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For example, the Fusion will offer AWD, a hybrid version, and possibly the 250 HP Duratec 35 in '07. The Duratec35 is hybrid capable but I think they're going with the system from the Escape last I heard.
So after all of that happens what does the Camry have on the Fusion? Stability control and about 18 HP, that's what. I'll take AWD and superior handling over both.
Well the verdict is out on the handling question because the new SE V6 Camry hasnt been tested yet. That's why I mentioned "..TBD."
My post was intended to stimulate the discussion and there is still a lot of unknowns ( handling for example ). It clearly is just my opinion but the conclusion is valid. It further stretches the envelope and we, mid-size auto buyers, all benefit no matter which model we prefer.
The Fusion's improvements will need to come soon or it will be 90's dated shortly.
The Accord does deserve a placein the FE ratings simply due to the HAH being available now. But long term I think it , and the Highlander Hybrid, are dead ducks. Too much power and not enough economy for the price.
V6 26-28 Combined.. 1st for the V6's"
????
2007 Camry LE 4 cyl. auto: 24/33 mpg, 158 hp
2006 Sonata GLS 4 cyl. auto: 24/33 mpg, 162 hp
2006 Accord LX 4 cyl. auto: 24/34 mpg, 166 hp
I agree that the Camry V6 is a step above the others in terms of power and mpg, but the volume 4 cyl. is nothing special compared to the competition.
'07 Camry 24/34 mpg, 158 SAE hp
'06 Sonata 24/33 mpg, 162 hp
'06 Accord 24/34 mpg, 166 hp
What I dont know for certain is ( is anyone else sure of it?) have the Hyundai and Honda hp ratings been adjusted for the new SAE testing procedures? I dont know the answer to that since I havent seen it stated anywhere.
OLD/NEW Rating system
Accord V6 250/244
Civic 145?/140
Odyssey 255/244
Ridgeline 255/244
Element/CRV 160/156
S2000 240/237
Acura RL 300/290
Acura TL 270/258
Acura TSX 215/205
Acura RSXS 210/201
Acura MDX 265/253
I assure you, Honda was one of the first to update its numbers. I cannot speak for Hyundai. I know they adjusted numbers a few years ago (like Sonatas from 181 to 170 hp) but I don't think that was a testing procedure as much as a Hyundai flub, from what I read. Hyundai even offered benefits to Hyundai owners affected by the number change (things like extra warranties, etc..))
thegrad
Would they have had the "new system" for measuring a year ago?
'07 Camry 24/34 mpg, 158 SAE hp
'06 Sonata 24/33 mpg, 162 hp
'06 Accord 24/34 mpg, 166 hp"
Err... you're posting mpg numbers for the Camry MANUAL, vs. mpg numbers for the Accord AUTO and Sonata AUTO.
What I posted is correct:
2007 Camry LE 4 cyl. auto: 24/33 mpg, 158 hp
2006 Sonata GLS 4 cyl. auto: 24/33 mpg, 162 hp
2006 Accord LX 4 cyl. auto: 24/34 mpg, 166 hp
For the manual, it is:
2007 Camry 4 cyl. manual: 24/34 mpg
2006 Sonata 4 cyl. manual: 24/34 mpg
2006 Accord 4 cyl. manual: 26/34 mpg
I hear ya. But do you really think Toyota is going to imporove the handling so much that the ride becomes harsher too? Wouldn't fare to well with their core buyers if you ask me.
The Fusion's improvements will need to come soon or it will be 90's dated shortly.
The AWD will be available later this year and the hybrid very well might be too. The Duratec35 availability is something I'm not very sure of though. I believe the Five Hundred and it's cousins will be the first cars to get it while the Edge and it's cousins will the the first "trucks" to get it. All for MY07.
The Accord does deserve a placein the FE ratings simply due to the HAH being available now. But long term I think it , and the Highlander Hybrid, are dead ducks. Too much power and not enough economy for the price.
I agree. Hybrids are all about saving gas right now and probably into the distant future. Once all the "I gotta have the first one" buyers get their Accords and Highlanders their end will likely draw near.
What I have read about the 2007 SE is that it will sit lower than the other model grades, with added bracing in the body (the rear seats will not fold on the SE, only a pass-through). It sounds to me as if Toyota is going to emphasize handling on the SE at the expense of some utility. That indicates to me a determination on Toyota's part to really offer a performance handling option to those who want it while still selling the soft ride to the big slice of the market who have shown that is what they want.
Yep. I believe that the new Highlander due out next year should have a 4c Hybrid option iso the 6c Hybrid that now exists. The 4c Hybrid would be even better on gas and less expensive.
Probably won't offer the 4 cylinder at all anymore. After all, none of the competitors in the segment offer a 4 cylinder right now.
The decision is probably already been made but I'd sure like to have some input into it.
Is this correct? I thought it was going to be for the 2008MY. And if it is, isnt that only in the SVT model or something. The difference is that the Accord 244 horse V6 and Camry 268 horse V6 will be available, for that model year, in all except the BASE versions of those vehicles.
~alpha
Note however the subtle movement away from the 4c slugfest. Now there is a head-of-the-class V6 and a 40 mpg hybrid with V6 power. Handling will have to wait to see if the stiffer, lower-riding SE is ready to take the lead as well. It's good to be a moving target.
Didn't know that but I'm still not buying into the concept of a sporty, better handling Camry (for '07). I don't think Toyota has the courage to do it.
Haven't driven one. I've never actually driven any Camry because the styling keeps me away. The '07 won't be any different for me because I already have a genuine Mazda and don't need a copycat. :P
What I have read about the 2007 SE is that it will sit lower than the other model grades, with added bracing in the body (the rear seats will not fold on the SE, only a pass-through). It sounds to me as if Toyota is going to emphasize handling on the SE at the expense of some utility.
An AWD Fusion SVT (or maybe only ST) will make the Camry SE look like a joke on the track. If they really want to make something special then they should try harder. It sounds like you are describing a slightly more powerful Accord but weight might cancel that power advantage out. I thought the goal was to BEAT the competition? Where's the AWD? Will it have larger wheels with real performance tires? Will it be able to beat a lowly Fusion or Mazda6 through the slalom or on the skidpad?
The numbers may make me eat crow when they come out for the SE, and I hope they do for the sake of everyone around here, but I'm not putting any faith in Toyota right now. I haven't been wowed by anything they make to date and don't expect to be anytime soon. One big reason I say that is because they don't have to wow anyone. On the other side, Ford and GM do.
Is this correct? I thought it was going to be for the 2008MY. And if it is, isnt that only in the SVT model or something.
I think you were referring to something I posted. I didn't say it would definitely be in the Fusion for MY07 but rumor has it that it will make it into the Fusion sometime within the next two years. AWD is a definite in for MY07 and a hybrid version should be too.
Sorry if I mislead you.
Exactly the same thing that Honda and Toyota did in the '70s when they were attempting to build their reputation.
For once stop being so ra-ra-ra on the imports and take a look at the Fusion without bias.
Also, it had been rumored that Toyota would be adding variable valve timing to the intake side, but that had not happened for the redesign... I wonder if its coming within the next year. (When Toyota redesigned the Camry for 02, it later added VVTi as a mid year change to V6 models starting with Jan 03 production).
Standard safety features are great, and Hyundai rocks for making ESC standard. But what does the Sonata's IIHS testing look like? The 07 Camry's? We will have to see who comes out on top. The last Sonata had seat mounted head and torso bags, and its IIHS side impact sucked.
Handling and ride comparisons remain to be seen, but it seems you are assuming Hyundai the victor... based on what?
Right now, without having tests of the Camry, or having driven it, or knowing the pricing, or knowing the crash test results of the Sonata... Id say you're a bit premature.
Styling is subjective, and I much prefer the rear styling of the Camry. I'm not convinced of the front end of the Camry SE, but like the sleek look of the LE, XLE, Hybrid, etc.
~alpha
This is a very valid point. But, at least they were standard equipment albeit perhaps not up to the task of the IIHS side impact test.
Toyota, on the other hand, did not offer any side airbag protection as standard equipment. The seat mounted airbags and side curtains were optional on the existing Camry, and there are plenty of current generation Camry's running around this country without this option. Without these options, the Camry rated Poor in the IIHS side impact test as well. So, I guess the Camry "sucked" also.
The new Camry is specifically addressing these problems with not only side curtain airbags, but high-strength and ultra high-strength steel in the side, sills, and B pillar area. The IIHS testing on the new Camry will be interesting. The manner in which the IIHS has been dragging its feet on testing the 2006 Sonata, or at least publishing the results, it makes one wonder if the 2007 Camry test results will be released first. The new Honda Civic's results have been out for over a month, and it's only been on the market since the Fall.
This is a very valid point. But, at least they were standard equipment albeit perhaps not up to the task of the IIHS side impact test.
Toyota, on the other hand, did not offer any side airbag protection as standard equipment. The seat mounted airbags and side curtains were optional on the existing Camry, and there are plenty of current generation Camry's running around this country without this option. Without these options, the Camry rated Poor in the IIHS side impact test as well.
The new Camry is specifically addressing these problems with not only side curtain airbags, but high-strength and ultra high-strength steel in the side, sills, and B pillar area. The IIHS testing on the new Camry will be interesting. The manner in which the IIHS has been dragging its feet on testing the 2006 Sonata, or at least publishing the results, it makes one wonder if the 2007 Camry test results will be released first. The new Honda Civic's results have been out for over a month, and it's only been on the market since the Fall.
I believe that the 05 Camry SE did beat the Mazda6 in the Motor Trend comparo, in the slalom.
I couldn't find the comparo you spoke about but I did find these:
Camry
Mazda6
As you can see the 6 is faster through the slalom and holds better on the skidpad.
I subscribe to MT. Which issue are you referring to?
2.) Sonata
3.) G6
4.) Altima
5.) Fusion
6.) camry
7.) Accord
My take on the 07 Camry is it still is conservative looking. I mean the talights look like they came off the 2002 Lexus Es 300 which are conservative looking. Toyota talkled about getting younger buyers with the current Camry and they didn't get the younger crowd to buy the current Camry(02-06.) I mean I remember all the talk about the 02 Camry and even a radio commercial having a voice over and which they say the Camry isn't bland anymore. For a few months after the 02 Camry restyle people thought Toyota had discovered style but after awhile it was the same normal Camry. I still think its conservative looking(07 Camry) and they won;t get the younger buyers that Honda, Nissan and even sometimes mazda wins over Toyota. Maybe if Toyota styles a knockout Solara they'll get the younger buyer to buy a Toyota.
Toyota talking about designing stylish cars is like GM talking about a turnaround plan. Its all just a bunch of talk in my opinion. Toyota said a year ago we will focus more on styling. Well, after the 06 Honda Civic came out they already had the 08 Corolla as a finished product. When Toyota saw the 06 Civic they had to put the 08 Corolla back in the styling oven for some exterior styling tweaks.
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Here they have to be aware of Honda but everywhere else in the world Honda is a motorcycle maker. It's only in the US that they have this premium reputation. In Japan they are 3rd.
Hyundai is and can be everywhere that Toyota is.
What if... there is a strategy already in place ( prepared several years ago ) here in the US to fight Hyundai tooth and nail if it comes down to an alley fight? Interesting idea for discussion.
Toyota is still allowing people the choice to decide on price or safety. It's a free country so these choices should be allowed still. I will estimate that the VSC/Trac package will be the first options offered on the new model.
Stability control and Traction control like the
Sonata?
Total of 6 to be exact. 7 if you count my Firebird,
8 if you count my used 67 T-bird. I gave Ford and Chevy enough chances. Never again. If you buy one, make sure
you make friends with the service manager, since you'll
be seeing him so often.
Toyota has always gone the route of letting the buyers decide on key options. Believe me there are a LOT of buyers who will rebel at the 'standard' features that they have to pay for in the new CE Camry.
'How much does this AUX feature cost and how does it work? I dont want it and I dont want to pay for it.'
'I've never been in an accident and I think all these airbags everywhere are unsafe. I dont want to pay for them. Why does Toyota force me to have them?'
This statement is not correct.
The EPA numbers are definitely exact.... if you drive exactly as they define the testing. What the Hybrids have brought out is that real world driving is a lot more varied than the EPA's parameters. Their tests also don't take into account certain conditions.
Essentially you have to live in San Diego in springtime and drive just under the posted speed limits for the entire time you drive, with no A/C or heater, and not make a lot of short trips.
These are pretty rigid parameters and most people dont match this type of driving. But it can be done.
Handling and ride comparisons remain to be seen, but it seems you are assuming Hyundai the victor... based on what?
The last Sonata was a design from the mid-'90s, well before the IIHS side impact test was designed. THAT is why it did not pass the IIHS side impact test. The '06 Sonata is a completely new design. So I am missing your point there.
I made no assumption that Hyundai is the "victor" in handling and ride, and in fact if you look at my post again I said nothing about how the Sonata compares to the '07 Camry in ride and handling. I can't make that comparison now because I obviously haven't driven the '07 Camry yet. Please don't put words into my mouth... I have enough trouble doing that on my own!
Well that's just nonsensical. But your opinion and right to express it is certainly valid. Would you have any facts to confirm this sudden situation?
As I mentioned above.. if there is an alley fight between Hyundai and Toyota?
Since most people are reporting in real world experience getting much lower than EPA estimates I would say no they are not exact.
Essentially you have to live in San Diego in springtime and drive just under the posted speed limits for the entire time you drive, with no A/C or heater, and not make a lot of short trips.
Essentially if you put it in neutral and coast downhill you can get over 50 MPH in a Hummer. My point is if the testing doesn't provide real world results then the tests are not accurate and are just a guestimate.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That's an incorrect interpretation.
The testing doesnt cover a wide enough range of driving conditions. That's all. If you match their criteria you will match their results.
But yes, for the average Joe who doestn drive the way the EPA does its tests they are approximations at best.
Yes, both the Sonata and Camry have side airbags and curtains standard. And Hyundai should be lauded for having ESC standard as well. But, for me, I'd rather have a vehicle that does well in the side impact test. We shall see if both perform at the top of their class.
~alpha
Ford wagon, new tranny at 40K, out of warranty
Ford Probe, new engine 24K, in shop for 6 weeks!
Another Ford Probe, Turbocharger - dead at 38K
Daughter's Ford Explorer, 3000 miles, burned up, totalled,
Ford said, too bad, see your insurance.
Ford wagon, vibrating driveshaft, 12 visits to dealer,
no help, driveshaft redesigned in next model year, but,
still no help. Had to learn what speeds to avoid.
Ford Thunderbird, 50K, every seal blew in engine due
to faulty PCV valve, Ford OEM. No help from Ford.
Glad someone was lucky though, but I guess when you
sell that many cars, someone wins the lottery.
And I service my cars, or get them serviced at
better than severe maintenance schedules.
Hope you get lucky with that first year Fusion.
I walked out the door across the lot and into the Toyota store and bought a Camry for ~$1000 under sticker. Big deal then. I've never set foot in a Honda store since.
You may have noticed that there is a lot of third-party opinion that ESC does significantly help reduce the risk of an accident. So given the choice of a car with ESC or one without, I like my odds better with the ESC.