Hyundai Sonata vs. Honda Accord vs. Toyota Camry vs. Ford Fusion

goodegg

Allright allright. I'm test driving a Sonata this long weekend. What the heck. See what your buzz is all about.....

explorerx4

i'm going to the local auto show next weekend. will only be able to post about sitting in the various cars.
some give and take is a good thing.

backy

Thatta way! While you're at it, why not drive the Fusion and Sonata back-to-back and give us your impressions of how the newest mid-sizers compare?

goodegg

You should actually test drive a used Sonata too. Most cars feel fine in the first year or two. Its when they get over 60K miles on them when you start to find out how well the car is put together and performs. Most Japanese cars are built to last 10 years. How many 10 year old Korean cars are out there that are still in good running order?

oldjoe

Evidently the Sonata sales are not positive as Hyundai has put a $2,000 factory rebate on the Sonata only weeks after the initial introduction. Whether the general USA public will ever get a mindset that Hyundai produces quality products still seems to be up ion the air. We would hate to see the employees at the new plant in the USA laid off due to low sales of the Sonata. They have barely started working. Of course we are all happy to see that a new auto production plant has been started in the United States, no matter how low quality the education is in the new plant area. Automation removes much of the problem.

snakeweasel

How many 10 year old Korean cars are out there that are still in good running order?

While not actually 10 years old I most likely will have as many miles on my hyundai within the next year to equal what many drive in 10 years and its still going strong. There is the one person that I used to work with thats driving a Scoup thats about 15 years old. Other than that off all the cars that I am personally aware of that are over 10 years old only one is Japanese (my moms old car and she only was driving less that 5k a year).

FWIW I took an 85 Dodge omni to about 165K and a 91 Chevy Corsica to 170k (the guy who bought it drove it another 85K before dropping the transmission) I plan to beat that with my Hyundai. So far its still running great.

1racefan

"Of course we are all happy to see that a new auto production plant has been started in the United States, no matter how low quality the education is in the new plant area."

I have a hard time agreeing with that point - some of the best craftsmen I have ever meat have not even finished high school. Granted, some of them can't do their own taxes, but they are extremely good at their trade/craft.

Regarding the rebates - It is an uphill battle for Hyundai. How do you convince people that have never even sat in one of your products, but have heard and read horror stories about their older vehicles to put you on their list to be cross shopped with the Accord and Camry? Marketing can only do so much in terms of showing people the cars - what Hyundai needs os for people to actually go test drive the Sonata (assuming it is all that the Sonata fanatics claim it is).

snakeweasel

Evidently the Sonata sales are not positive as Hyundai has put a $2,000 factory rebate on the Sonata only weeks after the initial introduction.

From what I am able to find out Sonata sales are ahead of last year and Hyundai is expecting a sizable increase in sales from 2005 to 2006 model lines.

Of course we are all happy to see that a new auto production plant has been started in the United States, no matter how low quality the education is in the new plant area.

Now was that really called for? What makes you think that the quality of education in the new plant is low quality?

snakeweasel

Granted, some of them can't do their own taxes,

I have spent many a winter in the trenches doing tax work, you would be surprised at who cannot do taxes. Even some tax preparers at national tax places

1racefan

Bad analogy - What I am getting at is that I am more concerned about how skilled the individual building my future car is at their trade than where the degree (if any) hanging on their wall came from.

oldjoe

Due to the apparent lack of build quality and quality checks in manufacture in the Sonata when I did a quick side-by-side comparison in a parking lot with my 05 Accord, I still feel that Honda is not a threat. Now I have to find a Fusion to also do a comparison test. However, for those who could care less about quality, perceived value or price, the Sonata will be a good choice, because whatever the build poor quality and longevity of parts, all repairs are covered by the extensive guarantee that had to be put on the auto just to get any sales at all.

Now we must see how the engines and build quality are in the not-built-yet (if ever) Hyundai marine engines, minivans, SUVs, ATVs, lawn mowers, trucks, sports cars, lawn edgers, weed wackers, ad infinitum. When and if they are brought out (if ever), then maybe we would have a direct comparison.

Trying to bring out one only competitive product in a myriad of products is a gambling beginning for quick sales, however, if it the gamble succeeds, then maybe a second product trying to be competitive will be brought out.

Remember, Honda also had tremendous birthing pains because of the Odyssey trying to be built in Canada where quality builds could not be established. However, Honda solved it by clamping down and re training and re training and re traing on the work force and by opening a plant in the United States where the work force is a heck of a lot smarter and has a stronger work ethic. At least Hyundai started the Sonata experiment in the right country.

tenpin288

Oldjoe,

Take a look at my post #774. You will see that Sonata sales are up on a month to month basis and on a calendar year to date basis. While they aren't up where you seem to expect them to be, they are selling better than the previous generation and are on a pace to sell near Hyundai's stated goal of 150,000 06 Sonatas in the first year. That doesn't seem to me to be a failure, unless you expect them to be instantly in the Camry/Accord level right out of the gate! :P

oldjoe

I myself did not have a college education but qualified in IBM at a master degree level in Technical writing, education and development...in other words I agree with you. however, I am referring to the lackluster and wholly inadequate education in some of our southern states. hyundai was shocked when they had to conduct a TWO-WEEK course for new hires that taught them left from right, how to read a torque meter and how NOT to cross-thread a bolt (public news column). In pother words, we produced an unskilled high-school graduate level in the area where Hyundai was building their plant.

oldjoe

$2,000 factory incentives this close to a major new car announcement points to a total failure of sales hype and projected sales...sigh, maybe we have another Edsel on our hands? Rental car sales are in the mix you speak of...you will note that Honda does not normally sell to the rental car throw away business.

goodegg

I like Hondas too, but not gonna take a pot shot at any hard working American. You got numbnuts in every part of this country in this skill level. I don't think Hyundai engineering is suspect - or the workers putting the pieces together. I think Hyundai's battle is showing a good long term report card to the car buying public that says they're worthy of the buyer's dollar. Especially if a 5 year old vehicle is handed down to a teenager as their first car.

tenpin288

how the engines and build quality are in the not-built-yet (if ever) Hyundai marine engines, minivans, SUVs, ATVs, lawn mowers, trucks, sports cars, lawn edgers, weed wackers, ad infinitum. When and if they are brought out (if ever), then maybe we would have a direct comparison.

Take a look at these websites. They have plenty of information about a company with a long and rich heritage (just like Honda and Toyota) and the quality products they manufacture, from cars to heavy industrial equipment and shipbuilding. I think they deserve a little more respect than you have been giving them.

Hyundai Heavy Industries

Hyundai Motor Company

210delray

Sonata sales, 2005 through October 31: 32,323 (US made -- all 2006 models) and 62,973 (imported) = 95,296 total.

2004 through October 31, 2004: 92,454 (all imported).

(from Ward's Automotive Reports)

Not too bad, considering popular cars like the Mazda3 sold 83,811 and the BMW 3 series sold 86,085. Elantra was 101,348, the most popular Hyundai.

snakeweasel

Due to the apparent lack of build quality and quality checks in manufacture in the Sonata when I did a quick side-by-side comparison in a parking lot with my 05 Accord,

Lets see you did a comparison of just one car and made a judgment on the whole line. I will use that logic and claim that the Accord is a piece of junk since my neighbor didn't get to put more than six miles on his when exhaust fell off.

Anyways needless to say I don't think you are being unbiased here, but thats ok you like Hondas fine but don't trash something you haven't truely experienced.

However, for those who could care less about quality, perceived value or price, the Sonata will be a good choice,

It is also a good choice for those who care about getting a quality car without paying for a perceived benefit thats not truely there. Just as good as the competition less money, sounds good in my book.

because whatever the build poor quality and longevity of parts, all repairs are covered by the extensive guarantee that had to be put on the auto just to get any sales at all.

Yeah my wifes car and my car in 180k miles of under warranty driving had a total of zero repair work. FWIW the only time I had mine in the shop (other than regular maintence.) was at about 98k miles to have a digonostic run on the car just in case, they found nothing wrong. Still running great over 30k miles later.

bhmr59

Due to the apparent lack of build quality and quality checks in manufacture in the Sonata when I did a quick side-by-side comparison in a parking lot with my 05 Accord, I still feel that Honda is not a threat.

A Freudian slip?

snakeweasel

hyundai was shocked when they had to conduct a TWO-WEEK course for new hires that taught them left from right, how to read a torque meter and how NOT to cross-thread a bolt (public news column).

OK I will call you on this, could you cite a source and/or post a link please?

snakeweasel

sigh, maybe we have another Edsel on our hands?

Please explain to me how a model whose current model year is on track to out sell the previous model year by 25-30% can be compared to an Edsel?

bhmr59

There's a Honda forum, "Honda Accord Quality Control Issues."

Message #3345 posted by oldjoe manages to twist someone's complaint about the Accord's poorly aligned hood into an attack on Hyundai. oj asked the fellow if he was sure he was at a Honda store rather than a Hyundai store, claiming "all Hyundais fail the test but almost no Toyotas or Hondas."

But that's enough about oj's trashing everything Hyundai.

I'm going to go look for the forum dedicated to "Hyundai Sonata Quality Control Issues."

w9cw

I spent several months objectively looking at, and driving, the 2005/2006 Accord, 2005/2006 Camry, and 2006 Sonata. Interestingly, I found the the Sonata to have as good, or better, visible build quality than either the Accord or Camry. Seams and gaps were generally more uniform on the Sonata. In fact, every Camry LE I looked at had misaligned rear doors. If you don't have any preconceived notions, and objectively and carefully inspect the cars from all angles, the Sonata's sheet metal build quality is every bit as good, and often better, than the Accord and Camry. Just because it's an "Accord" or "Camry" does not make it infallible. This type of mindset is what eroded the build QC of Detroit products in the past.

backy

However, for those who could care less about quality, perceived value or price, the Sonata will be a good choice,...

Oh, puh-leeeze. This is one of those times that I wish Town Hall had a "roll your eyes" emoticon.

backy

In pother words, we produced an unskilled high-school graduate level in the area where Hyundai was building their plant.

Do you suppose they offer remedial spelling (or is it typing?) classes for these poor unskilled Hyundai workers in Alabama?

backy

I think Hyundai's battle is showing a good long term report card to the car buying public that says they're worthy of the buyer's dollar. Especially if a 5 year old vehicle is handed down to a teenager as their first car.

What a coincidence! My oldest son is driving my 5-year-old Hyundai to school now; when he turns 18, he'll get that one while I get a new car. Then my other son will get my '04 Hyundai when he turns 18--that car will be 5-1/2 years old then. My daughter will get my next car when she is 18, when that car is 6-1/2 years old. Maybe it will be a Sonata. It's nice to know these cars will still be under warranty while my kids almost finish college.

jojoe

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/recalls04/2005/honda_civic.html
http://autonet.ca/autonetstories/Stories.cfm?StoryID=11658
http://www.automotive.com/2005/12/honda/accord/recalls/index.html
Gee I thought the Hondas never had recalls and to think this is just a few of many.So I guess they aren't any better after all and all these problems for much more money!

jojoe

http://www.internetautoguide.com/auto-recalls/01-int/honda/

jojoe

Funny thing happened at the Mall yesterday. My wife and I parked between 2 Accords,one black and one grey.We didn't pay much attention to either since we were in a hurry,just knew they were Hondas.On the way back out we found the owners of both Accords talking and looking over our new 2006 Sonata.We approched our car and the folks started to chat with us.We were startled,these Honda folks were actually friendly and just average folks like ourselves.What even surprised us more,they actually liked our car and couldn't say enough about it.Imagine that,Honda owners that actually are normal folk and can have something nice to say about other folks and their car.I for one have decided to like Honda folks once again,can't let one or two be the example of all.

ctalk

Imagine that,Honda owners that actually are normal folk and can have something nice to say about other folks and their car.I for one have decided to like Honda folks once again,can't let one or two be the example of all

So basically what you thought before is if you're a Honda owner, you're suppositly different (in a negative way) I wonder where you got that from? (Most likely these forums :P) Well you have to remember, you can't take a small sample of the whole Honda owner population and assume they represent all of us. Of course there will be minority out there that believe their Honda's are the best.

Also, no one said Honda's were perfect (well some did :P ) No car manufacturer in the world can produce a perfect or problem free car. There will always be a recall, a lemon etc.

jksledson

I'm sorry, but I just have to laugh at this Honda Hysteria.

I had a 92 Accord DX - 2 recalls total

I now drive a 02 Accord SE - 2 recalls total

And even then, some of these are more of inspection type recalls rather than part failure.

Bad apples do occur, but the build quality, reliability, and long-term resale value can't be beat by similar vehicles. I once bought a different 92 EX for $6000 and sold it two years later for another $6000.

I hope Hyundai continues to progress with their vehicles. Competition is good! I just bought a new Sienna for the wife and find Toyota to have similar build quality.

bhmr59

I agree, MOST Honda owners are normal people and most of them like their Hondas, and with good reason Most of them do not trash other makes of cars.

It is one thing for a person to feel they bought the best car in a given price range (otherwise they would have bought something else) but it is another thing for that person to go out of his way to continually trash another competitor.

All of these cars are good. As ctalk said, none are perfect. Just check out the problems forums for each of the models under discussion. Some may be surprised to see that the real life experience is quite different from the public perception.

P.S. My '05 Sonata is the perfect car and is better than any other car on the road.

goodegg

Sure Hondas aren't perfect. They're just more not perfect than the other offerings. Gimme a break. Go to the auctions and see what cars move easiest and at the best prices. Accords. Even ones that have had recalls. Doesn't mean the others are trash. Just means Accords are desireable. And yes, there are people out there that aren't gonna buy a Hyundai. Or a Ford. Or a Kia.

People are human. With some cajoleing (sp?) they'll buy whats offered. It seems Accords take a little less convincing to be sold. And thats just the way it is.

snakeweasel

Sure Hondas aren't perfect. They're just more not perfect than the other offerings.

Are you aware that you just said Hondas are worse than the other offerings?

haefr

Good catch. I think leadfoot6 meant to say, "Sure Hondas aren't perfect. They're just less imperfect than the other offerings." And, that is an assessment I would agree with. On the whole, Honda owners are satisfied with their purchases as consistently referenced by "Consumer Reports despite the occasional "dogs". People aren't perfect, so it stands to reason that "things" designed and built by people won't be perfect, either. But, Honda's generally got a good track record of ordering recalls when they identify a consistent trouble pattern. Someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but of the six Hyundais I've owned since 1988, those that were recalled, were done so under government mandate, not as a voluntary corporate consumer-satisfaction policy.

atlantabenny

The Dec 05 C & D comparison shows that the Accord's forward gear ratios are numerically lower - significantly - than the rest of the cars,' while the final axle ratio is higher. The final results as to MPH/gear and MPG are, however, similar to the Fusion's, Sonata's and Camry's.

Interesting theories arise as to why and what the unintended results are - like less transmission noise & wear (good) and less internal lubrication (bad; oil jet kit comes to mind).

I'm curious to know the opinions of others, particularly the engineers, in this forum regarding Honda's thinking behind the ratio choices.

Anyone ?

snakeweasel

Good catch. I think leadfoot6 meant to say, "Sure Hondas aren't perfect. They're just less imperfect than the other offerings."

Oh I am sure but not that I agree with it. FWIW not that I trust anything they say but Consumer Reports does give the 2005 Sonata higher marks than any Honda. Plus J.D. Powers has given high marks to Hyundai and other non Japanese cars.

Someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but of the six Hyundais I've owned since 1988, those that were recalled, were done so under government mandate,

Not sure of your experience but of the 6 Hyundais my family has owned none were ever recalled.

backy

Hondas as well as Hyundais are involved in recalls initiated by the NHTSB. Also, both are involved in actions initiated by the manufacturer, e.g. a letter I received from Hyundai on one of my cars to inspect the exhaust manifold and extend its full warranty to 10 years, and the recent action by Honda to extend the transmission warranty on some of its cars due to a defect. What is your point?

goodegg

I'm test driving the Sonata and Fusion today. Drove a loaded Accord EXV6 Nav yesterday. Was an awesome vehicle. $30K tho. Pushing TL ($36) territory. Thought a loaded Sonata would be a comparable test. But how do I know what to expect from this vehicle in 4-5 years? I know the history of my Accord and Camry and they were "bulletproof". Never a single issue above normal maintenance items. A good rep has a basis for it. If the Sonata seems like a good value and a good car....wouldn't I be taking a chance buying one considering I know CamCords are excellent purchases?

pat

We are not here to trash the vehicles that we did not or would not buy, we are here to compare the features and attributes of all of the vehicles - the purpose being to help those making up their mind between them.

Anyone who is seriously looking for help in making a decision probably bailed out of here a while ago. Let's get them back.

How about someone address the post at the following link and we drop all of the "your brand is worse than my brand, no it's not, yes it is" type of postings?

atlantabenny, "Hyundai Sonata vs. Honda Accord vs. Toyota Camry vs. Ford Fusion" #917, 12 Nov 2005 5:20 am

pat

Thank you, this is exactly the kind of post we need here. You posted while I was composing.

bhmr59

I'm looking forward to your impressions of the Sonata & Fusion and how they compare to the Accord...drivability, comfort, acceleration, passenger & cargo room, build quality and "bang for the buck."

Testing the same model year of all three within a couple days will give you a better reading of likes/dislikes than if you had spread the test over weeks or months. While I think my '05 Sonata is great, the '06 is a different car. Testing cars of different model years isn't "apples to apples." In June a comparison of the new Sonata(06) to the new Honda (05) could be made because they were both the newest offering from each company. Now that both companies are offering '06's, it wouldn't be meaningful to compare different model years.

Have fun comparing them and keep us posted regarding your likes/dislikes.

motownusa

while i am not an engineer I read in the review that Honda's reasoning behind the gear ratio choices was to get the best of both the world. Great acceleration in lower gear plus lower rpm hence better fuel efficiency at overdrive. I think the Accord engine turns at around 1900 rpm at 60 mph which is more than enough for the oil to lubricate the parts.

scape2

is... reliabibility is becoming a non-factor in choosing vehicles these days. Reliabiltiy is way up across the board in the auto industry. Sure, Honda/Toyota were once the dominating lines when this factor was added in.. nolonger.. Value/Safety and refinement will become the leading player in purchasing a vehicle. Value is where Honda has lost its edge. Honda's are spendy for what you get for your $$.. Toyota is not too far behind. With Hyundia in the mix it forces Honda/Toyota to keep there big heads in check. Now with Ford able to offer a sedan that is sounding to be on par with Toyota/Honda for interior quality/fit/finish along with refinement and for less $$ who is to say what is going to happen in the coming years.. Good news for the consumer.. :shades:

alpha01

I disagree with the following statement regarding the interior quality materials part:

"Now with Ford able to offer a sedan that is sounding to be on par with Toyota/Honda for interior quality/fit/finish along with refinement and for less $$ who is to say what is going to happen in the coming years"

Reference the comparison tests of this months issues of MT and C/D, and then drive all four in the topic back to back. In terms of style, the Fusion's interioir has it, but it suffers ergonomically. For example- the Sonata's interior quality/materials is superior to the Fusions, IMO, and is more ergonimically sound. The Fusions awkwardly placed HVAC controls are a pain.

~alpha

haefr

Backy, my point was that a recall such as you referenced for the exhaust manifold on your Hyundai involved an emissions related component and the gub'mnt, not Hyundai, was very likely behind the recall. Honda's infamous transmission issues that involved recalls of the 2003 and 2004 model Accords were solely due to Honda's having stepped up to the plate voluntarily. My '96 Accord was recalled for a threaded engine balance shaft seal retainer screwed into the front of the cylinder block that might backout from vibration and lead to catastrophic oil pressure loss. Again, this was a Honda-initiated action, not a gub'mnt mandated campaign. In my case I was well over 35,000 miles past warranty, but there was no charge, and Honda additionally kicked in a free goodwill gesture oil and filter change at the time of the repair. It's that kind of customer satisfaction policy that I appreciate. I have no idea whether Honda's policies have changed, but I still consider a Honda Accord on my very short list for my next car purchase. To be fair, my Sonata has not been a troublesome car. I've only had one warranty claim (for a defective switch in the cabin dome light), but the selling dealer balked at even dealing with that until I brought Hyundai into the matter. Hyundai's initial reaction was that it was between me and the dealership because their franchised dealers are independent businesses.(!) I said the magic words, "BBB Arbitration", and their attitude then changed. But, why should there've even been the need to threaten arbitration over a trifling factory defect? I'm impressed with Hyundai but not in the direction I'd prefer to be.

backy

It looks like you don't know the difference between a "recall" and a "voluntary action" by an automaker. Let me try to help you here so we can keep the facts straight in this discussion. An example of a recall, i.e. initiated by the NHTSA, is the recall of nearly 1.1 million Accords for automatic transmission problems--NHTSA campaign #04V176000. An example of a voluntary action by a manufacturer is the voluntary action taken by Hyundai to inspect and, if necessary, replace the exhaust manifold on Elantras and Tiburons. It was not a recall, and was not mandated by a government agency as was the transmission recall.

The reason recalls are mandated by the government, through the NHTSA, is because they involve safety. Voluntary actions like Hyundai's exhaust manifold action don't involve safety but could have other negative effects.

BTW, more on topic, in the past five model years, 2002-6, the Accord has had 6 unique recalls by the NHTSA and the Sonata has had 5.

goodegg

Test drove the 2006 loaded Sonata and the 2006 Fusion SEL (no sunroof) today.

First the Sonata. Wow. What a nice car. Very impressed. Had no idea a Hyundai could be this together. Solid, quick, ergonomically nice, and a great sticker price. (the sticker looked like it was typed on a typewriter...) The controls all felt good, the interior was appealing (wood grain on the dash and shifter), good feedback thru the curves. A nice package. Couldn't get real cozy in the driver's seat cause the seat bottom wouldn't tilt up under my knees. Can they do something about that?

The Fusion was just OK. Nothing real special, although I like the temp and fan controls on the steering wheel. Felt good on the road. Responsive steering and acceleration. The seat back tilt was manual (lame) and the dash was a black lacquer(no) altho another one on the lot was wood grain (yes). The rear seats fold down from a lever in the trunk that's easy to reach - no stretching into the forward of the trunk to do this. All in all this car didn't seem to be a CamCord beater, let alone much of a competitor. Drive one and see what you think.

The Sonata is pushing CamCord allright. If the sticker were the same as those it'd probably wouldn't sell as much. But thousands less makes this car a contender.

My only reservation is about the long term performance of the car. What'll it be like with 70,000 miles on it? Remains to be seen. But I think the car is a winner. There. Said it. A devoted CamCorder likes the 2006 Sonata.

backy

Hyundai's slogan used to be, "Driving is Believing." It's different now, but I think you see that the old slogan still applies.

Re the driver's seat, I did notice when I sat in the Sonata with the power seat that the front edge of the seat cushion didn't come up as high (relative to the rear) as on Hyundais that have the dual-knob seat height adjuster. I like the front edge up high too.

Based on what I've seen from my two Elantras and testamonials from Hyundai owners who put more miles on their cars than I do, I think there's a real good chance the Sonata will hold up far beyond 70k miles, assuming it gets normal maintenance. The new engines are designed to last 300,000 miles without a failure of a major component (their old design point was 180,000 I believe) and the chassis and body seem solid. If a buyer has qualms about it, they could go for the extended warranty and have everything covered for 10 years/100k miles, and still save thousands over the CamCord.

I want to drive the Fusion or Milan too, but I'd like to wait for the 4 cylinder, since that would be the model I would most likely buy.

bhmr59

Interesting review. Also nice to see a "devoted CamCorder" willing to compare other cars with an open mind.

Regarding long term reliability after 70,000 miles, who knows? In fact, who knows from one car to another, even within the same make & model?

While initial quality doesn't necessarily guarantee long term quality, it should be a pretty good indicator of what to expect.

I think it's supposed to have been something like six years ago when Hyundai started making vast improvements. Maybe people with 5 or 6 year old Sonata's can share their experiences to shed light on your long term question.