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The Sonata has, though--and was tops in its class, better than the '06 Camry.
Huh???
Now as regards the '06 Camry vs '06 Sonata. That's not quite as favorable for the Hyundai as you stated above.
As a matter of fact it's a little embarrassing. see link below.
http://tinyurl.com/drga9
Now as regards the '06 Camry vs '06 Sonata. That's not quite as favorable for the Hyundai as you stated above.
As a matter of fact it's a little embarrassing. see link below.
http://tinyurl.com/drga9
The above link shows the saftey rating for an 05 Sonata not an 06.
Hyundai Sonata redesigned for 2006; to be tested in late 2005. 2006 Kia Optima has not yet been redesigned; 2005 model's ratings carry over to 2006.
Based on their valuations the 2005 ratings are the 2006's. If the new ratings end up higher it's good for the drivers but at present the '06 is not at the top of the class and ahead of the Camry as was stated, in fact it's the opposite.
While the nicely designed Sonata has gotten good reviews and is increasing acceptance, this one vehicle cannot bring it to No 1. There is just not enough volume. Hyundai will have to be in every segment, trucks, SUV's etc in a huge way. Right now there are no Hyundai trucks or big SUV's in the market in this country for example.
Midsize car buyers are easy to influence relatively speaking. Truck buyers.. now that's a whole 'nother story as they say.
There are millions more people who wouldn't buy a Hyundai than there are that wouldn't buy a Toyota or Honda.
Far fetched? Probably. But China is 5 times bigger than the US and India is 3 times bigger... and presently noone drives there. What potential!!!
New Headline in 2010.
But, they would had bought the Hyundai stock if they had known the following:
Hyundai Motor Company was named the PricewaterhouseCoopers and Automotive News 2005 Global Automotive Shareholder Value Award winner, underscoring Hyundai’s emergence as a top-tier global automaker.
Presented at the 30th Automotive News World Congress in Dearborn, Mich., the award recognizes automotive manufacturers, suppliers and retail distributors with the top shareholder return.
According to the PricewaterhouseCoopers Shareholder Value Index (SVI), Hyundai has posted shareholder returns of 80 percent and 329 percent over the past one- and three-year periods, respectively. The SVI is accepted as the standard measure of relative shareholder value in the automotive industry. Hyundai also received this recognition in 2003.
That's an incorrect interpretation.
The testing doesnt cover a wide enough range of driving conditions. That's all. If you match their criteria you will match their results.
But yes, for the average Joe who doestn drive the way the EPA does its tests they are approximations at best.
Actually, I achieved 36.43 mpg in my 2006 EX Accord 4-Cyl Auto on a trip where I averaged 75mph (cr.control set on 75). I didn't have the air on, just the heat and headlights. Alabama has rolling hills which I traversed for 255 miles on that trip. EPA numbers ARE achievable.
I will say, that on average around town with a 2:1 city/highway ratio (10 miles in town with 9 stop signs vs. 5 miles of 60mph highway) I get an average of 28 mpg. I don't drive with a heavy foot, but it isn't uncommon for me to rev over 4,000 rpms when passing or merging, so it isn't exactly babied either.
Perhaps I have an exceptional car compared to others?
thegrad
"So given the choice of a car with ESC or one without, I like my odds better with the ESC."
I would agree. All I'm saying is that if the Sonata tests in the IIHS side impact as did former versions, I'd rather have a vehicle that has better actual protection ratings, than a lower likelihood of significant injury in single vehicle crashes. Its definitely personal priority, but passive saftey features are mine, then active (like ABS, ESC, etc).
~alpha
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That's quite possible since it's rated for 34 mpg and driving over 70 consistently seriously deteriorates the mpg ratings. But it's not surprising that a lot of people obtain near or above EPA HWY ratings because there is really only one way to cruise at 55-60 mph.
However CITY driving is an entirely different issue. Is it
stuck in traffic downtown; rolling through your neighborhood; going stop sign to stop sign to stop sign in a residential area; or cruising in heavy traffic at 30 mph on local streets?
It's why thre is such a large variations in the real world city vs EPA city.
One very useful feature that the hybrids have is the ability to see instantaneously what your FE rating is at any time.. and to record it over time. This gives a real record of what is happening.
Is this the same kind of award one gets when they hire a company to churn out a self-serving accolade? Yes. Is it the kind of award a NYSE listed company that reports to the SEC and follows GAAP can claim? No.
Hyundai's still smoke and mirrors when it comes to finances. You don't know where they stand, and if they told you it couldn't be banked on. They may be making money, they may not, but they're buying US market share with the Sonata.
A big part of it has to be the tall 5th gear. With, say 10% more throttle used I get more like 20% more speed. Over 80mph, drag coefficients kick in and I usually get closer to 33mpg. At 75mph I roll at EXACTLY 2,500 rpms. In my 1996 4-speed Auto, I must stay under 63mph to keep the same RPMS. 75 mph spins it to just over 3,000 rpm. The best I've ever averaged in the 1996 was averaging about 65mph on generally flat terrain. I managed 33mpg (rated 23CTY/31HWY). I'm happy with my purchase, needless to say.
If you read my post that you replied to, you'll see I was talking about the NHTSA ratings, which have been published for both the '06 Camry and the '06 Sonata, and the Sonata did much better than the Camry there--all five stars on collisions vs. 5/5/4/3 for the Camry:
http://www.safercar.gov/Index2.cfm
These tests were done on cars with the standard configuration of airbags on both cars. A little embarrassing for the Camry, especially considering the NHTSA tests are not as severe as the IIHS tests, wouldn't you say?
Note that the NHTSA does report a head injury score in their crash test results, and notes cases with a "safety concern" alert where there is extraordinary head trauma, e.g.:
http://www.safercar.gov/NCAP/Cars/3449.html
http://www.safercar.gov/NCAP/Cars/3487.html
While this is not as good as the IIHS method, at least it gives buyers a heads-up that there is more to the results than the "stars" indicate.
Also, I noticed that the '06 Sonata got better (lower) scores for head injury on the NHTSA side impact tests than the '06 Civic and '06 Jetta (much lower than for the Jetta in fact). I think this is bodes well for the Sonata, because the Civic and Jetta both scored "Good" in the IIHS side impact test.
Sorry no credence whatsoever on this point. None.
I think we can safely say there is almost zero chance the '06 Sonata will have the same IIHS side impact test results as the last-gen Sonata that was designed in the mid-'90s, years before the IIHS side impact test came out.
Yes I will go along with this. the '06 Hyundai will likely do very well on the IIHS test when it's reported. Now the IIHS approval is a moving target if you will. It's two former best picks last year ( the Camry and Accord ) are now middle of the pack also rans because of the 'whiplash minimization' criteria.
Essentially with new technology all vehicles are 'good' in frontal impacts. Most vehicles with high strength steel in the safety cage and properly-performing side airbages are 'good' in side impacts. Now the main criteria 'up or down' is whiplash minimization.
You are entitled to your opinion, but thanks for recognizing and admitting that you snipped my comments out of context and made it seem as if I were referring to the IIHS tests.
You are a little off base. Spend a week talking to the public and you will find it's near 60-70%. But.. I've mentioned this several times here, there are still a good number of buyers who express the same sentiment as you. Who cares?
Yes, I recognize this, but does it not beg the question-why the hell not just include it in the dang STAR RATING?
Also, "I think we can safely say there is almost zero chance the '06 Sonata will have the same IIHS side impact test results as the last-gen Sonata that was designed in the mid-'90s, years before the IIHS side impact test came out". I think thats a fair assumption, but it is still an assumption nonetheless.
~alpha
Consumers don't have to wait 5 years. They can buy that vehicle today...it's called a Hyundai Sonata!
After the dust settles, A new 2007 Camry LE model with auto trans and 4 cyl fully equipt. will be in the $18000 to $18500 range vs a Sonata with all rebates an similar equipt. going for around $16000.
You originally said you were looking at the '07 Camry for a March purchase. That is why I said there would be at least a $5-6k difference. The dust will not have settled by then. Over time, the Camry's price will come down, but I still think the difference with the Sonata's price will be substantial.
For example, from the Sonata Prices Paid discussion I know that several people have bought a Sonata LX (that is with V6 and leather) for under $18k + T&L. What would a comparably-equipped '06 Camry go for? The closest trim is the XLE V6. Invoice on that car is $25,704. Subtract the $500 rebate and it's just over $25k, assuming you can get one for invoice before rebates. That is $7000 more than the Sonata LX, which has heated seats (need nav on the Camry for that) but not a moonroof. You could add a CD changer and moonroof to the Sonata for about $1200 more. So that is in the $5-6k range I noted. Do you think the '07 Camry will cost a lot less than the '06? I suppose it's possible that with more standard features, like side bags, the price with those features will go down. But I think it will be some time before you will see rebates on '07 Camrys or be able to buy them for invoice less rebates.
P.S. On the 4-cylinder fully equipped '06 Camry LE, the invoice price is $20,452, so with the current $500 rebate it would be nearly $20k. That is with VSC and side bags. The comparable Sonata GL has an invoice of $17,957 and $1500 in general rebates ($1000 additional rebate for Hyundai owners). So the difference there is $3500-4500, although I have seen reports on the Sonata Pricing discussion of Sonata GLs for under $15k + T&L.
may be bankrupt sooner than 5 years down the road.
Wonder what happens to the Fusion warranty then?
a dealer willing to sell a Toyota at anywhere near
invoice. Which is probably why I have only owned one
in the dozen or so cars I have bought. I would think
the actual difference between sales prices would be
much greater than what you are saying. I would guess
the differnce between a top of the line Camry vs top
of the line Sonata would be close to 10K!
Very true. Now they have to do it for 10+ years... and the market has to recognize it... and Toyota, GM and Ford have to ignore Hyundai as they grow unfettered..
For those who feel Honda nd Toyota will forever dominate the auto world..
Notice above I left out Honda. Except here, in this specific market, Honda is a non-factor anywhere. They will never see Hyundai blow by them it'll be so fast.
Toyota has already dismissed Honda/Nissan/VW/GM/Ford et.al. and is focussing only on Hyundai. See all the press reports this past year. OK dismissing is too harsh. Phrase it '..concentrating mainly on Hyundai..'.
If you dont think Toyota sees how blind Detroit was to it's growth here you're naive. Toyota rarely misses anything. There is already a potential sales strategy in place here to fight Hundai tooth and nail on price and cut the hearts out of all the others. Hyundai is not an immediate threat to the Big 5 here for the next 10 years. They don't have enough vehicles and enough production volume. Now China/India and the Far East. There they may be #2 soon.
You've owned 10 cars and never been able to move a Toyota dealer off sticker? There is something wrong here. We sell 300-400 new vehicles a month and prolly 200+ are just above or just below invoice. You havent tried very hard.
Oh, BTW see my post above about fighting Hyundai.
They have only one plant here and what they will find with an excellent vehicle, assuming, and a killer price is ... they will sell out this one solitary plant in a heartbeat. Then what? Management will look and see a demand for 500K Sonata's and a production of 300K+. Hmmm let's make some money on this situation, increase prices. It's basic economics. The Koreans arent fools and they are doing everything that Toyota did. Buy into the market prove yourself and then raise prices and make some money.
Auto plants arent mushrooms they dont come up overnight. Before this plant they were only importing maybe 60K Sonata units annually? That's a trickle and besides they need the Korean-built Sonata's for the much larger Chinese market. Hyundai needs 3-4 more plants the size of Alabama ( minimum 10 yrs ) and they need a full line of trucks and a full line of SUV's and all of them have to be perfect for at least 10+ years.
Then they will be equal to Toyota today. And while all this is going on... Toyota, GM, Ford et.al have to ignore Hyundai. That's not going to happen as you can see from the press already.
may be bankrupt sooner than 5 years down the road.
Wonder what happens to the Fusion warranty then?
Nothing. Ford does not close it's doors. It reorganizes.
Do you know anyone personally who has filed for a BK? Did they die or lose their job? Nope,all that happened is that all their debt was cancelled and all the money they earn at work is theirs to keep now.
What are the sales figures that are representative of this "great sales slide?" When did Honda become a "status" brand as you say? It sure isn't to me, and neither is Acura. Lexus is getting there though. Keep in mind, every car company has good and bad dealers. My mother tried to buy a Taurus back around 1990. Four hours into talking with the man he still hadn't given her a price! He said that "she should go home and discuss this car with her husband, and then maybe the both of them should come back tomorrow after you've slept on it." It wasn't his place to decide how she should buy it, and because she was a woman, he wouldn't even treat her like a decent person and give her a price. She walked out of that dealership (Long-Lewis Ford) and back to her regular Honda dealership. She bought Honda number two that day.
BTW, my father tried buying a Mustang convertible from a different dealership (Adamson Ford, Birmingham) and couldn't because the salesman wouldn't talk about purchase price, he kept pushing a lease idea on him ("The Plan", as Ford called it). Dad left, and bought a Chrysler convertible (another mistake, HA).
Individual dealers can ruin a car company for individual customers, which is the point you are making here, right?
Also, dealers tend to need more than one model to keep its sales. Look at Saturn, and Honda. I remember the days when you could only get to Hondas, a Civic or an Accord. I believe Saturn offered only one model (S-Series, right?) for a while. That didn't last, as the market demanded more from one dealer. Hence the VUE, L-Series, and now, the Relay. Soon to come are a couple of nicer entries, the Sky and the Aura.
Um, why is that? I'm sure you, a Toyota salesperson, would like buyers to hold off on buying these quality, reliable Korean cars like the Sonata for another ten years. But I can't think of another reason to do that. The Sonata is here today as a competitive offering in the market, available at a much lower price than its competition and with a much longer warranty. Why wait 10 years?
Also, in your later post there are a couple of inaccuracies: the previous Sonata was selling at about a 100k/year clip in the U.S., not 60k; and Hyundai doesn't need to worry about funneling Sonatas produced in Korea to China because they already make Sonatas and other Hyundais in China. So if U.S. demand outstrips the Alabama plant, they can fill in with Korean-made cars until they can expand the Alabama plant (note that is what they did last year while the Alabama plant was ramping up).
I agree the prices of the Sonata and other Hyundais will head upwards--it is already happening! Witness that the '06 Sonata costs more than the '05, then there is the Azera that can top $30k, and the new Accent can top $15k. Then the new Entourage will be here, and that will be in the mid-20s to over 30k. And the '07 Santa Fe and Elantra will be upsized and going upmarket, with a corresponding increase in price. More and more, the story with Hyundai will not be just the Wal-Mart style "always the low price", but will be a story of value: cars with the quality of their competition, but more features for the money.
Simply put the market forces eat away at a single product, unless it's so special it has no competition - Prius for example.
If Honda only had the Accord there would be many buyers coming in wanting the top quality of a Honda but they will or can only pay $15000. The Base Accord is ~ $18500. Does the Sales Mgr tell this buyer 'We cant help you go over to the Toyota store and get a Corolla. Nope, he bites the bullet, sells the Accord at a loss, reports it to the owner who reports it to Honda who sees its dealers taing losses on its one model, so Honda helps out by issuing incentives to all the dealers to breakeven at least.
Now Honda is losing money possibly by making just this one model whereas if they could offer this $15000 buyer a world class new Civic - and make money on that - then both products are profitable.
Even in with a 'perfect' vehicle, the Camry and Accord have been close for 10 yrs, suddenly a Sonata appears and there is extreme pressure on the lower end models.
Also sales is entirely dependent on numbers, numbers, numbers.. the more people you see the more you will sell. In every sales operation in every product it's the same. If you only have one vehicle in your lineup you will only get specifically those shoppers in your store. You will never get any 'cross-shoppers'. You cant imagine how many people come into buy Camry's and end up with Avalons, Highlanders or used cars.
The Sonata seems to have turned a corner. A limited market segment is impressed. The bulk of the market is not, as you can observe here. It will take 10+ years to break down these prejudices. They will have to produce bulletproof Sonatas, etc just the way HonYota did all through the 90's. But they still dont have enough volume to crack the Big 5 here... even if they fill Ala and import 100K units.
The buying segment above the midsize is a much smaller segment so if the Azera is perfect it will reach maybe 50000 buyers. The segment below the Sonata is ultra competitive with at least 4 world class vehicles, Corolla, Civic, Mazda 3 and Jetta. These buyers are even more fanatical than the family sedan buyers. Elantra over a Jetta??????.. over a Civic????????? Now if they can make an Elantra that is as fun to drive as a Jetta/Civic and sell it for $12000. Ok it's got a shot.
IMO Hyundai will do pretty well if the Sonata and the next iteration are bulletproof. Their smaller SUV's have promise but the RAV and CR-V arent standing still. This success is not certain at all. Oh btw there are auto makers in Detroit too.
Overall though they have no trucks, minivans, big SUV's and the Sonata may max out at 400K units or so. Where can they grow? Their potential to crack the Big 5 is limited.
Hyundai already makes an Elantra that is as fun to drive as the previous-generation Civic. It's the Elantra 5-door, it's available for under $12k (my GT model was $13.2k loaded with every option), and I would take it any day over the '01-'05 Civic. Both cars were introduced in late '00, so that is why I compare them. There is a new Civic now of course, and there will be a new Elantra this fall, so then it will be fair to compare the Elantra to the new Civic. But why should this new Elantra cost $12k when a well-equipped Civic or Jetta costs $18k? I think $15-16k for the new Elantra, with all its standard safety and convenience equipment, its interior room, and its warranty, will be attractive enough.
Also, as far as growth, the Entourage minivan (with the Azera's powertrain and standard power doors among other features) is coming soon, as is a new big SUV, a new 6-passenger cross-over vehicle, a new compact hybrid, a new 3-door compact, a new 7-passenger Santa Fe, and the new Elantra. This looks like a lot of growth potential to me.
BTW, the Jetta is far from "world-class" IMO. It won't be world-class in my book until its reliability improves. And the Corolla won't be world-class for me until Toyota figures out how to design it so that medium-sized adults like me are comfortable driving it. The Civic and Mazda3 are the only two "world-class" compacts I see out there today. I think the next Elantra has a great chance to the the third.
As far as the market accepting the Sonata... have you seen all the posts in the Sonata discussions about people buying a Sonata instead of an Accord or Camry? Perceptions are turning around. I don't think it will take 10 years for general perception to change. I think it will happen before the EOL of the current Sonata.
Since I got interested in the Sonata almost a year ago (bought an '05 in April) I've noticed quite a few on the road. Maybe I just didn't notice them before but it seems that the prior body style has done quite well in northern Fairfield County, CT.
The new Elantra is going to have to do at least as well as the Sonata in everyway and be equally as bulletproff in the way the Corolla and Civic are. Thus far it has not. You mention a lot of 'hope' throughout your text but other than the Sonata noting is definite and certainly the market hasnt accepted it....yet.
While your opinion is valid the market still considers the Corolla the best compact vehicle ( now Civic? ) with the Jetta, 3, Focus and Civic the most fun to drive. the Elantra, Sentra, Cobalt are also rans. That's a lot of catching up to do.
Hyundai minivan. It better be very very low in price and absolutely perfect in every way. It's a vehicle nearly 100% purchased or decided upon by women. If the man loves it and the woman hates it .. it doesnt get bought. Here there are really only 3 competitors to overcome.. the one who invented the segment, then the Odyssey and then the Sienna. Tough crowd there. It might take up the slack from the absence of Ford tomorrow. There's good timing there. GM's are an abomination, they may soon die also.
I won't comment on the minivan thing since this IS a mid-sized car discussion, except to say that I saw the Entourage's cousin the Sedona yesterday, and I think they will be very competitive with the DC vans, Ody, and Sienna IF they drive well.