want to see American industry fade away and die, the free-market person in me says that the Bush admin should not give a whit about Ford or GM even if they did contribute to the Republican party...if they can't compete in the marketplace than someone should buy them...there is nothing sacred that says Ford should be run by the Ford family except sentimentality, and there is no room for that in business unless you are making a profit...
Their money should be invested in product that people want not lobbyists to give them protection from Toyota...all that shows is that the company is crippled and does not deserve to live...they are not too big to fail, unless we want the feds to own all the means of production in the US, and I think that is fascism...
Just like a heroin addict must go thru h*ll to dry out, so must the automakers to learn that no one will bail them out...otherwise, we are really treating them like babies, while they sit there and act like magnates...
The downside of free market capitalism is that some companies fail...that is the part that no one likes to admit...it teaches companies that they cannot get complacent or they will die...and the workers who tied their fortunes to a dying company will simply have to start over in their lives, as there is no guaranteed employment, period...
When workers leave voluntarily, we assume they are improving their lives...when workers are disgorged against their will, we also assume they will improve their lives, just not in the way they intended...
Capitalism involves risk, and the Ford family seems to be out on a never-ending drunk binge, wondering why everything is fuzzy...sobering up can be a serious reality check...
Hmm...people DO want $19,000 Civics though, don't they? They also want $18,000 Calibers (not a great example because they just started a small cash incentive, but still it's nothing like what Ford needs to move Foci), $18,000 Mazda3s (the Focus's relative), and very shortly they will want $18,000 Sentras (has been entirely reengineered, to be available this fall), and you can bet that when Toyota finally gets around to introducing the redesigned Corolla in 18 months, people will want $19,000 versions of that one too.
Even the Cobalt sells for more than the Focus, as does the Elantra. The Cobalt is not a notably better car, and I am talking about the LAST-gen Elantra there. The new one has just arrived. Which will sell for $15-17K in typical price-undercutting fashion for the Koreans.
So will Ford ever have the courage to bring products to market that are truly competitive and potentially offer high profits per unit? All the press folks seem to think an awful lot of the European Focus.
Next year's "let's stick a new front clip on the same old pig and call it all-new" update is not going to cut it. Meanwhile, they say MAYBE we will get the C1 (Euro) Focus in 2010, and maybe the next-gen Fiesta in 2011? Do they hope to sell any cars before then?? :-/
They are "doing a GM" with the Focus - cheaping out on the domestic-branded version of a car to make the imported versions (Mazda3 and Volvo S40) look better or more special or something.
What's wrong with the Focus goes straight to the heart of what's wrong with Ford - no management vision, and no guts to break the mold of the last 20 years, which has dictated rock-bottom prices, huge cash back, and just-OK products in many cases.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Ford absolutely does not need a $19,000 Focus. Now if it was a different kind of vehicle, like a CUV or something that would be a different story, Ford tried many times and never sucessfully brought a car here from Europe. Remember the Mondeo to Contour? or the Merkur's?
The Contour was to small and priced 2 close to the Taurus, hence a big FLOP!
The Fusion may be based on the Mazda6 but it is Ford in execution. It adds size over the Mazda6 and costs much less.
Non-luxary European cars from other makes aren't exactly doing so well here either. VW's numbers make Ford look like Toyota in case you didn't notice. And you don't even want to talk about the fate of the rest of the European Non-Lux brands. See any Renualts, Fiats, Pegouts, Citreons, Opals, etc, for sale in the States lately?
I'm sick of people saying that the Ford vehicle should be more like this or more like that... People who like Toyotas, should go buy Toyotas!
What Ford needs to do is to capture the people who buy a Toyota because there is nothing else out there they like better.
Toyota concentrates on being the Vanilla Ice Cream of car makers, and while Vanilla is the most popular flavor, its not the only flavor.
So if I hear you correctly, Ford should try to continue to be the discount brand of America.
Even though the Koreans (and the Chinese in the not-too-distant future) continue to undercut them, and even Chevy and Dodge a lot of the time.
And because that has worked so well for them so far.
When you have these "legacy costs", how can you afford to try to make discount prices your strategy? Seems like you should try to up the quality, up the desirability, and steal customers from the competition that are accustomed to paying higher prices for top-notch product.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think Ford is being smart with the Fusion/Mazda6, Focus/Mazda3/Volvo s40, and 500/Montego/Volvo S80. They are platform sharing and applying to nitch markets, taking a page from the Chrysler workbook. Overall sales numbers don't mean so much to Ford anymore, its not about growing market share as much as being lean enough to turn a profit with what they have (like BMW). The days of selling 1,000,000 Mustangs or LTDs a year are gone. If you get 200,000 out the door you are doing fantastic. Having more than one car in the same category gives choice. Sharing platforms saves development costs and allows the makers to offer more choices at a lower cost (Like the 300C,Charger,Magnum, the last MBZ E320, etc for RWD, and the Neon/Caliber/Compass/etc on the FWD).
What is Ford? (Disclaimer - I've been a Ford guy all my life, my Dad was a Ford guy, and he raised me that way.)
Today, I don't think Ford knows what they are. As for:
Give me an Avalon over a Five Hundred - any day
Up to this year, I would disagree. Now, however, the Avalon is special. Previously it WAS a 500.
Ditto a Tacoma over a Ranger. I think they're about even now.
4Runner vs Explorer? Absolutely no question in my mind.
Mine either - the Explorer wins, because of the Independent Rear Suspension and folding, and very usable third seat. They are both well made and durable, the yota slighty more so, maybe.
Any Lincoln vs the Lexus equivalent?. Don't even start.
Me, I have no use for a Lexus. But I have been out on the trails in my old 4Runner for some years now, and no-one takes Explorers out there. With the new model of the 4Runner, they will never take 4Runners out there any more either. But up until '03, it was a very rugged truck, where Explorers had too little ground clearance, bad approach and departure unless you lifted them, and a frame that flexed like nobody's business.
Now on the road they were great, but if you are only going to be on the road, I would never recommend such a thirsty beast. Better something like a Highlander, a type of car Ford is FINALLY introducing in the good year 2007 with the Edge.
I have no use for indie rears off the pavement, the solid axles are much more durable. I protested the IFS the 4Runner adopted long ago, but of course everyone but Jeep has had IFS across the board for two decades.
Oh yeah, and I very much meant the new/current Avalon. The old one was mostly a stretch Camry without anything to make it stand out. But of course, back then Ford didn't have a Five Hundred, so why would I have referenced the old one? :-)
Anyway, all of this to say: I am curious what a Ford salesman thinks Ford thinks it is. Does Ford see itself as different from GM in some meaningful way? Or Dodge/Chrysler? How does it view Toyota/Lexus?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
This is the problem, Ford has tried to be a full product line and sourced vehicles from so many different places, that what product line there is is all unrelated.
Some of this is the fault of that automotive idiot Jack Nasser. He actually told each product line to develope their own line of radios! Can you imagine something so stupid as to force a person who buys a Taurus and an F-150 to have to learn to work two totally different radios?
Examples of car companies that know what they are... Mazda. Since Zoom Zoom, Mazda has made steady gains. Toyota. Dependable and reliable that appeals somewhat to everyone.
I hope that Ford can make this Bold Moves strategy work. If Ford can instill a sense of Mustang and F-150 into all of its products, then will definately be a core group of people that will be interested.
Example of Ford misfires. The Five Hundred. This car has no clue what its trying to be.
nippononly: Having said that, they DO seem to be the discount brand. There's lots of cash on the hood of many models. How can they be giving cash back amounting to almost 20% or more of the total sticker on the Focus and Ranger? That's the DEFINITION of discount, on two of their more popular models, in two high-volume segments of the biz.
I agree, and Ford needs to take action, because in the long run it cannot compete against the Koreans.
Look at Honda - when it updates one its models, the top-of-the-line version is more expensive than any of the previous generations' versions. The new Civic, CR-V and Acura MDX all seem to be much more "upscale" than the previous generation. The Fit, meanwhile, is being sold on the "cute" factor, its overall competence and versatility. Notice that, for its size, it really isn't all that inexpensive.
This tells me that Honda is trying to move away from the Koreans, particularly Hyundai. Fighting over the bottom of the market, especially in view of Hyundia's lower cost structure, is a battle that Honda obviously believes it cannot ultimately win. How will Ford compete?
Example of Ford misfires. The Five Hundred. This car has no clue what its trying to be.
Five Hundred - the Edsel of Bill Jr. You're right, it's pretty conflicted. It's actually a very versatile car, huge back seat, hugh trunk, tall seating, very comfy. But they tried to give is old Avalon styling, with a Passat roofline. Talk about a car designed by committee. That is what you get when you do that and have no courage.
Imagine the courage it took for Donald Peterson to bring out the 83 Thunderbird, which actually started the road back for Ford. I knew they had a winner there, when I was in Maui in 83, and rented a Red Thunderbird to drive, and the guy behind me, who owned a Mercedes back home, (I owned a Fairmont at the time) told me, "Ford made that one right". And after driving it, I agreed, and went home and ordered up a Gold 84. Then the Tempo in 84, and the Taurus in 86 changed the automotive world. Those were Bold Moves.
They should scrap the Five Hundred entirely, and the name too. Mulally should dump the Alliterative Naming strategy and bring out a new Crown Victoria that is fully updated. That car still has a good reputation, even in it's current neglected condition. The Five Hundred is irreparable IMO.
This tells me that Honda is trying to move away from the Koreans, particularly Hyundai. Fighting over the bottom of the market, especially in view of Hyundia's lower cost structure, is a battle that Honda obviously believes it cannot ultimately win. How will Ford compete?
How indeed will Ford compete? Honda has clearly mapped out a strategery to add value to their cars over the Hyundai, which is what Honda used to be. Hope that works.
But Ford? This is why I feel Ford and GM are doomed at the bottom market. Discounting your way to profitability worked for Walmart, but nobody else has figured that out so well. And this is why I feel it would be a mistake to sell the Euro nameplates, because if run correctly, they could end up being what Ford becomes. It's a niche that won't go away. Nurtured properly, it may be their salvation. Ford can still be a truck maker for now at least, but they haven't done small cars in America right ever. They lose money on every Focus as it is. All it does is squash the CAFE rating for them. I would quit trying to compete with the Japanese and now Koreans in the small car biz. You can't win.
I have seen a lot of people point to the five hundred as a bad bad car.
I haven't driven one, so i don't know, but it doesn't *seem* that bad.
I mean, granted, it's not an enthusiast car, and this is an enthusiast forum. But aren't a lot of people in the market for a big car with upright seating that gets decent gas mileage and doesn't cost a lot?
The 500 has a lot of things going for it. It has a high seating position. This gives a lot of people a better view of the road and feels more "commanding" to them without going to a glorified stationwagon SUV thing. It offers AWD as well. Another good thing about that seat height is it really helps the ingress and egress of some older folks. Its very easy to drive (if not exciting) and it has very simple easy to read displays. The radio doesn't have 1000 tiny buttons. It gets reasonably fuel economy. Its kind-of based on the outgoing Volvo S80, a very premium car. The 3.0l that is in there now is a stop gap until Ford was happy with the 3.5. I think that will do a lot to address its major shortcoming. I also thought I heard they are switching from the CVT to the GM/Ford 5spd auto. Perception is a fickle thing.
mark on this, but somehow, deep in the recesses of many of us, me included, we all WANT Ford/GM to come out with great products that we are proud to buy, run well, last long (at least as long as the imports seem to have the reputation for going), but many of us see the imports as better because of friends or personal experience...
I had two Hondas, both 1988s, that lasted 165K and 180K respectively, both with basic maintenance, oil, tires, brakes, and the major tuneups every 75K miles...I am sols on Honda...
Yet, I have been buying American since 1998...a Regal, Intrepid, Sable, and now Crown Vic and Ram 1500...they are good vehicles, altho the Regal was not, and I do feel that import dashboards do not look like they are from the 60s, because they did not exist in the 60s, whereas my Crown Vic could be updated at least to the 90s, if not the new millenium...
I will probably stay American, altho the Santa Fe/Veracruz SUVs do intrigue me...but after my Honda experience, I can truly see why folks who try Toyota or Honda desert the Big 3 forever...
The excitement that existed with the Ford Taurus from 1986 until the disasterous re-style of 1996 will not happen with the current Ford 500- too plain vanilla. But I always thought that it would make a swell taxicab or fleet vehicle- heck, maybe a police car. At some point the old Crown Vic has to die, I doubt if Ford wants to replace it with another big V8 rear drive car. But the room and trunk space of the Ford 500 would make it seem like a fleet dream car.
Let's talk more specifically about Ford's most recent issue in our Ford Recall Woes discussion. This one's gotten a bit general, but specific new topic ideas are welcome!
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Comments
Their money should be invested in product that people want not lobbyists to give them protection from Toyota...all that shows is that the company is crippled and does not deserve to live...they are not too big to fail, unless we want the feds to own all the means of production in the US, and I think that is fascism...
Just like a heroin addict must go thru h*ll to dry out, so must the automakers to learn that no one will bail them out...otherwise, we are really treating them like babies, while they sit there and act like magnates...
The downside of free market capitalism is that some companies fail...that is the part that no one likes to admit...it teaches companies that they cannot get complacent or they will die...and the workers who tied their fortunes to a dying company will simply have to start over in their lives, as there is no guaranteed employment, period...
When workers leave voluntarily, we assume they are improving their lives...when workers are disgorged against their will, we also assume they will improve their lives, just not in the way they intended...
Capitalism involves risk, and the Ford family seems to be out on a never-ending drunk binge, wondering why everything is fuzzy...sobering up can be a serious reality check...
I think i see substantially more (r) than (d) in here.
http://www.newsmeat.com/ceo_political_donations/William_Ford_Jr.php
Where did you get your information from?
Even the Cobalt sells for more than the Focus, as does the Elantra. The Cobalt is not a notably better car, and I am talking about the LAST-gen Elantra there. The new one has just arrived. Which will sell for $15-17K in typical price-undercutting fashion for the Koreans.
So will Ford ever have the courage to bring products to market that are truly competitive and potentially offer high profits per unit? All the press folks seem to think an awful lot of the European Focus.
Next year's "let's stick a new front clip on the same old pig and call it all-new" update is not going to cut it. Meanwhile, they say MAYBE we will get the C1 (Euro) Focus in 2010, and maybe the next-gen Fiesta in 2011? Do they hope to sell any cars before then?? :-/
They are "doing a GM" with the Focus - cheaping out on the domestic-branded version of a car to make the imported versions (Mazda3 and Volvo S40) look better or more special or something.
What's wrong with the Focus goes straight to the heart of what's wrong with Ford - no management vision, and no guts to break the mold of the last 20 years, which has dictated rock-bottom prices, huge cash back, and just-OK products in many cases.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Ford absolutely does not need a $19,000 Focus. Now if it was a different kind of vehicle, like a CUV or something that would be a different story, Ford tried many times and never sucessfully brought a car here from Europe. Remember the Mondeo to Contour? or the Merkur's?
The Contour was to small and priced 2 close to the Taurus, hence a big FLOP!
The Fusion may be based on the Mazda6 but it is Ford in execution. It adds size over the Mazda6 and costs much less.
Non-luxary European cars from other makes aren't exactly doing so well here either. VW's numbers make Ford look like Toyota in case you didn't notice. And you don't even want to talk about the fate of the rest of the European Non-Lux brands. See any Renualts, Fiats, Pegouts, Citreons, Opals, etc, for sale in the States lately?
I'm sick of people saying that the Ford vehicle should be more like this or more like that... People who like Toyotas, should go buy Toyotas!
What Ford needs to do is to capture the people who buy a Toyota because there is nothing else out there they like better.
Toyota concentrates on being the Vanilla Ice Cream of car makers, and while Vanilla is the most popular flavor, its not the only flavor.
Mark.
Even though the Koreans (and the Chinese in the not-too-distant future) continue to undercut them, and even Chevy and Dodge a lot of the time.
And because that has worked so well for them so far.
When you have these "legacy costs", how can you afford to try to make discount prices your strategy? Seems like you should try to up the quality, up the desirability, and steal customers from the competition that are accustomed to paying higher prices for top-notch product.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
They are platform sharing and applying to nitch markets, taking a page from the Chrysler workbook.
Overall sales numbers don't mean so much to Ford anymore, its not about growing market share as much as being lean enough to turn a profit with what they have (like BMW).
The days of selling 1,000,000 Mustangs or LTDs a year are gone. If you get 200,000 out the door you are doing fantastic. Having more than one car in the same category gives choice. Sharing platforms saves development costs and allows the makers to offer more choices at a lower cost (Like the 300C,Charger,Magnum, the last MBZ E320, etc for RWD, and the Neon/Caliber/Compass/etc on the FWD).
Wherever it was, it's obviously incorrect, and I apologize to all. I am very surprised, however......
Today, I don't think Ford knows what they are. As for:
Give me an Avalon over a Five Hundred - any day
Up to this year, I would disagree. Now, however, the Avalon is special. Previously it WAS a 500.
Ditto a Tacoma over a Ranger. I think they're about even now.
4Runner vs Explorer? Absolutely no question in my mind.
Mine either - the Explorer wins, because of the Independent Rear Suspension and folding, and very usable third seat. They are both well made and durable, the yota slighty more so, maybe.
Any Lincoln vs the Lexus equivalent?. Don't even start.
Ok, you got me there...
Me, I have no use for a Lexus. But I have been out on the trails in my old 4Runner for some years now, and no-one takes Explorers out there. With the new model of the 4Runner, they will never take 4Runners out there any more either. But up until '03, it was a very rugged truck, where Explorers had too little ground clearance, bad approach and departure unless you lifted them, and a frame that flexed like nobody's business.
Now on the road they were great, but if you are only going to be on the road, I would never recommend such a thirsty beast. Better something like a Highlander, a type of car Ford is FINALLY introducing in the good year 2007 with the Edge.
I have no use for indie rears off the pavement, the solid axles are much more durable. I protested the IFS the 4Runner adopted long ago, but of course everyone but Jeep has had IFS across the board for two decades.
Oh yeah, and I very much meant the new/current Avalon. The old one was mostly a stretch Camry without anything to make it stand out. But of course, back then Ford didn't have a Five Hundred, so why would I have referenced the old one? :-)
Anyway, all of this to say: I am curious what a Ford salesman thinks Ford thinks it is. Does Ford see itself as different from GM in some meaningful way? Or Dodge/Chrysler? How does it view Toyota/Lexus?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Some of this is the fault of that automotive idiot Jack Nasser. He actually told each product line to develope their own line of radios! Can you imagine something so stupid as to force a person who buys a Taurus and an F-150 to have to learn to work two totally different radios?
Examples of car companies that know what they are...
Mazda. Since Zoom Zoom, Mazda has made steady gains.
Toyota. Dependable and reliable that appeals somewhat to everyone.
I hope that Ford can make this Bold Moves strategy work. If Ford can instill a sense of Mustang and F-150 into all of its products, then will definately be a core group of people that will be interested.
Example of Ford misfires.
The Five Hundred. This car has no clue what its trying to be.
There are more.
Mark.
The rebates on cars but at Flex Factories was never more thatn $1,500. Mustang, Fusion, Milan, Zephyr, 500, Freestyle.
I know that Ford is hevily backing the Zephyr leases but no more so than other car lines in this catagory.
Also rebates result from some Idiot refusing to put the MSRP inline with transaction cost.
If you are a current Town Car owner, right now you can get an 07 TC with almost $10,000 in rebates.
Obviously stickering the TC at $50,000 is just a joke.
Same with Focus. The Focus launches every model year with a $2,000 rebate. Why can't they just lower the MSRP?
Mark.
I agree, and Ford needs to take action, because in the long run it cannot compete against the Koreans.
Look at Honda - when it updates one its models, the top-of-the-line version is more expensive than any of the previous generations' versions. The new Civic, CR-V and Acura MDX all seem to be much more "upscale" than the previous generation. The Fit, meanwhile, is being sold on the "cute" factor, its overall competence and versatility. Notice that, for its size, it really isn't all that inexpensive.
This tells me that Honda is trying to move away from the Koreans, particularly Hyundai. Fighting over the bottom of the market, especially in view of Hyundia's lower cost structure, is a battle that Honda obviously believes it cannot ultimately win. How will Ford compete?
The Five Hundred. This car has no clue what its trying to be.
Five Hundred - the Edsel of Bill Jr.
You're right, it's pretty conflicted. It's actually a very versatile car, huge back seat, hugh trunk, tall seating, very comfy. But they tried to give is old Avalon styling, with a Passat roofline. Talk about a car designed by committee. That is what you get when you do that and have no courage.
Imagine the courage it took for Donald Peterson to bring out the 83 Thunderbird, which actually started the road back for Ford. I knew they had a winner there, when I was in Maui in 83, and rented a Red Thunderbird to drive, and the guy behind me, who owned a Mercedes back home, (I owned a Fairmont at the time) told me, "Ford made that one right". And after driving it, I agreed, and went home and ordered up a Gold 84. Then the Tempo in 84, and the Taurus in 86 changed the automotive world. Those were Bold Moves.
They should scrap the Five Hundred entirely, and the name too. Mulally should dump the Alliterative Naming strategy and bring out a new Crown Victoria that is fully updated. That car still has a good reputation, even in it's current neglected condition. The Five Hundred is irreparable IMO.
How indeed will Ford compete? Honda has clearly mapped out a strategery to add value to their cars over the Hyundai, which is what Honda used to be. Hope that works.
But Ford? This is why I feel Ford and GM are doomed at the bottom market. Discounting your way to profitability worked for Walmart, but nobody else has figured that out so well. And this is why I feel it would be a mistake to sell the Euro nameplates, because if run correctly, they could end up being what Ford becomes. It's a niche that won't go away. Nurtured properly, it may be their salvation. Ford can still be a truck maker for now at least, but they haven't done small cars in America right ever. They lose money on every Focus as it is. All it does is squash the CAFE rating for them. I would quit trying to compete with the Japanese and now Koreans in the small car biz. You can't win.
I haven't driven one, so i don't know, but it doesn't *seem* that bad.
I mean, granted, it's not an enthusiast car, and this is an enthusiast forum. But aren't a lot of people in the market for a big car with upright seating that gets decent gas mileage and doesn't cost a lot?
The 3.0l that is in there now is a stop gap until Ford was happy with the 3.5. I think that will do a lot to address its major shortcoming. I also thought I heard they are switching from the CVT to the GM/Ford 5spd auto.
Perception is a fickle thing.
I had two Hondas, both 1988s, that lasted 165K and 180K respectively, both with basic maintenance, oil, tires, brakes, and the major tuneups every 75K miles...I am sols on Honda...
Yet, I have been buying American since 1998...a Regal, Intrepid, Sable, and now Crown Vic and Ram 1500...they are good vehicles, altho the Regal was not, and I do feel that import dashboards do not look like they are from the 60s, because they did not exist in the 60s, whereas my Crown Vic could be updated at least to the 90s, if not the new millenium...
I will probably stay American, altho the Santa Fe/Veracruz SUVs do intrigue me...but after my Honda experience, I can truly see why folks who try Toyota or Honda desert the Big 3 forever...
Mark
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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