Acura TL vs Lexus IS 350

cruznsd

you must be smoking crack if you think you can touch an IS350 for 35K. The way they are equipped around here the IS250's are nearly that. But hey its all good!
It says alot when a 3 year old design costing thousands less is holding its own being compared with the 350.

Anyway, if budget wasn't in our dictionaries we would be in a forum comparing an AMG against an M5 instead.

I think that the times and speeds and G-force measurements being so similar between the two platforms FW vs RW can be misleading. The times may be similar but the drivers experience was not, RW is a much more graceful and enjoyable way to push a car to its limit. FW may stick with it, but its gonna be squirrly and easily upset in the twistys.

louiswei

Maybe they should disable the VDIM and do another test on the IS. One of the car magazines (C&D I think) did turn off the VDIM during the comparison with the 330i. They were impressed. However, they decided not to count that part of the test into the result because they claimed there is no "formal" way to turn off the VDIM.

louiswei

you must be smoking crack if you think you can touch an IS350 for 35K

I guessed I was smoking when I bought mine back in March for $35.5K then.

Anyway, if budget wasn't in our dictionaries we would be in a forum comparing an AMG against an M5 instead

Agreed.

Also agree with your assessment on the FWD vs. RWD comparison. That's exactly the reason I believe a performance sedan should come with either RWD or AWD.

ggesq

Would you also agree that a performance sedan should have a manual tranny available for those that want it?

louiswei

Would you also agree that a performance sedan should have a manual tranny available for those that want it?

Yes and that's one of the shortcomings of the IS350. Like I said in the other discussion, if Lexus truly wants to be a player in this segment they must to put a manual tranny on their performance sedan, even if it's only availabe through special order.

I think the problem with Lexus is they are too market-oriented. They do good market research and they build cars base on that. That's why their cars always sells good. Unfortunately the market shows that majority of the buyers (70% at least) are automatic buyer and Lexus also predicted that only 30% of their IS sales will come from the 350 (I think they were a little off on this one, it's more like 40-60 in my opinion). Thus they think the manual IS350 numbers are insignificant so they are willing to go all automatic in order to save on production cost. I think that's one reason why the enthusiasts can't stand Lexus and I understand where they are coming from. However, for a non-enthusiast average Joe like me, the IS350 is perfect.

maxidrive

I got my IS 350 pretty much loaded - except for the Mark Levinson audio and the pre-collision/dynamic cruise control system, for $40K before tax/fees. The other difference between these 2 cars that makes the IS more expensive is it's built in Japan and the TL built here in the U.S. on the Honda Accord platform. Some of the reasons I opted for the IS 350 over the TL and 3-Series are its slick exterior looks - especially front and profile, classy and luxurious interior, engine power, Lexus prestige and reliability, and just the fact that there are so few on the road, making it more desirable and seemingly exclusive.

louiswei

the fact that there are so few on the road, making it more desirable and seemingly exclusive.

maxidrive, that's also one of the reasons I opted for IS350 over the TL and 3. However recently that has changed. Just spotted another IS in my subdivion a month after I got mine (it's a 250 though) and another one (not sure it's a 250 or 350) a week after that .

After I moved to Florida 2 months ago I enjoyed a short-lived excluseness for about a month. Just 3 weeks ago I spotted a silver IS250 in my apartment complex. So I guess the secret is out but I hope the IS doesn't end up like the 3 series which they are about just as common as the Accord in the metro Atlanta area.

maxidrive

They're still very few in New England. I've just spotted 7 or 8 so far on the road and none of them is in Tungsten Pearl like mine. It's still a big time head-turner up here!

louiswei

Well, I don't spot them often on the road, actually less than 5, one of them being pulled over by the cops during my trip to FL (can't resist the HP I guessed). However, they just kept turning up around where I live and that just amazed me. I got a Blue Onyx and so far I haven't seen any of those of the road yet.

goodegg

I bought the 06 TL for $31K. Sure I'd rather have the IS350, but for another $9K? Na. 260hp is good enough. Plus the TL gets 32 mpg highway FWIW.

berlina

To get NAV on an IS you don't have to spend 44,500.
And you are right, they are Apples vs. Oranges... in terms of Quality.

berlina

Since when did it get 32?I see 20 and 29 for both Auto and Manual.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov

berlina

I also see in several posts, people implying that Automatics are not sporty.

SL55, SL65, C55....AMG/MB People do make good automatics. Just not Honda

ajes

Looks like according to TOV that the 07 TL may get the 3.5L engine which will make it a little closer to the IS.

laurasdada

Those are EPA estimates. In real world driving, cars may get better/worse true mileage. The TL, given its power/weight, gets very good highway mpg. From my observation 30+ mpg if you keep it below 75ish...

I agree about cars and exclusivity. It's nice not to see yourself coming and going. When I bought my '05 TL, it was (relatively) rare. No longer... The bright side is that folks know what excellent taste I have in cars, so they copied me! :shades:

cruznsd

Berlina, you better check the problems on the Toyota avalon there have been many and it is the same drivetrain as the 350 and then tell me about quality. I just got rid of a es330 and it was fine for quality and fit and finish, but it was like driving a car completely detached from the road, no input coming back to the driver at all. Stereo was mediocre and the TL nav system is hands down better.

Out here in CA the 250/350's are fast becoming a common vehicle. I know most are probably leased so perhaps in a couple years you could pick one up for a reasonable amount.

There are no 350's being sold in san diego for less than 40 due to the way the dealers have them optioned up 35.5K gets you a 250.

And if you have not experienced driving an audi with a DSG you need to. Manuals will become a thing of the past thats the direction that the IS and the TL need to pursue.

berlina

Before you're a smart [non-permissible content removed] with me, you better check the fact that the DSG is a manual--with an automated Clutch. OF course, I was the person vouching for the Automatic. I do think however that manuals are the truest and purest form of gear change communication between a driver and his car. It can also be the most rewarding.

As far as preaching to me about quality, I have owned 7 Hondas, All but 2 had/have serious problems. Electrical problems, several transmissions, condenser problems.
I don't know about you, but I would drive a car that felt disconnected from the road if it would stay out of the shop less than 1/2 of the year unlike the Hondas I have owned.

louiswei

First of all, Avalon doesn't have the same engine as the IS350. Avalon shares the 2GR-FE engine with Camry and ES350 and IS350 uses the 2GR-FSE and so does the GS450h. Also, Lexus' ES is famous for it's Buick-like handling so it is inadequate to use your experience with ES to judge the IS.

Second, I guess we are just lucky that in the South we are able to get any kind of IS350 that we want and I got one for $35.5K (not special ordered).

taxesquire

I'm really enjoying the back-and-forth on the "which is more sporty" argument and just wanted to weigh in without replying to anyone in particular.

Clearly a true sports car will be RWD and have a manual tranny. It seems that where we "sporty-car types" disagree is whether it is more sporty to have a FWD MT or a RWD AT. Personally, I think my FWD 6MT TL is more sporty than any automatic out there. The FWD platform absolutely limits the joy I have with it, but the "sport" part is just missing from automatics. You can slam on the gas and enjoy teh ride in a lot of vehicles - SO WHAT?

The sport part is determining when to upshift and downshift, whether to maximize accelleration or fuel economy. The automatic takes out part of the human equation and limits the sportiness much more than FWD.

Also, something I've read from testers that I haven't seen commented on here is that the TL has superior handling. I never test-drove an IS since I bought my TL before the redesigned IS came about, but if anyone's test-driven both, what did you think of the handling?

ggesq

Check the problems & solutions forums for the IS on Edmunds as well as on Club Lexus and other websites. It has its own share of problems.

Nice car for the most part- but not perfect.

Additionally, there are Lexus models w/ tranny issues e.g. ES 330/350.

IMHO, for the most part you can't go wrong w/ a Honda or Toyota product.

Just my .02.

louiswei

The sport part is determining when to upshift and downshift, whether to maximize accelleration or fuel economy.

If you are only looking to upshift and downshift then you can achieve that in a manumatic. However, I know you'll tell me that I am wrong because a manumatic doesn't connect the driver to the engine like a manu does. For that, you are right.

I personally don't think the "sports" in sports sedan is determine by manu transmission. It's determine by the car's ability to corner better, accelerate better, etc. Does an automatic takes away some of the "fun" factor? Definitely. But that is not the only factor to determine whether or not a car is sporty.

I test drove of TL and IS. I fealt TL being a little bit of nose-heavy but overall I didn't feel much difference between the 2. However, I am by no means an enthusiast so my "feeling" might be totally off the chart.

louiswei

Nice car for the most part- but not perfect.

Have you got a perfect car for us?

z71bill

The IS is a smaller car - plus the turning diameter is 33.5 feet for the IS and 39.6 for the TL.

This to me makes the IS much easier to drive - you can buzz around like you are driving a go-cart in the IS - the TL is more boat like.

habitat1

"As far as preaching to me about quality, I have owned 7 Hondas, All but 2 had/have serious problems. Electrical problems, several transmissions, condenser problems."

I have to ask the obvious: if you kept having problems with Honda's, why the hell did you keep buying them? Is it some "glutton for punishment" religious requirement?

"I don't know about you, but I would drive a car that felt disconnected from the road if it would stay out of the shop less than 1/2 of the year unlike the Hondas I have owned."

Fortunately, today, you don't have to make that trade off. If you've really had rotten luck with Honda, buy a BMW. Or maybe an Audi. Heck, even Infiniti makes some candidates.

"I was the person vouching for the Automatic. I do think however that manuals are the truest and purest form of gear change communication between a driver and his car. It can also be the most rewarding."

Well, I'll give you credit for the last part of your statement redeeming your previous post touting the sporty virtues of the SL55/65, CLS55 and other offerings by AMG. They, in my opinion, are about as "sporty" as the muscle guys who pummel drives 400 yards in the Pinnacle Long Drive Contest. Tiger could beat them blindfolded on a golf course. So, for that matter, could Michele Wie. In 2002 I bought a $32k Honda S2000 when I could have afforded a $65k SLK32 and last year I bought a 911S 6-speed when I could have afforded a 600+ hp AMG anything. AMG does not make sports cars. They make muscle cars. Very good ones, if that's what you want. I wanted a sports car both times.

I, by the way, think Lexus and Acura both make excellent vehicles, but geared towards different buyers. I would not have bought a TL in 2004 if they hadn't intorduced the 6-speed with the Brembo brakes and stiffer suspension. Even though it's no 550i 6-speed, it's a good all around performaer that is fun to drive. I'm curious as to why Lexus didn't offer the IS350 in a 6-speed version, but it does seem that they really haven't committed to going after the driving enthusiast buyer. The SC430 appears to be targeting the 55+ year old female crowd that puts on make-up while driving. I did own a Toyota Supra many years ago. Maybe as that market fizzled in the mid 90's, Toyota/Lexus decided to stay away in the future.

louiswei

Like I said, Toyota/Lexus got way too market-oriented. They do good market research and they stick with what's working for them. Is that bad? Yes if you are an enthusiast. However, one can't deny that they wouldn't be where they are today without being that.

cruznsd

Berlina, smart [non-permissible content removed] with you? what are you talking about? I know the DSG is a manual tranny that can be shifted automatically or operated completely automatically. The important thing is that when you shift, it shifts now, not like the manumatics available in the TL and IS.

Sounds to me like you have had bad luck with your hondas unlike the majority of mankind. stay connected

ggesq

I guess you failed to realize the subtle humor in my reply to berlina's post re: quality differences between the IS & the TL....

The point of my statement was merely to portray the mere (dare I say) possibility that Lexus has quality issues just like any other manufacturer. However, I still believe that Honda/Toyota still make some of the most quality line of automobiles.

ggesq

"This to me makes the IS much easier to drive - you can buzz around like you are driving a go-cart in the IS - the TL is more boat like."

According to C & D, the TL actually out-performed the IS 350 in slalom as well as lane passing :P

louiswei

However, I still believe that Honda/Toyota still make some of the most quality line of automobiles.

Agreed.

louiswei

According to C & D, the TL actually out-performed the IS 350 in slalom as well as lane passing

Perhaps they should disable the VDIM and perform those tests again. I can't wait until they got their hands on a 07' IS350 and do the slalom and lane passing without the intrusive VDIM.

z71bill

I don't care much about the slalom or skid pad numbers from C&D - or any magazine - I base my opinion on actually driving the cars. But they are more objective measures than my seat of the pants tests. I guess to be more acurate maybe I should say the steering is better in the IS (rather than the handling). I think the IS would be much easier to buzz through heavy traffic in - weaving through the cars - changing lanes - at 50+ MPH. Like the every day drive to work in most larger cities. Think its a combo of the sharper steering and smaller size give the IS the edge.

I bought the TL and think it handles fine - but my Tahoe has a sharper turning circle than the TL (38.3 feet for the Tahoe, 39.7 for the TL). Not sure why the TL needs so much space to turn around - but I really noticed this at during my test drives. I just figured that after a few weeks of driving it I would adjust to the steering - which I have.

ew3074

Every manufacturer has some issues on their cars. The main point is whether they are willing to solve it or not. As I know,Acura TL has some issues before. So nothing is perfect. However, Lexus set the bar higher than most of the car companies.

ggesq

"I think the IS would be much easier to buzz through heavy traffic in - weaving through the cars - changing lanes - at 50+ MPH."

Again, the TL out-performed the IS on changing lanes according to C & D :P :P But, you probably don't care about where that conclusion came from. If that is your opinion then I am cool with that because you spent your dollars on what was best for you. I am merely pointing out what a car mag has said when comparing these vehicles.

I definately agree with about the horrendous turning circle of the TL.

"Not sure why the TL needs so much space to turn around - but I really noticed this at during my test drives."

Probably because of its FWD platform.

ggesq

Again,

Lexus/Toyota owners also have problems with corporate when dealing with quality control issues. Just browse the forums and confirm that for yourself---if you care.

"So nothing is perfect."

Agreed.

"The main point is whether they are willing to solve it or not."
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Acura replace transmissions on problem 3rd generation TL's?

In all fairness, Lexus/Toyota has replaced transmissions in their own problem vehicles.

ggesq

"When's the last time you where driving around little cones in a line?"

Honestly- never. This subject came up because of the debate. Read the preceding posts and you can see how it developed.

"I Agree, Honda/Toyota does make some of the most reliable car on the road, but i don't see a point in this comparison, they are in no way alike. The IS is more TSX size."

100% agree with you.

bearvp

I still contend that the IS350 is out of the TL's league in every category to be compared with. The TL is a fine car, but aside from the crappy VDIM, the 350 beats out the TL in every way...but for thousands more for similar features. You get what you pay for. Maybe we should be comparing the IS250 with the TL instead...which in my opinion the TL would come out ontop.

Does anyone here lease cars and then wait to decide on buying them after the lease is up? I was thinking about doing that for the 350.

ivan_99

"Not sure why the TL needs so much space to turn around - but I really noticed this at during my test drives."

Probably because of its FWD platform.

It’s probably the transverse engine layout…which leaves little room in the engine compartment compared to a longitudinal layout.

…which is why the TL, as well as the S60, have a turning radius 3-4 feet larger their competition; the IS actually has a really tight turning radius…33 feet or so.

Though the Passat is a transverse layout and has a turning radius similar to a 3 series ,CTS etc…so I suppose it is possible to engineer a tighter radius.

habitat1

This came up before. I do not think a small or large turning radius has anything to do with handling performance or feel.

Unless your driving habits include a lot of U-turns and "lock to lock" steering maneuvers, the fact that the TL has a large truning radius vs. a G35 or IS350 is meaningless for how it feels and handles on the twisties. That is dictated by steering ratio (quickness), precision (tight vs. loose) and the ever ellusive steering "feel" which BMW still seems to have a monopoly on.

So the fact that I can't do a complete U-turn on my street with our TL when I have room to spare with our 911 is a pain in the butt, but did not change my favorable impression of the TL (6-speed) in my Rock Creek Parkway slalom test. No cones, but more relevant.

scottm123

Actually, I'm on the fence for an IS350 with the Luxury package:
Luxury Package with 18-in wheels includes:
- Auburn bird's-eye maple interior trim
- Perforated leather-trimmed interior
- Power tilt-and-telescopic steering column
- Lexus Memory System for power driver's seat (except lumbar) outside mirrors and steering wheel
- Heated and ventilated front seats
- Illuminated doorsill scuff plates
- Power rear-window sunshade
- Rain-sensing intermittent windshield wipers with mist cycle
- Electrochromic (auto-dimming) outside mirrors with auto tilt-down in reverse
- Bi-xenon High Intensity Discharge (HID) headlamps
- Adaptive Front Lighting System (AFS)
- 18-in alloy wheels

Additional Options:
- Lexus voice-activated DVD Navigation System
- Intuitive Parking Assist
- Headlamp washers

Totals out to = $43,069.00

The GS300 with similar options is $50,684.00

But remember... it's not the same car.
One is a Luxury Sports Sedan, the other lacks in the "sports" arena.
For that, you'd want to GS430... with similar options, you're now at $59,109.00

scottm123

I've driven the IS250, IS350 and TL

I like the stick in the TL, and I am happy with the layout of the interior as well as the xtra 3" of backseat legroom.

As for the IS.. I love the idea of AWD in the 250, but hate the idea of being smoked by some punk in a '98 Mustang GT.

I absolutely love the IS350 in every way, shape and form except for the RWD. I'm in MA and I know about bad winters... RWD would not be the most responsible decision I've made.

It's currently between the TL and the IS250.
If I decide on power alone, the TL would win hands down.

But I care more about quality, comfort and handling.
Personally, (and I did say "personally")
I think the IS wins in this arena.

The sport shifts are a fun feature, I absolutely love the vented seats and wish the TL had them, and I like the keyless ignition as well. The seats are also MUCH more comfortable than the Acura's.
I also get the sense of a higher quality, smoother ride, and better handling as well.

I just like the pricetag on the TL a whole lot more.
I'll be paying cash when I buy.

To drop $35,000 and get rattles, fading dashes and spotted paint, let's just say that I wouldn't be happy.
I know that any car can and will have issues... but the TL seems to see these issues a lot, so naturally, I'm concerned.

Waiting for the '07 TL Type-S before I decide.

louiswei

You'll be happy with either car I am sure. Neither one will give you problems like fading dashes and spotted paint. If you are unlucky and got rattles problem just make sure your dealer find out where the problem is and solve it.

Since you've mentioned Type-S, I personally don't think that's gonna happen. I know there are rumors from the dealers that a Type-S is coming but I just don't believe it. Acura's been trying to get rid of its boy-racer image to become a truly luxury brand and introducing a Type-S just contradict that. However, I am staying tuned for the unveil of the 07' TL.

ggesq

Out of curiosity, why wait for the 07 TL since the 06 TL already wins hands down in regards to power?

What differences in the 07 are you looking for? According to you, it might still be prone to rattles, faded dash and spotted pain since the 07 is a MMC and not a redesign.

The major redesign will only come sometime in 08.

maxidrive

As long as you have a second vehicle to drive in winter, you can get the 350. That's what I got and I live in Connecticut because I'll drive my Toyota when we get snow.

animalsrush

Rattles are annoying but the dealers fix them.. Also with faded dash some treatments mentioned on these forums work. TL is a great car and IMO has enough power for day to day driving.. I absolutely love it

scottm123

"why wait for the 07 TL since the 06 TL already wins hands down in regards to power?"

Because power alone cannot make my decision, but the minor changes due in '07 are enough to make me wait.
In my 45 minute commute each day, I could probably count 100 TLs on my drive. I'd like something slightly different.

Also, the TL misses a few points that I personally found attractive in the IS.
Like the vented seats.
It's like sitting on an angel's face while she blows sweet cool air on my undercarriage.

So far, the IS has the edge.... but I'll give the '07 TL a fair chance before deciding.
I'm already thinking of ways to spend the $10,000 I'd save! :shades:

laurasdada

"In my 45 minute commute each day, I could probably count 100 TLs on my drive..."

So, every day you see 100 paint-spotted with faded dashboards TLs. And, of course, you can see the pained look on the driver's faces as the hundreds of interior rattles are driving them to drink. I can't believe that so many people keep buying the TL with these prevalant, unaddressed by Honda, problems! Not to mention all that "harmonic vibrating" that no doubt has the TLs all bouncing around the highway...

Why are you even considering the TL?

I'm probably one of those TLs, if you're south of Boston. So far, shiny Abyss Blue Zaino'd paint with no "spots?", "faded" dash cleaned up by the dealer and one unique rattle fixed by the dealer (only when sunroof was in "vent" position. Replacecd sunroof wind deflector, problem solved). Other rattles are all the detritus I've stuffed in all the cubby holes!

And, re: snow, in a long series of FWD cars ('78 VW Scirocco through my '05 TL), the TL is the worst snow performer I've driven. It's the tires... So even if you choose the TL for its FWD/snow performance, like a RWD you may want snow tires.

I dig my TL, imperfections and all... :shades:

scottm123

~Sigh~... I knew that sooner or later, laurasdada would come along.

I never said that the TL was a POS. If it was, It wouldn't be on my consideration list.
I know you love your TL and you've had great luck, and I am very glad for you.
In fact, most are very happy with their TLs.
That wasn't what I said, meant, or in any way implied.
BTW, if I thought Acura was in the habit of building junk, I certainly wouldn't have dropped so much coin on my new '06 MDX Touring w/ Nav and RES.

I said that I'm on the IS/TL fence, which is what this particular forum is for.

As for how it performs in the snow... any car with Torque and HP to spare, paired with performance tires, will suck in the snow.

IS or TL... Snows on a set of wheels (Along with clear bra) are already in the plans.

The TL will be better in the snow than the IS350.
The IS250 will be better than the TL.
The IS250 is a little underpowered for my tastes.
The TL offers a little more room in the back for my daughter.
The IS is an amazing car to drive and I personaly like the exterior look much better than that of the TL.

If I was to just throw caution to the wind and follow my heart, it would be the IS350... but I'm well aware of what the TL can offer me and for the price, it's still a contender.

Ugh... I just don't know yet. :confuse:

habitat1

FWIW, I have a 2004 TL 6-speed. I have not had any of the issues you expressed concern with, nor have at least 4-5 frinds and neighbors who bought after me. No rattles, the dash looks fine if I use Maguires wipes every 3-4 months and the piant (anthracite) is fine.

As far as bad winters favoring FWD, I would caution you that even the FWD TL, with high performance low profile tires (I got the "HPT" package), can be a handful in the snow. If you are going to drive in snow for 3-4 months of the year, I'd invest in an extra set of wheels and snow tires. A RWD with the proper tires is better than FWD with improper ones.

Finally, as for waiting for the TL-S, in my opinion, more power to the front wheels of a TL is of limited value. My 6-speed is plenty quick enough for a "sporty" sedan. We have a 2005 911S if we want to play Mario Andretti and go 0-60 in 4.2 seconds. But if I had instead decided to go with a performance sport sedan, the choice would have likely been a 550i 6-speed. It has the chassis, steering, proper drivetrain, etc. to handle the power. The TL is FWD, the IS is too small and the GS has a sloppy suspension.

louiswei

habitat1, I am going to sound a bit like an [non-permissible content removed] and I'll apologize here first.

I am just sick and tired that everytime we are discussing the performance of these sports sedans, you brought up your beloved Porsche 911S. It's great that you can afford such awesome car and get to play Mario Andretti but some of us can only afford 1 car and we would like that car to the be best that we can afford. The reason I went with the IS350 is because I want the best performance for my money and I got that in the IS. I believe that there are many people out there waiting for the TL-S because they also want the best performance for their money.

Yes, it might be like what you said, more power to the TL has limited value but one can't deny that more is better. It also gives the bragging rights to us whom don't have the luxury to own a 911 (maybe one day but not now).

Just a little rant and if I offended anyone, I am sorry.

laurasdada

Hi, Scott:

I was just funnin' ya, hard to tell from my post I guess. I was smiling as I typed. And I didn't think you considered the TL to be a POS...

To me, it's just that your posts sounded like you give more credibility to the few that have posted (and don't believe everything you read...!) of problems as opposed to the majority of TLers who post favorable reviews. And again, my TL hasn't been perfect. I've posted re: the dash and a rattle. But to me, very, very minor issues. But I guess with Acura/Honda's rep for quality (a la Lexus/Toyota) any imperfection is magnified...

Anyway, what a lovely dilemma you have! This is the joy of shopping for a new car. Whatever car ends up in your garage will be the best car for you! Both winners.

For symmetry in the Universe, you should probably get the IS as my wife drives a Lexus RX. That way, we'll each be Acura/Lexus families...

Keep us posted of your continued struggles and ultimate decision.