Using your logic and I believe you're in the tax biz, if my son comes in to your office with his W-2, rather than charge him to file his 1040-EZ, you'd tell him to read the simple instructions, file it himself and save your fee. Right? Ha, yeah right.
I have done that a few times this year.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The only place I could think of where dealer should act in customer's interests, is financing. F&I acts as a loan broker, facilitator, which brings higher standards than sales - and unfortunately I do not see dealerships being very aware of that. They see is as another part of maximizing profit machine, which may be questionable at least. I'm not sure what are exact regulations, but some laws and ethics can potentially be broken, if F&I steers clients to one bank knowing that another would offer them better terms.
I agree 110% with that statement. The Finance Office should be (and is where I work. The reason I know is because that is what i do) The biggest reason being is because up to that point it is all just talk. When it gets to the finance office it is where the $$ changes hands, be it through a cash transaction or finance. We run a fully disclosed office with a menu presentation which clearly states the cost of any aftermarket products you may CHOOSE to purchase. In all my years of doing this my actions have seriously been questioned twice where the customer was visibly upset at me. Once was a large mistake on my part and the time I went to court was hilarious. I will give a quick synopsis of both.
A consumer was purchasing a used expedition form us several years ago at the end of a very busy Saturday, we had rolled around 18 units and there are two F&I guys, myself and one other. He had agreed to an OTD price and was financing, he and his wife had been here earlyer and then went to shop our price, he came back alone to do the paper work and I told him his wife can come back later. In our store all of are deals are worked off of difference, your trade in Allowance against list + tax, this was a used car so there were no rebates(I am assuming you all know the difference between allowance and ACV).
I looked at the buyers order and for some reason known only to the Car Gods I put the trade difference difference in as the list price and then put in his $5000 trade allowance in. What I did was give him him credit for his trade twice. He came in signed the paper work (keep in mind he agreed to an OTD price prior to entering my office). We made arrangements for his wife to come in Monday and he left in the new car. Now after he leaves the sales person says, hey I think that deal made about a dime ($1000) can you check for me. I put in my cost figures and show a huge loss, I check my math study the paper work and see my mistake. I called his cell phone within 5 minutes of him leaving explain what happens and he replies "I know, I caught it while in your office but was not going to say any thing, I guess its just tough chit on your part" Conversations pursue, words are exchanged and after two days he was given a choice of us taking an additional $1500 off the price as a good will jester for the havoc I had caused or returning the truck. He bought the truck and after all of that when we were done with the new paper work he looked at me, smiled and said, "Dang I thought I had ya for $5000, but thats OK I still beat ya out of $1500"
The second occurance hilarious, we had sold this man and his wife several cars over the years he came in one day with this women who was not his wife, she was a Phillipino women who he said was there Nanny. he wrote a check to buy her a new Escort wagon. 3 months later his wife came in screaming at me while I had customers in my office about being in cahoots with her husband and her lover, she was screaming and yelling about how I owed her all this money yadda yadda, we had to have her escorted from the building. shortly after that I end up in divorce court testifying as to the fact of weather or not I knew it was a women that he was having an affair with and her lawyer was trying to say that in good conscious we should not have sold the women the car. The judge stopped him about half way through and apologized for wasting my time.
so snake, are you saying that if i walk into best buy, and decide to haggle a bit with them on a TV, that because I was able to finagle a slightly lower price on that TV, that they should now sell it to EVERYONE at that price? I do all the work, and everyone else benefits?
Snake likes to think of car sales as a Care Bear society. We show people list price, but then tell them they shouldn't pay that price. They should pay the price that is much lower. And then those same customers will cut us from that number as well.
I doubt that he'll even respond to you. He gets frustrated and leaves conversations.
and i am being careful not to put words in his mouth...i know he doesn't like that
no business would ever take the bare minimum for their product, just so they don't "rip off" the customer. business is there to make money. period. if you are smart enough to save money through negotiations, good for you. but your work is not going to go towards someone else for nothing. if they walk in saying "ooh i want that one! where do i sign!" you cant realistically expect the salesman to say "oh, you are looking to pay MSRP on that car. well i just sold the last guy who was here for 4 hours that car for invoice. i'll just give you that price too! but you don't have to do any work for it at all! isn't that great?"
see moo, until people have been on the other side of "the desk" they really don't get it. i am sure others have been in commissioned sales...but its just not the same...
So a proper analogy would be if Best Buy is selling TV's at $1800 and someone comes in and says "I will give you $2,000 for it" what do you think best buys reaction be? Will they sell it for $2,000 or $1,800?
Best Buy will sell it for $1800, because that is the advertised price. In the case of a car dealership they will sell it at the advertised price also (MSRP) unless you negotiate a better price. I'm a consumer, not in the trade, and I don't see anything wrong with this.
I find it curious that many of us have this unrealistic expectation that we need to get a huge discount on a vehicle based on our thinking that we somehow "deserve" it. What we deserve should be based on supply and demand. Vehicles that don't sell well should get discounted and ones that sell very well probably don't need to. The problem that comes with this model is that, as some have pointed out, people may be uninformed and expect to get a big discount on a model that is selling well, or don't know enough to get a big discount on models that are not selling well. But in either of those scenarios, it isn't the salesperson's fault. The salesperson needs to sell vehicles to make a living just like any other American. And it despite arguments about dealer's profits, it isn't any of our business what the dealer makes. People probably don't feel that way because they have to reveal that info to the sales people if they are doing a loan, but you can always get a loan from your bank beforehand or save up (or buy down) for the vehicle outright. Either way, the dealership needs to make money to stay in business. Having said that, dealerships could be a lot more successful I think if they were much more forthright and honest about what it is that they sell. For example, even though "disclosure" of freight charges, etc. are required, it should be included in the cost. Don't tell me $24,995 and then add $800 delivery. Also, include many of the little things that make a customer happy and produce good-will such as car-mats, etc. The problem is that so much deception and bad practice has gone on in the industry historically that people still largely feel obligated to not trust what salespeople say. That is why somebody at BestBuy is more willing to pay retail for their TV than a customer is at buying a vehicle. Their tends to be an overall better perception of electronics dealers in the eyes of consumers than car dealers. It is unfortunate, but I also think that has resulted in over-charging as well... ever wonder how an "end of year" blitz can have ads for $10K and $12K off of $40K vehicles? That just cements the thinking that consumers are getting ripped off buying a vehicle at or near MSRP during the rest of the year...
ADM's are used for trade ins in most cases. In today's Auto industry the majority of people trading in a vehicle are "upside-down"; meaning they owe more than the value. For the banks to pick up the loan there has to be a reasonable loan to value ratio. If the vehicle has an MSRP of $25k, and there is a $1000 rebate, the selling price is $24,000(assuming no additional dealer discount). If the customer has $3000 negative equity, then they need a $27,000 loan on a $25,000 vehicle (a LVR of 1.08); by adding the ADM to the retail price the loan to value ratio becomes 1. This usually gives the customer a better Interest rate.
"In today's Auto industry the majority of people trading in a vehicle are "upside-down"; meaning they owe more than the value. For the banks to pick up the loan there has to be a reasonable loan to value ratio."
Oh, please tell me that isn't so! I mean I know there are a ton of such sorts out there but MOST?
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
is no different than if you or I were selling our own car privately.
You have a Coupe Deluxe for which has a "book" value of $8000. But you ask $9000 for it and someone comes in and offers you your full asking price. What are you going to do? Obviously take the money, and not even mention the lower book value.
That's just the basis for buying and selling. A car or any other itme is worth what someone will pay for it. Not what the book says, or what "they're going for" in the paper, but the actual selling price. And if a new car is worth full MSRP to somebody because they see the value in the product then so be it.
Oh, please tell me that isn't so! I mean I know there are a ton of such sorts out there but MOST?
it is so bad that if some one is "just" $3000 hooked we are relieved.
Here is how the vicious cycle works. Joe consumer walks in the dealership today and say I want one of them fancy new 2008 Zorch's, the with the leather, 18" flat screen, pool table and a hot tub. Got to have it. OK Mr customer how much money will you putting down to day other the n the taxes? MONEY DOWN!!! I have never put a quarter down in my life. No problem good credit, bank finances selling price + taxes and tags. Joe just financed a touch over MSRP on the new truck. Joe drives of the lot turns left and loses $3000 in depriciation. So he has had the car 5 minutes and is out of equity approx $5K.
Fast forward 18 months, Joe comes in the door and has to have one of the brand new 2010 Zorchs, sales person says no problem lets pick one out and then get your trade appraised and I will get you an OTD on it. Well the 2010 had a body style change so after appraising his 2008 model we see he owes $6000 more on it then what it s worth, Joe we got to have money down, BS screams joe I have 999 beacon and make $10K a month, I can afford it. Joe is correct, he has great credit and the ability to pay so this time Joe carry's $6000 of neg + the taxes on the new car + the depreciation he is fixing to get hit with when he pulls out and turns left. So now he is $11K hooked.
And the cycle goes on and on until it gets to a point where the bank says I don't care how good he is, we will not take on a 175% LTV
I would guess 70% of the people who finance there cars are out of equity. Just a guess on my part
Could agree more. The biggest problem with suto sales industry is general culture of misrepresentation of real cost to the consumer. If it was just tax and registration, it would not be a problem - everybody with 5th grade education can figure that, if they really want to. The problem are ads or statements with certain price (as YOU PAY) then "forgetting" about all those additional fees (doc etc.), sometimes even deducting manufaturer's freight/delivery (manufacturers are not much better with their "starting price" ads).
THEN it's still not over, as they sometimes say (or write) YOU PAY $15K with $3K down cash or trade. WHAT ?!!? Is that 3 grand coming from some dwarves or Santa Claus? There is really no explanation for that other than crude attempt of deception. And it must be working, cause I see those all the time in newspapers - mostly on non-lux domestic brands, some Japanese as well. I always say if you want X, just tell me - don't claim it's Y* (+z+t+h+m+w) I can take it. Otherwise, it's just an insult to my inteligence.
ads are written like that by some dealers because it brings lots of people in. if you've got one dealer saying "YOU PAY $10000!" (with $10000 trade in or cash down in fine print) and another dealer saying "Our Price $19999 plus tax, reg, doc" on their ad for the same car - most people (who stupidly don't read the fine print) will see $10000 vs. $19999 and go to the sneaky dealer...if they work, people use them...
unfortunate though, because i definitely don't agree with that kind of advertising. but enough people fall for it so they use it...
The biggest problem with suto sales industry is general culture of misrepresentation of real cost to the consumer.
I think the biggest problem with the industry is the fact there is to many of us selling the same product. Why in the world do we need so many dealers? For instance I live in Nashville and within 1 hour of my dealership there at least 12 other Ford Delaerships, all offering the same product for the same price. If we cut that down to two Metro dealers and a few country dealers then the pricing and advertising could be more consistent, you would have only the best sales people on your sales staff because there would no longer be the need to have a body standing out there to shake hands and get keys, and your service department would have the creme of the crop working in it.
Yeah, but then they need to be prepared to be treated with suspicion. It's enough just a few to spoil the bunch. Unfortunately - from my observation I must say it's more than just a few - hence the reputation for being not exactly trustworthy and lack of straightforward approach.
believe me dino, i agree. i think that kind of advertising is pretty stupid. however, if you've got one guy in the area doing that, and attracting all the customers, other dealers cant just stand by and watch the other dealer eat their lunch. its a viscious cycle...
like that old saying goes...one bad apple spoils the whole barrel...never truer than in this case!
Competition usually means lower prices and low margins - good for consumer, not necessarily so for the retailers. However, I understand your premise - when competition gets into cutthroat, a simple survival dictates less-than-honest strategies. I would have to disagree, somewhat - in earlier times there were fewer dealers (think 60s or 70s), yet the service there was far from stellar. Same with airlines. Perhaps in 70s you got a meal, but I could forgo $200 sandwich or even full course dinner. Safety - hmm... were planes in 70s really more safe than today?
No - competition is always better for the consumer. If there is too much of it - some of the retailers will simply go away - out of business. There is no need to regulate that - market will or will not support more dealers. If you have cash to burn and think fifth Ford dealership within 5 mile radius is a great idea - more powere to me :shades:
It may be due to the advertising laws in our state but we never run into allot of the problems folks here on the site complain about. If you have a doc fee then your advertised price must include the doc fee and the disclaimer state sales price includes $XXX doc fee. I have never once had a conversation about D&D charges maybe Ford handles them different I don't know. And I have never seen an add say anything about this car $12000.00 with $10,000 down. Thats just stupid. Like I said maybe it has to do with the rules here.
10 grand down is too obvious. I think those with 2 or 3 thousand down are worse - more devious if you will. They make the price at least somewhat plausible, especially if they advertise MSRP minus incentives level. Local Dodge dealer does just that, I think - they start at MSRP, put some discount, but it's manufacturer's cash, then they put downpayment/trade and then with big YOU PAY.
Snake likes to think of car sales as a Care Bear society.
Nowhere have I ever said or implied that. What I am saying is that there should be a little bit more in the area of ethics than what was said here that started this stuff.
He gets frustrated and leaves conversations.
Gee thats the very first time anyone ever said that about me, most peoples complaints are that I don't drop things fast enough.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Sounds like a poor anology. How about this one, if you go to Best Buy and buy that TV for $2,250 and later find out that they were selling them for $2,000. What would you say? You would most likely think very bad thoughts about the Best Buy.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Actually Best Buy would likely give you the difference back if you asked.
The greatest difference is that this pimply fellow selling you that newst flat panel TV would not look at you first and try to think "Gee, I wonder how much is this guy willing to pay for it?" and then tell you how much it is. The stores change the prices often as the market fluctuates constantly, but they don't do it based on "personal adjustments" made by the sales people or managers - they do it corporatewide or storewide at least - price is pretty much the same for everybody at a given time - of course infrequent adjustments happen, but it's generally exception rather than rule. Most people assume price posted is price really expected.
When buying electronics, even big ticket, the pricing is mostly a game of timing (shelf life of particular model, seasonal adjustments, etc.), applying to all/most customers at the given time, whereas in car retail it is mostly game of personal abilities of both salesperson and customer. In "regular" retail the "winner" got the good price because he/she knew when to buy - in car business the winner got better price than his/her neighbor who bought the same product at the same time.
The rules for getting best price in "normal" retail are much easier to understand, hence there is much less resentment when the price paid is not the lowest. Also post-sale price adjustments are quite common place - I used that a few times on my appliances. This also relieves pressure for those who are afraid they paid "too much". Price comparisons are relatively easy, as models do not vary as much and pricing structure does not have "shelf fee", "storage fee", or "floor plan fee" and when they say the fridge is $999 they don't mean that the integrated freezer is an option for $499. Try to get a real price from car dealers - it is the most kept secret and extraordinary efforts are made to hide it from the consumer.
Putting aside iliterates, wackos, and people who think everything they buy should be free, normal people simply cannot understand rules governing pricing policies in car retail business. And when people can't understand something they turn paranoid and quickly learn to have unreasonable expections, as nobody really know what is possible.
"Joe consumer walks in the dealership today and say I want one of them fancy new 2008 Zorch's, the with the leather, 18" flat screen, pool table and a hot tub."
Pool table and a hot tub? Well, that's another matter entirely! Do you have it in plaid?
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I always see inserts where they'll say 200x fully loaded - YOU PAY just $18,990!! Then you look at the fine print and it goes something like this: 200x : $29,990 Manufacturers rebate: - $3,000 Loyalty rebate*: - $1,000 Military service rebate*: - $1,000 Farm??? (can't remember the exact terminology): - $500 Trade-in: - $2,500 Down-payment: - $3,000 Total YOU PAY: $18,990!!
First off, there has got to be less than 1% of the population that even qualifies for all the rebates: military farmers that have bought the same brand vehicle before.
Secondly, the idea (as mentioned before in this thread) that "YOU PAY" an amount that a) does not include your trade in, and b) does not include your down-payment is flat out misrepresentative of the transaction. I often wonder what loop hole the dealerships legal team has found to be able to make this claim. I certainly don't get that with my house, cable bill, telephone bill, utilities, etc. Maybe those are bad analogies, but I've never seen the language used like that in dealership advertising.
Lastly, I think this type of "deceptive" advertising (note also that the price usually does not cover destination, doc, and other fees) just attracts the wrong kind of consumer. It leads me to think that despite the fact that I would either buy the car outright or with a small monthly payment (i.e. LTV ratio well under 50%) that I'm not the kind of customer that a dealership wants or cares about. That means that those with less than-stellar credit or those that have little math skills or buying capability are the ones that dealerships make the most money off of. Maybe repos are a cash cow for those that get in over their heads. But overall, I just think it is sad that there are few places where somebody that makes an honest living, has great credit, and is willing to buy outright with little hassle is not targeted through any marketing campaigns... I constantly feel like car advertisements in general talk down to the consumer like most of us are a bunch of idiots. At the same time, salespeople need to make their money too, but it would be refreshing for once if prices and vehicles were properly represented. I still consider a "fully loaded" vehicle to be the top of the line trim with EVERYTHING in it, not just a regular model with a/c and power windows and locks... that bugs me too! OK, getting off my rant here, but it had to be said! Comments?
how is my analogy a poor one? i think yours is even less likely and even poorer than mine. bestbuy has the prices on all their stuff right there for all to see. why would you walk in and overpay if the price is right there?
it seems like you think, however, if a dealership sells the car to someone for a certain price under MSRP, it is now immoral to sell the car for more than that to anyone else. if this is the case, then my analogy made perfect sense, and you just didn't want to address it 'cause i was right
Snake, you most certainly imply that you want car sales to be "Care Bear" when you say that you think salespeople should tell the customers what the "best price" is.
First, the customer won't believe you. Second, people have been negotiating since the dawn of time on goods. This is absolutely nothing new. Though I can't vouch for people 3,000 years ago, I bet that they would make as much as they could on each consumer. Why? Because that's the way they make their living. One person can afford to pay more than another. OR another consumer values a product more highly than another.
Saying that a salesperson should tell people what another person paid for a product is not only foolish, but completely ludicrous. We make our money off of gross. Why in God's name would we try and reduce it?
If the world was to operate on Snakes principal that all consumers were to be afforded the same price on every item they buy regardless of the circumstances two things would happen.
1. Places like this would shut down due to the fact they would not be needed. How boring would the prices paid forum be
2007 Datsun XL what did you pay?
$17500
$17500
$17500
$17500
$17500
$17500
$17500
$17500
2. There would always be the guy who would not believe you and still want $100 off, eventually one dealer would cave and give him the extra $100 off and before you know it we are are right back where we started.
it still baffles me how you are "ripping off" some one who paid the price that is stated on a new car window sticker. I just can't grasp that.
Customer: How much?
Dealer: $18500 + tax -rebate
Customer: Isn't that sticker price
Dealer: yes sir
Customer: I really like the car and it is the only pink one with yellow polka dots and the optional Road Warrior Package (mounted machine gun and spiked wheels) I can find, I will take it.
Dealer: Great lets get it ready to go, I need to see your Drivers License, Insurance, Birth Certificate, health Insurance Card, Proof of Citizenship, DNA Sample, on over head pic of your home where the car will be garaged, 18 references and your last 9 years tax returns.
Customer: Oh thats all? Wow allot easier then the last place.
I know it is an exaggeration but how is that a rip off? And if it is why does carmax do the business that they do? Every John and Jane Doe that walk in the door there pays sticker.
CarMax is successful for many different reasons, but they also put steep discounts on vehicles that don't sell. Also, people with families and those that are concerned about privacy don't want strangers coming to their home looking at their vehicle. Lastly, when CarMax gives you a check it is much less likely to "bounce" than with a complete stranger. CarMax is basically taking advantage of the fact that people value more choice, more service, and a sense of more security in their purchase (i.e. inspection and limited warranty). That is a good business and doesn't mean that it is because they won't "deal". Heck, I looked at a new vehicle there (they own a dealership) and the first thing they said was that the price was "non-negotiable" like that was some kind of advantage for me. That in no way benefits me. I told the saleswoman that all that means is that we'll buy somewhere else if their price is lower. They act like there is no alternative. But hey, for some people it is an advantage -- not everyone is comfortable with getting the best price they can.
alternative. But hey, for some people it is an advantage -- not everyone is comfortable with getting the best price they can.
It's not that - some people simply do not believe they can get better price on their own, for various reasons. So their best price happens to be CarMax price.
Putting aside iliterates, wackos, and people who think everything they buy should be free, normal people simply cannot understand rules governing pricing policies in car retail business. And when people can't understand something they turn paranoid and quickly learn to have unreasonable expections, as nobody really know what is possible.
The problem you're having is in trying to apply a business model you understand to one you don't.
Everybody wants the car business to operate just like all the other retail business they're used to - Best Buy, Walmart, Target, whoever. All those places sell exactly the same way, merch is on display, every item has a price tag, prices rarely change, you pay the price posted with little or no variation. I call this a Static Retail Business Model (my term, all rights reserved).
The car business is very different. While there are prices posted on the vehicles (Monroney sticker), it is custom to expect a discount off that price. To complicate matters, most buyers require financing and many have trade in's that need to be combined with the purchase. Not a lot of people finance a TV (my experience says is <20% of customers) and fewer people finance a gallon of milk or a box of Pampers, at least the same way they'd finance a new car.
People cannot understand the rules governing pricing policies because there are none! The business of selling cars cannot be compared to selling TV or underwear. The car business is far more complex. Consumers complain excessively about how unfair the car business is but much of the problem is caused by the same, poorly educated consumers.
Everyone is looking for the magic formula, the golden key to unlocking a great deal on a car. Little do they know it doesn't exist.
Very true, but there is also an important point to make; many car manufacturers make things too complex. The reason why a TV can be priced and compared directly is that it is the exact same model that every store has. In the auto business there are dozens of different options included/excluded from the product which accounts for virtually tens of thousands of variations. The ideal for this industry is to get closer to mass customization (a step up from mass production). Unfortunately all these choices also wreak havoc on simple pricing models for the consumer. Look at brands such as Acura and Lexus; aside from vehicle color, interior options are kept to a minimum -- especially in regard to Acura. There are few options and they occur as packages. Aside from that there is little to argue over in terms of ambiguity in how the vehicle is priced. This is one reason why these luxury/sport brands can command prices closer to MSRP. By making too many options, manufacturers are shooting themselves in the foot. Simply reducing options to a few packages will bring the vehicle's value up closer to the real price. Likewise, the "real" price that is quoted as MSRP will come down a bit to more realistic levels. However, our society values the fact that we're not homogenous and it is expected that our own vehicle will somehow be "unique". So, it is doubtful that this type of business model will make it into mainstream auto manufacturing. Personally, I think that is too bad, but not everyone sees this as a benefit. People still want to save that extra $100 on a $30,000 car. But they wouldn't think it reasonable to ask for $1 off on a $300 TV, because $1 isn't as big a deal to them as $100...
"Customer: I really like the car and it is the only pink one with yellow polka dots and the optional Road Warrior Package (mounted machine gun and spiked wheels) I can find, I will take it."
Very tricky of you to only keep one pink with yellow polka dots one on the lot. No wonder he paid the big money.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
Because it is a different situation. We are talking about one person who is "uneducated" paying more than everyone else not one person who manages to pay less for whatever reason. Therein lies the difference.
if a dealership sells the car to someone for a certain price under MSRP, it is now immoral to sell the car for more than that to anyone else.
No but if your are selling the new Buiyota Benz Sludge mobile LX with option package A to everyone who comes in for $18,000 then one guy comes in and because s/he is "uneducated" you sell it to them for $20,000 it is. That would be shady. at best, if that were just about any other business you would be yelling up a storm about that.
if this is the case,
What you presented isn't the case.
then my analogy made perfect sense
It doesn't.
and you just didn't want to address it 'cause i was right
I addressed it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Snake, you most certainly imply that you want car sales to be "Care Bear" when you say that you think salespeople should tell the customers what the "best price" is.
When did I ever say that the salesperson should tell you what the "best" price is?
All I am saying is if you are selling a car for a certain amount sell it for a certain amount. Don't up the price because someone is supposively "uneducated" and then try to justify doing so.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
All I am saying is if you are selling a car for a certain amount sell it for a certain amount. Don't up the price because someone is supposively "uneducated" and then try to justify doing so.
We don't "Up" the price. The price is on the window.
Ah young Jedi shopper , you are wrong. That would be the Negotiated Price. The "PRICE" of every vehicle in our inventory is clearly displayed along with a list of options and fuel data on new vehicle. On used Vehichles there is the PRICE along with a Federal Buyers Guide. Doing it any other way is against the law.
If we chooses to vary from the posted price and agree on a "negotiated price" that is our decision. It is also at our discretion to at times post "Advertised Prices" on the windows of vehichles that differ from the PRICE, this is at are discretion and advertised prices posted on windows must be honored.
This topic can be debated for eons, with miilions of analogies; here's another one from me:
Not to pick on you Snake, but I guess us car biz guys just trying to prove a point.
If you get hired by a company and they're paying you $25/hour, and soon after you realize that other people working with you doing the same job are getting $18/hour, for whatever reason (maybe they don't have the guts to ask for a raise) what what you do?
Would you go to your boss and tell him you're making too much money and don't deserve it, and ask to have your pay cut down to $18/hour because the guys working with you doing the exact same job are getting paid less?
And you'd be getting $25/hour not because of some mistake, but just because you asked for it, and the other guys didn't.
Noooooo, you'd keep on working for $25/hour.
Same thing in the car business. Sticker (or asking price) is on the window, and that's the price. If you deem the vehicle to be worth that price, and decide to pay it, then no crime has been commited.
If you ask for a discount, and work us a little, then you will save some money.
But I will certainly not volunteer to cut my paycheck for anyone (except family, fiancee, inlaws, friends), just because I feel like being a charitable organization that certain moment.
Comments
I have done that a few times this year.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The Founding Parents apparently were bleeding heart liberals when they empowered Congress to regulate commerce! One must wonder why.
Seriously, let's steer clear of political entanglements here.
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
I agree 110% with that statement. The Finance Office should be (and is where I work. The reason I know is because that is what i do) The biggest reason being is because up to that point it is all just talk. When it gets to the finance office it is where the $$ changes hands, be it through a cash transaction or finance. We run a fully disclosed office with a menu presentation which clearly states the cost of any aftermarket products you may CHOOSE to purchase. In all my years of doing this my actions have seriously been questioned twice where the customer was visibly upset at me. Once was a large mistake on my part and the time I went to court was hilarious. I will give a quick synopsis of both.
A consumer was purchasing a used expedition form us several years ago at the end of a very busy Saturday, we had rolled around 18 units and there are two F&I guys, myself and one other. He had agreed to an OTD price and was financing, he and his wife had been here earlyer and then went to shop our price, he came back alone to do the paper work and I told him his wife can come back later. In our store all of are deals are worked off of difference, your trade in Allowance against list + tax, this was a used car so there were no rebates(I am assuming you all know the difference between allowance and ACV).
I looked at the buyers order and for some reason known only to the Car Gods I put the trade difference difference in as the list price and then put in his $5000 trade allowance in. What I did was give him him credit for his trade twice. He came in signed the paper work (keep in mind he agreed to an OTD price prior to entering my office). We made arrangements for his wife to come in Monday and he left in the new car. Now after he leaves the sales person says, hey I think that deal made about a dime ($1000) can you check for me. I put in my cost figures and show a huge loss, I check my math study the paper work and see my mistake. I called his cell phone within 5 minutes of him leaving explain what happens and he replies "I know, I caught it while in your office but was not going to say any thing, I guess its just tough chit on your part" Conversations pursue, words are exchanged and after two days he was given a choice of us taking an additional $1500 off the price as a good will jester for the havoc I had caused or returning the truck. He bought the truck and after all of that when we were done with the new paper work he looked at me, smiled and said, "Dang I thought I had ya for $5000, but thats OK I still beat ya out of $1500"
The second occurance hilarious, we had sold this man and his wife several cars over the years he came in one day with this women who was not his wife, she was a Phillipino women who he said was there Nanny. he wrote a check to buy her a new Escort wagon. 3 months later his wife came in screaming at me while I had customers in my office about being in cahoots with her husband and her lover, she was screaming and yelling about how I owed her all this money yadda yadda, we had to have her escorted from the building. shortly after that I end up in divorce court testifying as to the fact of weather or not I knew it was a women that he was having an affair with and her lawyer was trying to say that in good conscious we should not have sold the women the car. The judge stopped him about half way through and apologized for wasting my time.
just curious on your take on that?
-thene :confuse:
Any one who has been doing this 15+ years could probably write a book.
Snake likes to think of car sales as a Care Bear society. We show people list price, but then tell them they shouldn't pay that price. They should pay the price that is much lower. And then those same customers will cut us from that number as well.
I doubt that he'll even respond to you. He gets frustrated and leaves conversations.
-Moo
Boy, that husband was really the forgiving type. I would never buy my wife's lover a car.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
no business would ever take the bare minimum for their product, just so they don't "rip off" the customer. business is there to make money. period. if you are smart enough to save money through negotiations, good for you. but your work is not going to go towards someone else for nothing. if they walk in saying "ooh i want that one! where do i sign!" you cant realistically expect the salesman to say "oh, you are looking to pay MSRP on that car. well i just sold the last guy who was here for 4 hours that car for invoice. i'll just give you that price too! but you don't have to do any work for it at all! isn't that great?"
see moo, until people have been on the other side of "the desk" they really don't get it. i am sure others have been in commissioned sales...but its just not the same...
anyways, my two cents...
-thene
Best Buy will sell it for $1800, because that is the advertised price. In the case of a car dealership they will sell it at the advertised price also (MSRP) unless you negotiate a better price. I'm a consumer, not in the trade, and I don't see anything wrong with this.
But in either of those scenarios, it isn't the salesperson's fault. The salesperson needs to sell vehicles to make a living just like any other American. And it despite arguments about dealer's profits, it isn't any of our business what the dealer makes. People probably don't feel that way because they have to reveal that info to the sales people if they are doing a loan, but you can always get a loan from your bank beforehand or save up (or buy down) for the vehicle outright. Either way, the dealership needs to make money to stay in business.
Having said that, dealerships could be a lot more successful I think if they were much more forthright and honest about what it is that they sell. For example, even though "disclosure" of freight charges, etc. are required, it should be included in the cost. Don't tell me $24,995 and then add $800 delivery. Also, include many of the little things that make a customer happy and produce good-will such as car-mats, etc.
The problem is that so much deception and bad practice has gone on in the industry historically that people still largely feel obligated to not trust what salespeople say.
That is why somebody at BestBuy is more willing to pay retail for their TV than a customer is at buying a vehicle. Their tends to be an overall better perception of electronics dealers in the eyes of consumers than car dealers. It is unfortunate, but I also think that has resulted in over-charging as well... ever wonder how an "end of year" blitz can have ads for $10K and $12K off of $40K vehicles? That just cements the thinking that consumers are getting ripped off buying a vehicle at or near MSRP during the rest of the year...
This usually gives the customer a better Interest rate.
That is easy - Factory to dealer incentives to clear old product for new
Oh, please tell me that isn't so! I mean I know there are a ton of such sorts out there but MOST?
You have a Coupe Deluxe for which has a "book" value of $8000. But you ask $9000 for it and someone comes in and offers you your full asking price. What are you going to do? Obviously take the money, and not even mention the lower book value.
That's just the basis for buying and selling. A car or any other itme is worth what someone will pay for it. Not what the book says, or what "they're going for" in the paper, but the actual selling price. And if a new car is worth full MSRP to somebody because they see the value in the product then so be it.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
it is so bad that if some one is "just" $3000 hooked we are relieved.
Here is how the vicious cycle works.
Joe consumer walks in the dealership today and say I want one of them fancy new 2008 Zorch's, the with the leather, 18" flat screen, pool table and a hot tub. Got to have it. OK Mr customer how much money will you putting down to day other the n the taxes? MONEY DOWN!!! I have never put a quarter down in my life. No problem good credit, bank finances selling price + taxes and tags. Joe just financed a touch over MSRP on the new truck. Joe drives of the lot turns left and loses $3000 in depriciation. So he has had the car 5 minutes and is out of equity approx $5K.
Fast forward 18 months, Joe comes in the door and has to have one of the brand new 2010 Zorchs, sales person says no problem lets pick one out and then get your trade appraised and I will get you an OTD on it. Well the 2010 had a body style change so after appraising his 2008 model we see he owes $6000 more on it then what it s worth, Joe we got to have money down, BS screams joe I have 999 beacon and make $10K a month, I can afford it. Joe is correct, he has great credit and the ability to pay so this time Joe carry's $6000 of neg + the taxes on the new car + the depreciation he is fixing to get hit with when he pulls out and turns left. So now he is $11K hooked.
And the cycle goes on and on until it gets to a point where the bank says I don't care how good he is, we will not take on a 175% LTV
I would guess 70% of the people who finance there cars are out of equity. Just a guess on my part
THEN it's still not over, as they sometimes say (or write) YOU PAY $15K with $3K down cash or trade. WHAT ?!!? Is that 3 grand coming from some dwarves or Santa Claus? There is really no explanation for that other than crude attempt of deception. And it must be working, cause I see those all the time in newspapers - mostly on non-lux domestic brands, some Japanese as well. I always say if you want X, just tell me - don't claim it's Y* (+z+t+h+m+w) I can take it. Otherwise, it's just an insult to my inteligence.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
unfortunate though, because i definitely don't agree with that kind of advertising. but enough people fall for it so they use it...
-thene :confuse:
I think the biggest problem with the industry is the fact there is to many of us selling the same product. Why in the world do we need so many dealers? For instance I live in Nashville and within 1 hour of my dealership there at least 12 other Ford Delaerships, all offering the same product for the same price. If we cut that down to two Metro dealers and a few country dealers then the pricing and advertising could be more consistent, you would have only the best sales people on your sales staff because there would no longer be the need to have a body standing out there to shake hands and get keys, and your service department would have the creme of the crop working in it.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
like that old saying goes...one bad apple spoils the whole barrel...never truer than in this case!
-thene
No - competition is always better for the consumer. If there is too much of it - some of the retailers will simply go away - out of business. There is no need to regulate that - market will or will not support more dealers. If you have cash to burn and think fifth Ford dealership within 5 mile radius is a great idea - more powere to me :shades:
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Nowhere have I ever said or implied that. What I am saying is that there should be a little bit more in the area of ethics than what was said here that started this stuff.
He gets frustrated and leaves conversations.
Gee thats the very first time anyone ever said that about me, most peoples complaints are that I don't drop things fast enough.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Sounds like a poor anology. How about this one, if you go to Best Buy and buy that TV for $2,250 and later find out that they were selling them for $2,000. What would you say? You would most likely think very bad thoughts about the Best Buy.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The greatest difference is that this pimply fellow selling you that newst flat panel TV would not look at you first and try to think "Gee, I wonder how much is this guy willing to pay for it?" and then tell you how much it is. The stores change the prices often as the market fluctuates constantly, but they don't do it based on "personal adjustments" made by the sales people or managers - they do it corporatewide or storewide at least - price is pretty much the same for everybody at a given time - of course infrequent adjustments happen, but it's generally exception rather than rule. Most people assume price posted is price really expected.
When buying electronics, even big ticket, the pricing is mostly a game of timing (shelf life of particular model, seasonal adjustments, etc.), applying to all/most customers at the given time, whereas in car retail it is mostly game of personal abilities of both salesperson and customer. In "regular" retail the "winner" got the good price because he/she knew when to buy - in car business the winner got better price than his/her neighbor who bought the same product at the same time.
The rules for getting best price in "normal" retail are much easier to understand, hence there is much less resentment when the price paid is not the lowest. Also post-sale price adjustments are quite common place - I used that a few times on my appliances. This also relieves pressure for those who are afraid they paid "too much". Price comparisons are relatively easy, as models do not vary as much and pricing structure does not have "shelf fee", "storage fee", or "floor plan fee" and when they say the fridge is $999 they don't mean that the integrated freezer is an option for $499. Try to get a real price from car dealers
Putting aside iliterates, wackos, and people who think everything they buy should be free, normal people simply cannot understand rules governing pricing policies in car retail business. And when people can't understand something they turn paranoid and quickly learn to have unreasonable expections, as nobody really know what is possible.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Pool table and a hot tub? Well, that's another matter entirely! Do you have it in plaid?
I'll vouch for that!
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
200x : $29,990
Manufacturers rebate: - $3,000
Loyalty rebate*: - $1,000
Military service rebate*: - $1,000
Farm??? (can't remember the exact terminology): - $500
Trade-in: - $2,500
Down-payment: - $3,000
Total YOU PAY: $18,990!!
First off, there has got to be less than 1% of the population that even qualifies for all the rebates: military farmers that have bought the same brand vehicle before.
Secondly, the idea (as mentioned before in this thread) that "YOU PAY" an amount that a) does not include your trade in, and b) does not include your down-payment is flat out misrepresentative of the transaction. I often wonder what loop hole the dealerships legal team has found to be able to make this claim. I certainly don't get that with my house, cable bill, telephone bill, utilities, etc. Maybe those are bad analogies, but I've never seen the language used like that in dealership advertising.
Lastly, I think this type of "deceptive" advertising (note also that the price usually does not cover destination, doc, and other fees) just attracts the wrong kind of consumer. It leads me to think that despite the fact that I would either buy the car outright or with a small monthly payment (i.e. LTV ratio well under 50%) that I'm not the kind of customer that a dealership wants or cares about. That means that those with less than-stellar credit or those that have little math skills or buying capability are the ones that dealerships make the most money off of. Maybe repos are a cash cow for those that get in over their heads. But overall, I just think it is sad that there are few places where somebody that makes an honest living, has great credit, and is willing to buy outright with little hassle is not targeted through any marketing campaigns... I constantly feel like car advertisements in general talk down to the consumer like most of us are a bunch of idiots.
At the same time, salespeople need to make their money too, but it would be refreshing for once if prices and vehicles were properly represented. I still consider a "fully loaded" vehicle to be the top of the line trim with EVERYTHING in it, not just a regular model with a/c and power windows and locks... that bugs me too!
OK, getting off my rant here, but it had to be said!
Comments?
Ok now would the dealership do that?
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
:shades:
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
it seems like you think, however, if a dealership sells the car to someone for a certain price under MSRP, it is now immoral to sell the car for more than that to anyone else. if this is the case, then my analogy made perfect sense, and you just didn't want to address it 'cause i was right
-thene :P
First, the customer won't believe you. Second, people have been negotiating since the dawn of time on goods. This is absolutely nothing new. Though I can't vouch for people 3,000 years ago, I bet that they would make as much as they could on each consumer. Why? Because that's the way they make their living. One person can afford to pay more than another. OR another consumer values a product more highly than another.
Saying that a salesperson should tell people what another person paid for a product is not only foolish, but completely ludicrous. We make our money off of gross. Why in God's name would we try and reduce it?
-Moo
1. Places like this would shut down due to the fact they would not be needed. How boring would the prices paid forum be
2007 Datsun XL what did you pay?
$17500
$17500
$17500
$17500
$17500
$17500
$17500
$17500
2. There would always be the guy who would not believe you and still want $100 off, eventually one dealer would cave and give him the extra $100 off and before you know it we are are right back where we started.
it still baffles me how you are "ripping off" some one who paid the price that is stated on a new car window sticker. I just can't grasp that.
Customer: How much?
Dealer: $18500 + tax -rebate
Customer: Isn't that sticker price
Dealer: yes sir
Customer: I really like the car and it is the only pink one with yellow polka dots and the optional Road Warrior Package (mounted machine gun and spiked wheels) I can find, I will take it.
Dealer: Great lets get it ready to go, I need to see your Drivers License, Insurance, Birth Certificate, health Insurance Card, Proof of Citizenship, DNA Sample, on over head pic of your home where the car will be garaged, 18 references and your last 9 years tax returns.
Customer: Oh thats all? Wow allot easier then the last place.
I know it is an exaggeration but how is that a rip off? And if it is why does carmax do the business that they do? Every John and Jane Doe that walk in the door there pays sticker.
It's not that - some people simply do not believe they can get better price on their own, for various reasons. So their best price happens to be CarMax price.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
The problem you're having is in trying to apply a business model you understand to one you don't.
Everybody wants the car business to operate just like all the other retail business they're used to - Best Buy, Walmart, Target, whoever. All those places sell exactly the same way, merch is on display, every item has a price tag, prices rarely change, you pay the price posted with little or no variation. I call this a Static Retail Business Model (my term, all rights reserved).
The car business is very different. While there are prices posted on the vehicles (Monroney sticker), it is custom to expect a discount off that price. To complicate matters, most buyers require financing and many have trade in's that need to be combined with the purchase. Not a lot of people finance a TV (my experience says is <20% of customers) and fewer people finance a gallon of milk or a box of Pampers, at least the same way they'd finance a new car.
People cannot understand the rules governing pricing policies because there are none! The business of selling cars cannot be compared to selling TV or underwear. The car business is far more complex. Consumers complain excessively about how unfair the car business is but much of the problem is caused by the same, poorly educated consumers.
Everyone is looking for the magic formula, the golden key to unlocking a great deal on a car. Little do they know it doesn't exist.
Look at brands such as Acura and Lexus; aside from vehicle color, interior options are kept to a minimum -- especially in regard to Acura. There are few options and they occur as packages. Aside from that there is little to argue over in terms of ambiguity in how the vehicle is priced.
This is one reason why these luxury/sport brands can command prices closer to MSRP. By making too many options, manufacturers are shooting themselves in the foot. Simply reducing options to a few packages will bring the vehicle's value up closer to the real price. Likewise, the "real" price that is quoted as MSRP will come down a bit to more realistic levels. However, our society values the fact that we're not homogenous and it is expected that our own vehicle will somehow be "unique". So, it is doubtful that this type of business model will make it into mainstream auto manufacturing. Personally, I think that is too bad, but not everyone sees this as a benefit. People still want to save that extra $100 on a $30,000 car. But they wouldn't think it reasonable to ask for $1 off on a $300 TV, because $1 isn't as big a deal to them as $100...
Very tricky of you to only keep one pink with yellow polka dots one on the lot. No wonder he paid the big money.
Because it is a different situation. We are talking about one person who is "uneducated" paying more than everyone else not one person who manages to pay less for whatever reason. Therein lies the difference.
if a dealership sells the car to someone for a certain price under MSRP, it is now immoral to sell the car for more than that to anyone else.
No but if your are selling the new Buiyota Benz Sludge mobile LX with option package A to everyone who comes in for $18,000 then one guy comes in and because s/he is "uneducated" you sell it to them for $20,000 it is. That would be shady. at best, if that were just about any other business you would be yelling up a storm about that.
if this is the case,
What you presented isn't the case.
then my analogy made perfect sense
It doesn't.
and you just didn't want to address it 'cause i was right
I addressed it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
When did I ever say that the salesperson should tell you what the "best" price is?
All I am saying is if you are selling a car for a certain amount sell it for a certain amount. Don't up the price because someone is supposively "uneducated" and then try to justify doing so.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
We don't "Up" the price. The price is on the window.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Ah young Jedi shopper , you are wrong. That would be the Negotiated Price. The "PRICE" of every vehicle in our inventory is clearly displayed along with a list of options and fuel data on new vehicle. On used Vehichles there is the PRICE along with a Federal Buyers Guide. Doing it any other way is against the law.
If we chooses to vary from the posted price and agree on a "negotiated price" that is our decision. It is also at our discretion to at times post "Advertised Prices" on the windows of vehichles that differ from the PRICE, this is at are discretion and advertised prices posted on windows must be honored.
So as you can see your statement is incorrect
Ah Grasshopper, since you rarely, if ever, sell a car at whats on the sticker it cannot be the price.
and advertised prices posted on windows must be honored.
Legally no.
I state again the price is what the car is sold for. Just look at the sales contract.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Because it is a different situation."
Isn' that why it's an analogy? :confuse:
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Not to pick on you Snake, but I guess us car biz guys just trying to prove a point.
If you get hired by a company and they're paying you $25/hour, and soon after you realize that other people working with you doing the same job are getting $18/hour, for whatever reason (maybe they don't have the guts to ask for a raise) what what you do?
Would you go to your boss and tell him you're making too much money and don't deserve it, and ask to have your pay cut down to $18/hour because the guys working with you doing the exact same job are getting paid less?
And you'd be getting $25/hour not because of some mistake, but just because you asked for it, and the other guys didn't.
Noooooo, you'd keep on working for $25/hour.
Same thing in the car business. Sticker (or asking price) is on the window, and that's the price. If you deem the vehicle to be worth that price, and decide to pay it, then no crime has been commited.
If you ask for a discount, and work us a little, then you will save some money.
But I will certainly not volunteer to cut my paycheck for anyone (except family, fiancee, inlaws, friends), just because I feel like being a charitable organization that certain moment.
Do you see where we're coming from?
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX