Knowledge is very important if it's complete and understandable knowledge. Remember, the numbers your mentioning are gross profit. This is very different than net profit.
example, If the dealer has overhead of $1500 per car sold and only brings in $1200 gross profit the business owner is losing money.
Car manufacturers put tremendous pressure on dealers to spend huge sums of money from a fancy building that might cost $15 million to a special tool that is used 3x a year for $5000.
Also, for anyone who purchases from a traditional dealership that haggles the selling price.. the only way somebody gets a "super low" price is because somebody else over paid, essentially subsidizing the so called smarter shopper...nothing wrong with this but its reality.
I'm not an advocate of people blindly falling down on the desk and spending money foolishly at the dealership but having a full understanding of the total financial picture gives a better understanding of things.
That's right, anytime regulation "restrains" the free market and restricts profits, business fails and supplies dry up. Why sell gas if I can't make a profit? I'll just quit selling it, which the reduces the supply and drives the price up. How does that "restraint of capitalism" help the public?
Ergo: the dealer should not be fettered and be free to make what he can honestly make. The customer has the duty to keep the dealer honest, or walk. If the dealer is crooked, that's where reporting to the regulatory agencies can and should help.
I don’t think anyone here disagrees with your words, if they are taken at their exact literal meaning. Where the different sides of the political spectrum fall into disagreement (in many cases radical disagreement), is about the words “honest” and “regulatory”.
In many cases, “honest” (when you boil it down) is about adhering to the letter of the law, not about doing the “right thing” or the “moral thing”. So if the dealer’s only responsibility is to not break the letter of the law, then you need laws which will restrain the business, the car dealer or whomever, from screwing the customer.
Take, for instance, real estate. If you’re selling a house which has ever been infested by termites, you have to disclose that fact to the potential buyer. It’s a matter of law. If the lot the house sits on is in the 100 year flood plain, you have to tell the buyer. You, as a conservative, probably see that as “restraint of capitalism”. Myself, as a liberal, and a home buyer, am very very happy to have that protection built into the process. And I would like to see more such protections built into the car sales business.
I agree that some degree of regulation is good and I consider myself a conservative minded guy. There is already a huge amount of protection built into car sales, depending on your state regulations. At what point does regulations restrain honest and legit business? Are consumers willing to pay for this? They don't want to pay a dealer $100 over cost for a $40K automobile, will consumers be willing to pay an additional few hundred dollars for regulations that may or may not apply to them? Should consumers who lie and try every scam in the book to "beat" the dealer be held to the same standards?
Quite frankly there would be no debate If consumers would "walk away" from sleazy retailers and not reward their bad behavior with a sale...there would be a lot less stress when buying a car.
I have had consumers tell me they will put up with abuse, lying, underhanded business practices, endless back and forth haggling and anything else to save a couple hundred bucks. I don't get it.
There is no possibility the average buyer could ever know a dealer's cost structure or profit objective. All we can know is the price at which a dealer will sell. All we need do to get that price is ask. However, we do know whatever price price a dealer offers will be excessive and will include all dealer cost plus profit.
As has been posted many times and published many times, buyers should never negotiate from the dealer's price offer. Rather buyers should negotiate from a price they are willing to pay. Perhaps the most effective way to develop a price objective is to start at invoice, reduce that by all incentives, and negotiate up from that amount. I have yet to read anything posted by any of the dealers on this forum which truly suggests otherwise.
Of course dealers could make the process more transparent and provide their cost and price data to the buyer. The buyer could then review that data to develop a true fair and reasonable purchase price. Dealers could provide cost data such as the actual amount they pay the OEM, the overhead and general administrative costs the incur on an annual basis, and the total amount they pay the OEM for all vehicles. With such information, an astute buyer could easily compute a fair and reasonable purchase price.
Obviously dealers will not provide such data. Therefore, we buyers need to use whatever information we do have available to develop our price objective and negotiate solely from that amount.
That means buyers must rely on more general price, rather than cost, data to develop a fair and reasonable price. As you allude, a few of us buyers understand this approach and we probably do benefit from those buyers who do not.
One final comment, anyone buying from a no haggle dealership paid too much, period. Without negotiation, the best price is impossible. The only folks who will argue his are the dealer types lurking on this forum.
I do not sell Hondas either. Not anymore. I retired early.
Maybe EVERY retail operation should post their costs, payroll, overhead costs etc and just let people offer what they think is "fair".
For a lot of people "fair" means the store should break even or even lose money. Do you think a 10% markup is "fair"? I mean, even Costco operates on a 5-15% markup and their stores are packed.
So on a 25,000 car, a dealer would make 2500.00? Too much? How about a 5% markup? 1250.00 profit? Still too much? Please, tell me what you would consider to be "fair". I'm curious.
On your final comment...first of all, I don't "lurk" in these forums. I speak up when I can help someone or when I feel I need to respond.
I realize this may be hard for some to understand but there are a lot of people out there who despise negotiating. They don't want to call 20 stores. They don't want to spend hours pitting one store against others. They don't want to sit and grind for three hours.
They simply want a good deal and they want to be treated in a straightforward, honest manner. If a "no dicker" store gives them a reasonable discount and makes the process easy, then they didn't "pay too much". These people leave the store happy and with the feeling they got a good price. They are content with their process and life in general it seems. These are the people who give good surveys and refer their friends and neighbors.
Interesting perspective....Of course what defines "what is the best possible price?" Is it the lowest price and the worst possible experience? Is it the quickest and most honest dealings at a higher price?
I rarely find that the lowest price provides me with an acceptable experience. It always seems the ole saying "you get what you pay for" always rings true when I look for the lowest possible price of anything.
You say that anyone buying from a no haggle dealership paid too much.....Really? What makes you so sure that by negotiating the best possible price is guaranteed? I have seen plenty of people negotiate themselves into terrible deals. I see it happen all the time.
I honestly think we are dinosaurs from a different time.
I have come to grips after reading these forums that PRICE trumps everything else. People will drive great distances, put up with sleazy stores and salespeople endure all of the slimy tricks and lies....IF, they can get what they think is the lowest price.
Seems like a miserable way to go through life but, what do I know?
No; you're not a dinosaur isellhondas; rather you are bang on.
It's the "new & improved we know better than all the prior generation" crowd we have raised. LOL
I've had people willing to drive 150-200 miles to a major metro area to look at several cars and they come back empty handed; beaten and battered! LMAO
My customers tell me how the sales person mis-represented the vehicle over the phone. Hmm?..OK
Not too much different than the "smart" ones who walk in with their KBB under their arm as though it were a sword ready to do battle..I just smile and ask them if KBB is writing the check for their purchase?
What is so wrong with a consumer arming themselves with info to help them make an educated purchase? Especially on something as expensive as a new vehicle? They are walking into a place where you are in your element (admitting that your job is to make as much money on a sale as you can) and they are out of their element (wanting to be able to save as much money as they can). What is so wrong with this scenario? I would think an honourable salesman would respect an educated consumer, rather than make fun of. If I were I salesman, I would guess that one of the most difficult customers are ones who know the least.
I've had people willing to drive 150-200 miles to a major metro area to look at several cars and they come back empty handed; beaten and battered! LMAO
When I read this, I maintain that my caution flags would be waving their highest when dealing with someone who takes so much obvious pleasure in someone else's pain.
There has to be a happy line towed in there some place right?
"What is so wrong with a consumer arming themselves with info to help them make an educated purchase?" __________________________________________________________
Here is one of many problems with that.
1 The consumer's "education" is based on (other) companies who claim to be helping the customer. The definition of the word "helping" is (Make Money) in America today.
These consumer advocacy type groups research info that will help them get YOU as a customer.
You say the consumer is "out of their element".
This presents problem #2.
2) The car buyer lies 10X more than the sales staff for just the reason you mention; they are out of their element and afraid. They feel not only out of their element, but out of control.
This feeling breeds what the consumer believes is a RIGHT to lie to protect themselves. In essence it only makes the process worse. It is a lose-Lose scenario for them.
When I first began selling cars my conscience bothered me that I was making so much money per sale. So, I made a decision to limit my gross to a low level believing the customer would respect this and buy from me.
GUESS WHAT?
I heard the same lame excuses and experienced the same grinding down of the price. Nothing changed except my pay check!
Truth? Consumers don't want truth. They like the game. It's the American way; not only in car sales but in everything in life. We live in a frightened poorly educated country as a whole who have so much pride as to NOT be able to recognize their down fall due to nothing more than sheer ignorance from the blinding light of pride.
Life is tough. Period. We live in a country of whiners now more than ever and EVERYONE; and I do mean everyone wants more money out of their job.
Good grief..even the fast food industry now wants $15/hr! I don;t begrudge then for trying..The only difference is they won't get it and I continue to make a ton of money off the arrogance of people who come to my dealership spouting their superior research skills.
You may not like what you hear; yet the truth remains.
If you want to change the auto sales process/industry, may I suggest you look to the greed of mankind overall and not the car salesman.
I wrote many pages back that, yes, an informed and logical customer is my favorite. Do your research on a fair price, decide if that price and car is for you, and come in and buy it. You offer a price that is in the realm of acceptable, and let me know how you obtained it and that it's a clear way to get a deal right now, we are golden as long as your data is accurate. If thats what you do, you and I will have a quick and pleasant experience (if the car configuration you like exists anywhere around us).
The problem comes when people are semi-informed, or just half retarded (people who combine every piece of info from 7 sources over 2 years and want to pick and choose the info that helps their case only).
If you try to get well below the average price we sell for, you will have an uphill battle.
Why would I sell a car to you for below average when statistics dictate later in the day someone else will come in and pay more? Most small to medium dealerships sell 100 cars a month between new and used. That means 3 a day. (ok, yes weekends skew the numbers) If you're offer at 2pm sucks, thats ok, well sell another one at 6pm. If you offer crazy numbers at 8:52pm, we'll go home because we know 20 more customers and 3 more sales are coming tomorrow. Most dealerships and manufacturers have improved their model from 5-50 years ago. They no longer PUSH insane amounts of inventory on dealers. Most brands are using a pull system where dealerships barely have enough cars to last them comfortably. You may have noticed this through "wow, why cant I find a gray one with nav ANYWHERE in the state? I dont get it." or "where are the previous model year sales? why cant I get a last model year car for $6000 off in October? What do you mean they sold out in August?" And many more examples that the systems and tides have changed.
Want to avoid all crazy negotiations? Offer and pay within the normal range.
Want to be special and pay hundreds or thousands less than most? FINE. But dont come and write about terrible negotiations, managers, time lost, yada yada. You're literally asking a dealership to make a special concession just for you, for some unknown reason. YOU get to pay less apparently? Fine, if you can convince us I suppose. Everyone now and then it happens. But 75% of the time it just wastes the salesman time. Weak salesman waste the majority of their time dealing with customers like this. Luckily I learned early on how to send them through the ringer quicker, and was able to make a fantastic living far beyond what I could as an engineer.
"Not too much different than the "smart" ones who walk in with their KBB under their arm as though it were a sword ready to do battle..I just smile and ask them if KBB is writing the check for their purchase?"
I fight that battle all the time as well. The KBB, Consumer Reports, Internet folks who have "done their research" and believe everything they have heard, been told and read. Yet, all they have done is get themselves into a position where they won't get the car they want because someone told them how much it "should cost".
You offer a price that is in the realm of acceptable, and let me know how you obtained it and that it's a clear way to get a deal right now,
I have to ask why does how I came up with the price have anything to do with it? I could have done my research, asked someone who bought one or pulled it out of my a** it shouldn't matter. A reasonable price is a reasonable price.
If I come in and say "I'll give you $25,000 for that sludgemobile" you should be able to say yes or no based solely on that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
You may be right abou customers lying more often than salespeople, 10 times is a gross excaggeration, but I can see people lying often. However, you saying they do it because they like it is outragous and inconsistent with you previous statement regarding self protection. Why same people seem to have no problem telling the truth in a furniture or electronic store, but turn to liars in a car store? Is it possible they learned they can't trust anybody there, whether frm past personal experience or heard/read stories?
Just to make it clear, I never lie and I think it's a lousy strategy for selling, buying, or life. Once I heard a character on a TV show said he never lied because it's too hard to keep track of ones tales, I like that very much. However, I understand why so many people feel they have to. They really don't, but they think they do.
@Snakeweasel.. The reason it matters how you obtained the info is because my job is to sell a car for as close to MSRP as possible. MSRP is 'FAIR' price. (people pay it on in demand cars all the time).
If you come in and say you want $2000 off MSRP, I would be doing my job poorly if I just said OK. My job is to get you to pay more. You as a customer do not want to go through this entire process of watching me try to extract a higher price from you right? Then simply tell me how you obtained the number, why you think its fair, and that this is the deal it needs to be since you know this is a realistic offer you can get somewhere else also. If that is what you say, I have nothing left to fight on. I would have to be an idiot to try to get you to pay more, when you have good evidence that you dont need to. I then concede I am working with an educated and correct customer, and most likely there is nothing to be gained by using my tactics gained from thousands of negotiations.
OR, you say you want $2000 off because thats what you got on your last car, so you want it again. That is such a lame reason that I can fight it. And most of the time I get you to pay more. (Maybe you think Im playing keyboard hero here, but I promise Im pretty good at my job).
Does that explain it? I need to know the reason to know what Im up against. Because you are asking for a discount off an already fair asking price. You trust Honda (random example) to build a safe and dependable car, but you apparently don't trust them to name the price fairly. So now you want a discount... fine. But you have to have a good reason. Some reasons are beatable, some are not. And I promise you "Research shows this is a price you or your competition sells this car for, so give it to me now without trouble" is FAR FAR better than "This is just my number. Its a combination of my expectations, zodiac sign, hearsay, current savings account balance, my 401ks performance, and its raining outside so you guys should be more motivated to my price"
No it doesn't answer the question but it does show that it is a tatic to get more mneyou of me. Simple fact is is that a price is doable or it's not. I walk in and say I will pay so much for such and such a car with certain options I expect a yes or a no or a counter offer. A response asking me how I got a price to me is telling me you don't want to sell the car at that price and you don't want to negotiate.
So regardless of how I got the figure the deal is either doable or it's not.
There is always another Buyota Benz dealership down the road.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
MSRP would be a fair price, if dealers were not asking additional fees for this and that, or pushing all those junk products that are designed to increase profit margin without adding substantial value (some of them add no value at all, some add some marginal value at high price).
If everybody walked to a showroom and said "OK, Mr. Salesman, I trust Honda's judgment on this Civic, I will pay what's on this window", next thing they'll see is a contract with MSRP on it, preprinted $799 fee for this, $99 fee for that, and $10 fee for something else (real example from my Town), THEN you'll inform them that there is a paint sealer, rustproofing and seat protection package ALREADY installed on this car (and of course on every car on your lot) for mere $499 (who doesn't want such valuable package, right?). THEN your S&I guy will pull a piece of paper showing a "Extra Platinum Super Safe and Nobody Comes Close" protection package with all those great financial products, like extended warranty, GAP, and so on, "tailored especially for you, Mr. Customer", because "we all want to protect our investment". Oh, those payments will also be based on our last special interest rate of 6%. Let's not be a grinder, what is extra $50 on interest. Before you know it, a roughly $20K MSRP car turns into $25K car and that's even before interest.
So forgive me, if I call baloney on your assertions of the "fair" price. It might be fair in a vacuum, or in most other retailers. There are plenty of stores not discounting their products and people buy them. However, those stores usually don't charge "shelf fee", "salesman presence fee". Some of course also try to sell extended warranties or financing, but except some (not all) furniture and appliance stores, those sales attempts are nearly not as aggressive as those in car stores. Agreeing to pay sticker upfront in a car store is perceived to be equivalent to wearing a T-shirt with "I'm a sucker extraordinaire, just waiting to be relieved of the last penny any way you can think of" written on both front and back.
MSRP? What makes a car so special that you have to pay sticker price?
If I let her, my wife would buy me Nautica shirts for $65 (to fit my mature figure...lol).. It's a nice shirt, but it's not $65 nice.. At the end of the season and with her Macy's card, I get them for around $20...
So.. sure, I trust Nautica and Macy's.. just not with my money... Same goes for car dealers/manufacturers.. ;-)
By the way... explaining to a salesperson how you came up with your price is probably the worst thing you can do... Just read why above...
This was just a construct, showing that no matter how much you'd be willing to pay, dealers will alway find a way to say you should pay more. What I was saying is that even IF one accepts MSRP as "fair" price, this would just be beginning of padding on charges after charges without much, if any added value.
BTW, the ubiquitous presence of cash and other incentives is the proof of MSRPs being too high. The market is conditioned to the point MSRP means almost nothing.
By the way... explaining to a salesperson how you came up with your price is probably the worst thing you can do
Exactly, all it is doing is giving the salesman opportunity to bump up your price without giving a counter offer. When I was in sales if someone came to me and explained how they got the price all I would do was look for weaknesses in their formula. Even if there were none I would make stuff up, find anything to say "Oh there is your problem" so I can get their bid up. Just a figure is all they really need.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
So even though I think I explained the valid reasoning for telling a salesperson how you obtained your goal price (assuming its correct), apparently others disagree but can't really articulate why. The only person that has a semi-valid point is Snakeweasel, except that it also actually agrees with exactly what I said.
If you are CORRECT with your price offer through current research, I will not be able to find 'weaknesses in their formula'.
If your reason is WEAK, or you GIVE NO REASON as many here would state is the best tactic, that then opens me up to go to work to find their weakness in their formula. Not telling me ANY REASON just lets me start the conversation on my terms, and I guarantee you after hundreds and thousands of attempts I have amassed a few more rebuttals, reasons, and tactics than a buyer.
In the other subject, the fact that someone says they would pay MSRP if only dealers removed all their crazy fees, and especially the finance products, cracks me up. I dont think THOSE are the reasons why people negotiate. I also HATE large dealer fees only because it is an artificial negotiating point that hopes you'll gloss over it and pay it. Its lame and deceitful. I havent worked at a dealer that had those since California doesnt allow anything over a $55 doc fee. Also, if you really have such a problem with finance products, simply turn them down. Say No thank you. Yes, you'll have to say it several times. Yes that sucks, but don't forget you're the one that went in there and asked to take a car home for less than MSRP, so if they have to do you favors to buy a car, don't you think you owe them something also? And no, these days simply buying the car is not you doing something for them. Heck, when I shop at the North Face Outlet during their big Demo Sale, I have to sift through BOXES of clothes to find what I like and hopefully my size. I don't complain, because its at a reduced price. Full price is a few towns over in a nice store with hangers and every size labeled. If I want a great experience, in and out, I pay full price. If I want a discount, sale, yada yada, you have to compromise something. I promise you, if you walk in and say "I'll buy this car right now at MSRP, plus tax and license, but I don't want to be pitched any products in finance" theyll do it for you. Heck, they'll do that for you for almost ANY fair price if you've been reasonable. It's only when you start getting prices that are below average that you start being treated like a disposable customer, because at that price you often are.
"If your reason is WEAK, or you GIVE NO REASON as many here would state is the best tactic, that then opens me up to go to work to find their weakness in their formula. Not telling me ANY REASON just lets me start the conversation on my terms, and I guarantee you after hundreds and thousands of attempts I have amassed a few more rebuttals, reasons, and tactics than a buyer. "
You are only seeing this from your side of the equation.. You talk to 10 people in a day, sell one of them a car, you've had a good day.. then, do it again tomorrow...
Most of us only buy a car once every couple of years. We may not have the negotiating experience that you do, but we aren't worried about our success rate, either. When I get what you describe in the paragraph quoted above, I'll be out the door in five minutes and off to buy a car somewhere else, where I don't have to listen to salesperson BS.. I can do the research, come up with a fair, achievable price, and find someone to sell me a car... all without your song and dance. And, so can the other 9 people that didn't buy a car from you, today..
If I’m buying something from Craigslist, then I will engage in that give-and-take. If I’m trying to buy a “take-off” set of wheels and tires from an individual, I might very well tell him, “I’ve seen very similar items for less, so I will offer you this amount.” Or even, “You want this out of your way, and I can use it. Why not sell it to me for what I’m willing to pay?”
To a car salesman, no, no way. “Here is my offer. Take it or make me a counter-offer.” No way am I going to try and justify my offer. The salesman will just find some way to twist things around and try to use it against me.
You are absolutely right.. "take it or make me a counter offer"
The salesman will then make a counter offer, usually starting from closer to MSRP, and justify it through many things. You'll probably go through many iterations of this.
It will probably work on you, and your offer will rise. OR, if you said what I gave as an example text, and you were correct about the information, you would have bought the car on the first go around.
He will of course make a counter offer. Thats his job.
The only times I've accepted offers based on the first go around like that is when they are in effect higher than average and I am just too tired/wore out/in a hurry to do my job properly. I suppose you can hope to get lucky like that. Still doesn't mean you got a good deal unless you did the proper research. And if you did that research, you could of gone about it in a better way as I outlined.
I don't think every time an offer or counteroffer is made, it HAS to be justified in some manner. As others said, the fact that you insist on customers making such justifications is a good indication that advantageous to you and your store, for obvious reasons, also already stated. Again, judging by your success rate, you are fine doing so. I always hear from salespeople "I'm not going to change, because it works". They see certain target success rate and if they hit it, they're happy. They can anw will put those unsuccessful cases on anything that absolves them from responsibility, flaky customer, be-back, grinder, liar, etc. They'll likely be right in some good number.
You'll probably miss majority of those in this forum, who want a simple yes/no/here is what I can do. As long as you hit your target rate you are fine in your own set of criteria. At the end that's all that counts - you sold enough and made money, the other people who didn't buy from you possibly found a store that can deal with them in a different manner. Everybody is happy at the end.
On other subject, I'm glad you hate large fees, too. However, that's reality in my neighborhood, where over 90% of franchise dealers use those fees and also large percentage of dealers use mop and glo preinstalled on their stock. In other words, don't move to Florida, or you'll have to put a brave face to local practices.
A lot of the people in this forum I will still sell a car to (god help me, I get Edmunds leads everyday, and they are quality leads) by changing the tactic if I have to. (Remember, I said an educated customer is great to work with, and edmunds does that for you). I also know you inquired from Edmunds. Thats also why some people discuss a deal via the internet, and still walkin to a random salesperson pretending to be a fresh walkin. No you won't just walk out the door on me. Do you think I can't stand up when you do, apologize, change tactics, sit you back down and give you what you want if I have to? Like I said, your offer if realistic will get accepted. But if you dont want to disclose why its realistic, I'll play the game as long as I can. You wont leave without a car if your offer was realistic, dont worry.
Two years ago I was in the top 0.3% of car salespeople in the country for units sold, and this was also at a luxury brand that is much harder to sell to than lower cost brands. Every now and then they would be short handed at our sister dealer (Honda). They would pay us $250 to go there for the day, plus any commission earned. It was SUBSTANTIALLY easier to sell Hondas than german luxury cars. So I presume that if I was at a volume dealer I might just be one of the best in the country.. (I can show proof to the Edmunds moderator if theyre at all interested)
I think a lot of people are projecting what they do in EMAIL, and pretending theyd do that in person. I meet tough, ruthless, tricky people over email everyday. However, VERY FEW walkin customers are like that. So yes internet deals do get closed on the customers terms often (if theyre within the normal price constructs we discuss weekly in meetings). I suppose its easier for people to play tough guy over email when they are virtually anonymous, I cant blame them. Atleast car salespeople (good car salespeople) are brave enough to do it to your face
The only person that has a semi-valid point is Snakeweasel, except that it also actually agrees with exactly what I said.
I wish to go on record right now saying I do not agree with you. It is a mistake for someone to give how they came up with a figure. The only possible way I could have agreed with you is by saying that when the customer gives out that information it aids you in bumping up their offer without you giving anything in return. In short from the customers perspective it is a bad negotiating technique and should never be done.
If your reason is WEAK, or you GIVE NO REASON as many here would state is the best tactic, that then opens me up to go to work to find their weakness in their formula.
If your reason is weak or sound or even 100% perfect it still opens you up to find weaknesses be they real, imagined or created. When I was in sales and anyone gave me the formula of how they came up with a price I would always find something to use against them. Always, no matter how well their formula was. As you said as a salesman my duty was to get the highest price so no matter what I found something to attack. This allowed me to up their bid without any concessions on my part.
If you don't have the formula and only have a price you cannot do that.
I guarantee you after hundreds and thousands of attempts I have amassed a few more rebuttals, reasons, and tactics than a buyer.
No offense but you are simply selling cars, it's not rocket surgery you are negotiating the price of a car not the Treaty of Ghent.
Yes that sucks, but don't forget you're the one that went in there and asked to take a car home for less than MSRP
Ah but that wouldn't happen if dealers didn't start wheeling and dealing. If it was one price buying there would be no customers trying to get money off.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The salesman will then make a counter offer, usually starting from closer to MSRP, and justify it through many things. You'll probably go through many iterations of this.
Yep that's what happened to me with my last car, the salesman countered my offer and then tried to justify it. That was his mistake as I picked apart his justification and got my price. If he would have just countered the offer and nothing more he might have gotten more from me.
As for going through many iterations of it, not if you do it right and don't fall for a few tricks. I have rarely gone over 20 minutes in a car price negotiation.
And if you did that research, you could of gone about it in a better way as I outlined.
If I would do as you described any salesman worth his weight in used priced stickers would use that information to bump up my offer without giving anything in return.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Do you think I can't stand up when you do, apologize, change tactics, sit you back down and give you what you want if I have to?
No I don't but it may not work. Also if you do or say something that truly requires an apology you would never get my business in any way shape or form.
Like I said, your offer if realistic will get accepted. But if you dont want to disclose why its realistic, I'll play the game as long as I can.
If it is realistic accept it, just asking for justification for it is playing games. But if you want justification I will play that game, but on my terms. My justification might be "It's what I am willing to pay." And that's all the justification that's needed. I can justify just about any price, but if I won't pay it then it's meaningless.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Does it really matter where the buyer came up with the offer? I don't think it means anything....For the most part the majority of salespeople and consumers are poor negotiators and asking where the number came from is just adding to the misery of the whole process and benefits nobody.
The salesperson is probably working a command and control system which is run from a guy in the back room and can't make a decision about anything and the consumer read on the internet that some guy in east nowhere posted how he got $12K off the sticker on a $20K car so that must be a good place to start. HAHAHA.
I spent my entire career in sales. Mostly in sales management and sales training. I was a Regional Sales Manager for a fortune 300 company responsible for over 200 self employed business owners and 15 District Sales Managers. I had a 30 Million dollar P&L I was accountable for.
Out of six regions, mine was Number One.
I was a Division Manager for a large retailer at the age of 23.
But....NEVER did I learn about people and sales tactics until I got into the car business. I was humbled time and time again thinking I knew more about people, buying motivation and the tricks people played.
You see, I was used to being upfront and I expected that from others.
I knew that in order to excel (and I did) that I would have to switch gears and drop my old way of thinking.
I loved the "experts" that would try to outsmart me. I quickly learned when people coyly had a "hidden trade" to spring on me and I could usually (not always) know when I was dealing with a non-serious buyer.
It was fun. I met some wonderful people and in my final years, the bulk of my business came from repeat and referral customers.
Lastly, I picked a great store to work with. Family owned, decent people that tried to do the right thing. I got lucky.
When things were no longer fun and the markets changed for the worse, I retired early.
Snake, do not underestimate the abilities of a true professional in this business.
I never asked anyone how they came up with a price.
The number one thing any salesperson HAS to know is the fact that if the customer doesn't like you, he probably won't buy from you.
If he KNOWS you are trying to play games with him or project a sense that he doesn't know what he is talking about, that customer will probably just leave.
I know I would even if I had to pay a bit more elsewhere.
I tried to be as straightforward as possible. I hate BS too.
I am not underestimating the abilities of the true professionals in this business. I am just saying all you are doing is negotiating a purchase of a car. The truth be told that is rather low on the scale when it comes to negotiations. Try negotiating a Union contract some day.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
This is a problem I have run into since spring. I have been looking to replace my present vehicle. I tend to run into two situations that ends up completely wasting my time. I have had a very busy working season, and have tried to check out a few vehicles when I got a chance here and there throughout the summer. Only one afternoon was I able to rule out many vehicles at my local Ford dealer who had all of their cars unlocked and was allowed to check out anything I was curious about without being having a salesperson hover. If I am engaged in conversation, it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to let the car come into my present state of evaluation. I have a really bad back, so seats, their adjustment and dead foot pedals and driving position itself along with visibility all are high on my list to rule out or have on my short list.
So one dealer, Kia, had their cars unlocked but each time I try to go in to check anything out (these are all just seat tests...not even demo drives yet!) I am bombarded by a saleswoman who seems to always 'be there'. One day I drove right past the dealership to the back to ask a few questions at their body shop to see how well controlled is their entry point for air in the HVAC system (since I have had a vehicle literally written off due to mouse infestation and have found some vehicles more mouse-resistant than others and is about my highest priority...or at least the ability for me to make it mouseproof). Well damned if she musta had her eyes peeled on the front parking lot, cuz I just start to ask a guy outside detailing a new car, and here some comes in almost full jog..
And the Chrysler dealer had all their cars and trucks locked, and of course to go and get them unlocked means you have to go and find a salesperson who then is 'there' trying to sell a car...or even if they are not aggressive, just 'being there' is a distraction and again, it is a complete waste of time.
The GM dealer opened 4 cars I was interested in using the key fobs from the showrm window. Which worked pretty good for me, except that when I wanted to check out other trim levels within a model, to see if the seats differed in support even if adjustment was manual vs powered, I had to keep going back and having to ask to open up some others, but I didn't because he was then busy and I didn't have the time to wait around.
I have found the absolute BEST times are when they are busy and all the sales are tied up and if they happen to have a big showrm where you can check out the cars in A/C comfort without plastic on the seats and cardboard paper under feet. But that rarely ever happens. And when outside they are parked with the wheel at 6 and 12, dirty windshields and side glass with transport stickers all over the place, parked facing into the sun etc etc etc. And if they are parked 'accessible', I can't help but think that if I could have had a decent amount of 'alone time', I'd have bought a car by now.
So my question to those in the biz. What is the best approach/way to be able to have the cars unlocked, yet indicate somehow that I need to be allowed 'alone time' and that I will hunt them down when I have a question or when I am ready to test drive something?
Most dealers have a good selection on the showroom floor, which should enable you to narrow down your search. I would suggest you tell the salesperson you need time alone, ask for their card, and tell them you will see them if you have any questions. If approached by someone else, just tell them you're already being helped. Keep in mind they are just doing their jobs.
Dealers in many parts of the country never leave cars unlocked outside, for obvious reasons. I know we never did. And I would think that seat adjustment, dead foot pedals, driving position and visibility are going to be pretty much the same for each model line.
Once you get it narrowed down to a few models, perhaps you could rent each for a day or so to insure your initial impressions are valid.
Small town, the Chrysler dealer had room for only 2 vehicles. GM had 6, Ford had room for 3 but had them unlocked outside. Of your examples, the seat and adjustments I have learned to take nothing forgranted. Things like lumbar (nickel and diming) can be mysteriously absent just when you think that the trim level you want was decided. Visibility etc are all workable IF the cars are not outside and covered in dust. Or 120 degrees inside when you open the door.
As for narrowing down to a few models, that's a great idea, but that's my problem...I am so far away from being ABLE to narrow anything down...renting is far down the list.
As for them doing their jobs, I guess they are all a little more hungry around here as the over zealousness is discouragingly obvious.
BTW, dead foot pedals vary a LOT and due to my back its position and shape is crucial and again, not to be taken for granted. I've found. But it also is one of the things that I can usually make a work around by fabricating if rest of car working for me. The absolute worse I have run into was in a 65k $ Ford p/u. I'm average height, average inseam. This dead pedal would be a hard pressed to suit a person even if they were 6' 3". It lacked enough lean angle to push against. No excuse for that either. This was an expensive truck....altho I'm fairly sure that even the base truck had the same dead pedal...but to sit in a Ranger and think it will be the same, no way, or a Fiesta to a Focus or Fusion...they are all vastly different.
While its easy to say negotiating a car deal is easy.. like another experienced sales professional mentioned, it's not as easy as it looks even compared to corporate sales. I personally found Mechanical Engineering study and my first few years of work in the field easier than car sales by far. Which shouldn't be a surprise, thats why parents tell their kids to study and get good jobs. They are often 'easier' (once the effort for schooling has passed) and pay better.
I think negotiating one deal is easy. Anyone can master plan ONE event to the extreme and probably come out on top. The emotional warefare comes out in the day in and day out beating you eventually take, just like any other job. Except this one your actual take home pay is directly related, not like being on the clock for most people. For a salesperson, being just a little off usually means not making any money that day. Thats not the case for 95% of the general public.
For those that think its so easy, why don't you change industries and make a killing in car sales?
A poor car sales person makes almost minimum wage. A decent salesperson makes $50-100k in car sales. A great salesperson and negotiator makes $200k. Some of the best make $200-350k (I knew a lady making $30k a month, which I verified myself monthly as I wondered why I could only make $20k at the same store). I can only imagine that the expert 'I would just give it to them straight, no BS here sir!' people on this forum could be making even more! Step right up sir, show us how its done!
@gimmestdtranny The BEST easiest way to do what you want, is to go to a major car show and sit in all the cars for as long as you want. If you aren't near one, the second best way is to go to a dealership and speak to the person with real words. Here is an example "Hi Mike, thanks for coming to see if I need help. I do, but in a unique way. I would like these 5 cars here opened, and maybe even those 5 over there too. Then if possible, I'd like to be able to sit in them, look at them, touch them, for atleast an hour to see how my back feels. I'd like to do it alone if possible because I think better like that. At the last place, the salesperson TRIED to help, but it actually made it harder for me and I just had to leave. Do you think I could have an hour or two with the cars open all by myself? Thanks!"
If you said that to me, I would love you. I'd open the cars, give you my card, tell you where I'll be sitting inside, and go back to my other work of calling and email customers.
If you didnt say that, I would be extremely annoyed as I stood there with you watching you space out on the dead pedal placement, wishing I could leave you alone
"thats why parents tell their kids to study and get good jobs."
Yep..and the translation to that great advice by parents would be..
"Go to school, study real hard and join the rat race" (Robert Kiyosaki)
Depending on corporate America to get ahead and stay ahead is a grave error. The highest paid people on the planet are sales people. Nothing..absolutely nothing happens in this country w/o something being sold.
Sounds like a good approach. In a more perfect world, you would have the keys to be able to start the engine, or at least have accessory power in each. Of course, then the concern is a little more involved that if they don't know you, the car could be driven away.
Yesterday I was able to sit in a few Hondas. All the anti-whiplash head restraints are really making a vehicle choice difficult. With my seating position (fairly upright seatback) they (all brands) are way too intrusive. Amazingly, the 2013 Civic had the MOST accommodating head restraint in any modern car or truck I have sat in in probably about 8 years. Unfortunately the seat position even cranked as high as it will go, leaves you feeling like you are dragging your butt and adds to poor visibility which in the past has never been a Civic weakness. In fact Honda is more famous for their lower beltlines. Noticed the same thing in the new Accord but to a lesser degree. The Fit, actually had among the best seating position in these ways but the seat belt scruffed my neck (as did every single Honda I sat in practically) (yes I had the adjustments in place to reduce the possibility...low on the B pillar) and its head restraints were still 'right there' not allowing you to move your head back for stretch more than 1/4" if that. All the seat bases (except for the Ridgeline and assumedly the Pilot and Odyssey?) were too short. I think Honda is getting worse in these ways. It's getting so they suit petite women the best.
And what is with these frig mfgrs that insist we all want a gall dang sunroof? All the frig Civics had sunroofs on any trim level higher than base with A/C as OEM factory. This is WORSE than what the Koreans and Subaru has been doing lately. Bloody sunroofs should be a STAND ALONE option on anything from a Yaris to an S class. Ironically I can get a GLK equipped with their best high end sound system yet NOT be saddled with frig sunroof. Props to ya MB.
Not sure why you would feel annoyed if a customer is trying to concentrate on something in the car that's important to them.
I have to say that in the almost 14 years I spent in the car business and of all of the thousands of customers I dealt with, I NEVER ONCE had a customer ask me to open five cars so they could spend at least an hour with them.
Had someone asked I would have done this but never did this happen nor did I hear of any other salesperson being given such a request.
Come to think of it, I never had anyone mention anything about the dead pedal either.
From that, one could deduce that possibly you had it pretty easy in sales, then.
And it would seem that you never had a customer who had joint pain and spinal deficiencies. Or maybe you had customers who ended up purchasing a car and never let on later that they made a less than satisfactory choice.
But another consideration too, is that dead pedals and their design is more prevalent since you retired.
Perhaps this would support the old theory that ignorance is bliss.
Of course, your findings and my priorities are merely stats that sometimes means more to some than others.
I've never had a job that was "pretty easy". The "easy" jobs don't pay much.
I never went a week without seeing or hearing something I had never heard before in the car business and had I received a request like yours, I would have been happy to comply and it would have been a first.
I once had a woman reject a used car because she didn't like the way the horn sounded!
She narrowed down her choices to three nice used cars we had and picked the right one by blowing the horns and found one to her liking!
I've only been gone three years and I kinda doubt that dead pedals have changed that much.
Everyone has different priorities and what is of zero importance to 99% of the shoppers it can become the MAIN factor in buying or not buying a car.
If you sensed I took offense, it was because of the upper case use and the context in which it was used. And was backed up by also pointing out that no one else had ever considered dead pedal positioning.
I do my best to be thorough when I car shop. And I also do a check list of things that, regardless of their level of importance, I try to address in the new car that agros me in my last car and prioritize accordingly. And some of these things are important things, like a seatbelt that doesn't scruff against my neck, or a dead pedal that not only isn't wide enough to support my big foot, but angled properly too. And positioned in a wide enough stance too in relation to the gas pedal. Hell, some dead foot pedals actually angle down towards the floor in the direction of the brake pedal. If I can't retro a fix for that (through my own skills) so that I can get a wide, flat support for my foot (which = back support also), then that is a deal breaker no matter how much else I may like about the car.
My routine saves miles on new cars. Many can be ruled out parked right there in the dealer's lot. This not only saves wasted time with a salesman 'going for a for a drive' in this one, then that one, then the next one..it saves miles on the car, saves dealership gas bills etc etc. I would think any salesman and dealership would appreciate my technique/practice if more car shoppers practiced this same routine. I know if I was in sales, I sure would. I could be selling a car to a different customer while my other one was busy sit testing in the parking lot. It's just such an obvious no-brainer win win.
The other day I was in my local Honda dealership and was reading the window spec sheet on the new Accord when along comes a salesman (I know him and have bought from him before but he is a clutch burner, so not overly enthused with his skills are autos) with a potential customer and her daughter in tow. She was a dear sweet soul, I'd say about 78 or so and what I think was still a fairly safe driver after chatting with her about 10 minutes later when he went to get something. He had left her in the car and she was trying to adjust the seat up cuz she was so short, and her daughter was just looking on. I helped find the power seat control and raised her up and showed her how to finetune to her liking. But he other BIG thing was, I asked her if she would like me to close the door so that she can actually feel what the car feels like if she were driving it. And she looked up at me so sweet and appreciative and said, oh thank you so much, I had wanted to before and then I forgot cuz he was leaning on it and I do so want to see out and check the mirrors etc.
So sometimes it is the little, (obvious to some..not so much to others) things that make a good sales experience. If I were a salesman, I wouldn't dream of not even asking her if she would like the door closed. Maybe I should have been a car saleman. I think I would have made a great one. The one thing that always nagged away at me though about that profession, is that is mostly geared on commission. And if I did well, or quite well, on a sale, then that came right outta the pockets of the person who was entrusting me. I see a sales position like car sales especially, as one of always being engaged in a conflict of interest.
Comments
example, If the dealer has overhead of $1500 per car sold and only brings in $1200 gross profit the business owner is losing money.
Car manufacturers put tremendous pressure on dealers to spend huge sums of money from a fancy building that might cost $15 million to a special tool that is used 3x a year for $5000.
Also, for anyone who purchases from a traditional dealership that haggles the selling price.. the only way somebody gets a "super low" price is because somebody else over paid, essentially subsidizing the so called smarter shopper...nothing wrong with this but its reality.
I'm not an advocate of people blindly falling down on the desk and spending money foolishly at the dealership but having a full understanding of the total financial picture gives a better understanding of things.
Ergo: the dealer should not be fettered and be free to make what he can honestly make. The customer has the duty to keep the dealer honest, or walk. If the dealer is crooked, that's where reporting to the regulatory agencies can and should help.
It's funny. I think every shopper would agree that a store HAS to make a decent profit but they don't think they should be the one to pay that profit.
They grind and grind and then complain that the process "took too long".
An interesting business. I miss the people I worked with and I miss my wonderful customers but I do NOT miss the mooches!
In many cases, “honest” (when you boil it down) is about adhering to the letter of the law, not about doing the “right thing” or the “moral thing”. So if the dealer’s only responsibility is to not break the letter of the law, then you need laws which will restrain the business, the car dealer or whomever, from screwing the customer.
Take, for instance, real estate. If you’re selling a house which has ever been infested by termites, you have to disclose that fact to the potential buyer. It’s a matter of law. If the lot the house sits on is in the 100 year flood plain, you have to tell the buyer. You, as a conservative, probably see that as “restraint of capitalism”. Myself, as a liberal, and a home buyer, am very very happy to have that protection built into the process. And I would like to see more such protections built into the car sales business.
Quite frankly there would be no debate If consumers would "walk away" from sleazy retailers and not reward their bad behavior with a sale...there would be a lot less stress when buying a car.
I have had consumers tell me they will put up with abuse, lying, underhanded business practices, endless back and forth haggling and anything else to save a couple hundred bucks. I don't get it.
As has been posted many times and published many times, buyers should never negotiate from the dealer's price offer. Rather buyers should negotiate from a price they are willing to pay. Perhaps the most effective way to develop a price objective is to start at invoice, reduce that by all incentives, and negotiate up from that amount. I have yet to read anything posted by any of the dealers on this forum which truly suggests otherwise.
Of course dealers could make the process more transparent and provide their cost and price data to the buyer. The buyer could then review that data to develop a true fair and reasonable purchase price. Dealers could provide cost data such as the actual amount they pay the OEM, the overhead and general administrative costs the incur on an annual basis, and the total amount they pay the OEM for all vehicles. With such information, an astute buyer could easily compute a fair and reasonable purchase price.
Obviously dealers will not provide such data. Therefore, we buyers need to use whatever information we do have available to develop our price objective and negotiate solely from that amount.
That means buyers must rely on more general price, rather than cost, data to develop a fair and reasonable price. As you allude, a few of us buyers understand this approach and we probably do benefit from those buyers who do not.
One final comment, anyone buying from a no haggle dealership paid too much, period. Without negotiation, the best price is impossible. The only folks who will argue his are the dealer types lurking on this forum.
I do not sell Hondas.
Maybe EVERY retail operation should post their costs, payroll, overhead costs etc and just let people offer what they think is "fair".
For a lot of people "fair" means the store should break even or even lose money. Do you think a 10% markup is "fair"? I mean, even Costco operates on a 5-15% markup and their stores are packed.
So on a 25,000 car, a dealer would make 2500.00? Too much? How about a 5% markup? 1250.00 profit? Still too much? Please, tell me what you would consider to be "fair". I'm curious.
On your final comment...first of all, I don't "lurk" in these forums. I speak up when I can help someone or when I feel I need to respond.
I realize this may be hard for some to understand but there are a lot of people out there who despise negotiating. They don't want to call 20 stores. They don't want to spend hours pitting one store against others. They don't want to sit and grind for three hours.
They simply want a good deal and they want to be treated in a straightforward, honest manner. If a "no dicker" store gives them a reasonable discount and makes the process easy, then they didn't "pay too much". These people leave the store happy and with the feeling they got a good price. They are content with their process and life in general it seems. These are the people who give good surveys and refer their friends and neighbors.
I know...I concept some people can't comprehend.
It's all about PRICE!
P.S. The "best" price can always be beaten!
I rarely find that the lowest price provides me with an acceptable experience. It always seems the ole saying "you get what you pay for" always rings true when I look for the lowest possible price of anything.
You say that anyone buying from a no haggle dealership paid too much.....Really? What makes you so sure that by negotiating the best possible price is guaranteed? I have seen plenty of people negotiate themselves into terrible deals. I see it happen all the time.
I honestly think we are dinosaurs from a different time.
I have come to grips after reading these forums that PRICE trumps everything else. People will drive great distances, put up with sleazy stores and salespeople endure all of the slimy tricks and lies....IF, they can get what they think is the lowest price.
Seems like a miserable way to go through life but, what do I know?
It's the "new & improved we know better than all the prior generation" crowd we have raised. LOL
I've had people willing to drive 150-200 miles to a major metro area to look at several cars and they come back empty handed; beaten and battered! LMAO
My customers tell me how the sales person mis-represented the vehicle over the phone. Hmm?..OK
Not too much different than the "smart" ones who walk in with their KBB under their arm as though it were a sword ready to do battle..I just smile and ask them if KBB is writing the check for their purchase?
I've had people willing to drive 150-200 miles to a major metro area to look at several cars and they come back empty handed; beaten and battered! LMAO
When I read this, I maintain that my caution flags would be waving their highest when dealing with someone who takes so much obvious pleasure in someone else's pain.
There has to be a happy line towed in there some place right?
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Here is one of many problems with that.
1 The consumer's "education" is based on (other) companies who claim to be helping the customer. The definition of the word "helping" is (Make Money) in America today.
These consumer advocacy type groups research info that will help them get YOU as a customer.
You say the consumer is "out of their element".
This presents problem #2.
2) The car buyer lies 10X more than the sales staff for just the reason you mention; they are out of their element and afraid. They feel not only out of their element, but out of control.
This feeling breeds what the consumer believes is a RIGHT to lie to protect themselves. In essence it only makes the process worse. It is a lose-Lose scenario for them.
When I first began selling cars my conscience bothered me that I was making so much money per sale. So, I made a decision to limit my gross to a low level believing the customer would respect this and buy from me.
GUESS WHAT?
I heard the same lame excuses and experienced the same grinding down of the price. Nothing changed except my pay check!
Truth? Consumers don't want truth. They like the game. It's the American way; not only in car sales but in everything in life. We live in a frightened poorly educated country as a whole who have so much pride as to NOT be able to recognize their down fall due to nothing more than sheer ignorance from the blinding light of pride.
Life is tough. Period. We live in a country of whiners now more than ever and EVERYONE; and I do mean everyone wants more money out of their job.
Good grief..even the fast food industry now wants $15/hr! I don;t begrudge then for trying..The only difference is they won't get it and I continue to make a ton of money off the arrogance of people who come to my dealership spouting their superior research skills.
You may not like what you hear; yet the truth remains.
If you want to change the auto sales process/industry, may I suggest you look to the greed of mankind overall and not the car salesman.
The problem comes when people are semi-informed, or just half retarded (people who combine every piece of info from 7 sources over 2 years and want to pick and choose the info that helps their case only).
If you try to get well below the average price we sell for, you will have an uphill battle.
Why would I sell a car to you for below average when statistics dictate later in the day someone else will come in and pay more?
Most small to medium dealerships sell 100 cars a month between new and used. That means 3 a day. (ok, yes weekends skew the numbers) If you're offer at 2pm sucks, thats ok, well sell another one at 6pm. If you offer crazy numbers at 8:52pm, we'll go home because we know 20 more customers and 3 more sales are coming tomorrow. Most dealerships and manufacturers have improved their model from 5-50 years ago. They no longer PUSH insane amounts of inventory on dealers. Most brands are using a pull system where dealerships barely have enough cars to last them comfortably. You may have noticed this through "wow, why cant I find a gray one with nav ANYWHERE in the state? I dont get it." or "where are the previous model year sales? why cant I get a last model year car for $6000 off in October? What do you mean they sold out in August?" And many more examples that the systems and tides have changed.
Want to avoid all crazy negotiations? Offer and pay within the normal range.
Want to be special and pay hundreds or thousands less than most? FINE. But dont come and write about terrible negotiations, managers, time lost, yada yada. You're literally asking a dealership to make a special concession just for you, for some unknown reason. YOU get to pay less apparently? Fine, if you can convince us I suppose. Everyone now and then it happens. But 75% of the time it just wastes the salesman time. Weak salesman waste the majority of their time dealing with customers like this. Luckily I learned early on how to send them through the ringer quicker, and was able to make a fantastic living far beyond what I could as an engineer.
I fight that battle all the time as well. The KBB, Consumer Reports, Internet folks who have "done their research" and believe everything they have heard, been told and read. Yet, all they have done is get themselves into a position where they won't get the car they want because someone told them how much it "should cost".
I have to ask why does how I came up with the price have anything to do with it? I could have done my research, asked someone who bought one or pulled it out of my a** it shouldn't matter. A reasonable price is a reasonable price.
If I come in and say "I'll give you $25,000 for that sludgemobile" you should be able to say yes or no based solely on that.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Just to make it clear, I never lie and I think it's a lousy strategy for selling, buying, or life. Once I heard a character on a TV show said he never lied because it's too hard to keep track of ones tales, I like that very much. However, I understand why so many people feel they have to. They really don't, but they think they do.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
If you come in and say you want $2000 off MSRP, I would be doing my job poorly if I just said OK. My job is to get you to pay more. You as a customer do not want to go through this entire process of watching me try to extract a higher price from you right? Then simply tell me how you obtained the number, why you think its fair, and that this is the deal it needs to be since you know this is a realistic offer you can get somewhere else also. If that is what you say, I have nothing left to fight on. I would have to be an idiot to try to get you to pay more, when you have good evidence that you dont need to. I then concede I am working with an educated and correct customer, and most likely there is nothing to be gained by using my tactics gained from thousands of negotiations.
OR, you say you want $2000 off because thats what you got on your last car, so you want it again. That is such a lame reason that I can fight it. And most of the time I get you to pay more. (Maybe you think Im playing keyboard hero here, but I promise Im pretty good at my job).
Does that explain it? I need to know the reason to know what Im up against. Because you are asking for a discount off an already fair asking price. You trust Honda (random example) to build a safe and dependable car, but you apparently don't trust them to name the price fairly. So now you want a discount... fine. But you have to have a good reason. Some reasons are beatable, some are not. And I promise you "Research shows this is a price you or your competition sells this car for, so give it to me now without trouble" is FAR FAR better than "This is just my number. Its a combination of my expectations, zodiac sign, hearsay, current savings account balance, my 401ks performance, and its raining outside so you guys should be more motivated to my price"
So regardless of how I got the figure the deal is either doable or it's not.
There is always another Buyota Benz dealership down the road.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If everybody walked to a showroom and said "OK, Mr. Salesman, I trust Honda's judgment on this Civic, I will pay what's on this window", next thing they'll see is a contract with MSRP on it, preprinted $799 fee for this, $99 fee for that, and $10 fee for something else (real example from my Town), THEN you'll inform them that there is a paint sealer, rustproofing and seat protection package ALREADY installed on this car (and of course on every car on your lot) for mere $499 (who doesn't want such valuable package, right?). THEN your S&I guy will pull a piece of paper showing a "Extra Platinum Super Safe and Nobody Comes Close" protection package with all those great financial products, like extended warranty, GAP, and so on, "tailored especially for you, Mr. Customer", because "we all want to protect our investment". Oh, those payments will also be based on our last special interest rate of 6%. Let's not be a grinder, what is extra $50 on interest. Before you know it, a roughly $20K MSRP car turns into $25K car and that's even before interest.
So forgive me, if I call baloney on your assertions of the "fair" price. It might be fair in a vacuum, or in most other retailers. There are plenty of stores not discounting their products and people buy them. However, those stores usually don't charge "shelf fee", "salesman presence fee". Some of course also try to sell extended warranties or financing, but except some (not all) furniture and appliance stores, those sales attempts are nearly not as aggressive as those in car stores. Agreeing to pay sticker upfront in a car store is perceived to be equivalent to wearing a T-shirt with "I'm a sucker extraordinaire, just waiting to be relieved of the last penny any way you can think of" written on both front and back.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
If I let her, my wife would buy me Nautica shirts for $65 (to fit my mature figure...lol).. It's a nice shirt, but it's not $65 nice.. At the end of the season and with her Macy's card, I get them for around $20...
So.. sure, I trust Nautica and Macy's.. just not with my money... Same goes for car dealers/manufacturers.. ;-)
By the way... explaining to a salesperson how you came up with your price is probably the worst thing you can do... Just read why above...
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BTW, the ubiquitous presence of cash and other incentives is the proof of MSRPs being too high. The market is conditioned to the point MSRP means almost nothing.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
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Exactly, all it is doing is giving the salesman opportunity to bump up your price without giving a counter offer. When I was in sales if someone came to me and explained how they got the price all I would do was look for weaknesses in their formula. Even if there were none I would make stuff up, find anything to say "Oh there is your problem" so I can get their bid up. Just a figure is all they really need.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If you are CORRECT with your price offer through current research, I will not be able to find 'weaknesses in their formula'.
If your reason is WEAK, or you GIVE NO REASON as many here would state is the best tactic, that then opens me up to go to work to find their weakness in their formula. Not telling me ANY REASON just lets me start the conversation on my terms, and I guarantee you after hundreds and thousands of attempts I have amassed a few more rebuttals, reasons, and tactics than a buyer.
In the other subject, the fact that someone says they would pay MSRP if only dealers removed all their crazy fees, and especially the finance products, cracks me up. I dont think THOSE are the reasons why people negotiate. I also HATE large dealer fees only because it is an artificial negotiating point that hopes you'll gloss over it and pay it. Its lame and deceitful. I havent worked at a dealer that had those since California doesnt allow anything over a $55 doc fee. Also, if you really have such a problem with finance products, simply turn them down. Say No thank you. Yes, you'll have to say it several times. Yes that sucks, but don't forget you're the one that went in there and asked to take a car home for less than MSRP, so if they have to do you favors to buy a car, don't you think you owe them something also? And no, these days simply buying the car is not you doing something for them. Heck, when I shop at the North Face Outlet during their big Demo Sale, I have to sift through BOXES of clothes to find what I like and hopefully my size. I don't complain, because its at a reduced price. Full price is a few towns over in a nice store with hangers and every size labeled. If I want a great experience, in and out, I pay full price. If I want a discount, sale, yada yada, you have to compromise something. I promise you, if you walk in and say "I'll buy this car right now at MSRP, plus tax and license, but I don't want to be pitched any products in finance" theyll do it for you. Heck, they'll do that for you for almost ANY fair price if you've been reasonable. It's only when you start getting prices that are below average that you start being treated like a disposable customer, because at that price you often are.
You are only seeing this from your side of the equation.. You talk to 10 people in a day, sell one of them a car, you've had a good day.. then, do it again tomorrow...
Most of us only buy a car once every couple of years. We may not have the negotiating experience that you do, but we aren't worried about our success rate, either. When I get what you describe in the paragraph quoted above, I'll be out the door in five minutes and off to buy a car somewhere else, where I don't have to listen to salesperson BS.. I can do the research, come up with a fair, achievable price, and find someone to sell me a car... all without your song and dance. And, so can the other 9 people that didn't buy a car from you, today..
regards,
kyfdx
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To a car salesman, no, no way. “Here is my offer. Take it or make me a counter-offer.” No way am I going to try and justify my offer. The salesman will just find some way to twist things around and try to use it against me.
The salesman will then make a counter offer, usually starting from closer to MSRP, and justify it through many things. You'll probably go through many iterations of this.
It will probably work on you, and your offer will rise. OR, if you said what I gave as an example text, and you were correct about the information, you would have bought the car on the first go around.
He will of course make a counter offer. Thats his job.
The only times I've accepted offers based on the first go around like that is when they are in effect higher than average and I am just too tired/wore out/in a hurry to do my job properly. I suppose you can hope to get lucky like that. Still doesn't mean you got a good deal unless you did the proper research. And if you did that research, you could of gone about it in a better way as I outlined.
You'll probably miss majority of those in this forum, who want a simple yes/no/here is what I can do. As long as you hit your target rate you are fine in your own set of criteria. At the end that's all that counts - you sold enough and made money, the other people who didn't buy from you possibly found a store that can deal with them in a different manner. Everybody is happy at the end.
On other subject, I'm glad you hate large fees, too. However, that's reality in my neighborhood, where over 90% of franchise dealers use those fees and also large percentage of dealers use mop and glo preinstalled on their stock. In other words, don't move to Florida, or you'll have to put a brave face to local practices.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Two years ago I was in the top 0.3% of car salespeople in the country for units sold, and this was also at a luxury brand that is much harder to sell to than lower cost brands. Every now and then they would be short handed at our sister dealer (Honda). They would pay us $250 to go there for the day, plus any commission earned. It was SUBSTANTIALLY easier to sell Hondas than german luxury cars. So I presume that if I was at a volume dealer I might just be one of the best in the country.. (I can show proof to the Edmunds moderator if theyre at all interested)
I think a lot of people are projecting what they do in EMAIL, and pretending theyd do that in person. I meet tough, ruthless, tricky people over email everyday. However, VERY FEW walkin customers are like that. So yes internet deals do get closed on the customers terms often (if theyre within the normal price constructs we discuss weekly in meetings). I suppose its easier for people to play tough guy over email when they are virtually anonymous, I cant blame them. Atleast car salespeople (good car salespeople) are brave enough to do it to your face
I wish to go on record right now saying I do not agree with you. It is a mistake for someone to give how they came up with a figure. The only possible way I could have agreed with you is by saying that when the customer gives out that information it aids you in bumping up their offer without you giving anything in return. In short from the customers perspective it is a bad negotiating technique and should never be done.
If your reason is WEAK, or you GIVE NO REASON as many here would state is the best tactic, that then opens me up to go to work to find their weakness in their formula.
If your reason is weak or sound or even 100% perfect it still opens you up to find weaknesses be they real, imagined or created. When I was in sales and anyone gave me the formula of how they came up with a price I would always find something to use against them. Always, no matter how well their formula was. As you said as a salesman my duty was to get the highest price so no matter what I found something to attack. This allowed me to up their bid without any concessions on my part.
If you don't have the formula and only have a price you cannot do that.
I guarantee you after hundreds and thousands of attempts I have amassed a few more rebuttals, reasons, and tactics than a buyer.
No offense but you are simply selling cars, it's not rocket surgery you are negotiating the price of a car not the Treaty of Ghent.
Yes that sucks, but don't forget you're the one that went in there and asked to take a car home for less than MSRP
Ah but that wouldn't happen if dealers didn't start wheeling and dealing. If it was one price buying there would be no customers trying to get money off.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Yep that's what happened to me with my last car, the salesman countered my offer and then tried to justify it. That was his mistake as I picked apart his justification and got my price. If he would have just countered the offer and nothing more he might have gotten more from me.
As for going through many iterations of it, not if you do it right and don't fall for a few tricks. I have rarely gone over 20 minutes in a car price negotiation.
And if you did that research, you could of gone about it in a better way as I outlined.
If I would do as you described any salesman worth his weight in used priced stickers would use that information to bump up my offer without giving anything in return.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Wanna bet on that one?
Do you think I can't stand up when you do, apologize, change tactics, sit you back down and give you what you want if I have to?
No I don't but it may not work. Also if you do or say something that truly requires an apology you would never get my business in any way shape or form.
Like I said, your offer if realistic will get accepted. But if you dont want to disclose why its realistic, I'll play the game as long as I can.
If it is realistic accept it, just asking for justification for it is playing games. But if you want justification I will play that game, but on my terms. My justification might be "It's what I am willing to pay." And that's all the justification that's needed. I can justify just about any price, but if I won't pay it then it's meaningless.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The salesperson is probably working a command and control system which is run from a guy in the back room and can't make a decision about anything and the consumer read on the internet that some guy in east nowhere posted how he got $12K off the sticker on a $20K car so that must be a good place to start. HAHAHA.
No offense intended....really?
I spent my entire career in sales. Mostly in sales management and sales training. I was a Regional Sales Manager for a fortune 300 company responsible for over 200 self employed business owners and 15 District Sales Managers. I had a 30 Million dollar P&L I was accountable for.
Out of six regions, mine was Number One.
I was a Division Manager for a large retailer at the age of 23.
But....NEVER did I learn about people and sales tactics until I got into the car business. I was humbled time and time again thinking I knew more about people, buying motivation and the tricks people played.
You see, I was used to being upfront and I expected that from others.
I knew that in order to excel (and I did) that I would have to switch gears and drop my old way of thinking.
I loved the "experts" that would try to outsmart me. I quickly learned when people coyly had a "hidden trade" to spring on me and I could usually (not always) know when I was dealing with a non-serious buyer.
It was fun. I met some wonderful people and in my final years, the bulk of my business came from repeat and referral customers.
Lastly, I picked a great store to work with. Family owned, decent people that tried to do the right thing. I got lucky.
When things were no longer fun and the markets changed for the worse, I retired early.
Snake, do not underestimate the abilities of a true professional in this business.
The number one thing any salesperson HAS to know is the fact that if the customer doesn't like you, he probably won't buy from you.
If he KNOWS you are trying to play games with him or project a sense that he doesn't know what he is talking about, that customer will probably just leave.
I know I would even if I had to pay a bit more elsewhere.
I tried to be as straightforward as possible. I hate BS too.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Why stop there? Try negotiating a non-nuclear treaty with Kim Jong-un.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
So one dealer, Kia, had their cars unlocked but each time I try to go in to check anything out (these are all just seat tests...not even demo drives yet!) I am bombarded by a saleswoman who seems to always 'be there'. One day I drove right past the dealership to the back to ask a few questions at their body shop to see how well controlled is their entry point for air in the HVAC system (since I have had a vehicle literally written off due to mouse infestation and have found some vehicles more mouse-resistant than others and is about my highest priority...or at least the ability for me to make it mouseproof). Well damned if she musta had her eyes peeled on the front parking lot, cuz I just start to ask a guy outside detailing a new car, and here some comes in almost full jog..
And the Chrysler dealer had all their cars and trucks locked, and of course to go and get them unlocked means you have to go and find a salesperson who then is 'there' trying to sell a car...or even if they are not aggressive, just 'being there' is a distraction and again, it is a complete waste of time.
The GM dealer opened 4 cars I was interested in using the key fobs from the showrm window. Which worked pretty good for me, except that when I wanted to check out other trim levels within a model, to see if the seats differed in support even if adjustment was manual vs powered, I had to keep going back and having to ask to open up some others, but I didn't because he was then busy and I didn't have the time to wait around.
I have found the absolute BEST times are when they are busy and all the sales are tied up and if they happen to have a big showrm where you can check out the cars in A/C comfort without plastic on the seats and cardboard paper under feet. But that rarely ever happens. And when outside they are parked with the wheel at 6 and 12, dirty windshields and side glass with transport stickers all over the place, parked facing into the sun etc etc etc. And if they are parked 'accessible', I can't help but think that if I could have had a decent amount of 'alone time', I'd have bought a car by now.
So my question to those in the biz. What is the best approach/way to be able to have the cars unlocked, yet indicate somehow that I need to be allowed 'alone time' and that I will hunt them down when I have a question or when I am ready to test drive something?
Dealers in many parts of the country never leave cars unlocked outside, for obvious reasons. I know we never did. And I would think that seat adjustment, dead foot pedals, driving position and visibility are going to be pretty much the same for each model line.
Once you get it narrowed down to a few models, perhaps you could rent each for a day or so to insure your initial impressions are valid.
As for narrowing down to a few models, that's a great idea, but that's my problem...I am so far away from being ABLE to narrow anything down...renting is far down the list.
As for them doing their jobs, I guess they are all a little more hungry around here as the over zealousness is discouragingly obvious.
BTW, dead foot pedals vary a LOT and due to my back its position and shape is crucial and again, not to be taken for granted. I've found. But it also is one of the things that I can usually make a work around by fabricating if rest of car working for me. The absolute worse I have run into was in a 65k $ Ford p/u. I'm average height, average inseam. This dead pedal would be a hard pressed to suit a person even if they were 6' 3". It lacked enough lean angle to push against. No excuse for that either. This was an expensive truck....altho I'm fairly sure that even the base truck had the same dead pedal...but to sit in a Ranger and think it will be the same, no way, or a Fiesta to a Focus or Fusion...they are all vastly different.
I think negotiating one deal is easy. Anyone can master plan ONE event to the extreme and probably come out on top. The emotional warefare comes out in the day in and day out beating you eventually take, just like any other job. Except this one your actual take home pay is directly related, not like being on the clock for most people. For a salesperson, being just a little off usually means not making any money that day. Thats not the case for 95% of the general public.
For those that think its so easy, why don't you change industries and make a killing in car sales?
A poor car sales person makes almost minimum wage. A decent salesperson makes $50-100k in car sales. A great salesperson and negotiator makes $200k. Some of the best make $200-350k (I knew a lady making $30k a month, which I verified myself monthly as I wondered why I could only make $20k at the same store). I can only imagine that the expert 'I would just give it to them straight, no BS here sir!' people on this forum could be making even more! Step right up sir, show us how its done!
The BEST easiest way to do what you want, is to go to a major car show and sit in all the cars for as long as you want. If you aren't near one, the second best way is to go to a dealership and speak to the person with real words. Here is an example "Hi Mike, thanks for coming to see if I need help. I do, but in a unique way. I would like these 5 cars here opened, and maybe even those 5 over there too. Then if possible, I'd like to be able to sit in them, look at them, touch them, for atleast an hour to see how my back feels. I'd like to do it alone if possible because I think better like that. At the last place, the salesperson TRIED to help, but it actually made it harder for me and I just had to leave. Do you think I could have an hour or two with the cars open all by myself? Thanks!"
If you said that to me, I would love you. I'd open the cars, give you my card, tell you where I'll be sitting inside, and go back to my other work of calling and email customers.
If you didnt say that, I would be extremely annoyed as I stood there with you watching you space out on the dead pedal placement, wishing I could leave you alone
Yep..and the translation to that great advice by parents would be..
"Go to school, study real hard and join the rat race" (Robert Kiyosaki)
Depending on corporate America to get ahead and stay ahead is a grave error.
The highest paid people on the planet are sales people.
Nothing..absolutely nothing happens in this country w/o something being sold.
Yesterday I was able to sit in a few Hondas. All the anti-whiplash head restraints are really making a vehicle choice difficult. With my seating position (fairly upright seatback) they (all brands) are way too intrusive. Amazingly, the 2013 Civic had the MOST accommodating head restraint in any modern car or truck I have sat in in probably about 8 years. Unfortunately the seat position even cranked as high as it will go, leaves you feeling like you are dragging your butt and adds to poor visibility which in the past has never been a Civic weakness. In fact Honda is more famous for their lower beltlines. Noticed the same thing in the new Accord but to a lesser degree. The Fit, actually had among the best seating position in these ways but the seat belt scruffed my neck (as did every single Honda I sat in practically) (yes I had the adjustments in place to reduce the possibility...low on the B pillar) and its head restraints were still 'right there' not allowing you to move your head back for stretch more than 1/4" if that. All the seat bases (except for the Ridgeline and assumedly the Pilot and Odyssey?) were too short. I think Honda is getting worse in these ways. It's getting so they suit petite women the best.
And what is with these frig mfgrs that insist we all want a gall dang sunroof? All the frig Civics had sunroofs on any trim level higher than base with A/C as OEM factory. This is WORSE than what the Koreans and Subaru has been doing lately. Bloody sunroofs should be a STAND ALONE option on anything from a Yaris to an S class. Ironically I can get a GLK equipped with their best high end sound system yet NOT be saddled with frig sunroof. Props to ya MB.
Not sure why you would feel annoyed if a customer is trying to concentrate on something in the car that's important to them.
Had someone asked I would have done this but never did this happen nor did I hear of any other salesperson being given such a request.
Come to think of it, I never had anyone mention anything about the dead pedal either.
And it would seem that you never had a customer who had joint pain and spinal deficiencies. Or maybe you had customers who ended up purchasing a car and never let on later that they made a less than satisfactory choice.
But another consideration too, is that dead pedals and their design is more prevalent since you retired.
Perhaps this would support the old theory that ignorance is bliss.
Of course, your findings and my priorities are merely stats that sometimes means more to some than others.
MOV (mileage obviously varies)
I never went a week without seeing or hearing something I had never heard before in the car business and had I received a request like yours, I would have been happy to comply and it would have been a first.
I once had a woman reject a used car because she didn't like the way the horn sounded!
She narrowed down her choices to three nice used cars we had and picked the right one by blowing the horns and found one to her liking!
I've only been gone three years and I kinda doubt that dead pedals have changed that much.
Everyone has different priorities and what is of zero importance to 99% of the shoppers it can become the MAIN factor in buying or not buying a car.
That was my only point.
I do my best to be thorough when I car shop. And I also do a check list of things that, regardless of their level of importance, I try to address in the new car that agros me in my last car and prioritize accordingly. And some of these things are important things, like a seatbelt that doesn't scruff against my neck, or a dead pedal that not only isn't wide enough to support my big foot, but angled properly too. And positioned in a wide enough stance too in relation to the gas pedal. Hell, some dead foot pedals actually angle down towards the floor in the direction of the brake pedal. If I can't retro a fix for that (through my own skills) so that I can get a wide, flat support for my foot (which = back support also), then that is a deal breaker no matter how much else I may like about the car.
My routine saves miles on new cars. Many can be ruled out parked right there in the dealer's lot. This not only saves wasted time with a salesman 'going for a for a drive' in this one, then that one, then the next one..it saves miles on the car, saves dealership gas bills etc etc. I would think any salesman and dealership would appreciate my technique/practice if more car shoppers practiced this same routine. I know if I was in sales, I sure would. I could be selling a car to a different customer while my other one was busy sit testing in the parking lot. It's just such an obvious no-brainer win win.
The other day I was in my local Honda dealership and was reading the window spec sheet on the new Accord when along comes a salesman (I know him and have bought from him before but he is a clutch burner, so not overly enthused with his skills are autos) with a potential customer and her daughter in tow. She was a dear sweet soul, I'd say about 78 or so and what I think was still a fairly safe driver after chatting with her about 10 minutes later when he went to get something. He had left her in the car and she was trying to adjust the seat up cuz she was so short, and her daughter was just looking on. I helped find the power seat control and raised her up and showed her how to finetune to her liking. But he other BIG thing was, I asked her if she would like me to close the door so that she can actually feel what the car feels like if she were driving it. And she looked up at me so sweet and appreciative and said, oh thank you so much, I had wanted to before and then I forgot cuz he was leaning on it and I do so want to see out and check the mirrors etc.
So sometimes it is the little, (obvious to some..not so much to others) things that make a good sales experience. If I were a salesman, I wouldn't dream of not even asking her if she would like the door closed. Maybe I should have been a car saleman. I think I would have made a great one. The one thing that always nagged away at me though about that profession, is that is mostly geared on commission. And if I did well, or quite well, on a sale, then that came right outta the pockets of the person who was entrusting me. I see a sales position like car sales especially, as one of always being engaged in a conflict of interest.