Hyundai Sonata vs. Honda Accord vs. Toyota Camry vs. Ford Fusion

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Comments

  • godeacsgodeacs Member Posts: 481
    Not sure what you mean but price out a Honda EX V6 with a COMPARABLE Ford or Hyundai and the price difference is NOT that much! I know, I've checked - a Fusion with all the "bells and whistles" (if you can find one!) and V6 is over $24K, likewise, a Hyundai Sonata LX without all their rebates (which won't always be offered). FWIW though, I would def spend a bit more for a Honda because of it's "rep"/resale value than a Ford or Hyundai anyday....
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    Not sure what you mean about the price differential. Accord EX v-6 with leather (w/out nav) has MSRP of $27,850, Edmunds TMV of $26,679. Sonata has MSRP of $23,495 with TMV of $21,446 (less an additional $1,000 if financed through Hyundai for a price of $20,446).

    For a moment, let's forget about conveyence fees, taxes etc. Also, disregard dealer discounts if you wish and just compare MSRP.

    Assume most buyers finance their purchase...so, at MSRP you have Accord at $27,850 and Sonata at $21,495. To me, that $6000+ is more than a "bit more" for the Accord, especially as a % of purchase price. Want to consider dealer discounts? I think Hyundai dealers are more likely to offer better discounts than Honda dealers.

    Both Hyundai and Honda may change their current rebate situation in the future. A buyer has to measure the market at the time he is ready to buy.

    Something like 20 years ago, Honda's were really "hot"
    in CT and were selling for a lot more than MSRP and there was a waiting list. That's not the case today. As others have said, competition is great for the buyer.

    But don't get me wrong. If you think the Accord is worth paying an extra $6,000 for, buy it and hopefully you'll enjoy it.
  • danf1danf1 Member Posts: 897
    I'm impressed. I was expecting an oldjoe type report from you regarding the Sonata. I'm happy to see that you went into this drive with an open mind.

    As far as 70,000 miles from now is concerned, with Hyundai you are still under warranty.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Hyundai's rebate policy on the Sonata will likely change in the future, but it's not likely Honda will change its policy on the Accord. Honda has a long-standing practice of not offering manufacturer-to-consumer rebates, to help maintain resale values. I have read reports that they would rather take a drop in sales, as they have in the recent past with the Civic (previous generation), than offer rebates. I suppose if there were a huge drop in Accord sales, Honda would have to do something, but as long as buyers are willing to pay thousands more for the Accord than for competitors, that won't happen.
  • haefrhaefr Member Posts: 600
    "Let me try to help you here so we can keep the facts straight in this discussion."

    Thanks for the "help". Try to avoid the patronizing attitude bordering on the appearance of sarcasm. My understanding about the 2003 and 2004 Accord transmission problems is that the 5-sp transmissions in these vehicles are a brand new design. Their early troubles were addressed through a Honda "voluntary action" campaign, not an NHTSA recall. If you have contrary information specific to these 5-sp trannies, I'd like a link or an NHTSA camapign number. The Elantra exhaust manifold issue did relate to the component's being part of the listed emissions control devices. Since a cracked manifild can leak untreated exhaust gasses ahead of the catalytic converter and oxygen sensor, Hyundai's "voluntary action" that you implied, may have had a basis per an NHTSA (the possibility of toxic gasses entering the passenger cabin) or an EPA campaign - the jury's still out unless you have evidence otherwise.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I provided the NHTSA campaign number for the Accord transmission recall in my previous post. I meant no sarcasm--sorry you chose to read it that way. If I wanted to be sarcastic, I would talk about people who stick to an erroneous point even when clear evidence has been given to the contrary--and then don't have the courtesy to follow up on that information when it is provided at their request.

    While you are looking up the NHTSA campaign for the Accord, why not look for the campaign number on the Elantra's exhaust manifold? Then you can prove to yourself that there is no connection between the NHTSA and this voluntary action by Hyundai. And we can go back to talking about the four cars in this discussion.
  • haefrhaefr Member Posts: 600
    "I read in the review that Honda's reasoning behind the gear ratio choices was to get the best of both the world. Great acceleration in lower gear plus lower rpm hence better fuel efficiency at overdrive. ... I think the Accord engine turns at around 1900 rpm at 60 mph which is more than enough for the oil to lubricate the parts."

    Agree. Using C&D's figures per thousand RPM engine speed I got 1,887 for the Honda V6 and 1,923 for the Hyundai V6, respectively. (The real final drive ratios are a product of the axle ratio and the fifth-gear overdrive ratio - ~2.30, Honda V6, and ~2.40, Hyundai V6.) That's only a 36 RPM difference at 60 mph; 42 RPM difference at 70 mph. Honda may have under-engineered its AT's second cog, but the problems weren't due to the company under-reving the engine. The additional direct oil jet may be the only alteration needed to help that gear keep its cool, but if not, there's always the option of a larger transmission fluid cooling section in the lower radiator tank that would probably achieve any necessary additional cooling. Honda doesn't screw up very often, but this one bit 'em in the butt, bigtime.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Just to clarify, almost all safety recalls are "voluntary," in the sense that the vehicle manufacturer chooses to conduct a recall, without waiting for the government to take legal action. Sometimes, the manufacturer itself discovers the problem on the assembly line or through owner complaints or warranty claims. Other times, NHTSA receives enough complaints to initiate an investigation, which of course involves NHTSA contacting the manufacturer.

    Some recalls aren't official safety recalls, but "service campaigns" or the like, to fix defects that aren't necessarily safety-related. Then there are emissions-related recalls, in which the vehicle may not comply with emission standards. I believe most of the latter are "voluntary" as well.

    Very few recalls are "forced" or "ordered" by NHTSA (which requires a court order) against the manufacturer's wishes. The last one I remember was in the 80s for the infamous GM X car premature rear brake lockup issue, where GM prevailed in court. The federal judge in the case, Thomas Penfield Jackson, took an unconscionably long time to issue a ruling, and when he did, it was the wrong one, IMO.
  • haefrhaefr Member Posts: 600
    Just 'cause someone successfully earns a law degree and eventually gets appointed or elected to a judgeship, doesn't mean he really knows what he's ruling on, talking about, or is even honest.
  • chronochrono Member Posts: 149
    For all those questioning Hyundai's reliability .. check out this article ..

    http://www.northpeel.com/br/business/story/3065957p-3556772c.html

    Not bad for a Hyundai. :)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    1 million kilometers is not bad for any car! Note the regular maintenance. It confirms what many have said and I believe also, that just about any car today will last a long time if it is taken care of (although in my part of the world, the body may start rusting in 10 years or less due to road salt...).
  • inajoonginajoong Member Posts: 46
    (although in my part of the world, the body may start rusting in 10 years or less due to road salt...).

    mmm...
    I don't know...
    I saw a Scoupe the other day which has to be at least 10 yrs old and that thing had barely any rust at all, and i live in Chicago where all the streets are salted. ;)
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    anyone seen the 2007 Camry? It's on the Next Generation Camry thread. The Side profile looks like the Mazda 6 and the front looks like a Mazda 3. The front is a lot better IMO, it looks more classy and sophisticated. The back looks somewhat bland, but I'll have to wait for a clearer picture.

    I'm actually very impressed with how the front came out.
  • misterjjmisterjj Member Posts: 32
    I'm choosing between a Camry and a Civic... Yes, a Civic. I don't care much about mileage, power, driving dynamics, or any of that stuff since the car is really for my mother who will buy whatever I tell her to. I've got to co-sign the loan and eventually maintain the vehicle so I care about depreciation and maintenance.
    The Civic is a brand new design so I expect depreciation to be minor like other hondas. The Camry design is dated and will change next year, making this the last year for this design which will increase the rate of depreciation.
    But, the Camry is generally a bigger, more expensive car so I "think" that it will be worth more over the years but am not certain.
    But what about the additional cost of a Camry? Well, the Honda dealers in the area have market adjustments of $995 to $2495 above MSRP. :surprise: I suspect that I can get it for MSRP though. I can get a deal on a Camry right now that is roughly $500 more than the MSRP of the Civic.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    What part of the country are you from? Are these vehicles in such demand that anyone would pay above MSRP?

    If your mother is planning to keep the car for 5 years or more, don't worry about depreciation.

    The Camry at $500 higher than Civic's MSRP, if you have to pay MSRP for a Civic, appears to be a much better deal.

    Since you're looking at a Civic, take a look at a Hyundai Elantra and see how much you'll save up front. The same for Sonata vs Camry.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    The Civic is a brand new design so I expect depreciation to be minor like other hondas. The Camry design is dated and will change next year, making this the last year for this design which will increase the rate of depreciation.

    I wouldn't go for a first generation Civic since its a new design and there could be flaws Honda might have to fix. I also wouldn't go for the Camry since the new design is going to be out soon and I also find the Camry to be dated in many ways. Its competition is a already a step ahead. I would suggest you cross shop other vehicles (Accord, Elantra etc. *If you need suggestions, just ask)

    Also, does your mom care a lot about space? The Camry is a lot bigger than the Civic. But the Civic has a much more enjoyable drive.

    Depreciation is not a problem for most Honda's and Toyota's so I wouldn't worry about that.

    If you were to give me two choices to choose from (Camry and Civic) I would go for the Civic (personally) since it has more standard safety equipment (side curtain airbags, active head restraints) and the overall package is more appealing to me. If she wants a solid sedan, that is easy to maintain and does everything well. The Camry is still a good choice. I strongly suggest you check out other sedans before you make your decision.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "Not sure what you mean about the price differential. Accord EX v-6 with leather (w/out nav) has MSRP of $27,850, Edmunds TMV of $26,679. Sonata has MSRP of $23,495 with TMV of $21,446 (less an additional $1,000 if financed through Hyundai for a price of $20,446).

    For a moment, let's forget about conveyence fees, taxes etc. Also, disregard dealer discounts if you wish and just compare MSRP.

    Assume most buyers finance their purchase...so, at MSRP you have Accord at $27,850 and Sonata at $21,495. To me, that $6000+ is more than a "bit more" for the Accord, especially as a % of purchase price"

    Why are you comparing MSRP of the Accord to TMV of the Sonata?
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The comparison was MSRP of the Accord less rebates (which are 0) and MSRP of the Sonata less rebates available to all buyers ($2000).
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    I guess I wasn't clear on the Sonata number (had an interruption). I had to double check them because of the similarities in the hundreds, tens and ones columns.

    Without clouding the issue with TMV, we have Accord MSRP $27,850 (no rebates) for a net MSRP of $27,850. Sonata MSRP $23,495 ($1,000 rebate for all and $1,000 additional rebate for financing thru HMFC) for a net of $21,495.

    Run a TMV test for yourself...just be sure to consider the $1,000 HMFC rebate which isn't included in Edmund's TMV "because it isn't for all" (those who don't finance).

    Accord TMV $26,679. Sonata TMV (after financing discount) $20,446. No matter how you look at it, an Accord comparable to a Sonata costs over $6,000 more. Hyundai also offers an additional $1,000 rebate for current Hyundai owners regardless of which model Hyundai they currently own.

    Theoretically, I should be able to buy an '06 Sonata LX for about $19,446.

    Gee, we could be looking at a real world price difference of $7,200 or so!
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    To make the Sonata comparable in features to the Accord EX V6, you need to add the Premium Package, which makes the MSRP of the Sonata LX $24,945.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Unless of course you don't want a sunroof, changer, or subwoofer--which I wouldn't care for. BTW, it's $24,895. Less $3000 rebates for me and a nice discount puts the price at around $20k before taxes/fees. Still a huge difference compared to the Accord EX V6. Well, huge for me anyway.
  • allfiredupallfiredup Member Posts: 736
    Backy, I think we can count on the Azera being superior to the XG in every way imaginable. Everything the Sonata does well, the Azera will do as well or probably better. Although, I get a feeling the Azera will be a little softer around the edges than the Sonata given the segment.

    One thing is certain, it looks a whole helluva lot better than the XG. I think the exterior styling of the XG was its Achilles Heel. It drove pretty well and was an exceptional value (loaded for a low price), but it was a double bagger if you know what I mean. ;)
  • godeacsgodeacs Member Posts: 481
    Good analysis! I'm just going on what the local market bears here. I can get a Honda Accord EX V-6, MSRP for $24,500 at a "no haggle" dealer. The local Hyundai dealer will not discount his MSRP price of $23495 much so I only take off the $1000 rebate (only 1 I qualify for, don't count the add'l $1K for financing with them because I can get a lot better rate with my CU). That makes the difference of a little over $2,000, maybe $2500. I have test driven both - like the Honda a LOT better plus the reliability and resale value will make up that difference and then some. So yes, initially paying a little over $2000 is well worth it to me. Were it $6,000 like you say, I might have to reconsider, but it isn't.... ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    $2000 makes it a much tougher decision, and if you are going to sell the car after only 2-3 years the Accord is probably the way to go for nothing else than resale value. I wonder how many Sonatas that dealer sells given his Honda competition is heavily discounting Accords?
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    If you're insterested in the Sonata you should check with other dealers. The local dealer will still gladly service your car.

    Also, you can finance with Hyundai to get the extra $1,000 rebate and then refinance with your credit union. The higher interest rate that you would pay for only 2 or 3 weeks would be minimal. The Hyundai financing should net you a savings of at least $900, probably more.

    $3350 off MSRP on an Accord does sound like an excellent deal. Just check all the charges to be sure the price includes destination and any conveyence charges. Some dealers will low ball on the "price" and then load up the contract with other items.
  • zodiac2004zodiac2004 Member Posts: 458
    I don't care how good the new Civic is, it's not worth anywhere near a Camry-500.

    If the real-world price difference is indeed 500, that makes the Civic tremendously over-priced and the Camry a bargain.
  • haefrhaefr Member Posts: 600
    I agree that for my personal taste and desires, Civics, class leader though they may be, are simply too dear for my consideration. But a case could be made that any commodity is worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay for it. Honda's not having any trouble selling Civics, so...
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    cost of the vehicle does factor into the "resale value" of a vehicle. With the Sonata and now the Fusion coming Honda especially is going to have to lower its prices. In the Motor Trend shoot out the Accord was almost $4K more than the Fusion! Granted, because they could not get an LX V6 Accord for the $25,650! they claim! Yeeouch. If they would have put an LX v6 Accord into this competition it would have gotton stomped by the Sonata and the Fusion. LX has rear drums.. Still trying to figure out how The Fusion went from $22,360 jumped to $25,135 for price as tested in this article?? That is about a $3K jump?
    Check the net about new Honda Civic.. prices have jumped and some folks are peeved...
  • hotch41hotch41 Member Posts: 61
    I got a quote over the weekend of $300 over invoice ($23,441 sale price). I'm interested in this car because my 2005 LX V6 doesn't have the Vehicle Stability Assist (I should have waited for the '06). Anyway, the dealer is allowing $18,500 for my trade (I guess about right) that has 7,200 miles on it. Drive out is owing a difference of $5,491 with fees and tax. I would like to get the car since my 2005 is paid off and the '06 has the VSA. I'm debating if spending this extra money is worth it or I can probably get a loaded '06 Sonata for $2500 less than the '06 Accord. I went on an Electronice Stability Control website that had video scenarios with cars with ESC turned on and off. It made a believer out of me. Thank you.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Hi. This discussion is really more for comparing the specific features and attributes of these vehicles than for pricing information. You've done the right thing posting at this link hotch41, "Honda Accord: Prices Paid & Buying Experience" #10083, 15 Nov 2005 1:37 pm and I invite anyone who has some thoughts for you to click on it and follow up there for you.

    Good luck!
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Who's heavily discounting 06 Accords? I doubt that. They're one of the best selling and most reliable cars in the US according to CR today.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    HAve you driven and experienced a Fusion? I can assure you the Accord has minimal competition there. The mag may have said a few kind words for the Fusion - but that's expected. They're not gonna jeopardize ad revs from Ford.

    Drive one - no big deal, altho a decent ride.
  • oldjoeoldjoe Member Posts: 132
    JD Powers has totally ignored the Hyundai Sonata when it comes to picking a 2006 mid-size car of the year. In national ads run by Kia almost every night, it has been announced that JD Power selected the Kia Amanti as its pick for the Mid-sized car of 2006...the Amanti, given a one-star rating by Motor Trend as opposed to the 3-star ratings for the Toyota Camry and Hyundai Sonata was selected by JD Powers as Midsize car of the year. Of course Motor Trend gave the HONDA ACCORD A 4-STAR RATING...the highest available. All that hype and all that money spent on the Sonata....phhhhhhtttttt! Maybe the super low sales of the Hyundai Sponata influenced the JD Power decision!
  • oldjoeoldjoe Member Posts: 132
    South Florida sells Toyotas and Hondas either at MSRP or above for the most part. Looking at a Hyundai just is not on ANY senior citizen's list...the laugh factor really gets to the senior citizen crowd.
  • oldjoeoldjoe Member Posts: 132
    Wrong, the Sonata has a $2,000 factory rebate already, right after 2006 announcement.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Who is heavily discounting Accords? Look back a page or so for an example:

    godeacs, "Hyundai Sonata vs. Honda Accord vs. Toyota Camry vs. Ford Fusion" #955, 14 Nov 2005 11:50 pm
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    The Sonata debuted in the U.S. last spring--it took a few months for the big rebates to appear.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Since test driving a Sonata the other day I have yet to see one on the road. Nor a Fusion. They're not flying off the lots around here. Maybe they need a bigger rebate.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    General vehicle comparisons should be done with comparably equipped models.

    The 2006 Accord just came out. With most cars, it takes a bit for prices to settle. In general, Accords can be had for invoice, sometimes less. Honda likes to give manufacturer to dealer incentives that it doesn't publish to the general public.

    Give it a couple months, and you should be able to get a 2006 Accord EX-V6 auto for $25,000.

    I agree though, that the Sonata LX is an excellent deal, at $4000 less street price.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    Let me guess, you're on the East coast of south Florida.

    I live in CT and bought my '05 in Naples (where my parents live) last April. O'Brien Hyundai seems to do quite well selling Hyundai's. Naples is mostly senior citizens and mostly pretty comfortable to mega bucks. Yet Hyundai does well? Why? Maybe it's value. In my two full days in Naples, I saw more Hyundai's on the road than I did Honda's. Maybe it was just a case of where I was at any given time.

    "Looking at a Hyundai just is not on ANY senior citizen's list" may apply to your small circle of friends. The real world tells a diferent story. Do your friends enjoy getting ripped off by paying more than MSRP?

    Uninformed people, regardless of age, often laugh at those who are more informed.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,818
    funny thing is, i have only seen 1 sonata, 1 fusion, 0 '06 accords. i will see them all at the auto show next weekend.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    Just was checking on Sonata getting to dealerships...it was mid-May. The first rebates were Sept, or Oct (?).

    That's like any car's October introduction offering rebates starting in Feb. or March. I don't see anything unusual in that.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,602
    I've seen 2 or 3 Sonatas in the last month. Maybe I've seen more and not noticed them as Sonatas since, on the road, they do have a generic look, similar to Accord or Camry. It's hard to tell when going in opposite directions at 30 or more mph.

    On the other hand I haven't been aware of seeing any '06 Accords, Camry's or the Fusion. Maybe I went past some but just didn't notice.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    OTOH, the rebates on the Fusion ($500 general and $500 FMAC) began immediately upon release of the car.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    ...but no one seemed to pay attention.

    I don't have the numbers in front of me now, but here goes from memory. All numbers below are total US sales from 1/1/05 through 10/31/05, so most will be 2005 models, even for the Sonata, which came out in May. So of course you won't see many '06 Sonatas or certainly Fusions on the road. You can't tell '06 Camrys from the '05s.

    Sonata: 95K
    Camry: 335K
    Fusion: 4K (all 2006 models, sales started in October)
    Accord: roughly 280K (don't quote me on this one)
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    ...a loser. Or at least, Honda, Toyota, AND Hyundai have nothing to worry about. Didn't drive it, but sat in it, front and back.

    This was an SE V6 model. Six-speed auto -- nice, but you can manually select only D and L -- what's up with that? I hated it on my Sable when you could choose only Overdrive, 3, and 1.

    No stability control at any price. ABS is optional, while Accord, Camry, and Sonata have it standard. Rear head restraints are a joke -- too low for me, and I'm short. (They're just little foam extensions on the seat back - nonadjustable.) Maybe the higher trimlines have real head restraints?

    Some auto writer said the grille was billet aluminum. Ha, it's plasti-chrome, just like everyone else uses (except pickup bumpers, which use old-fashioned chrome-plated steel).

    The HVAC rotary dials are buried in the "hold" just above the center console -- that's real convenient!

    And C&D was right about the instrument cluster -- the painted circles at the base of the indicator needles draw your attention to the wrong end of the needles.

    Plus they're right about the hood: the gap between it and the grille makes it appear that it's not fully closed.

    The Mazda6, as everyone knows is the basis for the Fusion, looks much sharper than this car.

    The real joke is trying to palm this car off as a Lincoln, for just under $30K, same engine and all! (For that price, you do get ABS.)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Consider that there are about twice as many Honda dealers (about 1300) as Hyundai dealers (about 640) in the U.S. I couldn't find the number of Toyota or Ford dealers but I know they exceed Honda's numbers. From that perspective, Honda sells a ton of Accords per dealership (especially since few are fleet sales), but the Sonata's sales don't look as bad as they do by sheer numbers. We'll need to give the Fusion at least a full year to see how well it does. They were just trickling into dealers in October, no 4-cylinder automatics even available.
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    You have to drive a car to get its full story. I did. Read mine. I'll bet most folks spin a similar story once they compare this car to the competition.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Actually, I don't think the Sonata is doing that badly, considering that the Camry is the best-selling car and the Accord is no. 2 or 3. You're right about the Fusion -- it's too early to say how many they'll eventually sell.

    Lexus and Toyota, in that order I believe, sell the most vehicles per dealership.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Agreed, but I didn't have a chance to do so yet.

    But I'm not impressed so far.
This discussion has been closed.

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