hybrid bought in New York brings with it extremely low emissions and an estimated combined 55 mpg fuel economy. And a 2004 Ford Focus sold in Massachusetts offers more power than its predecessor while delivering a few more miles to the gallon and nearly imperceptible emissions.
What are these amazing cars? "PZEVs," or Partial Zero Emission Vehicles. They run on everyday gasoline but give up few emissions along the way. PZEVs have come to us courtesy of California's Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) mandate, an integral part of the state's low emission vehicle program crafted back in 1990. While the ZEV mandate has gone through some fairly extensive shape-shifting over the years, it is still with us in a form that's bringing cleaner cars to California's highways and, by extension, yours as well.
"The engine was not the problem" I agree the engine itself is good. But you need to replace the timing belt religiously every 80k or 100K miles. If you dont,the belt will snap unexpectly no hint of it snapping. Turbo vanes are prone to get jammed up and intake clogging is a common problem. If you drive it aggressively, you are less prone to get jamming turbo vanes and intake clogging. Another problem VW dealershiop are not knoledgeable with their tdi product and use the wrong oil. BTW it will void your warrenty by using the wrong oil. The tdi oil is difficult hard to get at your local automative store.
" Throwaway cars are not beneficial to our environment."
There are plenty of people unloading their tdi because of sluggish perforamace due to clogged intakes and stuck turbo vanes.
I would not per se disagree. However to NOT understand the unique aspects of both the hybrid and/or (in the case of your quote) diesel is to manage for dissatisfaction. We can also thank the regulatory process in keeping #2 diesel fuel artificially high in sulfur which is the primary reason for this EGR/intake clogging. It is akin to Prius or HCH having to run on LEADED regular.
I find it hard to believe that most folks do not know that up until very recently most (GASSER)small cars had timing belts. Indeed most gassers (having timing belts) have for years had less than the 80,000 to 100,000 mile timing belts the VW (Jetta) has had. Insofar as stuck turbo vanes, this is NOT unique to diesel engines with turbo's, ie all gasser engines with turbos, which % and volume wise is much greater than TDI's.
So for example MOST folks do not keep their cars past the 7.5-8.5 year (12-15k per year, or 90-128k miles), so a timing chain can be seen as a competitive advantage. However timing chains are good and bad, but suffice to say if and when it fails, it is just as ugly as a timing belt failure.
In particular, the Honda hybrids which can run SANS HYBRID components. If the owner of the 200K HCH is too poor to buy a second hand battery or unable to find a scrap battery, then that person can run the car as far as the gasser engine will go after that. The hybrid motor is an "engine assist device" and the car will run without that assist, albeit slower and with lesser MPG. But it will not need to be thrown away.
The Toyota HSD system is more integrated. My theory is that when and if Toyota HSD batteries start dying at high mileages and out of warranty, some smart guy/gal will find a way to hack them to allow it to run only on it's gas engine also. Toyota might even offer that hack as a service someday for the 250K Prius owner. We just don't know yet.
We do know there are Priuses over 200K which have not needed battery replacements.
Who says they have to buy it instate. I believe if its over 7,500 they can buy that diesel and legally register it in ca. If youa re paying over msrp for ANY (hybrid, or diesel) car, you are the fool.
Another radical notion, we do NOT need HIGHER CAFE standards. We need cars that in fact can get higher mpg, such as the ubiquitous VW Lupo (in Europe) that get 75 mpg. Or (recognized in the USA) the VW products and HCH and Prius that get real world 45-50 mpg.
Insofar as the regulatory and political landscape, I think the democratically controlled CA legislature is signalling that taxation income from continued use of unleaded regular is a manageable "issue" and preferable to less revenues and less taxation from burning of LESS unleaded regular.
There is no leded gas available to gas stations to run your Prius on. There is only LSD to run your tdi on.(till recently) so you will have the problem with intake clogging and turbo vanes jamming up. In the new M-D cdi the turbo vanes are eletronally controlled unlike the the vw tdi.
"We can also thank the regulatory process in keeping #2 diesel fuel artificially high in sulfur which is the primary reason for this EGR/intake clogging."
You may want to think the OTR trucking lobby for that. Schneider, Werner, JB Hunt, USA truck, CR England and the ATA (amer. trucking association) and OODA (owners operators drivers assoc) lobbied congress strongly against ULSD. Diesel car people have been beggin congress for ULSD.
"Insofar as stuck turbo vanes, this is NOT unique to diesel engines with turbo's"
I had a older 95 Jetta tdi and the turbo never jammed up. I it was the older stype turbo. it was a good car.
This is an analogy reference that goes back to the 1970's.
In addition there is anecdotal evidence that the two of the three tiers of #2 diesel fuel has clogged a lot less for lower sulfur #2 diesel users (for lack of a better description CA state #2 diesel) . So for example in the 49 states the sulfur content for on highway use has been up to 500 ppm. In CA, the off highway (red dye) #2 diesel is commonly 500 ppm and the on highway has been 140 ppm with specialty availablity of USLD (15 ppm and bio diesel). With USLD in theory,(and given a certain adjustment period) the new standard will be 15 ppm for the majority of diesel fuel marketed.
That may indeed be true, but however the regulatory process COULD HAVE and SHOULD have regulated #2 diesel on a parrallel course as with regular fuel. The essential "deal with the devil" so to speak SEEMS to be almost unregulated #2 diesel for industry and commerce and the rest of the peasants on unleaded regular. For my two cents at least TWO serious mistakes. For example. The commerce and industry has been enjoying a 37% advantage (since before the regulatory divergence. So just think if we had been able to have a 37% fuel advantage for say a generation or 28 years. So say in my life time, I have gone 1,000,000 miles at 20 mpg or 50,000 gals. If I did those same figures at 37% LESS fuel consumption or 28 mpg or 35,714 gals: savings of 14,286 gals!!!??? Is that better or worse? Is that less or more?
OK, too much water under the bridge? On a 2003 VW Jetta would you rather get 31 mpg or 49???
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Spin free, USLD was not used. What does that mean? Higher sulfur fuel diesel being compared against lower sulfur fuel unleaded regular.
Spin free, 2003 Prius in most states is no better than the sister product (which is very good by the way) 2003 Toyota Corolla, which is no better than the 2003 Civic. The difference between tier one and ulev is app .03 gram per mile vs .01= .02 grams per mile. (click on definition of ulev for the graph) So in addition, while an suv might use more fuel; gram per mile (how HC is actually measured is THE SAME. This mean that given the standards if an suv meets this (particular) standard ULEV) HC emissions is the same.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm
Ultimately the whole time the hybrids have been on the market, they have statistically had no verifiable decrease in overall real world emissions.
I think you are mistaken. GHG is the only emission the Prius is better than the VW 2.5 L engine. CO2 is not considered a pollutant. In fact trees love it & would die without it. Every time you exhale you emit CO2. Unless you ate onions and garlic it would not be considered pollution. I think we debated this once before. The Prius is not as clean as several other vehicles when driven in the 45 states with lower standards on their gas. For example the HCH is also rated a "9" in the Non-CARB states.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm
Actually, they HAVE had a statistically verifiable decrease in real world emissions.
It's called "going farther on a gallon of gas"
Other than the small, dirty, sulfur burning diesels, back in 1999 through 2002, there were no reasonably equipped passenger cars in the USA which could achieve 50+ MPG except for the Insight and the Prius.
Read this statement out loud to yourself:
Every MPG gained by a hybrid over a comparable gas-only vehicle is "gas not burned" and thus is a reduction in real world emissions.
So of course their is a reduction in pollution - who can't see the logic? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?
PS. Gary - tell the Glaciers that CO2 is not pollution.........oh, wait, you can't because they are all too busy melting away !!
You should choose your words more carefully.
I'm not ignoring it, just waiting for it to MATTER.
Give me a CLEAN, TRULY CLEAN diesel hybrid 5 passenger car, not made by VW or MB, in the $35K price range, and which gets 70 MPG EPA and I will buy it immediately.
Until the diesels are LEGAL in all 50 states and using ULSD and advanced PM filters, they are still not a better answer for reducing global warming and lowering fuel consumption than today's hybrids.
The VW TDIs are all better than every hybrid other than the HCH and Prius for CO2, if it matters. Last winter was the coldest on record in the Arctic. Do I believe the news media concerning Global Warming, NO!!!! They only repeat what Hollywood stars tell them to say. Hollywood stars grab on to these causes to make it look like they are concerned when they jump in their jets and dump more pollution than all the cars in Topeka in one flight. CO2 is a factor. If we are concerned we would be using more diesel pure and simple. That CUTS CO2 more than the hybrids supposedly do. The ratings are based on MPG. None of the hybrids so far have met the EPA ratings. SO they are putting out more CO2 than expected. Surprize, surprize!!!
Prius has 500% more NMOG than VW 2.5L engine
Prius has 300% more HCHO than VW 2.5L engine
The only thing Prius can claim, is less GHG "IF" it gets combined 55 MPG. which the average Prius driver does not get. It looks to me like Toyota is playing up to the Pretty folks in Hollywood and the rest of the country follow like sheep. The Prius is still spewing Deadly carcinogenic poison into our air.
NOx Oxides of Nitrogen Compounds containing nitrogen and oxygen; they combine with hydrocarbons in the
sunlight to form smog
NMOG Non-Methane Organic Compounds Compounds containing carbon; they combine with NOx in the sunlight to form smog
NMHC Non-Methane Hydrocarbons A subset of NMOGs, containing only carbon and hydrogen; they combine with NOx
to form smog
THC Total Hydrocarbons All hydrocarbons, including methane; they combine with NOx to form smog
PM Particulate Matter Tiny particles of solid matter that lodge in the lungs and deposit on buildings
HCHO Formaldehyde A lung irritant and carcinogen
CO Carbon Monoxide A colorless, odorless, poisonous gas
That is of course...If you care about that.
Interesting article Have You Hugged a Hummer Today?
Neither do I believe the "MEDIA" hype.
But I DO believe the SCIENTISTS and SCIENTIFIC ORGANIZATIONS who are doing REAL SCIENCE and can point to CO2 levels affecting the planet in a very negative way. Denial is no way to address the problems.
Gary says "None of the hybrids so far have met the EPA ratings. "
An neither have 85% of ALL CARS met that idiotic test's ratings. Thus the REVAMP for the 2008 model year.
This means that when gas prices go up, these people don't rush out to buy more hybrids. "They buy a Chevy Aveo," says Spinella. "It delivers the same fuel economy as a Prius, but at half the price."
Oh, really? Has an Aveo achieved 109 MPG? Has an Aveo been driven for 16,000 miles and averaged 62.3 MPG like a Prius? Or for 22,000 miles and averaged 58 MPG? And which Aveo is that which achieves the same MPG as a Prius? On fueleconomy.gov, the Aveo is rated at 28 MPG which is NOT QUITE what even the WORST Priuses are getting. HMMMMM.
Ok, maybe the writer has a point on this next issue:
What's particularly interesting is that individual consumers are defying all expectations and turning their backs on hybrids at a time when gas prices are soaring.
HHMMMMM. How about this fact:
US Sales of Hybrids Stay Strong in June 2006, Up 20% from 2005
Hybrids in the US had their second-strongest sales month of the year and third-strongest month ever, posting a total of 23,048 units, an increase of 20% from June 2005. May 2006 remains the peak month, with 23,554 units sold.
Hmmm - contrary to the writer's OPINION, hybrids sales are indeed still going strong. And my guess is that July 2006 will be a strong month, what with the new Camry selling like hotcakes.
OK, two points refuted. Let's keep it going:
As for Hummers, Spinella explains, the life of these cars averaged across various models is over 300,000 miles. By contrast, Prius' life – according to Toyota's own numbers – is 100,000 miles.
OK, so now we have the HEART of why the Hummers are showing up as "less energy used" from dust to dust. A 300,000 mile vehicle will OF COURSE use less energy than a 100,000 mile vehicle.
So, they are comparing APPLES to ORANGES and coming up with a completely BOGUS conclusion.
My assertion is that we KNOW there are Gen 1 Priuses with more than 200,000 miles on the battery and the car. Has anyone ever heard of a Hummer with that many miles, and still has original engine parts? My Chevy Avalanche I used to drive burned out two trannies in 89K miles. I'd bet my retirement income that there are more Priuses than Hummers with 200,000 miles on them and original parts.
HHMMM - ZERO for THREE so far !!!
Essentially given your post you have not made the jump from "hotcakes sales" to answering the question how long will it take for the hybrid to be (WHATEVER) percentage of the vehicle fleet.
So lets use (for example) that emotional topic SUV's which NHSTA acknowledges to be app 12% of the registered passenger vehicle fleet (235.4M) . It took app a generation (30-33 years) to reach 12% of the passenger vehicle fleet or app .00333% per year from 1/2% of the population. This is/was seen by the anti suv folks as almost unchecked malthusian growth(like exponential bacterial viral growth.
1. union lifetime health benefits insurance
2. LARGE % profits
3. actual products the market would buy!!
4. gram per mile was similar to passenger cars.
You can issue your own denials or ignore what you wish but at the current production and SALES rate, you quote, 12% of the current vehicle population is on track for 2108 (102 years) and I might probably be accused of being overly optimistic.
that was typed on 10/28/05 @6:11pm
Gas is at 3.00 a gallon and the new line of SUV's are not selling SUV to expecation. Toyota has not "cheapen the hybrids by 50%.
Toyota engineers have a mandate from management to do two things:
1. Reduce the hybrid component size by 75%
2. Reduce the hybrid costs by 50%
They will either succeed or fail, but at least they are WORKING on it.
Yes. And so does the Prius, and many many other cars.
So as most folks might or might not know the San Francisco Bay Area, years ago obviously was a huge wetland. This of course was/and still is (only less per square foot) ideal and wonderful breeding grounds for literally #'s per square foot of the common (house) fly and of course, mosquitoes. Now this is wonderful if you consider larvae a great protein source.
Not if they use natural gas, which is lower and expects to be lower all winter.
If GM could get Tahoes and Burbans up to 30/53 mpg. The other segments such as hybrids and economy cars will also see a similar %age bump on their mpg. If Tahones and burbans get 30/35 and the Aveo gets 50 and the Yaris gets 60 mpg people will be getting the Yaris and Aveo. In that future, gas may be 7 dollars a gallon.
We're focusing on the merits of hybrids and diesels (please note that this is not hybrids vs diesels) in this discussion - thanks for helping us stay on topic!
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