Acura TL vs Lexus IS 350

jbdriver

I am one of those buyers that can probably only afford the mid $30s which would probably only give me the option of a 250 or the TL. I have to say that I am thoroughly disappointed in the huge disparity between HP in the two lexus models. I mean the Bimmer 325 and 330 only have about 40 hp difference (I only mention this because I think that Lexus is trying to go after the 330 market share with the IS 350).
Anyway, there is just a gigantic gap in HP performance that Lexus is abandoning here that the Acura fills all too well. I realize there is all that AWD vs FWD vs RWD stuff to think about, but there is a lot to be said for a car (TL) that has 66 more HP and 53 more ft-lbs of torque than the IS 250 at what I'm guessing will be about the same price. It suprises me even further that I think that Lexus expects the majority of their sales to be in the 250....maybe it's a price point thing. :confuse: I think that if they put in another model that fit in between those two in performance, then they would have me and maybe convince me to spend the extra few grand, but the 250 is underequipped and the 350 is probably going to be out of my price range when it's all said and done...and please don't give me this non-sense about stipping out all the options to get the price down..I buy a luxury car to have just that...luxury. I guess I should wait for the official Lexus pricing before I get get too carried away...too late :P
Any thoughts...

frisconick

You make some excellent points, there is no doubt that the 350 will be much more expensive. This is what makes the TL so attractive, that is, good hp, lots of goodies that are standard, and enough lux for 90% of people out there, all for about 35k, not bad. :P

billyperks

It will be interesting to see how they price the 350-remember the GS 300 is priced in the lower to mid forties range.

This is going to be quiet interesting.

delmar1

I have also read just yesterday that Lexus and Toyota (which is the parent of Lexus) are also raising their prices overall throughout their line-up.

banda

Hello all, I'm from Canada and been reading some of the car comparison forums for awhile as I've been looking for something new. It was down to BMW's new 3 series, which I'm kind of soured on. While it drives nice and does come with some great features, the fact it's got a new engine and people seemed to have engine troubles with the last engine give me pause. Well, that, and if I'm spending this kind of money on a car, I expect certain things. Like what you ask? Well, you know have pretty much every car under the sun now puts a garage door opener standard in the rear view mirror? Well, see, my car now doesn't have that, I want that, BMW does offer that . . . but not in the 3.25, no, for this state of the art feature, it is only offered in the 3.30, unless you want to pay the dealer a ton to put it in the 3.25 for you. BUT WAIT, there's more, it IS offered in the 3.30, but ONLY if you get the premium package. To be fair, I'm assuming anyone buying a 3.30 would get that package anyway, it's more the fact they're putting something like a garage door opener lumped in with the top line 2006 series, and yet I could go buy a barely equipped Altima and get it in as standard.

OK, enough about them, so I did like a lot of the other features in there, and Ipod ready is actually pretty exciting, but I also really liked the Infiniti G35. Great car, prefer the look of the coup on that one over the 4 doors, some great features, all in all, nice car. But only if I could get sporty 4 door with features of both cars I liked, along comes the Lexus IS 350. Now, ipod ready, sound system is good, my garage door opening mirror most likely, moving headlights, extra high high beams so if anyone has theirs on coming at me I could almost burn their retinas clear out! So, needless to say, depending on price and how she drives in person, this car is getting me pretty excited. So there I am at the dealership last night where I'm told that the 350, larger engine, only comes in automatic with the paddle shifting. Now I'm not saying the paddle shifting wouldn't be fun, but what I really want is a manual transmission. I like using the clutch and throwing through a gear box. What I'm hoping is since details are still sketchy, the dealership doesn't know what it's talking about. I'm wondering if anyone here has heard anything to day about this? Only version of the IS that is stated to have manual 6 speed is the 204 horsepower RWD 250. So you can't even get all wheel drive in manual if you go for a smaller engine.

Sorry about the size of my post/rant, but it was my first one and I'm still annoyed that there's apparently no manual transmission in a car that's meant to be competing with infiniti and bmw. Any information anyone has would be great. Once again, sorry for the length.

banda

Forgot to add, as for pricing, again, I'm in Canada, but they all seem to be under the impression the price will be lower. Basically I was told, but they didn't know for sure, but the base IS250 should be pretty much the same price as the base smaller engine IS now. They want to come in to compete, so they aren't going to want to outprice themselves as they did with their GS series, which they came out with a tad too high initially, which is why Infiniti and the 12000 dollar + M class is getting a lot of customers. Also, in theory, a fully loaded IS350 should still be under the price of a base GS model because the GS is considered and entire class above the IS, and they can't really have them only being 1000 bucks apart. This is what all the salesmen seemed to think, mind you from scouring the web and reading here, I seemed to know more about the upcoming IS then half their sales staff, so who really knows.

jbdriver

From the articles that I have read and from what I have seen on Lexus' website, it appears that the automatic with the paddle shifters is all you get with the 350...yet another market niche that Lexus abandoned with it's "Halo" vehicle. I'm sure that it future years they may add it in, but it looks as though its only the automatic at the start.
As I stated in my previous post, for some reason Lexus is anticipating that the 250 to 350 sales ratio will be something like 80% to 20%...again that's from some video on Lexus' website...that seems crazy to me since the 250 IMHO is substantially underpowered...but who knows. Here's the weblink to lexus site in case you haven't alredy seen it, but it has all the details that you were asking about. link title

jbdriver

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if a fully loaded IS 350 butted right up against the stripped down GS.
For some reason I am not surprised that the Lexus salesmen knew less about the car than you do...their marketing VP only described it as thier new "halo" vehicle that was going to draw everyone to the brand...so it must not be that important. :P

frisconick

If they over price the IS it is not going to be competitive with the TL , BMW or the G35.

ribasaurus

There are about 15,000 reasons I'm looking at the TL and IS250 AWD. The GS is definitely more car, but I think I can get what I want for under $35. A GS with the options I'd want is pushing $50k.

If I started looking at the RL, then to me the GS is a no brainer.

frisconick

I agree, the TL, BMW, and G35 are all great cars at pretty good prices. These cars are really great values compared to the more upscale brothers. I much prefer the TL over the RL both in style and ride.

realty_pro

Motor Trend has the 2003 G35 sedan 6MT doing 0-60 in 5.78 sec. Consumer reports has the 2004 TL at 5.6 secs. How much faster is the 2005 G35 (298 hp) with 38 more horsepower?

The TL 6MT sedan is not faster than the 2005 G35 sedan 6MT. An educated guess would put the 2005 G in the 5.5 or lower range.

realty_pro

Correction: Consumer reports has the 2004 TL (270 hp) at 5.7 secs.

pg48477

and according to last C&D test it's fast but way to soft, with price close to 40 and no handling it should go against MB C's.

250 should be much cheaper I'll say around 30K, and with 6MT should go against 325. With the size and price of new IS I don't see it next to TL.

lainey

http://www.colexusclub.com/article34.html

simpson556

They didn't say it was way too soft. Did you read it? In fact they said it was almost too tight on the freeway. The handling is great, as is the stopping power (best in test)

I truely feel the IS will squash the TL, and I am a 05 TL owner. The rear drive, looks, quality, choice of engines, smooth 6 speed auto vs. Honda's questionable 5 sp, more HP, or more mileage, your choice. The ML sound is far better than the TL's, and the Nav is next geneartion, high resolution and light years ahead of the TL.

Oh, and you get a 7/70k mile powertrain warranty to, only 4/50k on the TL

And finally, it just looks killer, way better than the TL, better rims, tires, interior, etc.

Need I go on?

frisconick

Have you heard the DVD sound system in the TL, I doubt it, it is awesome. How much does the IS cost? The Honda AT is great, what are you talking about? :P

simpson556

You obviously didn't read my post. Yes I have heard the TL sound system, as I wrote I HAVE A 2005 TL.

We don't know how much the IS costs, they have not finalized prices. But estimated at $42k fully loaded.

The Honda AT is great? Um, search the internet my friend. My 2000 accord? Recalled for tranny problems. My 2003 TL-s? Extened warranty for excessive tranny failures. My 2005 TL? Ok so far, but rougher shifting than my 2001 GS300.

Honda has a long history of tranny problems with the V6 engines. Do a search.

laurasdada

The IS that has my interest is the rumored hard-top convertible. Must be mid-life crisis time. For the first time in many a moon, I think I want a convertible!

Anybody have any inside info on the convertible?

jrock65

I expect the IS350 to be better than the TL in most respects, except in room . . . the TL is a much bigger car. The TL also has a manual option.

Of course, the IS350 will have about a $7,000 premium, similarly equipped.

Street price difference may actually be about $10,000.

simpson556

The TL is certainly bigger, but it actually isn't that much bigger. It is about 9 inches longer and a little wider. Wheelbase, however, is the same. The IS actually has more front legroom. Admittedly, less room in other dimensions. It's a big concern of mine, and I will definietly have to sit in one for a while to see if it is too small for me realtive to my TL. At this point, the size is probably the only possible deal killer for me.

Yes there will be a $7k premium, but really, you get a lot more equipment. Adaptive lighting, vented seats, 6sp auto, 51 more HP, 18" wheels, new, faster nav with much higher resolution and more colors, much longer warranty, better interior materials, keyless start and entry, memory for passenger seat, 3 vs. 2 position memory for driver, better stereo, you get my point. If you check out all the features you actually get quite a bit more on the loaded lexus vs. the TL.

achadha1

I agree on the Honda Transmission as I had a 94 transmission. I think that was the worst car I have ever had... the shifting of the vtec engine was just way too jerky. I also had an 04 TL but also hated the automatic tranmission don't like the way it shifts much better then the V4 on the accord but still notice the jerkiness...i am currently driving an 02 GS430...that V8 is silky smooth and I lov it...

priggly

The ML sound is far better than the TL's

This may be your opinion but you are in the vast minority:

http://audioworld.com/news/0403/15.acura.els.audio.challenge.shtml

I don't own a TL but have heard both the ELS and the ML and the ELS to my ear was markedly better, not to mention the fact it also plays DVD-A's, which puts it on another (higher) plane altogether.

jrock65

The IS has the worst combined legrooom in this class.

People could actually sit in the backseat of the TL for hours. I really doubt you could take adults in the IS backseat for an extended trip without having a mutiny.

bodble2

The IS is actually gunning for the 3-series. Just compare the size, interior room, RWD (with AWD option), & price. I hate to admit it, but I think the general consensus will be that it is at least 1/2 to one full notch above the TL. In fact, I suspect Lexus may be mildly insulted if people try to match the TL against the IS. The TL is just collateral damage in the IS's wake, as it takes a run at the Benchmark from Bavaria.

(yes, pat, I know the 3-series is not part of this discussion, but I just want to opine that the combatants in this discussion may be inherently mismatched).

fdcapt2

The warranty for 2006 TL is 6years/70,000 miles, but still 4/50,000 bumper to bumper, and 4years/50,000 Roadside Assistance.

digital_b

perhaps you didnt know this but the tsx IS an accord. the euro accord to be exact. and for the record having owned an 04 tl it is nothing but an accord with new front and rear fascias built in marysville ohio. so if youre looking for a 'bargain' get an accord v6 with nav. its the same thing only boring.

digital_b

you have no idea what the next gen nav on the IS can do. the only known fact is that its higher resolution than the current 4th gen in lexus vehicles. the TL nav is currently the best one available and the voice activation of the climate/stereo/nav is something the lexus cannot touch at this time.

digital_b

having owned one between owning a benz suv and my current lexus ls 430 I can say for sure that true luxury cars dont have fading leather seats within 6 months and they dont have water in the door jambs when you wash them WITH A HOSE like the TL does. before you deny this do yourself a favor and dont. its well known within the forums on acura owner sites. the TL is a good value but its NOT a luxury car. I am hoping that the new IS lives up to the lexus standard while providing more fun driving than any lexus currently does.

simpson556

"This may be your opinion but you are in the vast minority:

http://audioworld.com/news/0403/15.acura.els.audio.challenge.shtml

I don't own a TL but have heard both the ELS and the ML and the ELS to my ear was markedly better, not to mention the fact it also plays DVD-A's, which puts it on another (higher) plane altogether."

Not a fair comparison, it is from 2004 when the TL was brand new and it was comparing to the LS430 ML, totally different system and car from the new IS. Early reviews indicate the new system is a leap forward. Of course we will have to see, but a two year old review against a different, older Lexus is not relevant.

simpson556

The IS has the worst combined legrooom in this class.

People could actually sit in the backseat of the TL for hours. I really doubt you could take adults in the IS backseat for an extended trip without having a mutiny.
True it is shy on rear legroom, but it has the best front legroom by far. And since I sit up front, that is my primary consideration. I'll take my wife's minivan if I need to take a bunch of other people in comfort. As long as my 6 year old can fit in the back I'm happy.

realty_pro

perhaps you didnt know this but the tsx IS an accord. the euro accord to be exact. and for the record having owned an 04 tl it is nothing but an accord with new front and rear fascias built in marysville ohio

A beefed up Honda Accord to be exact. LOL!

priggly

Early reviews indicate the new system is a leap forward.

Where are these "early reviews" and what exactly do they say? I very much doubt the new IS ML is so beefed up as to make the earlier comparison irrelevant.

frisconick

That is a compliment in my book, the Accord is a great car. And the Lexus ES shares a platform with the very fine Camry. Additionally, most in the auto industry believe the styling of the TL is fantastic. :P

uvawahoo

The new IS will be a great car, but nobody can say it will be better than the TL. No matter if you are a millionaire, or if you can only spend between 30-40K, you have to see if the extra features that the IS offer, are worth more than the features that the TL offers. I bought a 2004 TL, and one of the biggest attractors for me was the fact that it wasn't RWD. I would obviously prefer AWD, but Acura has at least created a pretty fun FWD car. Plus, the size of the rear seats really impressed me. I've sat in my friends BMW 3, Lexus IS, and Mercedes C-Class, and at 6 feet, I had to turn my legs to fit in.

Now to me, I wouldn't be interested in buying the IS250, mostly because I crave the power. And the new IS350 only comes in RWD, which would definitely turn me off. So, to say one is better than the other would be tough, especially if the IS250 is going to be the same price as the TL. To cough up the extra dough will be an individual's judgment call.

simpson556

See in my case, I like RWD and have no use for AWD, so to me the IS will in fact be "better" than the TL. You are right I will have to see it and play with the new features to determine if it is worth the extra cost over my current TL.

The TL is a good car and a good value, but it doesn't mean something else can't come along that is better. In the case of the IS, it has impressive specs compared to the TL, plus it has Lexus renowned quality of materials which most people agree are better than Acura.

You talk about the rear seats, yet you probably haven't sat in the new IS rear seats right? Besides how often do you sit in the rear seats of your own car? Personally I never have. If you want big rear seats buy the new Avalon, which makes the TL interior look like a compact.

frisconick

I sat in the rear seat in my TL and had my wife drive me around, sort of like a TL-limo, she said it was a strange experienc :P I liked the ride and had plenty of leg room. But that is actually my wife's TL and I am in the market for a car. What is the hp of the new 06 IS, and any one who has driven one, what it's like? thanks

simpson556

The new IS 350 is rated at 306 hp. There are reviews now available in Road and Track and Car and Driver magazines. You can also go to www.clublexus.com and get links to "regular people" reviews.

Most have been quite impressive, especially with the power in the 350. The quiteness and smoothness have also been noted.

frisconick

Thanks simpson, that is impressive.

navigator89

Car and Driver just did a comparison test featuring the IS350 and TL.

bigb82

One thing that people keep forgetting even though the new IS got re-done is category. Lexus IS is a sport compact sedan which levels with the 3 series and the Acura TSX NOT the Acura TL, the TL levels the same as GS and so fourth, so I think that is a wrongful comparison to begin with but that in all is what makes the new IS so amazing that it kills the TSX and cars IN ITS CLASS....although as a previous IS owner and a future owner of the new IS i do agree and am VERY disappointed that lexus did NOT fix the backseat issue, but from a business standpoint they wanted to make a fast car that is a compact car, so it would not rival with its own GS brand, but yet also the pricing on the decked out IS and GS base are almost identicial so maybe there differentiation of that would be the class and segment they are going after as a company.

msu79gt82

Lexus IS is a sport compact sedan which levels with the 3 series and the Acura TSX NOT the Acura TL, the TL levels the same as GS and so fourth

Gotta disagree on this one. The TL does NOT compare to the GS - the RL does!

fedlawman

I guess it depends on how you define the "sport compact class."

Would you say the Lexus IS and Subaru WRX are in the same category? They are both sporty and compact...

Personally, I don't think this "class" is defined by the amount of back seat room. One should probably take consider the cars price, curb weight, engine size/power, and luxury too.

bodble2

I don't think this is a fair comparison. The IS will be way more money than theTSX.

realty_pro

The TL is in the IS, 3 series & G35 class, not the GS. Geez.... And of the 4, the TL takes fourth (according to C & D).

realty_pro

If the "gotta have" category was removed from the results, the IS would win on its merit. Basically, C&D gave the 3 series the one point victory because of the "gotta have" (self esteem) factor. Thanks, but no thanks C&D. I'll take an IS350 in black.....

fedlawman

"the TL takes fourth (according to C & D)."

Consider that the TL offers near 330i levels of performance at a 325i price. If you want a high level of performance, quality, and amenities for one of the lowest prices in this class, the TL comes in 1st.

"the IS would win on its merit."

The BMW won because C&D places a high level of importance on performance, and BMW engineers it's cars for performance 1st, and luxury 2nd (at least for the 3-series). So, ask yourself how Lexus engineered the new IS...here's some help:

A September 6th quote from the C&D "Ask the Expert" forum (which is linked at www.lexus.com). this forum is described as "your opportunity to post questions directly to the Chief Engineer, Suguya Fukusato, who is responsible for the design, development and engineering planning of both the IS 350 and the IS 250."

"Q) Why have early reviews indicated that the IS isn't even close to the 3-series in the handling category?
A) Actually, most reviews recognize the new IS’ highly competent and confident handling, but some would like to see more feedback in some conditions—a very subjective area. Lexus intentionally puts emphasis on luxury – to minimize steering kickback on rough roads, for example – as well as sport."

Bottom line? None of these cars is a "loser." These are sporty, luxurious, expensive sedans that simply offer different balances of sport, luxury, and expense. Don't try to pick a "winner" - simply pick the ratio of each aspect that suits YOU, and make YOUR decision.

kdshapiro

If the "gotta have" factor was removed from the equation none of these vehicles would win. The fact that someone is debating should I spend $33K or $43K on a vehicle tells me there is a "gotta have" factor in there somewhere for all of the vehicles in this class. It's absolutely pointless to say one vehicle has a "gotta have" factor but the others are just run of the mill basic transportation.

These cars are in a class called sports sedans, and as such they get judged in their ability to be a sports sedan. HP, slalom and other performance measurements all go into the final results and all are weighted in some fashion.

realty_pro

Consider that the TL offers near 330i levels of performance at a 325i price. If you want a high level of performance, quality, and amenities for one of the lowest prices in this class, the TL comes in 1st.

I considered what C & D considered: the TL takes 4th place because of a very valid point-- it is FWD. The TL seems like a descent enough car, but it is not a true sport sedan because of the FWD platform. But you are right: "Bottom line? None of these cars is a "loser." These are sporty, luxurious, expensive sedans that simply offer different balances of sport, luxury, and expense. Don't try to pick a "winner" - simply pick the ratio of each aspect that suits YOU, and make YOUR decision."

fedlawman

"it is not a true sport sedan because of the FWD platform."

Neither of these cars is a "true sport sedan." They are too long, too wide, too soft, and too heavy.

Who cares which wheels are being driven? The IS and TL are vpractically minivans in weight and wheelbase, and they both have numb, overboosted steering.

They're competent and fun enough at 8/10ths on a freeway onramp or twisty canyon road, but they are a far cry from sports cars.