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A lot of it has to do with the short-term mentality of many businesses. That salesperson is not likely to stick around long enough to sell you 3 or 4 cars, and so doesn't care if you come back to that dealer or not. The same can be said for the finance guys, the service guys, and even the owner to some extent. It's not true of all dealers or salespeople, but I think it's becoming more and more prevalent.
When I was in retail sales, it never ceased to amaze me how far a smile and a $2 freebie would go to keep people coming back.
For example, if you walked onto a Saturn lot, the sticker price would likely be the same as you'd see on a comparable car on a Chevy lot. At the Saturn dealer, you'd pay sticker. On the Chevy lot, you'd likely get the car for well under. Is the ease of purchase worth it? For some, definitley.
Thats because of guys like you
The reason that sales people disappear so often is because the job is allot harder then people think. The turn over for the most part is huge for the new people, if you can make it 3 years then you will probably be in it for a life time, or until you wise up one of the two.
Here is the structure of allot of dealerships
33% are getting hired and trained
33% are getting fired or quitting
33% are selling the cars
As far as one price stores go, I don't like the idea. An earlier poster said something about a study that showed they were more profitable. All of them with the exception of Carmax have failed miserably in our area. Two Ford stores have tried it (the same store under two different names). The reason it didn't work for them is because they were the only ones doing it. I have said this before, the only way it will work is if all franchises do it and stick to it. For example there are 4 Metro stores here in Nashvegas. If two of us did it and the other two didn't the one price stores would get killed because they would have no flexibility for the guy driving all over town to save $200.
One price stores are also just one step closer to me getting paid strictly salary. That would take all the fun out of this crazy job. It drives my wife crazy not knowing at the beggining of the month if we are going to make $1000 or $7000.
The key to making it in this biz is making sure your wife has a good job
It fits thats all.
you must be one of those people who can never take responsibility for their own actions
Oh I take responsibility for all my actions, I think everyone should. I just find it funny that sales people on these forums claim to be working for the customer then claim its the customers fault if they overpaid. All I want to know is which is it.
Sales people don't want to be known as the bad guy but then proudly proclaim that basically its ok to overcharge someone when they don't have all the knowledge. :sick:
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Now lets say we are there at the same time and buy ABW and the market price is $0.50 a share and they sell it to you and everyone else for that but sell it to me for $1.25 a share because I didn't know what the market price was. alwaysagoodeal and associates will lose their brokerage license, be fined and be subjected to civil recourse for that. That would be illegal.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Now go back under your bridge.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Well ya. What you say makes perfect sense when you omit portions of what I wrote. What I said which you must have just over looked seeing this is a busy time of the year for you is: You pay more for the same stock due to the higher commisions and fees you paid. This was do to the fact that you failed to do the research.
They are... up to the point where numbers get discussed. Then they are working for themselves and their dealership.
Working for the customer means getting the right car, the right options, mileage and help with financing if needed.
Snake, it's a bit unreasonable to think a salesperson is going to just hand someone their rock bottom price.
but then proudly proclaim that basically it's o.k to overcharge someone...
"Overcharge" means to charge someone more than the agreed upon price. That's not happening in the context of this thread.
As someone who's been labeled anti-dealership, it brings me great grief to have to tell you... you're dead wrong on this one snake.
They then present you the figures which they have no control over. Those figures are arrived at by the Desk Manager, or as my sister calls them "The Secret Guy". They are the middle man in negotiations.
From reading the salesmen here is seems that they have some control over how much the customer pays. i.e "oh, the boss will never go for that","We have to make some money on the deal","That's as low as I can go", "We better take this final offer boss, this guy snake isn't going any lower".
How well a salesperson does their job has a lot to do with how much you pay for your car. Sure they don't set the price, but they can influence it.
I'm sure selling cars is a hard job, I worked retail/sales for several years and know just how crazy/rude/strange customers can be. But my point is that the nature of the business has changed.
My grandfather bought a new car every 2 years from the same dealer and same salesman for 20 years. I've never bought the same brand twice, let alone bought from the same dealer since I've moved every two years since high school.
That said, I've been to some amazing dealers and had some great salespeople. Your 33/33/33 split mirrors my experience to the letter. It seems like when I go to buy, I usually end up talking to a few of the #1's and #2's, then end up buying from the #3's.
Good point Jipster they do have a major influnce on how the negotiations flow and to share what the customer is thinking. When I sold I would BS the desk sometimes. If I had been dealing with folks who seem to be nice people and I had enjoyed spending a couple hours with them i would sometimes put there needs before the houses.
For instance if I new you would give $10000.00 difference and that left some for me and the desk was pounding for 10800.00 I would do one of two things. I would either tell the desk they were done at $10K, if we want to sell a car here is our chance, or on a rare occasion I would go sit with a customer and tell them, OK my boss wants $10800, but we are going to sit here and visit for about 10 minutes then I am going back and tell him its $10K or you are walking.
I did that probably 5 times years ago and to this day I still sell just about all of those people and there family cars. Even though I am in F&I those folks won't turn a key on our lot without asking me. The $700 or $800 in gross it cost me a few times has made me $1000's over the years.
The thing about some consumers (and some of you who are reading this are thinking it right now) is that no matter what you do they do not believe you. They think that every car man in the world is out to screw them. I actually feel sorry for people like that. I tell folks all the time that there are people in this business that work real hard every day to give us all a bad name.
True, but dealers can and do play lots of games and pull lots of scams. Some don't, but many do. Maybe not overcharged, more like overpay.
If two identical people go into a dealer, one walks out with a Chevy and pays $500 over invoice and another walks out paying sticker, gets stiffed on their trade in, pays a few percentage points more on financing, and ends up with lots of dealer installed crap they didn't want. I'd say they overpaid.
Not all of those people who overpay are just morons deserving to get taken. For example: first time buyers, the elderly, and recently divorced/widowed women.
I'd like to think most dealers/salespeople are honest. But anyone who thinks they all are is kidding themselves.
Well, the registration was there. Since the temporary one expires tomorrow I;d have hoped do. Why not take the time to call me and tell me instead of me having to extract it. Then they say there's a $29.99 charge and I can't have the registration until I paid for it. I say that's nuts. They get my salesman from three weeks ago and he identified what it was about - the state added a year to the registration. They were just passing on costs. Ignoring why hassle over $30 when the sale has been made but it was fair.
Anyway, to my point. He asks how it's doing. I say I'll be great when I get the "we owes." His face drops -quite visibly. "You don't have those?" Turns out he just passes the paper onto the guys who do the "we owes" and they supposedly take it from there. Except they don't. These guys go home at 4:30 and I work until 5.
Anyway, the salesman is going to check it in the morning (he'll get a call from me to make sure he does, too). For he most part I no longer think there's so much of an ethical problem in this dealership as there is a disorganization problem.
Stay tuned...
I suppose the greenpeas are pretty much told what to give and take. Where as someone who is more experienced, or has a good working relationship with "the desk", would be able to "work" a deal to both parties satisfaction. The quicker a deal is done the sooner you get to move onto the next customer.
I had a furniture/appliance salesmen deal with me in such a manner as you've described in dealing with some of your past customers. He cut me a very good deal... quick and clean on a refrigerator and oven. I've been buying sofas, televisions,camcorders, mattresses,and appliances from this same guy(who is now store manager) for roughly the past 14 years.
Many times to make a deal happen we not only have to work the customers, but also the managers.
So if I get an unpleasant customer I won't try as hard as for someone who's easy to deal with and nice to me.
Some of the things we do is when a customer wants to pay $11000 difference, and the managers insist on $12000, I will go back to the manager's desk and tell them the customer needs to be at $10500. Usually the manager will try to bump me then and go back and ask for $11000. This way I'll have a deal.
Same thing applies to trades. I will try to bump the manager an extra $500 of $1000 even when I don't have to cause sometimes (not all the time), the managers try to low ball us too.
So for us we're not only negotiating with the customers, but also woth the managers.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Say a recently widowed woman of 85 walks in to a car dealer to purchase a car. She's never bought one before, her husband always handled it. She pays MSRP and all the fees. They lowball her tradein and she takes it because she's affraid to sell it herself. They tack a few extra points onto the loan (which they split with the lender). They convince her to buy an extended warranty so she doesn't have to worry about a large repair eating into her fixed income. She gets the rust/fabric/etch/pinstripe. She walks out paying thousands over what a more sophisticated buyer would, and coments about how helpful that nice young salesman was.
If that's ethical, then I guess so are the guys on the street running three-card-monte games. Or telemarketers offering "free" vacations.
Yes my example is an extreme, but at what point did the dealer cross the line?
I had a priest come in to buy a Civic, and we gave him a discount, and I asked him if he wanted to add mudflaps to the vehicle. I told them they're $85. He quickly replied: "$85 each? Ok, I'll take them!" I had to stop him, right there, and told him $85 for all.
I mean in this situation, it comes down to the individual salesperson, and the dealership that picks and chooses what kind of people they hire.
We had sales guys that would sell 12 cars in a week, but get canned because of their attitutde and deceptive ways (telling a customer a used car has a/c when it doesn't, argiung loudly over prices, making promises that they wouldn't keep).
Granted the management does a good job with hiring but once in a while a salesguy like that sneaks through, and it takes a couple of weeks to realize he won't fit in. So he gets canned before the damage is done. And management has to clean up their mess afterwards.
Maybe that's how it is here, but I'm sure there's still many places that would welcome crooks like that with open arms cause they don't ccare about long term business. Fortunately we're not like that.
As for your example of the old pensioner, chances are she wouldn't get approved (too old, pension, etc) and she'd pay cash. If she'd want to buy extended warranty, that's her choice. She might want to pass the car on to her children/grandkids when she passes away so it might benefit them.
The warranty coverage is explained to all the customers and I'm pretty sure she knows what 5 years warranty vs. 7 or 10 year extended warranty means.
If she likes pinstriping, and fabric protection, and so on, then that's her choice as well. I can't see a 85 year old going to Pep Boys and getting a bucket of undercoat and applying it themselves.
And finally if she has a fixed income and she has managed money for 85 (ok, 65 years of her life) she would definetly understand what she can or can't afford. Most pensioners though bring someone knowledgeable with them for car shopping.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
Where does it say that you HAVE to do a deal? Show me one case where somebody was absolutely FORCED to buy a vehicle from a particular dealership!
It is just amazing to me that this is even a point of contention. Heck, I fume over my cable-bill prices, but I can easily cut that off at any time. I still see a lot of whining and complaining about something that is the customer's duty to do beforehand. If they don't do the work, yes, they'll probably end up paying more for the vehicle than if they did.
But some of the comments here are talking like salespeople are sitting at their desks waiting for the next "sucker" to come walking through the door. If you go into a dealership and you don't like the salesperson, just tell them that you don't want to deal with them anymore and you would like to talk to somebody else or go to another dealership if it is really bothersome.
In any case, a dealership has every right to make whatever they can on a vehicle. They are a business and like everyone else on this forum they deserve to make a living. The problem I see here is that, while in theory people agree to this principle, nobody wants to be that "person" that supposedly overpays for the vehicle.
The simple solution? Do some research and get the best deal that you can. You're not going to get absolutely 100% of all the discounts and great deals that you can -- otherwise dealerships would go out of business. But you may get a substantial portion of it. What other business can this be done in? I can't call up my gas & electrical utility and try to "deal" on my rates. I can't do that with groceries, movie tickets, restaurants, etc.
Maybe we should have somebody do an experiment and go to a grocery store and ask to see the invoice prices for everything so that they can get a better deal when they go through the grocery line.
I work hard at my job and enjoy what I do, but if an employer with a contract job asked me what my monthly obligations and expenses are so that we can come to a "reasonable" hourly rate, I would tell him/her where to go! Yet somehow this is perfectly acceptable in the auto industry and people STILL complain. Amazing...
I think for people starting out or that are younger, this can be a real sticking point because every dollar does count and loyalty to a brand/dealership/salesperson, etc. is not important for many reasons. But as one gets older, even though price is still an issue, the "numbers" are not as problematic and things such as convenience, location, trustworthiness, etc. move up the scale in importance and become more a part of the transaction. Those things and many others add some value to the whole deal because, quite frankly, our time is more valuable than saving that last $200 or $300 that we could have had we just looked around more for a couple more days.
I, like many other customers, always want to get the best price on a vehicle possible. But I won't do it at the expense of a long, drawn-out sitting, rude behavior, inconvenient location/operating hours, or poor service. Buying a car isn't just about the initial transaction -- it involves a continuing relationship through the life of the vehicle. Some people get the best deal possible, but pi** off the salesperson, manager, and everyone around them. Then they get nervous about taking the vehicle in or worrying that service will "do something" to the vehicle. In other words they become perennial whiners.
My view -- do some research, go to a good dealership prepared with proper financing, vehicle information, and a reasonable expectation on pricing and make a good deal that benefits everyone (even if that means not getting that last $250 off the price) and work on establishing a new relationship more than worry about strict numbers. In my experience, you get treated much better and even get a few freebies along the way -- these are the people dealerships like to see as repeat buyers. I've even had dealers warn me of potential problems and offer small fixes now to cut the expense of doing a larger fix later -- sometimes with little time/expense to me. Just look at the larger picture and be happy with your purchase!
I still say that there are people who are at a distinct disadvantage and are more likely to be taken advantage of. In my family, my 60 year old mother has never bought a car. If something were to happen to my father, she would be clueless. My grandfather is 89, and also would be ripe for plucking. He's too proud to ask for help or to admit if he doesn't understand something. He's also not as sharp as he used to be. I got taken on my first new car purchase in 95. The got me on a finance scam I didn't figure out till years later.
And I still say that past a certain point, a car purchase turns from making a profit to being exploitive. Take a look at some of the dealers who've been caught by state AG's and the games they were playing, it's a facinating read.
I equate the way dealer pricing works now would be similar to your local power company adding an extra $100 to everyones bill, but taking it of if you notice and complain. Most will complain, but many aren't sharp enough to notice.
I remember crazy "be the first on your block" fees on the PT cruiser, Beetle, and Mustang when they came out. I think the new Shelby's are going for $20K+ over sticker.
why should the dealers take LESS money when they can make more? no business would do that. they charge as much as the market will bear for their services and products.
simple as that.
-thene
great points belias! well said!
-thene
It's the same as a person paying 10 grand for newest plasma TV that later could be had for 5 grand, 3, or even less. If there are pople willing to pay to be first on the block, why not? Same with hot cars that are not so hot later. PT Cruiser, TBird anyone? It's silly for you, it's silly for me to pay such premium for a questionnable at best benefit. But who we are to say? If Joe Schmoe has money and is willing to pay, let them...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I kind of get your point, but its not really the same thing. That $10k is the MSRP of that plasma at the time. Not additional markup added by the seller.
Plus, plasmas (or any tv for that matter) don't typically drop in price as fast as the demand on most "hot" cars out there. So you may be waiting 2 years or more for that TV, but only a few months for that car.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Kohl's is notorious for putting their "regular" price for their household items higher than MSRP and then putting it on year-round "sale" right in line with the competition. Sometimes on their "supersales" they mark it down further, creating an actual saving over list price, but it hardly is $200 on that Dyson vacuum, as claimed.
Having inflated "regular" price helps them create impression of big savings. This is EXACTLY what ADP/ADM car stores do, isn't it? They don't really expect to get those prices (at least not on run-the-mill products) and often are ready to deal below competition price, but buy - could they claim "savings" afterwards or what?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Depends on the car. We are in are second year of the Shelby GT500 and sold all of the ones last year for $10K over and have already pre-sold all of our ones for this year at $10K over.
I don't have a problem in the world with it. Right now they are worth more then that when we sell them. They are bringing well over that across the higher end auction blocks
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I wasn't complaining, I was bragging
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Then why aren't you guys charging more?
It's not typical of a dealer to knowingly loose money.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
It's not typical of a dealer to knowingly loose money.
jmonroe
Pigs get fat Hogs get slautered, there is no reason to get greedy. There is a fine line between bringing what the market will bear and gouging. We are more then happy, as a matter of fact ecstatic with the profit that one sale brings to the table. We got 4 last year and will get the same this year. And that is why all of ours are pre sold with deposits in the bank and one of are competitors still has one on the ground at $20K over. Heck there are dealers charging dealers $10K over.
Another thing we did with them at launch is that customers who have bought here before were given first opportunity. Meaning that if a guy who had done business with us in the past and guy we have never seen before both want the same one we give preference to the prior customer. Once we knew are allotment for the year all prior customers that had expressed an interest were called first and given the opportunity to put a $10K deposit on the car. If there was one left then the first guy on the list of drive ups was given the opportunity.
I seem to remember one of the big 3 saying they were going to crack down on dealers charging over MSRP on new cars in short demand. I though it was Ford when the current mustang was introduced.
I can think of one reason that car makers would like cars to sell over MSRP: it makes them look good in comparison tests. The GT500 looks like a steal when you compare it to the Vettes using MSRP. When you figure in 20K in markup vs getting a Vette at under sticker, it doesn't look like such a great deal.
Now: Get what the market can fairly stand
Next year: Still going strong
Year 3: Let negotiations begin
Year 4: ABC Ford will let me have one for cost
Year 5: Competitor across town has 35 of them with triple net painted on the window less $2500 rebate
With a hot car and people standing in line to get one, I don't think you have to be concerned with greed. The buyers have already expressed an interest and are willing to open their wallets..... WIDE, so why not see how wide and when they say NO, you back off to the point where you can still sell them.
When you only get 4 a year how hard can it be?
If you choose to use this sales strategy please send me 4% commission for everything over the initial 10K mark up and, no, I don't consider this greedy.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Joel, I don't think it is possible to gouge a car buyer because no buyer truly needs the car you are selling. If you set the price too high, they can easily buy another type of car.
If I were a car dealer, I would set the price as high as possible.
Look at the PT Cruiser. The best way to perk up a depressed Chrysler dealer is to say "Do you have any PTs available??"
Now if some one would just finance one so I could make a little money
BTW Bobst, you will have to let me give you .50 cent tour of our new dealership when we get it open in November
My mistake, I thought you had said you lived in Middle Tennessee. Must have confused you with another member
and what .....the rest of us have to pay a buck?
I'm also out of the area (Western PA), also, I can't afford a 100% mark-up but thanks anyway.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
is it 5pm yet? i hate mondays...
-thene :sick:
Green Building
Hope to be in by November. The place we are in now has served us well but it is time to move on.
Aren't auto salesmen the ones who came up with such phrases as "sweep them out the door," cattle (in reference to customers), grinders, etc.? That's really professional. Let alone all the BS they spew just to move a car. I mean, really. You guys act like you're NEVER on the other side of the table. Do your dealerships just give you cars when you need one? If so, sign me up! And with you guys being in the business, I imagine you're the absolute worst customers to have.
Like I said, if you spend 8 to 12 hours of face time with a customer, YES, you deserve some scratch. Whether or not that's worth $1K is a matter of opinion.